Yeah, I'm generally in the neighborhood re: your views on this issue. I look at it this way: In late game situations, when a turnover can devastate prospects for a win, I think the default strategy has involved keeping the ball in one player's hands as much as possible, and that one player has usually been the team's primary ball handler. For us, that person was Kobe for the past 20 years (the usage rate makes that clear, right?). For Cleveland, it's been LeBron or Kyrie of late.
But again, the big picture is this (at least for me): The expanding versatility of wings in general, and the evolution of the game to include seven footers who can handle the ball like point guards, is flipping the script ... I think we're well on our way to a time when isolation basketball provides a certain pathway to the lottery.
And back on topic: the versatility in Russell's game, Ingram's game and Clarkson's game is going to dictate who takes the final shot for us, and it will be dependent on many factors. I just don't see the "relief pitcher" model in basketball making much sense any longer. And I don't think it really ever did ...
FWIW, there is a pretty clear distinction between Kobe and that clip of the Warriors vs. Cavs... unlike most of Kobe's late game heroics (and forgotten un-heroics), Kyrie, LeBron, and Steph all did their damage (or lack of damage) basically against single coverage. The one time a player faced help defense, he passed it (Kyrie to the cutting LeBron). I'm not sure they're going to cut out the "relief pitcher" model completely, but I imagine the days of a guy shooting against double or triple coverage are over.
And yeah, I imagine the Lakers will go to something more egalitarian in clutch situations. But who's the primary option on the play you draw up with 20 seconds left on the clock? I see it being Russell, but Clarkson and (down the line) Ingram would be good options as well.
Yeah, I think it's just going to depend on how much Ingram develops into that frame of his. If he works to realize all of that potential, and he develops into anything approaching Kevin Durant, he's going to be tremendously viable in that role, too. I definitely think that Russell will be a steady contributor in these situations, and I also see Clarkson chipping in when the game's on the line. So yeah, I'm pretty sanguine ... although it disappoints me that the top prospect just two season ago is not even 22 years old and I feel like I've already written him off. At this point, I'm hoping he can prove me wrong ...
just making due with what his front office provided him with. The level of difficulty on that is much greater
Not necessarily. Let's take Bird and Magic who played with Hall of Fame teammates their entire careers. Their "level of difficulty" for "making due with what their front office provided" was zero. In fact, I think it would have been extraordinarily difficult for them to leave as free agents and improve their situation. So why should they get extra credit for staying put, when staying put was the easiest way for them to win?
I see your point that in some cases it actually helped the player to stand pat with their franchise (in retrospect), however, my point is similar to this comparison: winning the world series of poker with the hands you were dealt vs winning the world series of poke by going into the deck and picking cards u want from the deck. Sure u might get luckier and win with the hands you are dealt but the person who hand picks cards from a portion of the deck has it much easier wouldn't u say?
venturalakersfan wrote:
You can say that 10,000 times and it still wouldn't be accurate. Kobe succeeded with other stars, and didn't without other stars. Same with pretty much every other player in the NBA.
U r right that kobe had other stars but thats not my point. my point is kobe didn't leave and hand pick star free agents to team up with in free agency to make his goal dramatically more attainable. It's like if lebron had stayed in Cleveland his entire career and won 5 out of 7 chips, wouldn't you value those more than the 3 out of 7 he's currently won hopping between superteams? Even after that significant advantage, he's still basically 3 out of 7 in the finals. Compare that to teams like the spurs, mavs, lakers, pistons, and warriors who did it the old fashioned way. Kobe could have left lakers or demanded a trade during the post shaq and pre pau days (heck even after the 2011 loss) and won perhaps another chip or two the way shaq tried to do when he became a ring chaser, but kobe didnt and still won 5 out of 7. Duncan has 5 with the same team that was practically entirely developed from the ground up. Is that not more comendable? Is that not more difficult to do? To rely on your front office to provide you with pieces you must make fit together rather than going out and selecting some of the best pieces available that fit your liking. Kobe had to hope his franchise made it easier on him, lebron made it easier on himself.
Wrong ... he very publicly demanded a trade. Both after Shaq left and earlier in his career, as well. Get your facts straight, since you've done this thousands of times.
You are twisting the crap out of that (which is not suprising) Kobe said "do something to fix it"
He never actually left....unlike Lebron who left to help form the super friends
Bottom line.....Kobe has never left the team that traded to get him in the draft......period
Kobe's trade demands before he was drafted; when he was second fiddle to Shaq early in his career; and then again when he fell flat on his face for multiple seasons after he convinced the Lakers franchise to place its bet on him are exactly what they are ...
I'm not his therapist, but the motivations seem pretty obvious to me. The first trade demand involved a pretty savvy teenager and his inner circle manipulating a situation to maximize the potential he might land in a favorable situation. In his shoes, I'm sure I would have tried to do the same thing. And the other instances seem like the lashing-out that happens when an egomaniac fights the fact that his perception of his own abilities isn't really squaring with reality. Again, I probably would have done the same exact thing if I had been lucky enough to be as talented as Kobe, but was simultaneously forced to confront the reality that I just couldn't get the job done.
Meanwhile, I actually don't hold any of that against Kobe. Where I weigh-in on this issue, however, is the point when the KDL tries to disparage LeBron because he had to make his own opportunity. And the contrast that's always drawn is Kobe's charmed path. In my book, it wasn't served up for LeBron on a silver platter, so he went out and made it happen himself. It's ironic, you must admit, that so many Kobe fans tout the bootstrappy hard work legend of Kobe (often emphasizing that he had to overcome some perceived physical gift deficit in comparison to LeBron or MJ), but those same individuals just cannot give credit to LeBron for his own bootstrappy initiative in working around the limitations of what Dan Gilbert was willing to provide for him in the way of a legitimate #2 (Zydrunas Illgauskus or Mo Williams ... are you (bleep) kidding me?) ...
