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MJST
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Legacy
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Joined: 17 Sep 2005
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Location: So. Californ-I-A
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 Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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Magic always had the Lakers first. Losing distorts thing from all sides. In other words, losing magnifies things into a little scope for people to touch on. When we all get there, it's easier to nitpick on other individuals comments.
I'll never turn on Magic, even at our lowest point. Which has happened recently. |
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SuperboyReformed
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Joined: 07 Oct 2012
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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"who am i going to pass to to bail us out?"
lol, awesome. for all these arguments about who is better, this is what it comes down to. the difference between lebron and kobe...lebron asks this question to himself in his head during crunch time. kobe...this question probably is firewalled in his brain. |
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deal
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Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 14903
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Pretty accurate comments from Magic. I think that the Lakers will stink for a while, and there is nothing wrong with that. And "a while" could be a season or two, just look at the GSW's a few years back.
Lakers will need to walk before we run....
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BynumForThree
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Joined: 27 Feb 2016
Posts: 1254
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | "who am i going to pass to to bail us out?"
lol, awesome. for all these arguments about who is better, this is what it comes down to. the difference between lebron and kobe...lebron asks this question to himself in his head during crunch time. kobe...this question probably is firewalled in his brain. |
Fun fact: LeBron is actually more efficient in "clutch" moments and has better elimination game performances than Kobe.
Selective memory bias. |
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driver
Star Player
Joined: 21 Dec 2010
Posts: 6854
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| BynumForThree wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | "who am i going to pass to to bail us out?"
lol, awesome. for all these arguments about who is better, this is what it comes down to. the difference between lebron and kobe...lebron asks this question to himself in his head during crunch time. kobe...this question probably is firewalled in his brain. |
Fun fact: LeBron is actually more efficient in "clutch" moments and has better elimination game performances than Kobe.
Selective memory bias. |
It's true but in the eyes of the players, they see it differently. I mean, today's stats guys love to compare LBJ or Steph in terms of historical numbers. When you ask the players, for example Irving last Finals, who did he refer to? Kobe. |
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SuperboyReformed
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Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 4083
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| driver wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | "who am i going to pass to to bail us out?"
lol, awesome. for all these arguments about who is better, this is what it comes down to. the difference between lebron and kobe...lebron asks this question to himself in his head during crunch time. kobe...this question probably is firewalled in his brain. |
Fun fact: LeBron is actually more efficient in "clutch" moments and has better elimination game performances than Kobe.
Selective memory bias. |
It's true but in the eyes of the players, they see it differently. I mean, today's stats guys love to compare LBJ or Steph in terms of historical numbers. When you ask the players, for example Irving last Finals, who did he refer to? Kobe. |
the problem with that, i hope everyone knows, is that the league has changed a lot of things so that the stats stand out. possibly the most ridiculous example is the way they changed the money ball in the 3pt contest. if you don't pay attention (90% of fans) it looks like today's players are better 3pt shooters in the contest. and...they are not. |
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JH from Hemet
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Joined: 25 Jun 2016
Posts: 518
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| BynumForThree wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | "who am i going to pass to to bail us out?"
lol, awesome. for all these arguments about who is better, this is what it comes down to. the difference between lebron and kobe...lebron asks this question to himself in his head during crunch time. kobe...this question probably is firewalled in his brain. |
Fun fact: LeBron is actually more efficient in "clutch" moments and has better elimination game performances than Kobe.
Selective memory bias. |
Again with this....F off |
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adkindo
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Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 40345
Location: Dirty South
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| BynumForThree wrote: |
Fun fact: LeBron is actually more efficient in "clutch" moments and has better elimination game performances than Kobe.
Selective memory bias. |
----------------------------------------------
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“Truth is nothing but a formulated perception of experienced reality.”
― L.J Vanier |
#kobebetter |
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Halflife
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Joined: 15 Aug 2015
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| When asked gm/coaches wanted Kobe for clutch. |
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BynumForThree
Star Player
Joined: 27 Feb 2016
Posts: 1254
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| driver wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | "who am i going to pass to to bail us out?"
lol, awesome. for all these arguments about who is better, this is what it comes down to. the difference between lebron and kobe...lebron asks this question to himself in his head during crunch time. kobe...this question probably is firewalled in his brain. |
Fun fact: LeBron is actually more efficient in "clutch" moments and has better elimination game performances than Kobe.
