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| Who was the better player? |
| Larry Bird |
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35% |
[ 20 ] |
| Lebron James |
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64% |
[ 36 ] |
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| Total Votes : 56 |
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SuperboyReformed
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Joined: 07 Oct 2012
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 Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Dave20 wrote: | | Bird is better than any player in this era and it isn't close. The guy avg 26 pts, 10 rebs, 6 ast, 2 stls, on efficient shooting with good defense in his prime. |
So you're using Bird from 85-86. Let's compare that to Lebron from 12-13.
Bird: 26 pts, 10 rebs, 7 ast, 2 stls, 1 block, 50% from the field, 42% from 3-point line.
Lebron: 27 pts, 8 rebs, 7 ast, 2 stls, 1 block, 57% from the field, 41% from 3-point line.
Both were regular season and finals MVPs. Lebron was 1st all-d; Bird won no defensive honors.
In what way is this not close? |
are you saying that because the numbers are close, the two of them are in fact similar players? are you saying lebron is as good a 3pt shooter as larry? because these are the questions. i don't think the question is who has better numbers, but i may be wrong. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Dave20 wrote: | | Bird is better than any player in this era and it isn't close. The guy avg 26 pts, 10 rebs, 6 ast, 2 stls, on efficient shooting with good defense in his prime. |
So you're using Bird from 85-86. Let's compare that to Lebron from 12-13.
Bird: 26 pts, 10 rebs, 7 ast, 2 stls, 1 block, 50% from the field, 42% from 3-point line.
Lebron: 27 pts, 8 rebs, 7 ast, 2 stls, 1 block, 57% from the field, 41% from 3-point line.
Both were regular season and finals MVPs. Lebron was 1st all-d; Bird won no defensive honors.
In what way is this not close? |
are you saying that because the numbers are close, the two of them are in fact similar players? are you saying lebron is as good a 3pt shooter as larry? because these are the questions. i don't think the question is who has better numbers, but i may be wrong. |
The OP said that Lebron and Bird weren't close, and his support of that statement was posting numbers from what he considered Bird's best year.
I was merely pointing out that his numbers didn't support his theory, because Lebron's numbers were virtually identical to Birds.
So I wasn't making a case for Bird or Lebron; I was merely saying that the OP was making a very poor argument in support of his case.
As for my opinion, I think Bird is a far superior shooter to Lebron (I think Bird is the best shooter among all the GOAT short-list guys). I think you can reasonable argue which of them is better in pretty much every other aspect, though. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Dave20 wrote: | | Bird is better than any player in this era and it isn't close. The guy avg 26 pts, 10 rebs, 6 ast, 2 stls, on efficient shooting with good defense in his prime. |
So you're using Bird from 85-86. Let's compare that to Lebron from 12-13.
Bird: 26 pts, 10 rebs, 7 ast, 2 stls, 1 block, 50% from the field, 42% from 3-point line.
Lebron: 27 pts, 8 rebs, 7 ast, 2 stls, 1 block, 57% from the field, 41% from 3-point line.
Both were regular season and finals MVPs. Lebron was 1st all-d; Bird won no defensive honors.
In what way is this not close? |
are you saying that because the numbers are close, the two of them are in fact similar players? are you saying lebron is as good a 3pt shooter as larry? because these are the questions. i don't think the question is who has better numbers, but i may be wrong. |
Cheering for a Celtic? On a Lakers forum? 
#superboyreformed
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jonnybravo
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Vancouver Fan wrote: | | City_Dawg wrote: | | Even an admitted LeBron hater like me knows LeBron is better. |
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Wino
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Posts: 9674
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Vancouver Fan wrote: | | Wino wrote: | | Vancouver Fan wrote: | | Funny how the same cats come to defend Lebron every single time. We get it, you love the gawd. |
This is kind of BS too. Frankly I have really hated him over the years, but at some point you gotta admit that the man has had a very very successful career. To deny is to discredit yourself.