And lastly: we didn't trade to get Kobe in the draft. He was drafted by Charlotte, and then traded to us. Small detail, but relevant nonetheless ...
No...its not....how is that any different then what I said.....we traded to get Kobe in the draft
No...its not....how is that any different then what I said.....we traded to get Kobe in the draft
When you trade to get someone in the draft, that means you trade for the pick, then draft the player. That's not what happened in 1996. Charlotte drafted the player, after which we traded for the player. It matters. Many individuals who counts themselves among his fanbase apparently don't know the actual details of Kobe's acquisition. In fact, I'd say most don't seem to understand what went down 20+ years ago. But that's the fact of the matter: he was drafted by Charlotte, after which we traded for him. If that's what you meant, great. But that's not what you wrote, and I simply clarified your comment in my postscript.
Last edited by the association on Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
Yet, the 2 times that his team needed the most clutch shots of his life, it was Ray Allen and Kyrie that saved him from being an 1-ring pony.
Stats are good only with context or else they can easily be manipulated to support any argument. ESPN is the king of this tactic.
This is the dagger right here.
Just as Fisher and Horry saved Kobe from losing out on a couple of rings. Surprise, it takes a team to win a title. That is why using titles in individual comparisons is so dumb.
Do you honestly think that if we'd lost game 4 against the Magic that they would have beaten us? Seriously?
I honestly think we lose to the Kings if not for Horry's clutch shot. And to the Spurs if not for Fish outdoing TD's clutch shot.
Horry shot... last I checked was not g7 literally last shot of the game so it's pure speculation what woulda coulda happened. Now, Kyrie doesn't bail LBJ out in that shot, it's a fact that LBJ is at 2 rings. Ray doesn't grab that rebound and hit that 3, it's again a guarantee that LBJ is at 1 ring.
(We didn't win a ring the yr Fish hit that .4 shot... sorry to ruin you BS spin party... even after his retirement the Kobe haters running strong. Love it)
The score was tied at 89 prior to Kyrie's basket with a minute or so left in the game. LeBron had scored the previous 8 points for the Cavaliers, including the six straight points that brought them from four down to two up before Klay's basket tied the game at 89. Of course, LeBron plays both ends of the court, so he also foreclosed on Golden State's best chance for points in the final few minutes with "the block". In case you missed it, here it is:
From those facts, you've concluded that without Kyrie's shot, the Cavaliers would definitively have lost the game and the series? Please explain ...
Funny you didn't comment on the Jesus Shuttlesworth shot. Please explain...
So Kyrie misses, game is tied w/ 53 sec left at Oakland with the entire playbook open and a 2 wins the game... with the best shooters now open to driving for a 2.... on the other side hot potatoe LeBron just made 1 of 2 FTs... we all know you are Shaq jocker and hate all 206 bones of Kob but I do enjoy you're desperate attempts to grasp at anything tho... What I sole sir you, son. _________________ Alltime lineup: Magic | Kobe | MJ | Hakeem | KAJ
Yet, the 2 times that his team needed the most clutch shots of his life, it was Ray Allen and Kyrie that saved him from being an 1-ring pony.
Stats are good only with context or else they can easily be manipulated to support any argument. ESPN is the king of this tactic.
This is the dagger right here.
Just as Fisher and Horry saved Kobe from losing out on a couple of rings. Surprise, it takes a team to win a title. That is why using titles in individual comparisons is so dumb.
Do you honestly think that if we'd lost game 4 against the Magic that they would have beaten us? Seriously?
I honestly think we lose to the Kings if not for Horry's clutch shot. And to the Spurs if not for Fish outdoing TD's clutch shot.
Horry shot... last I checked was not g7 literally last shot of the game so it's pure speculation what woulda coulda happened. Now, Kyrie doesn't bail LBJ out in that shot, it's a fact that LBJ is at 2 rings. Ray doesn't grab that rebound and hit that 3, it's again a guarantee that LBJ is at 1 ring.
(We didn't win a ring the yr Fish hit that .4 shot... sorry to ruin you BS spin party... even after his retirement the Kobe haters running strong. Love it)
The score was tied at 89 prior to Kyrie's basket with a minute or so left in the game. LeBron had scored the previous 8 points for the Cavaliers, including the six straight points that brought them from four down to two up before Klay's basket tied the game at 89. Of course, LeBron plays both ends of the court, so he also foreclosed on Golden State's best chance for points in the final few minutes with "the block". In case you missed it, here it is:
From those facts, you've concluded that without Kyrie's shot, the Cavaliers would definitively have lost the game and the series? Please explain ...
Funny you didn't comment on the Jesus Shuttlesworth shot. Please explain...
So Kyrie misses, game is tied w/ 53 sec left at Oakland with the entire playbook open and a 2 wins the game... with the best shooters now open to driving for a 2.... on the other side hot potatoe LeBron just made 1 of 2 FTs... we all know you are Shaq jocker and hate all 206 bones of Kob but I do enjoy you're desperate attempts to grasp at anything tho... What I sole sir you, son.
Regarding the Ray Allen three, he didn't get the rebound that led to the shot ... so I just disregarded your entire point there. That said, LeBron has three Finals MVPs for a reason. The fact that one of his teammates hit an important shot doesn't change anything. If you want to really examine teammate contribution to rings, I don't think the discussion will reflect kindly on your sacred cow.
But you really do a disservice to Super Dave with these weak acknowledgements that you make (bleep) up, you understand that, yeah?
Last edited by the association on Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
No...its not....how is that any different then what I said.....we traded to get Kobe in the draft
When you trade to get someone in the draft, that means you trade for the pick, then draft the player. That's not what happened in 1996. Charlotte drafted the player, after which we traded for the player. It matters. Many individuals who counts themselves among his fanbase apparently don't know the actual details of Kobe's acquisition. In fact, I'd say most don't seem to understand what went down 20+ years ago. But that's the fact of the matter: he was drafted by Charlotte, after which we traded for him. If that's what you meant, great. But that's not what you wrote, and I simply clarified your comment in my postscript.
