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| Who was the better player? |
| Larry Bird |
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35% |
[ 20 ] |
| Lebron James |
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64% |
[ 36 ] |
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| Total Votes : 56 |
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non-player zealot
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 Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: Who was better - Larry Bird or Lebron James? |
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| slavavov wrote: |
The thing I admire most about Bird and Kobe is their mental intangibles. Through sheer force of will and mind over matter, |
One interesting connection Bird and Kobe have is that they suffered nearly identical injuries to the joint in their right pinkies, Kobe while snagging his in Vince Carter's jersey in Pau's first game as a Laker (iirc) and Bird while diving for a ball in the 83 Bucks series that the Celts got swept in, partly because of it. He also had the flu in-series. At any rate, I read an autobiography on Larry called "Drive" maybe about 8 years ago and from memory, I recall that he chose to forego the surgical methods of the time because he felt it wouldn't do any good or could've had a negative effect on his shot. Iirc, Kobe bit that same bullet.
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the association
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| non-player zealot wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | Bird was a way better shooter.....
Lebron is way more athletic. |
It's impossible for me not to recognize that Larry did more with less, same goes for Magic. It's not LeBron's fault he's that physically superior, but one is almost forced to concede that Bird would be incrementally more effective as his athletic ability were incrementally increased. Bron is a smart player, but I don't have him on the Magic, Mike, Larry level in that regard. I think the mental game Bird played is something that can be used to distinguish the two. Bron has gotten much better in that aspect over the years, I'll admit. He's probably at the junction of his physical and mental (via experience) peaks. |
I think the idea of holding it against a guy that he's more physically gifted or less injury-prone than another player is an unreasonable argument from the jump. But even if that point was conceded, isn't it then logical to also consider supporting casts? Bird played basically his entire career with 2 - 3 Hall of Famers surrounding him, along with an array of very, very competent role players rounding out the Celtics roster. LeBron played his first seven years with a menagerie of players, all of whom would need the following link to gain entry into the Hall of Fame ...
http://www.hoophall.com/plan-your-experience/admission/hours//
You can make the argument that he had two Hall of Famers in Miami during his four seasons there, and that he possibly has two on their way right now in Cleveland over the past two seasons ... but he's been to the Finals every single year during that six year run, losing just once (2011) when his team was favored to win and racking up three Finals MVPs in the process - against all three of the Western Conference titans of that six year period.
Bird was amazing for almost a dozen seasons, and I couldn't possibly imagine hating a player as much as I hated him as a Lakers fan in the 1980s. That said, he was unreal. Points, boards, assists, underrated (crafty) defense ... he did it all. And even giving him this proper due, LeBron's passed him by in the past few years. It's a convenient time to compare the two, considering the shared position and the number of completed seasons both have under their belts at this point. But LeBron's ahead and he's only adding to his legacy. Bird's still in that 8 - 12 range, and LeBron's got him in the rearview mirror, IMO. |
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Goldenwest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| I'll take Birds leadership and drive for perfection over Lebron's game. Plus Bird took down bigger fish in the finals (Showtime Lakers) than Lebron did (2016 Warriors) |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| non-player zealot wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | Bird was a way better shooter.....
Lebron is way more athletic. |
It's impossible for me not to recognize that Larry did more with less, same goes for Magic. It's not LeBron's fault he's that physically superior, but one is almost forced to concede that Bird would be incrementally more effective as his athletic ability were incrementally increased. Bron is a smart player, but I don't have him on the Magic, Mike, Larry level in that regard. I think the mental game Bird played is something that can be used to distinguish the two. Bron has gotten much better in that aspect over the years, I'll admit. He's probably at the junction of his physical and mental (via experience) peaks. |
Lets make this really simplistic. Player X scores a basket because he has greater basketball smarts. Player Z scores a basket because he has more athletic ability.
I don't see why Player X is supposed to be better if they accomplished the same thing.
Don't see why you discount an athlete's accomplishment because he has athletic ability. |
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Wino
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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You know, to this day the people who will argue that someone who went to the finals 5 times and won 3 is better than someone who went 7 times and won 3. This BS all started with Jordan and it is complete and utter BS. Beyond that is is a feeble argument.
If you are going off of percentage of finals won vs lost, then you have to count all the times they didn't even get to the finals too.
Wins - Finals Appearance - No Finals
So Bird was 3-5-8
Lebron is 3-7-6
Any way you slice that, Lebron has had the better career to this point and still has time to go.