Would I rather have him over Kobe, Magic, Jordan or Kareem?? Not likely but he is probably a top 10 player of all time and in the end he will have the credentials to make his naysayers eat coal.
This site is actually one of the worst at accepting and understanding talent from other teams. Very little acceptance of other talent here.
Lebron is arguably a bit of a douche bag, I get all that, but if the Lakers had a shot at signing him, I would want them to jump all over that, unless he is on his last legs. |
I've never denied his skill or him being an all time great or him being arguably the best player of his generation. Imo, I acknowledge and recognize he's a better player than Larry legend. I voted for Lebron in this poll. However, with saying that, being a Laker fan and all, (bleep) Lebron. |
That makes little sense, the Lakers and Cavs have never been rivals. |
To me, where I dislike Lebron is where he felt entitled to being the best before he earned it. Kobe never talked about being the best, it was everyone else who talked about it. When he was cornered and asked about it, he would deflect and say it wasn't his to worry about. He would say that he strived to be the best that he could be and prove himself as one of the best. But he never actually said he was the best. Lebron has been saying that about himself since day 1.
He has NEVER been a humble guy, and while I don't mind anyone having extreme confidence, I have never liked braggers who don't have the current credentials to back it up.
I think this is where Laker fans have grown to hate Lebron. He is just a bit of a douche bag and we all know it.
We have seen better, we have seen Magic, Kareem, Worthy and Kobe who where all less douchey than Lebron. They never ran around talking about being the best of all time, blah blah blah.
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Dave20 wrote: | | Bird is better than any player in this era and it isn't close. The guy avg 26 pts, 10 rebs, 6 ast, 2 stls, on efficient shooting with good defense in his prime. |
So you're using Bird from 85-86. Let's compare that to Lebron from 12-13.
Bird: 26 pts, 10 rebs, 7 ast, 2 stls, 1 block, 50% from the field, 42% from 3-point line.
Lebron: 27 pts, 8 rebs, 7 ast, 2 stls, 1 block, 57% from the field, 41% from 3-point line.
Both were regular season and finals MVPs. Lebron was 1st all-d; Bird won no defensive honors.
In what way is this not close? |
are you saying that because the numbers are close, the two of them are in fact similar players? are you saying lebron is as good a 3pt shooter as larry? because these are the questions. i don't think the question is who has better numbers, but i may be wrong. |
Cheering for a Celtic? On a Lakers forum?
#superboyreformed |
you are really reaching here. you are way too pro lebron and other things to try to pull this off. |
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Wino wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Vancouver Fan wrote: | | Wino wrote: | | Vancouver Fan wrote: | | Funny how the same cats come to defend Lebron every single time. We get it, you love the gawd. |
This is kind of BS too. Frankly I have really hated him over the years, but at some point you gotta admit that the man has had a very very successful career. To deny is to discredit yourself.
Would I rather have him over Kobe, Magic, Jordan or Kareem?? Not likely but he is probably a top 10 player of all time and in the end he will have the credentials to make his naysayers eat coal.
This site is actually one of the worst at accepting and understanding talent from other teams. Very little acceptance of other talent here.
Lebron is arguably a bit of a douche bag, I get all that, but if the Lakers had a shot at signing him, I would want them to jump all over that, unless he is on his last legs. |
I've never denied his skill or him being an all time great or him being arguably the best player of his generation. Imo, I acknowledge and recognize he's a better player than Larry legend. I voted for Lebron in this poll. However, with saying that, being a Laker fan and all, (bleep) Lebron. |
That makes little sense, the Lakers and Cavs have never been rivals. |
To me, where I dislike Lebron is where he felt entitled to being the best before he earned it. Kobe never talked about being the best, it was everyone else who talked about it. When he was cornered and asked about it, he would deflect and say it wasn't his to worry about. He would say that he strived to be the best that he could be and prove himself as one of the best. But he never actually said he was the best. Lebron has been saying that about himself since day 1.