If you think Jerry West didn't draft that pick at 13 behalf of Hornets, you really do not have a clue how NBA or sports draft works. West and Sonny orchestrated the whole thing from #8 pick down. Calipari and rest of NBA insiders have admitted to all this btw. Kids are so dense these days. Easy to manipulate using their hate. Trump has reached this hateful demographic effectively. Tsk tsk... West Virignia coal mining has f-ed so many brains... _________________ Alltime lineup: Magic | Kobe | MJ | Hakeem | KAJ
No...its not....how is that any different then what I said.....we traded to get Kobe in the draft
When you trade to get someone in the draft, that means you trade for the pick, then draft the player. That's not what happened in 1996. Charlotte drafted the player, after which we traded for the player. It matters. Many individuals who counts themselves among his fanbase apparently don't know the actual details of Kobe's acquisition. In fact, I'd say most don't seem to understand what went down 20+ years ago. But that's the fact of the matter: he was drafted by Charlotte, after which we traded for him. If that's what you meant, great. But that's not what you wrote, and I simply clarified your comment in my postscript.
If you think Jerry West didn't draft that pick at 13 behalf of Hornets, you really do not have a clue how NBA or sports draft works. West and Sonny orchestrated the whole thing from #8 pick down. Calipari and rest of NBA insiders have admitted to all this btw. Kids are so dense these days. Easy to manipulate using their hate. Trump has reached this hateful demographic effectively. Tsk tsk...
Pre-arrangement of the Charlotte pick in the event that Kobe remained on the board is irrelevant. We didn't draft him. Charlotte did. We then traded for him. Everything else is unsavory, to be honest, and doesn't reflect well on your projection of Kobe, incidentally.
Yet, the 2 times that his team needed the most clutch shots of his life, it was Ray Allen and Kyrie that saved him from being an 1-ring pony.
Stats are good only with context or else they can easily be manipulated to support any argument. ESPN is the king of this tactic.
This is the dagger right here.
Just as Fisher and Horry saved Kobe from losing out on a couple of rings. Surprise, it takes a team to win a title. That is why using titles in individual comparisons is so dumb.
Do you honestly think that if we'd lost game 4 against the Magic that they would have beaten us? Seriously?
I honestly think we lose to the Kings if not for Horry's clutch shot. And to the Spurs if not for Fish outdoing TD's clutch shot.
Horry shot... last I checked was not g7 literally last shot of the game so it's pure speculation what woulda coulda happened. Now, Kyrie doesn't bail LBJ out in that shot, it's a fact that LBJ is at 2 rings. Ray doesn't grab that rebound and hit that 3, it's again a guarantee that LBJ is at 1 ring.
(We didn't win a ring the yr Fish hit that .4 shot... sorry to ruin you BS spin party... even after his retirement the Kobe haters running strong. Love it)
The score was tied at 89 prior to Kyrie's basket with a minute or so left in the game. LeBron had scored the previous 8 points for the Cavaliers, including the six straight points that brought them from four down to two up before Klay's basket tied the game at 89. Of course, LeBron plays both ends of the court, so he also foreclosed on Golden State's best chance for points in the final few minutes with "the block". In case you missed it, here it is:
From those facts, you've concluded that without Kyrie's shot, the Cavaliers would definitively have lost the game and the series? Please explain ...
Funny you didn't comment on the Jesus Shuttlesworth shot. Please explain...
So Kyrie misses, game is tied w/ 53 sec left at Oakland with the entire playbook open and a 2 wins the game... with the best shooters now open to driving for a 2.... on the other side hot potatoe LeBron just made 1 of 2 FTs... we all know you are Shaq jocker and hate all 206 bones of Kob but I do enjoy you're desperate attempts to grasp at anything tho... What I sole sir you, son.
Where were those best shooters in the final four minutes of the game? I mean, other than missing every single shot (nine in a row)?
Curry miss
Thompson miss
Iguodala miss
Green miss
Iguodala miss
Curry miss
Curry miss
Curry miss
Speights miss
But you said "it's a fact" that LeBron's at two rings if Kyrie doesn't hit that shot. So again, please explain how the "fact" comes about ... how is it a fact? Wait, let guess ...
Did Super Dave Osborne tell you and the other listener of Bubba the Love Sponge that he overheard the ghost of John Wooden mentioning it at a supposed breakfast, a fourth-party quote that nobody else would embarrass themselves to validate?
Last edited by the association on Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 25 Jul 2013 Posts: 9577 Location: Salem, OR
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:31 pm Post subject:
I understand that Ray's three was one of the clutchest shots of all time, but do people forget Lebron's dagger against the Spurs in game 7 after Duncan missed that bunny, which would've tied the game? Or the fact that Lebron had one of the greatest finals performances ever this year?
I understand that Ray's three was one of the clutchest shots of all time, but do people forget Lebron's dagger against the Spurs in game 7 after Duncan missed that bunny, which would've tied the game? Or the fact that Lebron had one of the greatest finals performances ever this year?
Or how about the fact that LeBron had a triple double and 16 (bleep) points in the fourth quarter of the Game 6 in question against San Antonio (a final stanza that they began 7 points down), including a critical three with 20 seconds left in the 4Q to pull the Heat within 2 points before Allen's three and OT. Of that 16 points, only 1 came from the charity stripe - he earned that (bleep). Of course, that's not "clutch" because it's not a couple of high scoring efforts in non-competitive (winning 4 - 0 and 4 - 0 isn't competitive, y'all) conference semifinal and conference final round series, or a bunch of rebounds and free throws against the mighty Celtics to sweep a 6/24 performance in an NBA Finals Game 7 under the carpet.
