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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
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 Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:03 am Post subject: |
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It's a reminder we desperately need the real NBA season to start.
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iceberg01
Star Player
Joined: 15 Apr 2001
Posts: 2324
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| the association wrote: | | iceberg01 wrote: | Uhhhh... Back on OT, please?
It's going to be interesting to watch, for sure. Right now, Russell and Ingram are kinda being earmarked to be "the guys". And Ingram is still figuring out his NBA game.
It's still real hard to tell, but given his effectiveness at shooting 3's, I think Russell maxes out as a 22-24ppg, 6-7apg, 4-5rpg 1.8 spg player, which is nice. But it's also not what carries a championship team.
Ingram? REALLY hard to tell because of his age, but I just have a Kawai Leonard-type feel from him: he seems like the kind of guy, even at Duke, that was happy to be a complimentary player, not THE GUY. Hope I'm wrong on this one. But of almost all of the great defenders I can think of (Pippen, Kawai, Lebron), with the exception of MJ, Peyton & Kobe, the defense-oriented players usually don't have "it" when it comes to the killer instinct on the Court.
My gut tells me that we have two VERY GOOD, perhaps, perennial All-Stars in Ingram & Russell. But I DON'T think we have that SUPER DOMINANT prospect (i.e., Kobe, Magic, Shaq, Wilt, etc.) that's just a force of nature that singlehandedly can uplift your franchise.
Hell, maybe it's a different era of basketball. Guess we'll just see in the years ahead..... |
That's an interesting way of assessing Ingram's prospects. Perhaps it's just me, but I'll be thrilled if Ingram can offer the following profile after his first five seasons in the NBA: Finals MVP at 22 years old, youngest back-to-back DPOY award winner in NBA history, All NBA and All Defense first team nods at 24 years old, along with runner-up to the only unanimous R/S MVP in history. All before the age of 25 years old. Then again, you also appear to be suggesting that LeBron James doesn't have "it". And also, you're arguing, I presume, that the 2005 - 2007 and 2011 - 2016 seasons (nine of 'em, in total) in LA never actually happened (using the "these aren't the droids you're looking for" method, I guess). Unless that's your definition of "singlehandedly uplifting a franchise" ...
Now that I'm done having fun at the expense of a series of foolish comments, allow me to say this: If Brandon Ingram proves to be 85% as effective as Kawhi Leonard, the pick was a great one. And if he proves to be 70% as effective as LeBron James, the pick was an excellent one. |
lol @ "foolish comments". Time for school, son. Or daughter. But nevertheless, young buck...
I'm comparing Kawai Leonard to Magic Johnson. Kobe Bryant. Shaquille O'Neal. CLEAR Franchise-altering talents that could SINGLEHANDLEDLY elevate a franchise to the top. You take Kawai Leonard. I'll take any of the former. Kawai STILL doesn't look like the type that can carry a team, which is my point. Would you take Kawai over Magic, Kobe or Shaq? If so, let me have some of what you're smoking. 
And, point out to me the part in my post where I said I wouldn't be happy if Ingram turned out to be Kawai Leonard. I'll wait.... And, Lebron? Now you're stretching the premise to its snapping point ... You're lying to yourself if you don't think that Lebron (whom INGRAM IS NOT), hasn't had issues carrying his squad in critical moments of his career.
Put Kawai Leonard on Orlando. Do they become a playoff team? I don't think so. Put him on Philly. Any meaningful change? No. But what he is is an excellent complimentary piece. But not a true #1 player.
My only point was to say that the next Lakers mega-star that can carry the franchise may not be on the team yet.
I welcome intelligent debate. But not stupidity. You can disagree, but do so with respect next time, KID. Pick a fight on an ESPN board or something. Lesson over. Let me know when you're ready for the next one. And the next level of reading comprehension. Dueces.
Last edited by iceberg01 on Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:17 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Vancouver Fan
Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 17740
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| RCS926 wrote: | Wait...what is the thread about again?  |
#thegawd #witness #checkmystats
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KindCrippler2000
Franchise Player
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 15821
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Ingram? REALLY hard to tell because of his age, but I just have a Kawai Leonard-type feel from him: he seems like the kind of guy, even at Duke, that was happy to be a complimentary player, not THE GUY. Hope I'm wrong on this one. But of almost all of the great defenders I can think of (Pippen, Kawai, Lebron), with the exception of MJ, Peyton & Kobe, the defense-oriented players usually don't have "it" when it comes to the killer instinct on the Court.