Selective memory bias. |
It's true but in the eyes of the players, they see it differently. I mean, today's stats guys love to compare LBJ or Steph in terms of historical numbers. When you ask the players, for example Irving last Finals, who did he refer to? Kobe. |
I'm sure a lot more players would mention Allen Iverson as their favorite player than Tim Duncan.
That doesn't have anything to do with actual production. Unbiased data clearly states Lebron as the superior player.
| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | driver wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | "who am i going to pass to to bail us out?"
lol, awesome. for all these arguments about who is better, this is what it comes down to. the difference between lebron and kobe...lebron asks this question to himself in his head during crunch time. kobe...this question probably is firewalled in his brain. |
Fun fact: LeBron is actually more efficient in "clutch" moments and has better elimination game performances than Kobe.
Selective memory bias. |
It's true but in the eyes of the players, they see it differently. I mean, today's stats guys love to compare LBJ or Steph in terms of historical numbers. When you ask the players, for example Irving last Finals, who did he refer to? Kobe. |
the problem with that, i hope everyone knows, is that the league has changed a lot of things so that the stats stand out. possibly the most ridiculous example is the way they changed the money ball in the 3pt contest. if you don't pay attention (90% of fans) it looks like today's players are better 3pt shooters in the contest. and...they are not. |
What on Earth are you talking about? When has anyone used the three point contest as a barometer for the best shooter? lmao
Can you use a more specific example on "how the league has changed so stars can stand out" that doesn't involve a meaningless event?
| Halflife wrote: | | When asked gm/coaches wanted Kobe for clutch. |
They also gave him numerous undeserved All-Defense selections. Plus, clearly history has shown than NBA GM's have an unquestionable understanding of the game of basketball and have never made any irrational/stupid decisions. |
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MJST
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Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26309
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:54 am Post subject: |
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Yes and how is the "clutch" stat determined?
Cause if you wanna go by that then Lou Williams was at a time the most clutch player in the history of the NBA.
And the best clutch shooter in the NBA in 2015 was Markieff Morris. And the worst? was Damian Lillard, Chris Paul and Dwyane Wade and they will tell you Jason Terry has been a better clutch shooter than Kobe since 2000...
So if you wanna take that 'clutch' stat seriously, you'll basically be admitting you'd rather have Markieff Morris and Jason Terry taking the last shot over Kobe, Melo, LeBron, or Wade.
So if you want that, then go ahead and tout that 'clutch' stat. Or you can toss it where it belongs. |
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Halflife
Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 16703
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| BynumForThree wrote: | | driver wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | "who am i going to pass to to bail us out?"
lol, awesome. for all these arguments about who is better, this is what it comes down to. the difference between lebron and kobe...lebron asks this question to himself in his head during crunch time. kobe...this question probably is firewalled in his brain. |
Fun fact: LeBron is actually more efficient in "clutch" moments and has better elimination game performances than Kobe.
Selective memory bias. |
It's true but in the eyes of the players, they see it differently. I mean, today's stats guys love to compare LBJ or Steph in terms of historical numbers. When you ask the players, for example Irving last Finals, who did he refer to? Kobe. |
I'm sure a lot more players would mention Allen Iverson as their favorite player than Tim Duncan.
That doesn't have anything to do with actual production. Unbiased data clearly states Lebron as the superior player.
| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | driver wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | "who am i going to pass to to bail us out?"
lol, awesome. for all these arguments about who is better, this is what it comes down to. the difference between lebron and kobe...lebron asks this question to himself in his head during crunch time. kobe...this question probably is firewalled in his brain. |
Fun fact: LeBron is actually more efficient in "clutch" moments and has better elimination game performances than Kobe.
Selective memory bias. |
It's true but in the eyes of the players, they see it differently. I mean, today's stats guys love to compare LBJ or Steph in terms of historical numbers. When you ask the players, for example Irving last Finals, who did he refer to? Kobe. |
the problem with that, i hope everyone knows, is that the league has changed a lot of things so that the stats stand out. possibly the most ridiculous example is the way they changed the money ball in the 3pt contest. if you don't pay attention (90% of fans) it looks like today's players are better 3pt shooters in the contest. and...they are not. |
What on Earth are you talking about? When has anyone used the three point contest as a barometer for the best shooter? lmao
Can you use a more specific example on "how the league has changed so stars can stand out" that doesn't involve a meaningless event?
| Halflife wrote: | | When asked gm/coaches wanted Kobe for clutch. |
They also gave him numerous undeserved All-Defense selections. Plus, clearly history has shown than NBA GM's have an unquestionable understanding of the game of basketball and have never made any irrational/stupid decisions. |
When? Just because you didn't think they were deserved doesn't mean they weren't. |
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BynumForThree
Star Player
Joined: 27 Feb 2016
Posts: 1254
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | Yes and how is the "clutch" stat determined?