The worst ... the absolute worst (bleep) fan subgroup in history.
Last edited by the association on Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
No...its not....how is that any different then what I said.....we traded to get Kobe in the draft
When you trade to get someone in the draft, that means you trade for the pick, then draft the player. That's not what happened in 1996. Charlotte drafted the player, after which we traded for the player. It matters. Many individuals who counts themselves among his fanbase apparently don't know the actual details of Kobe's acquisition. In fact, I'd say most don't seem to understand what went down 20+ years ago. But that's the fact of the matter: he was drafted by Charlotte, after which we traded for him. If that's what you meant, great. But that's not what you wrote, and I simply clarified your comment in my postscript.
If you think Jerry West didn't draft that pick at 13 behalf of Hornets, you really do not have a clue how NBA or sports draft works. West and Sonny orchestrated the whole thing from #8 pick down. Calipari and rest of NBA insiders have admitted to all this btw. Kids are so dense these days. Easy to manipulate using their hate. Trump has reached this hateful demographic effectively. Tsk tsk...
Pre-arrangement of the Charlotte pick in the event that Kobe remained on the board is irrelevant. We didn't draft him. Charlotte did. We then traded for him. Everything else is unsavory, to be honest, and doesn't reflect well on your projection of Kobe, incidentally.
You're splitting hairs. West made a deal with Charlotte that if Kobe were available they would pick him and immediately trade him to the Lakers. I don't see how that's different than Charlotte officially trading the pick to the Lakers 30 seconds before the draft and letting West officially pick him. The key to me is the pick and the trade were done simultaneously, not sequentially; if West hadn't made the deal, Charlotte wouldn't have picked him, so it really was West's draft pick.
In the same way, Lebron was technically traded from Cleveland to Miami, but he really left as a free agent. After it was clear Lebron was leaving, Miami agreed to trade him, which got Miami a draft pick and got Lebron a little more salary.
No...its not....how is that any different then what I said.....we traded to get Kobe in the draft
When you trade to get someone in the draft, that means you trade for the pick, then draft the player. That's not what happened in 1996. Charlotte drafted the player, after which we traded for the player. It matters. Many individuals who counts themselves among his fanbase apparently don't know the actual details of Kobe's acquisition. In fact, I'd say most don't seem to understand what went down 20+ years ago. But that's the fact of the matter: he was drafted by Charlotte, after which we traded for him. If that's what you meant, great. But that's not what you wrote, and I simply clarified your comment in my postscript.
If you think Jerry West didn't draft that pick at 13 behalf of Hornets, you really do not have a clue how NBA or sports draft works. West and Sonny orchestrated the whole thing from #8 pick down. Calipari and rest of NBA insiders have admitted to all this btw. Kids are so dense these days. Easy to manipulate using their hate. Trump has reached this hateful demographic effectively. Tsk tsk...
Pre-arrangement of the Charlotte pick in the event that Kobe remained on the board is irrelevant. We didn't draft him. Charlotte did. We then traded for him. Everything else is unsavory, to be honest, and doesn't reflect well on your projection of Kobe, incidentally.
You're splitting hairs. West made a deal with Charlotte that if Kobe were available they would pick him and immediately trade him to the Lakers. I don't see how that's different than Charlotte officially trading the pick to the Lakers 30 seconds before the draft and letting West officially pick him. The key to me is the pick and the trade were done simultaneously, not sequentially; if West hadn't made the deal, Charlotte wouldn't have picked him, so it really was West's draft pick.
In the same way, Lebron was technically traded from Cleveland to Miami, but he really left as a free agent. After it was clear Lebron was leaving, Miami agreed to trade him, which got Miami a draft pick and got Lebron a little more salary.
Dude, give it a rest ... it wasn't a simultaneous transaction. 15 days isn't simultaneous on any planet ...
Transactions
June 26, 1996: Drafted by the Charlotte Hornets in the 1st round (13th pick) of the 1996 NBA Draft.
July 11, 1996: Traded by the Charlotte Hornets to the Los Angeles Lakers for Vlade Divac.
U r right. He did publicly ask to be traded throughout his career, but he didn't actually get traded at any point in time, nor did he ever leave in free agency. So very clearly my point still stands that kobe had to make due with what he was provided. Anything else? You couldn't see through the "transparency" of my post on that one to see the overall point? or did you really think such a petty correction actually made a relevant difference to the overall point of my argument? At least the claim on your part wasnt completely presumptive for once, so that's great progress for you!
It never ceases to amaze me when someone else throws (bleep) out into the wind, and then says "You know what I meant!" when the wind blows the (bleep) back into their face. It happens too often in real life, too. Personally, I try not to do that because I don't enjoy (bleep) in my face. And if I'm not having a stroke or suffering in some fit of intellectual torpor, why distort the facts and then expect a mulligan ... ?
I gave u credit for your correction lol. What else do u want? Does it make the point of my argument any less true? U were correct and i was incorrect on an insignificant and irrelevant point. Lol hooray. I definitely don't liken some stuff on the Internet to feces on my face. I don't know how much being right on a forum means to you that you associate it to something as extreme as feces on your face, but I personally don't mind being wrong, as long as it helps me arrive at some sort of truth. I do wish you could provide something a bit more useful in that regard but if being wrong is as traumatic for u as feces on one's face, then your limitations in this discussion suddenly makes perfect sense and is completely understandable.
Insignificant and irrelevant? You lied. You intentionally lied, and that lie was central to your argument. And when you were called on the lie, you attempted to move the goalpost and downplay the significance of the lie. Yeah, no ... you can try to pivot on the (bleep) metaphor all you want, but it doesn't recover whatever stature you believe you brought to the discussion in the first place. It's not the fact of being wrong that's so distasteful. It's the fact of purposefully propagating a lie in a really weak attempt to preserve the reality distortion field ... that's what's so distasteful.