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God forbid Ingram accomplishes all of this before he turns 25:
NBA champion (2014)
NBA Finals MVP (2014)
NBA All-Star (2016)
All-NBA First Team (2016)
2× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2015, 2016)
2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2015, 2016)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2014)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA steals leader (2015)
Lead Spurs to a franchise best 67-15 record (2015-2016)
Finish second in MVP voting (2016)
Yeah, that would really suck. |
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yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | Quote: |
Ingram? REALLY hard to tell because of his age, but I just have a Kawai Leonard-type feel from him: he seems like the kind of guy, even at Duke, that was happy to be a complimentary player, not THE GUY. Hope I'm wrong on this one. But of almost all of the great defenders I can think of (Pippen, Kawai, Lebron), with the exception of MJ, Peyton & Kobe, the defense-oriented players usually don't have "it" when it comes to the killer instinct on the Court.
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God forbid Ingram accomplishes all of this before he turns 25:
NBA champion (2014)
NBA Finals MVP (2014)
NBA All-Star (2016)
All-NBA First Team (2016)
2× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2015, 2016)
2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2015, 2016)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2014)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2012)
NBA steals leader (2015)
Second in MVP voting (2016)
Yeah, that would really suck. |
Same discussion when folks say that Randle should emulate Dray Green. As if emulating the game of a guy who is an all-NBA/star/defense/champion/Olympian was a bad thing.
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iceberg01
Star Player
Joined: 15 Apr 2001
Posts: 2324
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| Shaq. Magic. Kobe. >>> Kawai. Read what I posted previously. The reading comp of LG is going down the toilet. Smh. |
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splashmtn
Star Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Posts: 3961
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Ingram right now is Tayshaun prince. with slightly less lateral agility on defense. and no post game yet.
Ingram makes the right plays, moves the ball along without trying to pound it in the ground trying to make things happen. Which is good for people who can make things happen , but terrible for those who can't. He seems to play solid team defense and is a pretty decent man defender for a super tall/long 19 yr old rookie that's still growing into his body.
With that being said offensively or at least perimeter scoring. Ingram is like 3 years ahead of T.prince and has more upside in that dept. |
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Laker_Dynasty_01
Star Player
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 1703
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| the association wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | To be fair, LeBron hasn't passed up on clutch shots since the 2011 Finals. He took command of Games 6 & 7 in the 2012 ECF. He led his team to a comeback before the Ray Allen shot. He basically broke the Bulls' backs in Game 4 of the 2015 conference semis. Last year he hit two threes and cut to the basket for the championship sealing play, scoring seven of the last ten points IIRC.
But before 2012 the criticism was more deserved, he played close to the vest with the game on the line, shooting only when he could overpower his man or get to the rim. Aside from the desperation shot against Orlando, I remember him passing rather than taking the jumper himself prior to his first ring. |
What about Game 5 vs. Detroit in the 2007 Eastern Conference Finals? I think most people without an ax to grind when it comes to LeBron have his performance that night in the Top 10 postseason performances in NBA history. And a "super clutch" one, at that. There are many others, like Game 4 vs. Indiana in 2012, or the defensive suffocation of MVP Derrick Rose vs. the Bulls in 2011, or the countless pivotal, "clutch" plays he has made over the years in crucial moments having nothing to do with a "jumper" (e.g., "the block" in 2016). But that personal 2007 destruction of the perennial contender Pistons ... here, it's like it never even happened. |
(What happened in the Finals? We at LG forget how Kobe played in the 2004 playoffs for the same reason)
Forgot how many jumpers LeBron hit over them in that game... but this wasn't the same Pistons team that contended realistically for titles from 2004-06. Ben was gone and CWebb couldn't jump by then, so Tay had to back off LeBron and give him the jumper, as the back line defense couldn't really challenge him if he gets past Prince. But the next series showed LeBron had a lot to learn; he had very little post game and his footwork stunk. Bowen made Booby Gibson look like the Cavs' offensive star when he guarded LeBron. Part of being able to perform in crunch time is having a move and countermove for every possible situation, which LeBron didn't have yet (see 2011 Finals, there are times where he tries to switch hands on a layup and misses everything).
P.S. Charlotte needed a C badly in 1996...if the logo of the league calls you before the draft and offers you the seventh best Center for your 13th pick, you'd draft your team doctor if Jerry asked. Kobe refused to work out for all but 2 teams. There was some mutual interest with the Nets, but they preferred Kittles because he was older and "ready". No other team was looking to risk their pick on a guy who refused workouts, was unproven in most people's eyes, and was reportedly considering Italy if LA or Philadelphia didn't get him. Charlotte wouldn't have used the pick on a position they were stacked at without a pending deal in place with a trusted executive for a player at a position they needed. There were good Centers still on the board. The Webber for Penny deal was simple because neither were under contract, it was a swap of draft rights. With Vlade, he had to agree to report for a physical, or the trade couldn't be completed in principle. If he was out of the country, a la Gary Payton in 2004, it would help explain the delay in communication. |
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SuperboyReformed
Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 4083
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| iceberg01 wrote: | | the association wrote: | | iceberg01 wrote: | Uhhhh... Back on OT, please?