He has NEVER been a humble guy, and while I don't mind anyone having extreme confidence, I have never liked braggers who don't have the current credentials to back it up.
I think this is where Laker fans have grown to hate Lebron. He is just a bit of a douche bag and we all know it.
We have seen better, we have seen Magic, Kareem, Worthy and Kobe who where all less douchey than Lebron. They never ran around talking about being the best of all time, blah blah blah. |
yes, he is douchy. even that, i would let go if he were ACTUALLY the best like people say. larry shot as well as today's players during a time when things like 3pters just started. so he was way ahead of his time. he would tell opponents where he would shoot game winners, and then go do it. can you imagine lebron doing that? if he did that, he would either brick the shot or just turn it over. he can't do stuff like that.
and just swap their stories to see how ridiculous it is. imagine if bird hopped from one team to another and teamed up with guys like magic and hakeem or something. and to actually score over double teams and such.
lebron has to behave the way he does. he can't let his game do the talking, because there's nothing "goat" about his game. the reason the other guys don't have to say anything is that they go play and their performance stands out. lebron's does not. his own teammates usually are playing better than him. so he has to make a lot of noise for people to focus on him. his whole career is basically a marketing gimmick. |
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activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Wino wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Vancouver Fan wrote: | | Wino wrote: | | Vancouver Fan wrote: | | Funny how the same cats come to defend Lebron every single time. We get it, you love the gawd. |
This is kind of BS too. Frankly I have really hated him over the years, but at some point you gotta admit that the man has had a very very successful career. To deny is to discredit yourself.
Would I rather have him over Kobe, Magic, Jordan or Kareem?? Not likely but he is probably a top 10 player of all time and in the end he will have the credentials to make his naysayers eat coal.
This site is actually one of the worst at accepting and understanding talent from other teams. Very little acceptance of other talent here.
Lebron is arguably a bit of a douche bag, I get all that, but if the Lakers had a shot at signing him, I would want them to jump all over that, unless he is on his last legs. |
I've never denied his skill or him being an all time great or him being arguably the best player of his generation. Imo, I acknowledge and recognize he's a better player than Larry legend. I voted for Lebron in this poll. However, with saying that, being a Laker fan and all, (bleep) Lebron. |
That makes little sense, the Lakers and Cavs have never been rivals. |
To me, where I dislike Lebron is where he felt entitled to being the best before he earned it. Kobe never talked about being the best, it was everyone else who talked about it. When he was cornered and asked about it, he would deflect and say it wasn't his to worry about. He would say that he strived to be the best that he could be and prove himself as one of the best. But he never actually said he was the best. Lebron has been saying that about himself since day 1.
He has NEVER been a humble guy, and while I don't mind anyone having extreme confidence, I have never liked braggers who don't have the current credentials to back it up.
I think this is where Laker fans have grown to hate Lebron. He is just a bit of a douche bag and we all know it.
We have seen better, we have seen Magic, Kareem, Worthy and Kobe who where all less douchey than Lebron. They never ran around talking about being the best of all time, blah blah blah. |
A lot of people dislike Lebron for his arrogance, especially since the Decision.
Lakers fans have longed seemed to have a disproportionate dislike of him more so than fans of other teams, probably for a couple of reasons:
-- Some Kobe fans believe Lebron has received praise and honors that their guy didn't get, and they dislike that Lebron took over Kobe's mantle as the best player in the league. That has only intensify with a large number of NBA fans believing that Lebron has passed Kobe on the all-time greats list.