Lol I lied? How do you know my intentions? so much so as to even claim the purpose of my claims? How was your correction central to my argument when the point "lebron left his team and joined superstars while kobe didnt" still stands regardless if kobe expressed dissatisfcation with his situation. Is it possible i forgot or miswrote? or can you prove i definitively lied?
Distasteful? Lol. To whom? You? How is the subjectivity of personal taste relevant to this discussion? More importantly, why is your taste of any concern to me? Perhaps that unfavorable taste you are experiencing is that crap in the wind you claim to be so familiar with? But going by the seemingly infinite abundance of baseless claims and false assumptions youve expressed, it's no surprise why you're so familiar with crap in the wind and how it relates to one's face.
Last edited by Lakers_Jester on Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
U r right. He did publicly ask to be traded throughout his career, but he didn't actually get traded at any point in time, nor did he ever leave in free agency. So very clearly my point still stands that kobe had to make due with what he was provided. Anything else? You couldn't see through the "transparency" of my post on that one to see the overall point? or did you really think such a petty correction actually made a relevant difference to the overall point of my argument? At least the claim on your part wasnt completely presumptive for once, so that's great progress for you!
It never ceases to amaze me when someone else throws (bleep) out into the wind, and then says "You know what I meant!" when the wind blows the (bleep) back into their face. It happens too often in real life, too. Personally, I try not to do that because I don't enjoy (bleep) in my face. And if I'm not having a stroke or suffering in some fit of intellectual torpor, why distort the facts and then expect a mulligan ... ?
I gave u credit for your correction lol. What else do u want? Does it make the point of my argument any less true? U were correct and i was incorrect on an insignificant and irrelevant point. Lol hooray. I definitely don't liken some stuff on the Internet to feces on my face. I don't know how much being right on a forum means to you that you associate it to something as extreme as feces on your face, but I personally don't mind being wrong, as long as it helps me arrive at some sort of truth. I do wish you could provide something a bit more useful in that regard but if being wrong is as traumatic for u as feces on one's face, then your limitations in this discussion suddenly makes perfect sense and is completely understandable.
Insignificant and irrelevant? You lied. You intentionally lied, and that lie was central to your argument. And when you were called on the lie, you attempted to move the goalpost and downplay the significance of the lie. Yeah, no ... you can try to pivot on the (bleep) metaphor all you want, but it doesn't recover whatever stature you believe you brought to the discussion in the first place. It's not the fact of being wrong that's so distasteful. It's the fact of purposefully propagating a lie in a really weak attempt to preserve the reality distortion field ... that's what's so distasteful.
Lol I lied? How do you know my intentions? so much so as to even claim the purpose of my claims? How was your correction central to my argument when the point "lebron left his team and joined superstars while kobe didnt" still stands regardless if kobe expressed dissatisfcation with his situation. Is it possible i forgot or miswrote? or can you prove i difinitively lied?
Distasteful? Lol. To whom? You? How is the subjectivity of personal taste relevant to this discussion? More importantly, why is your taste of any concern to me? Perhaps that unfavorable taste you are experiencing is that crap in the wind you claim to be so familiar with? But going by the seemingly infinite abundance of baseless claims and false assumptions youve expressed, it's no surprise why you're so familiar with crap in the wind and how it relates to one's face.
So you've got nothing? I'm thoroughly unastonished ...
No...its not....how is that any different then what I said.....we traded to get Kobe in the draft
When you trade to get someone in the draft, that means you trade for the pick, then draft the player. That's not what happened in 1996. Charlotte drafted the player, after which we traded for the player. It matters. Many individuals who counts themselves among his fanbase apparently don't know the actual details of Kobe's acquisition. In fact, I'd say most don't seem to understand what went down 20+ years ago. But that's the fact of the matter: he was drafted by Charlotte, after which we traded for him. If that's what you meant, great. But that's not what you wrote, and I simply clarified your comment in my postscript.
If you think Jerry West didn't draft that pick at 13 behalf of Hornets, you really do not have a clue how NBA or sports draft works. West and Sonny orchestrated the whole thing from #8 pick down. Calipari and rest of NBA insiders have admitted to all this btw. Kids are so dense these days. Easy to manipulate using their hate. Trump has reached this hateful demographic effectively. Tsk tsk...
Pre-arrangement of the Charlotte pick in the event that Kobe remained on the board is irrelevant. We didn't draft him. Charlotte did. We then traded for him. Everything else is unsavory, to be honest, and doesn't reflect well on your projection of Kobe, incidentally.
You're splitting hairs. West made a deal with Charlotte that if Kobe were available they would pick him and immediately trade him to the Lakers. I don't see how that's different than Charlotte officially trading the pick to the Lakers 30 seconds before the draft and letting West officially pick him. The key to me is the pick and the trade were done simultaneously, not sequentially; if West hadn't made the deal, Charlotte wouldn't have picked him, so it really was West's draft pick.
In the same way, Lebron was technically traded from Cleveland to Miami, but he really left as a free agent. After it was clear Lebron was leaving, Miami agreed to trade him, which got Miami a draft pick and got Lebron a little more salary.
Dude, give it a rest ... it wasn't a simultaneous transaction. 15 days isn't simultaneous on any planet ...
Transactions
June 26, 1996: Drafted by the Charlotte Hornets in the 1st round (13th pick) of the 1996 NBA Draft.
July 11, 1996: Traded by the Charlotte Hornets to the Los Angeles Lakers for Vlade Divac.
Again, technically you're right. The Lakers worked out a trade. Charlotte picked Kobe for them. However, they were unable to immediately complete the trade because they had to work out some details with Divac.
But it's not like Charlotte drafted Kobe, and then the Lakers called them up two weeks later, asking about getting him.
So let's end the semantics silliness, quit worrying about what label we put on this, and just leave it at this: We acquired Kobe by arranging for Charlotte to draft him for us.