That being said, Bird was probably the second best player of his generation.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Goldenwest wrote: | | I'll take Birds leadership and drive for perfection over Lebron's game. Plus Bird took down bigger fish in the finals (Showtime Lakers) than Lebron did (2016 Warriors) |
The '84 Lakers (one of the lowest points in Magic's career, of course), along with the '81 and '86 Rockets teams, were not collectively on par with (much less better than) the 2012 Thunder, the 2013 Spurs and the 2016 Warriors. You can neglect to factor into the discussion the fact that Bird faced his opponents with HCA all three times (vs. the fact that LeBron won without HCA twice) and the fact that Bird benefitted from an arguably better supporting cast ... but the '84 Lakers team was a lowlight for this franchise during those otherwise halcyon days, not the Showtime Lakers that many of us recall so fondly.
As for leadership ... after what transpired a little over three months ago ... I don't think anyone's squeezing LeBron out of the discussion re: greatest NBA leaders of all time. He just has too many exceptional performances in pivotal games to offset the duds (i.e., the entire 2011 NBA Finals). Game 5 vs. Detroit, Game 5 vs. Indiana, Game 6 vs. Boston, Game 7 vs. San Antonio, Games 5 - 7 vs. Golden State. There are others, to be sure, but those seven games are probably all in the Top 50 postseason games ever posted ... by any player, in NBA history. And at least three or four of them are Top 10, esp. when the context of the performances is fully taken into account. So no, LeBron's leadership and drive for perfection don't take any backseat to Bird's ... |
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Vancouver Fan
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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Funny how the same cats come to defend Lebron every single time. We get it, you love the gawd.
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Wino
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| Vancouver Fan wrote: | | Funny how the same cats come to defend Lebron every single time. We get it, you love the gawd. |
This is kind of BS too. Frankly I have really hated him over the years, but at some point you gotta admit that the man has had a very very successful career. To deny is to discredit yourself.
Would I rather have him over Kobe, Magic, Jordan or Kareem?? Not likely but he is probably a top 10 player of all time and in the end he will have the credentials to make his naysayers eat coal.
This site is actually one of the worst at accepting and understanding talent from other teams. Very little acceptance of other talent here.
Lebron is arguably a bit of a douche bag, I get all that, but if the Lakers had a shot at signing him, I would want them to jump all over that, unless he is on his last legs.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| Vancouver Fan wrote: | | Funny how the same cats come to defend Lebron every single time. We get it, you love the gawd. |
Says the individual who consistently takes the anti-LeBron stance, but somehow cannot summon the resources to comprehend why others (whose shared view mirrors the broader consensus, incidentally) might participate in a public poll and refute the evergreen (and sometimes inadvertent) misstatements of fact that pass for a take around here ... you're certainly not the only one who plays this trolling game, but all of you share the same mark.
Meanwhile, the only "loving" that occurs in this community is the unhealthy sacred cow worship that apparently passes for being a "real Lakers fan" in the mind of those who view these kinds of discussions through a very predictable lens. Let's get real for a minute ... this isn't about LeBron vs. Bird in your mind anyway. This hits much closer to home for you. That said, if the subject-matter experts ALL agree with one view and someone opines in reflecting that view, there's nothing unusual there. No apologies for hurting your feelings in being part of the voice that consistently bursts this bubble you're desperately clutching onto ...
So now I'll take a turn ... we get it; you love a guy whom isn't given the due you think he deserves. And the way you cope is by relentlessly pinning or projecting your obsession onto others who express opinions that threaten to further unravel your belief system. Well, buck up ... that's life. Throw-away, drive-by comments that are only meant to undermine the credibility of someone else without any effort to refute what they've said are the very worst of this community ... |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:23 am Post subject: |
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Hated Bird with a passion in the 1980s, but have grown to deeply respect him (i.e. hate the team, not the player  ).
That being said, I'm going to have to go with LeBron on this. But it's close.
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Vancouver Fan
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| Wino wrote: | | Vancouver Fan wrote: | | Funny how the same cats come to defend Lebron every single time. We get it, you love the gawd. |
This is kind of BS too. Frankly I have really hated him over the years, but at some point you gotta admit that the man has had a very very successful career. To deny is to discredit yourself.
Would I rather have him over Kobe, Magic, Jordan or Kareem?? Not likely but he is probably a top 10 player of all time and in the end he will have the credentials to make his naysayers eat coal.
This site is actually one of the worst at accepting and understanding talent from other teams. Very little acceptance of other talent here.
Lebron is arguably a bit of a douche bag, I get all that, but if the Lakers had a shot at signing him, I would want them to jump all over that, unless he is on his last legs. |
I've never denied his skill or him being an all time great or him being arguably the best player of his generation. Imo, I acknowledge and recognize he's a better player than Larry legend. I voted for Lebron in this poll. However, with saying that, being a Laker fan and all, (bleep) Lebron.
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City_Dawg
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| Vancouver Fan wrote: | | However, with saying that, being a Laker fan and all, (bleep) Lebron. |
I forgot to add this to my post.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| Vancouver Fan wrote: | | Funny how the same cats come to defend Lebron every single time. We get it, you love the gawd. |
Personally, I never look at these discussions as defending or attacking a particular player.