--Lebron's rise and championship success came in parallel to our great decline, so there's probably some jealously/anger that he represented what we used to be. |
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defense
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| City_Dawg wrote: | | Even an admitted LeBron hater like me knows LeBron is better. |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: |
and just swap their stories to see how ridiculous it is. imagine if bird hopped from one team to another and teamed up with guys like magic and hakeem or something. and to actually score over double teams and such |
LeBron has never had one teammate that should be compared to Magic or Hakeem. |
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: |
and just swap their stories to see how ridiculous it is. imagine if bird hopped from one team to another and teamed up with guys like magic and hakeem or something. and to actually score over double teams and such |
LeBron has never had one teammate that should be compared to Magic or Hakeem. |
why? because they are gods and legends? if we're going to talk about lebron being a goat, then these are the people he will be compared to.
lebron joined wade and bosh. wade was not only a champion, but also top3 player in the league. bosh might have been top 10-20. wade is definitely on magic/hakeem levels as far as that goes.
and that's besides the point. lebron hopped to different teammates when the time came, and that's the root of the criticism. forget magic. larry could have teamed up with Isaih, i don't care who is chosen. and it just emphasizes how lebron gets away from criticism through these basically selfish maneuvers that other superstars just didnt do. and even with all this help and maneuvering, he still is not as good as any of these guys. |
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focus
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Joined: 23 May 2012
Posts: 2526
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| BballGod83 wrote: | Lebron...he crushes Bird basically by every measure of impact and accomplishments.
compare 1980s stats to 2000s stats straight-up.
Because of the threes, Lebron's TS% is actually 58.1%, well above Bird's 56.4%.
In '79-'80, when Bird came into the league, the average game had 220 possessions/game (counting shots and turnovers). By the time he retired in 1992 that had dropped to 210.
In '03-'04, when Lebron came into the league, the average game had 190 possessions/game. It dropped to 186 by '06 before rising to 197 now.
Bird's basically getting a 12% bump on every stat just because guys were running up and down the floor and letting the ball fly in the 1980s. The game was a lot more wide open.
By 100 possessions, the numbers are:
Lebron: 36.9 points, 9.7 boards, 9.4 assists, 2.3 steals, 1.1 blocks
Bird: 30.3 points, 12.5 boards, 7.9 assists, 2.1 steals, 1.0 blocks
Add in the better shooting, and Lebron kills Bird on the advanced stats.
PER: Lebron 27.7, Bird 23.5
Win shares/48: Lebron .240, Bird .203
BPM: Lebron 9.2, Bird 7.2
VORP: Lebron 108.6, Bird 79.7
..let's not even get started on defense |
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Theseus
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| focus wrote: | | BballGod83 wrote: | Lebron...he crushes Bird basically by every measure of impact and accomplishments.
compare 1980s stats to 2000s stats straight-up.
Because of the threes, Lebron's TS% is actually 58.1%, well above Bird's 56.4%.
In '79-'80, when Bird came into the league, the average game had 220 possessions/game (counting shots and turnovers). By the time he retired in 1992 that had dropped to 210.
In '03-'04, when Lebron came into the league, the average game had 190 possessions/game. It dropped to 186 by '06 before rising to 197 now.
Bird's basically getting a 12% bump on every stat just because guys were running up and down the floor and letting the ball fly in the 1980s. The game was a lot more wide open.
By 100 possessions, the numbers are:
Lebron: 36.9 points, 9.7 boards, 9.4 assists, 2.3 steals, 1.1 blocks
Bird: 30.3 points, 12.5 boards, 7.9 assists, 2.1 steals, 1.0 blocks
Add in the better shooting, and Lebron kills Bird on the advanced stats.
PER: Lebron 27.7, Bird 23.5
Win shares/48: Lebron .240, Bird .203
BPM: Lebron 9.2, Bird 7.2
VORP: Lebron 108.6, Bird 79.7
..let's not even get started on defense |
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How dare you doubt the basketball messiah. Praise be to he |
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governator
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Posts: 25092
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| BballGod83 wrote: | | focus wrote: | | BballGod83 wrote: | Lebron...he crushes Bird basically by every measure of impact and accomplishments.
compare 1980s stats to 2000s stats straight-up.
Because of the threes, Lebron's TS% is actually 58.1%, well above Bird's 56.4%.
In '79-'80, when Bird came into the league, the average game had 220 possessions/game (counting shots and turnovers). By the time he retired in 1992 that had dropped to 210.