Cause if you wanna go by that then Lou Williams was at a time the most clutch player in the history of the NBA.
And the best clutch shooter in the NBA in 2015 was Markieff Morris. And the worst? was Damian Lillard, Chris Paul and Dwyane Wade and they will tell you Jason Terry has been a better clutch shooter than Kobe since 2000...
So if you wanna take that 'clutch' stat seriously, you'll basically be admitting you'd rather have Markieff Morris and Jason Terry taking the last shot over Kobe, Melo, LeBron, or Wade.
So if you want that, then go ahead and tout that 'clutch' stat. Or you can toss it where it belongs. |
What do you mean how is it determined? It's not some complicated algorithm, it's simple. Of course with all metrics you have to view them with context. Role players shoot a high percentage because they shoot a wide open shots off what attention players like Lillard, Paul and Wade draw.
Except I'm not comparing a role player to a star player. I'm comparing two start players who other teams gameplan around. It's a completely different comparison. You can whine about the data all you want but I'll take that over what a "fan" sees screaming from his living room couch. |
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SuperboyReformed
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Joined: 07 Oct 2012
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| show me where the data actually says someone is a better clutch something or other. |
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MJST
Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26309
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| BynumForThree wrote: | | MJST wrote: | Yes and how is the "clutch" stat determined?
Cause if you wanna go by that then Lou Williams was at a time the most clutch player in the history of the NBA.
And the best clutch shooter in the NBA in 2015 was Markieff Morris. And the worst? was Damian Lillard, Chris Paul and Dwyane Wade and they will tell you Jason Terry has been a better clutch shooter than Kobe since 2000...
So if you wanna take that 'clutch' stat seriously, you'll basically be admitting you'd rather have Markieff Morris and Jason Terry taking the last shot over Kobe, Melo, LeBron, or Wade.
So if you want that, then go ahead and tout that 'clutch' stat. Or you can toss it where it belongs. |
What do you mean how is it determined? It's not some complicated algorithm, it's simple. Of course with all metrics you have to view them with context. Role players shoot a high percentage because they shoot a wide open shots off what attention players like Lillard, Paul and Wade draw.
Except I'm not comparing a role player to a star player. I'm comparing two start players who other teams gameplan around. It's a completely different comparison. You can whine about the data all you want but I'll take that over what a "fan" sees screaming from his living room couch. |
The "clutch" stat is determined
"the shots that occur during the 4th quarter or overtime, with less than five minutes remaining, and neither team ahead by more than five points". Playoffs are included."
And there's so many variables in that little 'definition' of it I am shocked anyone takes it seriously.
Though there are some that apparently do.  |
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JH from Hemet
Starting Rotation
Joined: 25 Jun 2016
Posts: 518
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| BynumForThree wrote: | | MJST wrote: | Yes and how is the "clutch" stat determined?
Cause if you wanna go by that then Lou Williams was at a time the most clutch player in the history of the NBA.
And the best clutch shooter in the NBA in 2015 was Markieff Morris. And the worst? was Damian Lillard, Chris Paul and Dwyane Wade and they will tell you Jason Terry has been a better clutch shooter than Kobe since 2000...
So if you wanna take that 'clutch' stat seriously, you'll basically be admitting you'd rather have Markieff Morris and Jason Terry taking the last shot over Kobe, Melo, LeBron, or Wade.
So if you want that, then go ahead and tout that 'clutch' stat. Or you can toss it where it belongs. |
What do you mean how is it determined? It's not some complicated algorithm, it's simple. Of course with all metrics you have to view them with context. Role players shoot a high percentage because they shoot a wide open shots off what attention players like Lillard, Paul and Wade draw.
Except I'm not comparing a role player to a star player. I'm comparing two start players who other teams gameplan around. It's a completely different comparison. You can whine about the data all you want but I'll take that over what a "fan" sees screaming from his living room couch. |
Talk to me about clutch when one of these players will play with tendonitis in both knees......hand injuries to SHOOTING hands that force shots to go to the other hand......and STILL play
The other guy wont play with a hangnail....
You cannot be clutch when you wont play hurt......availability is the best attribute you can have and one of these players is an ironman and the other is not......
