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44TheLogo
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22
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 Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm bout to read this then wait on KIROE's post. Thanks for sharing 44TheLogo! |
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KeepItRealOrElse
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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Dope article.
- With Kawhi and Bazemore you saw that they both had too much cockback on their shot, now they have some of the least amount of cockback in the league.
What was really interesting to me was how Bazemore said he and his coach looked at different shooting motions of players - different types of players, and implemented some elements of their strokes. I've thought of this as well - I've noticed that players with similar measurables (wingspan/reach) can actually have similar looking strokes.
Kawhi's stroke is completely unique IMO because of his unique measurables. There literally isn't a similar stroke out there.
Bazemore started this season shooting lightssss out from 3. But finished shooting only 35%, and 36%(2014) in his first season as a Hawk. He shot better, 37% in his stint with the Lakers, on almost as many attempts as his first season with the Hawks and that shooting coach. Yes..... I'm about to say how I'm not completely convinced his shot is much better after the change to having zero cockback.
I think his shot lacks rhythm now because there is absolutely zero cockback, eliminating the overt amount he had was good, but I think he could use a little more. He was also a 10% better midrange shooter as a Laker. I watch him now and his midrange shot has no rhythm, and he can't adjust to different ranges - that's what rhythm helps you do - it helps you adjust your shot pocket slightly for different ranges.
Every player's ideal stroke is different. Some shooting coaches don't take heed to that theory - for instance I follow the Magic shooting coach on twitter. He believes there should be zero cockback, players SHOULD stand 10 toes to the rim, and there should be space between the hand and the ball.
Brandon Ingram also has a lot of cockback on his shot. It worked at Duke, but when it's not working @44thelogo will say he's "slingshotting" it. Which is what it looks like, cockback at the shoulder = slingshotting... But he's always shot like that and it used to work. Ingram's issue with shooting over people is because of where he cockcs the ball back at - a low point, his shoulder. Kobe had a lot of cockback, but it was above his head, same with Jordan(who Kobe stole his form from.) - and they have similar measurables - shots look identical.
The amount of cockback or slingshot-ness he has on his shot, probably is an issue at this deep of a 3pt line. It's pretty difficult to have perfect muscle memory with that much amount of cockback - and when a range is too far, and it's strenuous to shoot - that much cockback is actually difficult on your balance(working against your body, backwards).
He has a pretty unique shooting motion, having that much cockback, at that low of a point(the shoulder) |
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tox
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Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17880
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:22 am Post subject: |
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[quote]
With this age group we’re working with, there’s a lot of visual learners. Not everybody wants to see themselves shoot, but you want to show it to them so they can see what you’re talking about
[/quote
(bleep) is insane to me. I play pickup maybe once a week when time permits, and I still tried all sorts of weird configurations (including putting my phone on a tree!) so that I could get a good angle to see and fix my jump shot. These guys are professionals and being spoon fed the information, and they can't bother?? |
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44TheLogo
Star Player
Joined: 21 Feb 2009
Posts: 6364
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | Dope article.
- With Kawhi and Bazemore you saw that they both had too much cockback on their shot, now they have some of the least amount of cockback in the league.
What was really interesting to me was how Bazemore said he and his coach looked at different shooting motions of players - different types of players, and implemented some elements of their strokes. I've thought of this as well - I've noticed that players with similar measurables (wingspan/reach) can actually have similar looking strokes.
Kawhi's stroke is completely unique IMO because of his unique measurables. There literally isn't a similar stroke out there.
Bazemore started this season shooting lightssss out from 3. But finished shooting only 35%, and 36%(2014) in his first season as a Hawk. He shot better, 37% in his stint with the Lakers, on almost as many attempts as his first season with the Hawks and that shooting coach. Yes..... I'm about to say how I'm not completely convinced his shot is much better after the change to having zero cockback.
I think his shot lacks rhythm now because there is absolutely zero cockback, eliminating the overt amount he had was good, but I think he could use a little more. He was also a 10% better midrange shooter as a Laker. I watch him now and his midrange shot has no rhythm, and he can't adjust to different ranges - that's what rhythm helps you do - it helps you adjust your shot pocket slightly for different ranges.
Every player's ideal stroke is different. Some shooting coaches don't take heed to that theory - for instance I follow the Magic shooting coach on twitter. He believes there should be zero cockback, players SHOULD stand 10 toes to the rim, and there should be space between the hand and the ball.