In '03-'04, when Lebron came into the league, the average game had 190 possessions/game. It dropped to 186 by '06 before rising to 197 now.
Bird's basically getting a 12% bump on every stat just because guys were running up and down the floor and letting the ball fly in the 1980s. The game was a lot more wide open.
By 100 possessions, the numbers are:
Lebron: 36.9 points, 9.7 boards, 9.4 assists, 2.3 steals, 1.1 blocks
Bird: 30.3 points, 12.5 boards, 7.9 assists, 2.1 steals, 1.0 blocks
Add in the better shooting, and Lebron kills Bird on the advanced stats.
PER: Lebron 27.7, Bird 23.5
Win shares/48: Lebron .240, Bird .203
BPM: Lebron 9.2, Bird 7.2
VORP: Lebron 108.6, Bird 79.7
..let's not even get started on defense |
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whats the problem?  |
Great stuff. Can u do Shaq vs Hakeem and MJ vs Kobe too? |
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rwongega
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Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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Location: UCLA -> NY
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| BballGod83 wrote: | Lebron...he crushes Bird basically by every measure of impact and accomplishments.
compare 1980s stats to 2000s stats straight-up.
Because of the threes, Lebron's TS% is actually 58.1%, well above Bird's 56.4%.
In '79-'80, when Bird came into the league, the average game had 220 possessions/game (counting shots and turnovers). By the time he retired in 1992 that had dropped to 210.
In '03-'04, when Lebron came into the league, the average game had 190 possessions/game. It dropped to 186 by '06 before rising to 197 now.
Bird's basically getting a 12% bump on every stat just because guys were running up and down the floor and letting the ball fly in the 1980s. The game was a lot more wide open.
By 100 possessions, the numbers are:
Lebron: 36.9 points, 9.7 boards, 9.4 assists, 2.3 steals, 1.1 blocks
Bird: 30.3 points, 12.5 boards, 7.9 assists, 2.1 steals, 1.0 blocks
Add in the better shooting, and Lebron kills Bird on the advanced stats.
PER: Lebron 27.7, Bird 23.5
Win shares/48: Lebron .240, Bird .203
BPM: Lebron 9.2, Bird 7.2
VORP: Lebron 108.6, Bird 79.7
..let's not even get started on defense |
Oh hey look. Same post, different username on a new account!
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RIP Alex Gruenberg
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rwongega
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Location: UCLA -> NY
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| focus wrote: | | BballGod83 wrote: | Lebron...he crushes Bird basically by every measure of impact and accomplishments.
compare 1980s stats to 2000s stats straight-up.
Because of the threes, Lebron's TS% is actually 58.1%, well above Bird's 56.4%.
In '79-'80, when Bird came into the league, the average game had 220 possessions/game (counting shots and turnovers). By the time he retired in 1992 that had dropped to 210.
In '03-'04, when Lebron came into the league, the average game had 190 possessions/game. It dropped to 186 by '06 before rising to 197 now.
Bird's basically getting a 12% bump on every stat just because guys were running up and down the floor and letting the ball fly in the 1980s. The game was a lot more wide open.
By 100 possessions, the numbers are:
Lebron: 36.9 points, 9.7 boards, 9.4 assists, 2.3 steals, 1.1 blocks
Bird: 30.3 points, 12.5 boards, 7.9 assists, 2.1 steals, 1.0 blocks
Add in the better shooting, and Lebron kills Bird on the advanced stats.
PER: Lebron 27.7, Bird 23.5
Win shares/48: Lebron .240, Bird .203
BPM: Lebron 9.2, Bird 7.2
VORP: Lebron 108.6, Bird 79.7
..let's not even get started on defense |
You joined LG for this post? My advanced stats analysis tells me you did.
Posts: 1
Days since joined: <1 |
This is another one of his new duplicate accounts.