It's going to be interesting to watch, for sure. Right now, Russell and Ingram are kinda being earmarked to be "the guys". And Ingram is still figuring out his NBA game.
It's still real hard to tell, but given his effectiveness at shooting 3's, I think Russell maxes out as a 22-24ppg, 6-7apg, 4-5rpg 1.8 spg player, which is nice. But it's also not what carries a championship team.
Ingram? REALLY hard to tell because of his age, but I just have a Kawai Leonard-type feel from him: he seems like the kind of guy, even at Duke, that was happy to be a complimentary player, not THE GUY. Hope I'm wrong on this one. But of almost all of the great defenders I can think of (Pippen, Kawai, Lebron), with the exception of MJ, Peyton & Kobe, the defense-oriented players usually don't have "it" when it comes to the killer instinct on the Court.
My gut tells me that we have two VERY GOOD, perhaps, perennial All-Stars in Ingram & Russell. But I DON'T think we have that SUPER DOMINANT prospect (i.e., Kobe, Magic, Shaq, Wilt, etc.) that's just a force of nature that singlehandedly can uplift your franchise.
Hell, maybe it's a different era of basketball. Guess we'll just see in the years ahead..... |
That's an interesting way of assessing Ingram's prospects. Perhaps it's just me, but I'll be thrilled if Ingram can offer the following profile after his first five seasons in the NBA: Finals MVP at 22 years old, youngest back-to-back DPOY award winner in NBA history, All NBA and All Defense first team nods at 24 years old, along with runner-up to the only unanimous R/S MVP in history. All before the age of 25 years old. Then again, you also appear to be suggesting that LeBron James doesn't have "it". And also, you're arguing, I presume, that the 2005 - 2007 and 2011 - 2016 seasons (nine of 'em, in total) in LA never actually happened (using the "these aren't the droids you're looking for" method, I guess). Unless that's your definition of "singlehandedly uplifting a franchise" ...
Now that I'm done having fun at the expense of a series of foolish comments, allow me to say this: If Brandon Ingram proves to be 85% as effective as Kawhi Leonard, the pick was a great one. And if he proves to be 70% as effective as LeBron James, the pick was an excellent one. |
lol @ "foolish comments". Time for school, son. Or daughter. But nevertheless, young buck...
I'm comparing Kawai Leonard to Magic Johnson. Kobe Bryant. Shaquille O'Neal. CLEAR Franchise-altering talents that could SINGLEHANDLEDLY elevate a franchise to the top. You take Kawai Leonard. I'll take any of the former. Kawai STILL doesn't look like the type that can carry a team, which is my point. Would you take Kawai over Magic, Kobe or Shaq? If so, let me have some of what you're smoking.
And, point out to me the part in my post where I said I wouldn't be happy if Ingram turned out to be Kawai Leonard. I'll wait.... And, Lebron? Now you're stretching the premise to its snapping point ... You're lying to yourself if you don't think that Lebron (whom INGRAM IS NOT), hasn't had issues carrying his squad in critical moments of his career.
Put Kawai Leonard on Orlando. Do they become a playoff team? I don't think so. Put him on Philly. Any meaningful change? No. But what he is is an excellent complimentary piece. But not a true #1 player.
My only point was to say that the next Lakers mega-star that can carry the franchise may not be on the team yet.
I welcome intelligent debate. But not stupidity. You can disagree, but do so with respect next time, KID. Pick a fight on an ESPN board or something. Lesson over. Let me know when you're ready for the next one. And the next level of reading comprehension. Dueces. |
I'm with you on all this. kawhi is not in that league, no way. and you have to compare them relative to the times. magic came into the league when the nba was at a really different place than it is today. magic, shaq, kobe are not just the team's best players. that's (arguably) all that kawhi is. he benefits reputation wise by being a spur and all that "fundamental" hype that goes with it. all he is is a seemingly good attitude guy, listens to the coach, plays smart, plays unselfish. these are not legendary qualities. they are just....nice to have. and for the gift that is his hands, if he were a higher flyer, that would really make him much better. but he's not. he is a better player than lebron, i'll give you that. |
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