Now, Kyrie doesn't bail LBJ out in that shot, it's a fact that LBJ is at 2 rings. Ray doesn't grab that rebound and hit that 3, it's again a guarantee that LBJ is at 1 ring.:
Nothing's guaranteed. If Kyrie misses that shot, maybe Curry takes the ball down the court and hits a 3-pointer. Or maybe Curry gets the rebound, Lebron steals the ball from him, and Lebron hits a 3-pointer.
If Allen misses the shot, maybe Miami loses. Or maybe the Heat get the rebound and someone else hits a 3-pointer.
We can create lots of imaginary scenarios for either situation. Your guess about would have happened is just a guess.
No...its not....how is that any different then what I said.....we traded to get Kobe in the draft
When you trade to get someone in the draft, that means you trade for the pick, then draft the player. That's not what happened in 1996. Charlotte drafted the player, after which we traded for the player. It matters. Many individuals who counts themselves among his fanbase apparently don't know the actual details of Kobe's acquisition. In fact, I'd say most don't seem to understand what went down 20+ years ago. But that's the fact of the matter: he was drafted by Charlotte, after which we traded for him. If that's what you meant, great. But that's not what you wrote, and I simply clarified your comment in my postscript.
Lmao are you splitting hairs here in an attempt to appear to have more insight than other fans? The Lakers worked Kobe out despite not having a top-20 pick. If you don't think the Hornets drafted Kobe on behalf of the Lakers, then it isn't fans who don't remember what happened 20 years ago, but, in fact, that you are unable to read into context and connect rather obvious dots.
No...its not....how is that any different then what I said.....we traded to get Kobe in the draft
When you trade to get someone in the draft, that means you trade for the pick, then draft the player. That's not what happened in 1996. Charlotte drafted the player, after which we traded for the player. It matters. Many individuals who counts themselves among his fanbase apparently don't know the actual details of Kobe's acquisition. In fact, I'd say most don't seem to understand what went down 20+ years ago. But that's the fact of the matter: he was drafted by Charlotte, after which we traded for him. If that's what you meant, great. But that's not what you wrote, and I simply clarified your comment in my postscript.
If you think Jerry West didn't draft that pick at 13 behalf of Hornets, you really do not have a clue how NBA or sports draft works. West and Sonny orchestrated the whole thing from #8 pick down. Calipari and rest of NBA insiders have admitted to all this btw. Kids are so dense these days. Easy to manipulate using their hate. Trump has reached this hateful demographic effectively. Tsk tsk...
Pre-arrangement of the Charlotte pick in the event that Kobe remained on the board is irrelevant. We didn't draft him. Charlotte did. We then traded for him. Everything else is unsavory, to be honest, and doesn't reflect well on your projection of Kobe, incidentally.
You're splitting hairs. West made a deal with Charlotte that if Kobe were available they would pick him and immediately trade him to the Lakers. I don't see how that's different than Charlotte officially trading the pick to the Lakers 30 seconds before the draft and letting West officially pick him. The key to me is the pick and the trade were done simultaneously, not sequentially; if West hadn't made the deal, Charlotte wouldn't have picked him, so it really was West's draft pick.
In the same way, Lebron was technically traded from Cleveland to Miami, but he really left as a free agent. After it was clear Lebron was leaving, Miami agreed to trade him, which got Miami a draft pick and got Lebron a little more salary.
Dude, give it a rest ... it wasn't a simultaneous transaction. 15 days isn't simultaneous on any planet ...
Transactions
June 26, 1996: Drafted by the Charlotte Hornets in the 1st round (13th pick) of the 1996 NBA Draft.
July 11, 1996: Traded by the Charlotte Hornets to the Los Angeles Lakers for Vlade Divac.
One of the reasons the trade took a while to be officially completed is because, like activeverb noted, there were details which had to be worked out with Divac. Details that included Divac not wanting to be traded and saying he may have considered retirement if he were traded from LA. This isn't a case of people not remembering history, but of you purposely being obstreperous for the sake of winning an internet argument on technicalities.
No...its not....how is that any different then what I said.....we traded to get Kobe in the draft
When you trade to get someone in the draft, that means you trade for the pick, then draft the player. That's not what happened in 1996. Charlotte drafted the player, after which we traded for the player. It matters. Many individuals who counts themselves among his fanbase apparently don't know the actual details of Kobe's acquisition. In fact, I'd say most don't seem to understand what went down 20+ years ago. But that's the fact of the matter: he was drafted by Charlotte, after which we traded for him. If that's what you meant, great. But that's not what you wrote, and I simply clarified your comment in my postscript.
If you think Jerry West didn't draft that pick at 13 behalf of Hornets, you really do not have a clue how NBA or sports draft works. West and Sonny orchestrated the whole thing from #8 pick down. Calipari and rest of NBA insiders have admitted to all this btw. Kids are so dense these days. Easy to manipulate using their hate. Trump has reached this hateful demographic effectively. Tsk tsk...
Pre-arrangement of the Charlotte pick in the event that Kobe remained on the board is irrelevant. We didn't draft him. Charlotte did. We then traded for him. Everything else is unsavory, to be honest, and doesn't reflect well on your projection of Kobe, incidentally.
You're splitting hairs. West made a deal with Charlotte that if Kobe were available they would pick him and immediately trade him to the Lakers. I don't see how that's different than Charlotte officially trading the pick to the Lakers 30 seconds before the draft and letting West officially pick him. The key to me is the pick and the trade were done simultaneously, not sequentially; if West hadn't made the deal, Charlotte wouldn't have picked him, so it really was West's draft pick.
In the same way, Lebron was technically traded from Cleveland to Miami, but he really left as a free agent. After it was clear Lebron was leaving, Miami agreed to trade him, which got Miami a draft pick and got Lebron a little more salary.
Dude, give it a rest ... it wasn't a simultaneous transaction. 15 days isn't simultaneous on any planet ...