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RIP Jonathan Tang
RIP Alex Gruenberg
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SuperboyReformed
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Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 4083
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| rwongega wrote: | | focus wrote: | | BballGod83 wrote: | Lebron...he crushes Bird basically by every measure of impact and accomplishments.
compare 1980s stats to 2000s stats straight-up.
Because of the threes, Lebron's TS% is actually 58.1%, well above Bird's 56.4%.
In '79-'80, when Bird came into the league, the average game had 220 possessions/game (counting shots and turnovers). By the time he retired in 1992 that had dropped to 210.
In '03-'04, when Lebron came into the league, the average game had 190 possessions/game. It dropped to 186 by '06 before rising to 197 now.
Bird's basically getting a 12% bump on every stat just because guys were running up and down the floor and letting the ball fly in the 1980s. The game was a lot more wide open.
By 100 possessions, the numbers are:
Lebron: 36.9 points, 9.7 boards, 9.4 assists, 2.3 steals, 1.1 blocks
Bird: 30.3 points, 12.5 boards, 7.9 assists, 2.1 steals, 1.0 blocks
Add in the better shooting, and Lebron kills Bird on the advanced stats.
PER: Lebron 27.7, Bird 23.5
Win shares/48: Lebron .240, Bird .203
BPM: Lebron 9.2, Bird 7.2
VORP: Lebron 108.6, Bird 79.7
..let's not even get started on defense |
You joined LG for this post? My advanced stats analysis tells me you did.
Posts: 1
Days since joined: <1 |
This is another one of his new duplicate accounts. |
typical. this is why we cant have nice things. |
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Dave20
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | Dave20 wrote: | | Bird is better than any player in this era and it isn't close. The guy avg 26 pts, 10 rebs, 6 ast, 2 stls, on efficient shooting with good defense in his prime. |
No player in this era even close to Bird?
Shaq? Duncan? Kobe? The man in question, LeBron? Clarkson? |
Nope. None of those players are better than Bird. |
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Dave20
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Posts: 11333
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Dave20 wrote: | | Bird is better than any player in this era and it isn't close. The guy avg 26 pts, 10 rebs, 6 ast, 2 stls, on efficient shooting with good defense in his prime. |
So you're using Bird from 85-86. Let's compare that to Lebron from 12-13.
Bird: 26 pts, 10 rebs, 7 ast, 2 stls, 1 block, 50% from the field, 42% from 3-point line.
Lebron: 27 pts, 8 rebs, 7 ast, 2 stls, 1 block, 57% from the field, 41% from 3-point line.
Both were regular season and finals MVPs. Lebron was 1st all-d; Bird won no defensive honors.
In what way is this not close? |
Bird played in a much more physical era and went up against better competition. Players around Bird avg more themselves. Before Lebron Bosh avg 20+ with Lebron 15. The same happened with Kevin Love. Lebron plays at the expense of his teammates. Jordan couldn't beat Bird until he was old. Bird had the it factor that Lebron never had. He was just a better player and leader than Lebron. |
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SuperboyReformed
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Joined: 07 Oct 2012
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| lol at comparing the numbers. i mean, so many differences, i'll give a big one...larry's numbers had man defense, lebron's numbers have zone defense. i'm curious how these factor in your debate. |
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Dreamshake
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Joined: 05 May 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: |
and just swap their stories to see how ridiculous it is. imagine if bird hopped from one team to another and teamed up with guys like magic and hakeem or something. and to actually score over double teams and such |
LeBron has never had one teammate that should be compared to Magic or Hakeem. |
why? because they are gods and legends? |
Because no one can make any reasonable argument for any teammate he ever had being as good as Magic or Hakeem. At least not when he played with them (since he did play with Shaq).
And Wade was never a top 3 player in the league. Duncan, LeBron, Kobe. Durant was better at that point too. So was Dirk. And being a top 3 player still doesn't put you on the level of a Magic or Hakeem. Magic is the arguable GOAT and Hakeem is an arguable top 10 player ever.