Brandon Ingram also has a lot of cockback on his shot. It worked at Duke, but when it's not working @44thelogo will say he's "slingshotting" it. Which is what it looks like, cockback at the shoulder = slingshotting... But he's always shot like that and it used to work. Ingram's issue with shooting over people is because of where he cockcs the ball back at - a low point, his shoulder. Kobe had a lot of cockback, but it was above his head, same with Jordan(who Kobe stole his form from.) - and they have similar measurables - shots look identical.
The amount of cockback or slingshot-ness he has on his shot, probably is an issue at this deep of a 3pt line. It's pretty difficult to have perfect muscle memory with that much amount of cockback - and when a range is too far, and it's strenuous to shoot - that much cockback is actually difficult on your balance(working against your body, backwards).
He has a pretty unique shooting motion, having that much cockback, at that low of a point(the shoulder) |
the magic shooting coach preaches 10 toes to the rim? o my gawd |
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Wino
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Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 9674
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:51 am Post subject: |
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Just finally read this article, it seems pretty right on target to me.
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Never argue with stupid people! They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!! - Twain |
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KeepItRealOrElse
Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012
Posts: 32767
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| 44TheLogo wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | Dope article.
- With Kawhi and Bazemore you saw that they both had too much cockback on their shot, now they have some of the least amount of cockback in the league.
What was really interesting to me was how Bazemore said he and his coach looked at different shooting motions of players - different types of players, and implemented some elements of their strokes. I've thought of this as well - I've noticed that players with similar measurables (wingspan/reach) can actually have similar looking strokes.
Kawhi's stroke is completely unique IMO because of his unique measurables. There literally isn't a similar stroke out there.
Bazemore started this season shooting lightssss out from 3. But finished shooting only 35%, and 36%(2014) in his first season as a Hawk. He shot better, 37% in his stint with the Lakers, on almost as many attempts as his first season with the Hawks and that shooting coach. Yes..... I'm about to say how I'm not completely convinced his shot is much better after the change to having zero cockback.
I think his shot lacks rhythm now because there is absolutely zero cockback, eliminating the overt amount he had was good, but I think he could use a little more. He was also a 10% better midrange shooter as a Laker. I watch him now and his midrange shot has no rhythm, and he can't adjust to different ranges - that's what rhythm helps you do - it helps you adjust your shot pocket slightly for different ranges.
Every player's ideal stroke is different. Some shooting coaches don't take heed to that theory - for instance I follow the Magic shooting coach on twitter. He believes there should be zero cockback, players SHOULD stand 10 toes to the rim, and there should be space between the hand and the ball.
Brandon Ingram also has a lot of cockback on his shot. It worked at Duke, but when it's not working @44thelogo will say he's "slingshotting" it. Which is what it looks like, cockback at the shoulder = slingshotting... But he's always shot like that and it used to work. Ingram's issue with shooting over people is because of where he cockcs the ball back at - a low point, his shoulder. Kobe had a lot of cockback, but it was above his head, same with Jordan(who Kobe stole his form from.) - and they have similar measurables - shots look identical.
The amount of cockback or slingshot-ness he has on his shot, probably is an issue at this deep of a 3pt line. It's pretty difficult to have perfect muscle memory with that much amount of cockback - and when a range is too far, and it's strenuous to shoot - that much cockback is actually difficult on your balance(working against your body, backwards).
He has a pretty unique shooting motion, having that much cockback, at that low of a point(the shoulder) |
the magic shooting coach preaches 10 toes to the rim? o my gawd |
yea he does.. lol. |
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44TheLogo
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009
Posts: 6364
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| any insight into tracy murray as a shooting coach kiroe? i was watching some of his highlight vids to figure out what worked for him to see what he might be teaching our guys. |
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22
Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Apr 2013
Posts: 17063
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:43 am Post subject: |
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Not sure Tracy Murray is still on staff 44TheLogo
KIROE (IIRC) & I were never high on him. He didn't seem like an expert to me |
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44TheLogo
Star Player
Joined: 21 Feb 2009
Posts: 6364
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| 22 wrote: | Not sure Tracy Murray is still on staff 44TheLogo
KIROE (IIRC) & I were never high on him. He didn't seem like an expert to me |
o ur right, we let him go i forgot about that.
seems like we don't have a dedicated shooting coach, more a group of player development coaches in mermuys, keefe, and buechler |
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KeepItRealOrElse
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Joined: 11 Oct 2012
Posts: 32767
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Yea I thought Murray was trash. he changed Randle's form to an opposite side of the head shot ala Durant/M.Gasol/Boogie , but it didn't fit him, he's not long enough - and Murray didn't tweak it at all when Randle was struggling. |
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SuperboyReformed
Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 4083
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | 44TheLogo wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | Dope article.