Transactions
June 26, 1996: Drafted by the Charlotte Hornets in the 1st round (13th pick) of the 1996 NBA Draft.
July 11, 1996: Traded by the Charlotte Hornets to the Los Angeles Lakers for Vlade Divac.
One of the reasons the trade took a while to be officially completed is because, like activeverb noted, there were details which had to be worked out with Divac. Details that included Divac not wanting to be traded and saying he may have considered retirement if he were traded from LA. This isn't a case of people not remembering history, but of you purposely being obstreperous for the sake of winning an internet argument on technicalities.
I'm done expecting accuracy from some in the community anyway. The actual quote that was the genesis for this diversion was the following:
JH from Hemet: Bottom line.....Kobe has never left the team that traded to get him in the draft......period
We didn't get him in the draft. Period, full stop. Based on the information that's leaked out over the years (albeit, very little from either of the GMs actually involved in the matter), I've never disputed that Jerry West maneuvered to pre-arrange the framework of a tentative deal with Bob Bass prior to the draft. The principal point of the deal involved our acquisition of Kobe Bryant's draft rights in the event that he remained on the board for Charlotte to acquire him in the 1996 NBA draft. And yes, it took time to work through Vlade's threats to retire, before he finally consented to the trade. But Kobe wore a Hornets hat the night of the draft. The trade occurred more than two weeks after the 1996 NBA draft. It didn't happen simultaneously, as AV tried to assert yesterday. It also didn't happen on draft day AFTER the draft, the way the Chris Webber for Anfernee Hardway trade went down several years earlier. Again, the transaction happened 15 days later. Everything you just read: dead-on facts.
That said, we didn't draft Kobe Bryant. I know accuracy and facts don't really matter to those on the opposing end of the argument because others, like me, who do hold accuracy and facts in higher regard are supposed to just "know what they meant" or accept that it's "basically the same thing". But again, we didn't draft him. We didn't "get him in the draft". And you (and anyone else who wants to play sloppy wth facts) can argue that I'm refusing to concede the point, but it doesn't matter. On a technical basis, you're wrong. And on a functional basis, you're still wrong. However, I'm not going to respond to anything further on this point. But if you're inclined to continue defending a sloppy misstatement of fact, feel free to take it up with Kobe himself (circa 12/29/2015):
No...its not....how is that any different then what I said.....we traded to get Kobe in the draft
When you trade to get someone in the draft, that means you trade for the pick, then draft the player. That's not what happened in 1996. Charlotte drafted the player, after which we traded for the player. It matters. Many individuals who counts themselves among his fanbase apparently don't know the actual details of Kobe's acquisition. In fact, I'd say most don't seem to understand what went down 20+ years ago. But that's the fact of the matter: he was drafted by Charlotte, after which we traded for him. If that's what you meant, great. But that's not what you wrote, and I simply clarified your comment in my postscript.
If you think Jerry West didn't draft that pick at 13 behalf of Hornets, you really do not have a clue how NBA or sports draft works. West and Sonny orchestrated the whole thing from #8 pick down. Calipari and rest of NBA insiders have admitted to all this btw. Kids are so dense these days. Easy to manipulate using their hate. Trump has reached this hateful demographic effectively. Tsk tsk...
Pre-arrangement of the Charlotte pick in the event that Kobe remained on the board is irrelevant. We didn't draft him. Charlotte did. We then traded for him. Everything else is unsavory, to be honest, and doesn't reflect well on your projection of Kobe, incidentally.
You're splitting hairs. West made a deal with Charlotte that if Kobe were available they would pick him and immediately trade him to the Lakers. I don't see how that's different than Charlotte officially trading the pick to the Lakers 30 seconds before the draft and letting West officially pick him. The key to me is the pick and the trade were done simultaneously, not sequentially; if West hadn't made the deal, Charlotte wouldn't have picked him, so it really was West's draft pick.
In the same way, Lebron was technically traded from Cleveland to Miami, but he really left as a free agent. After it was clear Lebron was leaving, Miami agreed to trade him, which got Miami a draft pick and got Lebron a little more salary.
Dude, give it a rest ... it wasn't a simultaneous transaction. 15 days isn't simultaneous on any planet ...
Transactions
June 26, 1996: Drafted by the Charlotte Hornets in the 1st round (13th pick) of the 1996 NBA Draft.
July 11, 1996: Traded by the Charlotte Hornets to the Los Angeles Lakers for Vlade Divac.
One of the reasons the trade took a while to be officially completed is because, like activeverb noted, there were details which had to be worked out with Divac. Details that included Divac not wanting to be traded and saying he may have considered retirement if he were traded from LA. This isn't a case of people not remembering history, but of you purposely being obstreperous for the sake of winning an internet argument on technicalities.
I'm done expecting accuracy from some in the community anyway. The actual quote that was the genesis for this diversion was the following:
JH from Hemet: Bottom line.....Kobe has never left the team that traded to get him in the draft......period
We didn't get him in the draft. Period, full stop. Based on the information that's leaked out over the years (albeit, very little from either of the GMs actually involved in the matter), I've never disputed that Jerry West maneuvered to pre-arrange the framework of a tentative deal with Bob Bass prior to the draft. The principal point of the deal involved our acquisition of Kobe Bryant's right in the event that he remained on the board for Charlotte to acquire him in the 1996 NBA draft. And yes, it took time to work through Vlade's threats to retire, before he finally consented to the trade. But the trade occurred more than two weeks after the 1996 NBA draft. Everything you just read: dead-on facts.