For me it's about defending or attacking the reasoning for an opinion. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| Vancouver Fan wrote: | | Wino wrote: | | Vancouver Fan wrote: | | Funny how the same cats come to defend Lebron every single time. We get it, you love the gawd. |
This is kind of BS too. Frankly I have really hated him over the years, but at some point you gotta admit that the man has had a very very successful career. To deny is to discredit yourself.
Would I rather have him over Kobe, Magic, Jordan or Kareem?? Not likely but he is probably a top 10 player of all time and in the end he will have the credentials to make his naysayers eat coal.
This site is actually one of the worst at accepting and understanding talent from other teams. Very little acceptance of other talent here.
Lebron is arguably a bit of a douche bag, I get all that, but if the Lakers had a shot at signing him, I would want them to jump all over that, unless he is on his last legs. |
I've never denied his skill or him being an all time great or him being arguably the best player of his generation. Imo, I acknowledge and recognize he's a better player than Larry legend. I voted for Lebron in this poll. However, with saying that, being a Laker fan and all, (bleep) Lebron. |
That makes little sense, the Lakers and Cavs have never been rivals.
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Dave20
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Bird is better than any player in this era and it isn't close. The guy avg 26 pts, 10 rebs, 6 ast, 2 stls, on efficient shooting with good defense in his prime. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| Larry Bird could put up all the stats LeBron could while being a better shooter. He wasn't as athletic as LeBron was or as fast but that didn't make him a lesser player and if you'd ever watched any of Larry's games before his back started to become a problem, he was a monster on both ends AND could shoot the daylights out while being a triple double threat. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Dave20 wrote: | | Bird is better than any player in this era and it isn't close. The guy avg 26 pts, 10 rebs, 6 ast, 2 stls, on efficient shooting with good defense in his prime. |
Isn't close? Come on.
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LakersChamps04
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| lol old timers in here |
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governator
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| Dave20 wrote: | | Bird is better than any player in this era and it isn't close. The guy avg 26 pts, 10 rebs, 6 ast, 2 stls, on efficient shooting with good defense in his prime. |
No player in this era even close to Bird?
Shaq? Duncan? Kobe? The man in question, LeBron? Clarkson? |
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slavavov
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| the association wrote: | | non-player zealot wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | Bird was a way better shooter.....
Lebron is way more athletic. |
It's impossible for me not to recognize that Larry did more with less, same goes for Magic. It's not LeBron's fault he's that physically superior, but one is almost forced to concede that Bird would be incrementally more effective as his athletic ability were incrementally increased. Bron is a smart player, but I don't have him on the Magic, Mike, Larry level in that regard. I think the mental game Bird played is something that can be used to distinguish the two. Bron has gotten much better in that aspect over the years, I'll admit. He's probably at the junction of his physical and mental (via experience) peaks. |
I think the idea of holding it against a guy that he's more physically gifted or less injury-prone than another player is an unreasonable argument from the jump. But even if that point was conceded, isn't it then logical to also consider supporting casts? Bird played basically his entire career with 2 - 3 Hall of Famers surrounding him, along with an array of very, very competent role players rounding out the Celtics roster. LeBron played his first seven years with a menagerie of players, all of whom would need the following link to gain entry into the Hall of Fame ...
http://www.hoophall.com/plan-your-experience/admission/hours//
You can make the argument that he had two Hall of Famers in Miami during his four seasons there, and that he possibly has two on their way right now in Cleveland over the past two seasons ... but he's been to the Finals every single year during that six year run, losing just once (2011) when his team was favored to win and racking up three Finals MVPs in the process - against all three of the Western Conference titans of that six year period. |
That's a good point, but if you want to keep putting things in perspective, remember that the East was real tough in the 80s. The Celtics had a rivalry with the 76ers, and they lost a couple times to them in the ECF. Milwaukee was a really good team, and if I'm not mistaken they beat Boston once. Later in that decade Detroit was an extremely tough matchup for them.
On the other hand, once Lebron went to Miami the east got kinda weak. Boston traded Perkins that year, and immediately went down the drain. Rose got hurt in the first game of the 2012 playoffs, and Chicago immediately went down the drain. Seems like Bird's Celtics reaching 4 straight finals was more impressive than Lebron reaching 6 straight finals.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: | | the association wrote: | | non-player zealot wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | Bird was a way better shooter.....