- With Kawhi and Bazemore you saw that they both had too much cockback on their shot, now they have some of the least amount of cockback in the league.
What was really interesting to me was how Bazemore said he and his coach looked at different shooting motions of players - different types of players, and implemented some elements of their strokes. I've thought of this as well - I've noticed that players with similar measurables (wingspan/reach) can actually have similar looking strokes.
Kawhi's stroke is completely unique IMO because of his unique measurables. There literally isn't a similar stroke out there.
Bazemore started this season shooting lightssss out from 3. But finished shooting only 35%, and 36%(2014) in his first season as a Hawk. He shot better, 37% in his stint with the Lakers, on almost as many attempts as his first season with the Hawks and that shooting coach. Yes..... I'm about to say how I'm not completely convinced his shot is much better after the change to having zero cockback.
I think his shot lacks rhythm now because there is absolutely zero cockback, eliminating the overt amount he had was good, but I think he could use a little more. He was also a 10% better midrange shooter as a Laker. I watch him now and his midrange shot has no rhythm, and he can't adjust to different ranges - that's what rhythm helps you do - it helps you adjust your shot pocket slightly for different ranges.
Every player's ideal stroke is different. Some shooting coaches don't take heed to that theory - for instance I follow the Magic shooting coach on twitter. He believes there should be zero cockback, players SHOULD stand 10 toes to the rim, and there should be space between the hand and the ball.
Brandon Ingram also has a lot of cockback on his shot. It worked at Duke, but when it's not working @44thelogo will say he's "slingshotting" it. Which is what it looks like, cockback at the shoulder = slingshotting... But he's always shot like that and it used to work. Ingram's issue with shooting over people is because of where he cockcs the ball back at - a low point, his shoulder. Kobe had a lot of cockback, but it was above his head, same with Jordan(who Kobe stole his form from.) - and they have similar measurables - shots look identical.
The amount of cockback or slingshot-ness he has on his shot, probably is an issue at this deep of a 3pt line. It's pretty difficult to have perfect muscle memory with that much amount of cockback - and when a range is too far, and it's strenuous to shoot - that much cockback is actually difficult on your balance(working against your body, backwards).
He has a pretty unique shooting motion, having that much cockback, at that low of a point(the shoulder) |
the magic shooting coach preaches 10 toes to the rim? o my gawd |
yea he does.. lol. |
great post...
that article is good, but long. i'll have to read it later. until then...
i very much agree with the physical difference playing a huge role in the shot mechanics. |
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SuperboyReformed
Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 4083
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="tox"] | Quote: |
With this age group we’re working with, there’s a lot of visual learners. Not everybody wants to see themselves shoot, but you want to show it to them so they can see what you’re talking about
[/quote
(bleep) is insane to me. I play pickup maybe once a week when time permits, and I still tried all sorts of weird configurations (including putting my phone on a tree!) so that I could get a good angle to see and fix my jump shot. These guys are professionals and being spoon fed the information, and they can't bother?? |
unfortunately, this is prevalent among star athletes. it's compounded by the fact that they are basically celebrities and coddled by all those around them. it's very natural, but it definitely is not relate-able to a regular joe who goes and plays ball all the time. this is also a huge reason why places like china like kobe more than lebron. |
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activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: |
(bleep) is insane to me. I play pickup maybe once a week when time permits, and I still tried all sorts of weird configurations (including putting my phone on a tree!) so that I could get a good angle to see and fix my jump shot. These guys are professionals and being spoon fed the information, and they can't bother?? |
It's actually pretty common and it's resistance that you see from people in lots of fields, not just athletes.
By and large, people don't like being measured or being told how to do something, especially if they perceive what they're doing as successful.
Remember: these guys have succeeded at basketball all their life, and now they're being paid millions of dollars to do it. A lot of them are going to resist the notion that someone with a bunch of numbers and videos can do anything for them. So part of this is for the teams to sell the players on why this is good for them. |
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SuperboyReformed
Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 4083
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It wasn’t an easy transition, though. There was a time he couldn’t even make 16 of 25 attempts around the perimeter in an open gym. |
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