And Larry and Magic couldn't have just teamed up with anyone because unrestricted free agency didn't exist at that point. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Dave20 wrote: | | Bird is better than any player in this era and it isn't close. The guy avg 26 pts, 10 rebs, 6 ast, 2 stls, on efficient shooting with good defense in his prime. |
So you're using Bird from 85-86. Let's compare that to Lebron from 12-13.
Bird: 26 pts, 10 rebs, 7 ast, 2 stls, 1 block, 50% from the field, 42% from 3-point line.
Lebron: 27 pts, 8 rebs, 7 ast, 2 stls, 1 block, 57% from the field, 41% from 3-point line.
Both were regular season and finals MVPs. Lebron was 1st all-d; Bird won no defensive honors.
In what way is this not close? |
Except Bird shot consistently with his jumper.
Also at the age of 31 with a bad back Bird put up 30/9/6 on 52% shooting and 42% from three and 91% from the free throw line.
Bird at 31 would have been MVP of the league last year with numbers like that, and considering Steph's year, that is saying something. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave20 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Dave20 wrote: | | Bird is better than any player in this era and it isn't close. The guy avg 26 pts, 10 rebs, 6 ast, 2 stls, on efficient shooting with good defense in his prime. |
So you're using Bird from 85-86. Let's compare that to Lebron from 12-13.
Bird: 26 pts, 10 rebs, 7 ast, 2 stls, 1 block, 50% from the field, 42% from 3-point line.
Lebron: 27 pts, 8 rebs, 7 ast, 2 stls, 1 block, 57% from the field, 41% from 3-point line.
Both were regular season and finals MVPs. Lebron was 1st all-d; Bird won no defensive honors.
In what way is this not close? |
Bird played in a much more physical era and went up against better competition. Players around Bird avg more themselves. Before Lebron Bosh avg 20+ with Lebron 15. The same happened with Kevin Love. Lebron plays at the expense of his teammates. Jordan couldn't beat Bird until he was old. Bird had the it factor that Lebron never had. He was just a better player and leader than Lebron. |
Good - at least now you are making an argument in support of your opinion, though I think a lot of the new points you are bringing up have holes in them.
Like, oh, "Jordan couldn't beat Bird until he was old." It would be just as accurate to flip it around and say, "Bird only beat Jordan when Bird was surrounded by Hall of Famers in their prime and Jordan had nothing special teammates to support him." I know you won't find that spin as fun, but that spin is just as reasonable to me. Though I don't agree with either spin; they are both too simplistic and overlook a lot of facts.
I find that's the case with most of your points. It's OK to say Bird is better than Lebron, Hakeem, Kobe, Duncan and Shaq. Lots of people feel that way. It's pretty hard to defend the idea that these guys aren't "close to him," and you won't convince anyone with sweeping generalizations that ignore facts and nuaces that aren't in your favor. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | lol at comparing the numbers. i mean, so many differences, i'll give a big one...larry's numbers had man defense, lebron's numbers have zone defense. i'm curious how these factor in your debate. |
The 1980s was my favorite era of the NBA. That said, it was a high scoring, fast paced era, where teams scored about 10 points a game more than they do today. My impression is teams really pushed the tempo and there were more open looks from closer than today. It's really tough to compare defense from era to era, but I wouldn't consider the 1980s an era with particular strong defense, certainly not strong enough to warrant extra credit for Bird. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | lebron hopped to different teammates when the time came, and that's the root of the criticism. forget magic. larry could have teamed up with Isaih |
I've always found this a weak argument for a couple of reasons.
First, Bird was drafted onto a team with a couple of Hall of Famers, and he played with several Hall of Famers in their prime his entire career. He didn't need to go somewhere else to be on a superteam.
Second, unrestricted free agency didn't come into the NBA until 1988. Bird didn't have the opportunity to move around like players do today. If he had joined the Pistons, he might have been on a worse team because the league would have given the Celtics a bunch of players from that team as compensation.
So basically you're giving Bird extra credit for not leaving a superteam in order to go to a team that might have ended up being worse. |
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