Period |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144461
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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The one who has played in 93% of his team's games or the one who has played in 82% of his team's games? The answer isn't what you think it is.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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BynumForThree
Star Player
Joined: 27 Feb 2016
Posts: 1254
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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quote="SuperboyReformed"]show me where the data actually says someone is a better clutch something or other.[/quote]
https://swishnba.com/tag/the-truth-about-kobe-in-the-clutch/
Knock yourself out.
| MJST wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | MJST wrote: | Yes and how is the "clutch" stat determined?
Cause if you wanna go by that then Lou Williams was at a time the most clutch player in the history of the NBA.
And the best clutch shooter in the NBA in 2015 was Markieff Morris. And the worst? was Damian Lillard, Chris Paul and Dwyane Wade and they will tell you Jason Terry has been a better clutch shooter than Kobe since 2000...
So if you wanna take that 'clutch' stat seriously, you'll basically be admitting you'd rather have Markieff Morris and Jason Terry taking the last shot over Kobe, Melo, LeBron, or Wade.
So if you want that, then go ahead and tout that 'clutch' stat. Or you can toss it where it belongs. |
What do you mean how is it determined? It's not some complicated algorithm, it's simple. Of course with all metrics you have to view them with context. Role players shoot a high percentage because they shoot a wide open shots off what attention players like Lillard, Paul and Wade draw.
Except I'm not comparing a role player to a star player. I'm comparing two start players who other teams gameplan around. It's a completely different comparison. You can whine about the data all you want but I'll take that over what a "fan" sees screaming from his living room couch. |
The "clutch" stat is determined
"the shots that occur during the 4th quarter or overtime, with less than five minutes remaining, and neither team ahead by more than five points". Playoffs are included."
And there's so many variables in that little 'definition' of it I am shocked anyone takes it seriously.
Though there are some that apparently do. |
Fine, want to judge them by Playoff elimination game performances? Because LeBron outperforms him there too.
All data available suggests that LeBron is more efficient. Fans that parrot the lazy narratives of talking heads on ESPN say otherwise. |
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Roon
Star Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
Posts: 1816
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| BynumForThree wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | "who am i going to pass to to bail us out?"
lol, awesome. for all these arguments about who is better, this is what it comes down to. the difference between lebron and kobe...lebron asks this question to himself in his head during crunch time. kobe...this question probably is firewalled in his brain. |
Fun fact: LeBron is actually more efficient in "clutch" moments and has better elimination game performances than Kobe.
Selective memory bias. |
That wasn't a fun fact at all. |
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yammy1688
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Joined: 14 May 2009
Posts: 460
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a fact:
how we measure basketball performance, stats is only really relevant to the era they were measured. too much changes, even between kobe and lebron years, nba rule changes, their teams, etc... to make any reasonable comparison as to whose 'better'. context matters, and there MUST, MUST be an eye test. you can pretty much tell any story you want with 'stats'
if stats told the whole tale, coaches wouldn't bother reviewing video. my biased eye test says kobe. |
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TooMuchMajicBuss
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Joined: 17 Sep 2008
Posts: 21075
Location: In a white room, with black curtains near the station
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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WOW guise!! It's a "Magic Johnson Breaks down the Lakers Young Core" thread!
So... let's talk KOBE versus LEBRON!!! And fawn over LeBron!!! |
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PushingtheLimit
Star Player
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 3814
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| TooMuchMajicBuss wrote: | WOW guise!! It's a "Magic Johnson Breaks down the Lakers Young Core" thread!
So... let's talk KOBE versus LEBRON!!! And fawn over LeBron!!! |
Classic mental masturbation session of Player A vs Player B, with completely subjective and biased opinions which leads to no change of heart between the parties arguing.
Magic always states the obvious which is not a bad thing but his defense of Scott just because of their showtime days was pretty bad. |
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67ShelbyGT
Star Player
Joined: 11 May 2008
Posts: 4048
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:03 am Post subject: |
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Yet, the 2 times that his team needed the most clutch shots of his life, it was Ray Allen and Kyrie that saved him from being an 1-ring pony.
Stats are good only with context or else they can easily be manipulated to support any argument. ESPN is the king of this tactic.
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Alltime lineup: Magic | Kobe | MJ | Hakeem | KAJ |
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KBH
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Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 12171
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| Lebron and Kobe are both all-time greats. But right now, I'm more interested in discussing the Lakers core. It's a shame OP made another thread about Kobe and Lebron rather than our current players. Oh, wait... |
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