That said, we didn't draft Kobe Bryant. I know accuracy and facts don't really matter to those on the other end of the argument because others, like me, who do hold accuracy and facts in higher regard are supposed to just "know what they meant" or accept that it's "basically the same thing". But again, we didn't draft him. We didn't "get him in the draft". And you (and anyone else who wants to play sloppy wth facts) can argue that I'm refusing to concede the point, but it doesn't matter. On a technical basis, you're wrong. And on a functional basis, you're still wrong. However, I'm not going to respond to anything further on this point. But if you're inclined to continue defending a sloppy misstatement of fact, feel free to take it up with Kobe himself (circa 12/29/2015):
Lol I've come across your type on this board before. Facts without context are useless. Which is all you're championing right now. But, please, continue doing so. Your history on this thread alone clearly portends a long-lasting tenure here.
Edit: And how exactly does your link prove anything?
“I’d never say anything like that to a player,” Cowens told the Globe by phone Tuesday. “I didn’t know him and he didn’t know me. It wasn’t about him not being able to play for us. It was just [a deal] was already worked out."
This supports everything you're arguing against. But, please, fight the good fight of facts and truth. lol
Last edited by KBH on Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:08 am; edited 2 times in total
Lol I've come across your type on this board before. Facts without context are useless.
LOL - check
Opinions or feelings masquerading as the superior part of an argument over facts - check
Yeah, I've come across your type, too.
One more time. Lol thanks for providing me a quote that supports my position. You are good with facts after all. My apologies.
Quote:
“I’d never say anything like that to a player,” Cowens told the Globe by phone Tuesday. “I didn’t know him and he didn’t know me. It wasn’t about him not being able to play for us. It was just [a deal] was already worked out.".
No...its not....how is that any different then what I said.....we traded to get Kobe in the draft
When you trade to get someone in the draft, that means you trade for the pick, then draft the player. That's not what happened in 1996. Charlotte drafted the player, after which we traded for the player. It matters. Many individuals who counts themselves among his fanbase apparently don't know the actual details of Kobe's acquisition. In fact, I'd say most don't seem to understand what went down 20+ years ago. But that's the fact of the matter: he was drafted by Charlotte, after which we traded for him. If that's what you meant, great. But that's not what you wrote, and I simply clarified your comment in my postscript.
If you think Jerry West didn't draft that pick at 13 behalf of Hornets, you really do not have a clue how NBA or sports draft works. West and Sonny orchestrated the whole thing from #8 pick down. Calipari and rest of NBA insiders have admitted to all this btw. Kids are so dense these days. Easy to manipulate using their hate. Trump has reached this hateful demographic effectively. Tsk tsk...
Pre-arrangement of the Charlotte pick in the event that Kobe remained on the board is irrelevant. We didn't draft him. Charlotte did. We then traded for him. Everything else is unsavory, to be honest, and doesn't reflect well on your projection of Kobe, incidentally.
You're splitting hairs. West made a deal with Charlotte that if Kobe were available they would pick him and immediately trade him to the Lakers. I don't see how that's different than Charlotte officially trading the pick to the Lakers 30 seconds before the draft and letting West officially pick him. The key to me is the pick and the trade were done simultaneously, not sequentially; if West hadn't made the deal, Charlotte wouldn't have picked him, so it really was West's draft pick.
In the same way, Lebron was technically traded from Cleveland to Miami, but he really left as a free agent. After it was clear Lebron was leaving, Miami agreed to trade him, which got Miami a draft pick and got Lebron a little more salary.
Dude, give it a rest ... it wasn't a simultaneous transaction. 15 days isn't simultaneous on any planet ...
Transactions
June 26, 1996: Drafted by the Charlotte Hornets in the 1st round (13th pick) of the 1996 NBA Draft.
July 11, 1996: Traded by the Charlotte Hornets to the Los Angeles Lakers for Vlade Divac.
One of the reasons the trade took a while to be officially completed is because, like activeverb noted, there were details which had to be worked out with Divac. Details that included Divac not wanting to be traded and saying he may have considered retirement if he were traded from LA. This isn't a case of people not remembering history, but of you purposely being obstreperous for the sake of winning an internet argument on technicalities.
I'm done expecting accuracy from some in the community anyway. The actual quote that was the genesis for this diversion was the following:
JH from Hemet: Bottom line.....Kobe has never left the team that traded to get him in the draft......period
We didn't get him in the draft. Period, full stop. Based on the information that's leaked out over the years (albeit, very little from either of the GMs actually involved in the matter), I've never disputed that Jerry West maneuvered to pre-arrange the framework of a tentative deal with Bob Bass prior to the draft. The principal point of the deal involved our acquisition of Kobe Bryant's draft rights in the event that he remained on the board for Charlotte to acquire him in the 1996 NBA draft. And yes, it took time to work through Vlade's threats to retire, before he finally consented to the trade. But Kobe wore a Hornets hat the night of the draft. The trade occurred more than two weeks after the 1996 NBA draft. It didn't happen simultaneously, as AV tried to assert yesterday. It also didn't happen on draft day AFTER the draft, the way the Chris Webber for Anfernee Hardway trade went down several years earlier. Again, the transaction happened 15 days later. Everything you just read: dead-on facts.
That said, we didn't draft Kobe Bryant. I know accuracy and facts don't really matter to those on the opposing end of the argument because others, like me, who do hold accuracy and facts in higher regard are supposed to just "know what they meant" or accept that it's "basically the same thing". But again, we didn't draft him. We didn't "get him in the draft". And you (and anyone else who wants to play sloppy wth facts) can argue that I'm refusing to concede the point, but it doesn't matter. On a technical basis, you're wrong. And on a functional basis, you're still wrong. However, I'm not going to respond to anything further on this point. But if you're inclined to continue defending a sloppy misstatement of fact, feel free to take it up with Kobe himself (circa 12/29/2015):
Kobe Bryant was selected by one team......we traded Vlade for Kobe who gives a crap when final paperwork of crossing T's and dotting I's actually happened......it was discussed and consumated DURING THE DRAFT.
Your arguing pointless items of when things actually happened date wise
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
even after his retirement the Kobe haters running strong. Love it)