Lebron is way more athletic. |
It's impossible for me not to recognize that Larry did more with less, same goes for Magic. It's not LeBron's fault he's that physically superior, but one is almost forced to concede that Bird would be incrementally more effective as his athletic ability were incrementally increased. Bron is a smart player, but I don't have him on the Magic, Mike, Larry level in that regard. I think the mental game Bird played is something that can be used to distinguish the two. Bron has gotten much better in that aspect over the years, I'll admit. He's probably at the junction of his physical and mental (via experience) peaks. |
I think the idea of holding it against a guy that he's more physically gifted or less injury-prone than another player is an unreasonable argument from the jump. But even if that point was conceded, isn't it then logical to also consider supporting casts? Bird played basically his entire career with 2 - 3 Hall of Famers surrounding him, along with an array of very, very competent role players rounding out the Celtics roster. LeBron played his first seven years with a menagerie of players, all of whom would need the following link to gain entry into the Hall of Fame ...
http://www.hoophall.com/plan-your-experience/admission/hours//
You can make the argument that he had two Hall of Famers in Miami during his four seasons there, and that he possibly has two on their way right now in Cleveland over the past two seasons ... but he's been to the Finals every single year during that six year run, losing just once (2011) when his team was favored to win and racking up three Finals MVPs in the process - against all three of the Western Conference titans of that six year period. |
That's a good point, but if you want to keep putting things in perspective, remember that the East was real tough in the 80s. The Celtics had a rivalry with the 76ers, and they lost a couple times to them in the ECF. Milwaukee was a really good team, and if I'm not mistaken they beat Boston once. Later in that decade Detroit was an extremely tough matchup for them.
On the other hand, once Lebron went to Miami the east got kinda weak. Boston traded Perkins that year, and immediately went down the drain. Rose got hurt in the first game of the 2012 playoffs, and Chicago immediately went down the drain. Seems like Bird's Celtics reaching 4 straight finals was more impressive than Lebron reaching 6 straight finals. |
What you're talking about is one of the hardest things to analyze -- what was the level of opponents, and what was the level of the player's teammates. I've never seen anyone do a particularly good job of it. You think Boston "immediately went down the drain" but they were actually the #1 defensive team in the entire league when Miami went through them in the conference finals.
Bird played on a stacked team, but he went up against some other stacked teams.
I'm not sure if Birds making the finals 4 straight years is more or less impressive than Lebron making it 6 straight. It's an interesting discussion topic, but probably not a factor I'd make a big deal of in comparing them. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | Dave20 wrote: | | Bird is better than any player in this era and it isn't close. The guy avg 26 pts, 10 rebs, 6 ast, 2 stls, on efficient shooting with good defense in his prime. |
No player in this era even close to Bird?
Shaq? Duncan? Kobe? The man in question, LeBron? Clarkson? |
Clarkson? Of course.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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True, people holding Lebron and his "stacked" teams forget that Bird played with multiple HOFers too.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave20 wrote: | | Bird is better than any player in this era and it isn't close. The guy avg 26 pts, 10 rebs, 6 ast, 2 stls, on efficient shooting with good defense in his prime. |
So you're using Bird from 85-86. Let's compare that to Lebron from 12-13.
Bird: 26 pts, 10 rebs, 7 ast, 2 stls, 1 block, 50% from the field, 42% from 3-point line.
Lebron: 27 pts, 8 rebs, 7 ast, 2 stls, 1 block, 57% from the field, 41% from 3-point line.
Both were regular season and finals MVPs. Lebron was 1st all-d; Bird won no defensive honors.
In what way is this not close?
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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bird is basically better in almost everything except lebron jumps higher and hasbigger muscles. bird was closer to magic level passing than lebron (much closer than a lot of players that come to mind).
bird played on a stacked team, but he didn't ditch them everytime it got bad like lebron. yes lebron plays on stacked teams also....but only lebron ditches one stacked team for another as soon as it gets tough. there's lebron for you. not the same as larry or magic or anyone else frankly that has played on stacked teams.
lebron cant shoot like bird, not even close. lebron has no mental trash talk game like bird.
lebron is one of the weakest offensive players that is considered in the goat category. obviously i don't even think he belongs in the discussion. his lack of offensive skill and overall average gameplay stands out so much amongst the other guys. it's like "hey! i get a lot of points too! what about all my rebounds and assists?" well, it's just not enough. you can rack them up all you want, but at this point, it's clear he's just after the numbers game. guys like larry were wizards on the court.
to this day, larry is still one of the best 3pt shooters, not adjusting for any kind of 3pt inflation, which would only tilt the scale far more towards larry. meaning, even if you took today's best 3pt shooters like curry and stacked them up vs larry, larry may still come out on top, and when you factor in the rest of their games, most of these guys would get destroyed.
lebron...what is he the best at? 3pt? no...2pt? no... passing? no... rebounding?...no, chase down blocks? maybe... which of all the options is the least impressive...chase down block is literally something anyone can be good at if they jump high and practice it for one week. not impressive. being the best shooter in the nba...lifetime of constant practice. |
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