White liberal parents in NY are irate that their children are being sent to majority Black and Latino schools in new rezoning plans
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4stargeneralbulldog
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:27 am    Post subject: White liberal parents in NY are irate that their children are being sent to majority Black and Latino schools in new rezoning plans

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Parents currently zoned to send their children to two of the most coveted and crowded public elementary schools on the Upper West Side—PS 199 on West 70th Street and PS 452 on West 77th Street—have spent the summer and early fall voicing their opposition to Department of Education proposals to redraw school zone lines. "I've heard about kids who were uninvited to playdates because their parents are in favor [of the rezoning]," one PS 452 parent told us back in July.

Now the committee of parent volunteers that will ultimately approve or veto the rezoning has come out in favor of its most controversial components: A plan to move PS 452 sixteen blocks south to a larger campus near the NYCHA-run Amsterdam Houses—lengthening commute times for many families—and another to remove some of the buildings in the sprawling Lincoln Towers co-op community from PS 199 (ranked as one of the nation's top schools in 2013) to PS 191, a school with historically low test scores and, until recently, a contested "persistently dangerous" state ranking.

"Our position is that this is the plan, and they [the DOE] can either stand with us or not," Joe Fiordaliso, president of Community Education Council 3 (CEC3), the voting parent group, told the NY Times.

This week's letter [PDF] to the DOE from CEC3 also urges the city to add a third Lincoln Towers building to the PS 191 district, 205 West End Avenue, in addition to the proposed 165 and 185 West End Avenue buildings. According to CEC3, anything less could result in under-enrollment at PS 191 next fall, which is moving into a brand new campus at the nearby Riverside Center, a luxury residential high-rise.

As for moving PS 452 south, CEC3 noted that the school's principal is in full support of the move to a larger building, and that it would behoove the city to place a high-performing school into the building that PS 191 is vacating (the move has also been endorsed by a contingent of PS 452 parents).

The DOE has said that rezoning is crucial in Manhattan's District 3. PS 452 and PS 199 are less racially and socioeconomically diverse than the rest of the city—about two thirds of the student body is white at each school, and only about 10% of students qualify for free lunch. For comparison, black and Latino students make up 81% of PS 191, where 73% of students qualify for free lunch.

But Lincoln Towers and PS 452 parents, some of whom moved to the West 70s specifically to attend PS 452 or PS 199, have dug in their heels. "It seems that the people living closest to 199 are being punished by being sent to another school just because they want to somehow diversify the student body," posited Ziv Arazi, a parent currently in rezoning limbo, last month.

Lincoln Towers residents have also protested that the current plan insures PS 199 zoning for yet-to-be-built luxury condominiums. City Council Member Helen Rosenthal praised CEC3's plan, which she said "allows for the creation of three strong integrated schools in the southern portion of the district."

All of the rezoning plans up for final vote in November exclude the northern portion of District 3 west of Morningside Park, and CEC3 is urging the DOE to turn its attention to the struggling schools in Harlem—issues include under-enrollment and low test scores—as soon as the rezoning drama to the south is resolved.

But some parents worry that the damage has already been done—that focusing the overcrowding and diversity conversation on the southern part of the district has allowed privileged families to dominate the conversation. (A proposal to syphon some families from PS 199's zone last year was rejected outright amid UWS family opposition.)

Maia Gelman, a parent at PS 75 on 96th Street, is a member of NYC Public School Parents for Equity and Desegregation, a group that has been pushing for "controlled choice" in District 3. The model, which CEC3 rejected this week, aims to ensure an even distribution of high and low income, special needs, and English language-learning students across all uptown schools.

"The current three-year rezoning process has delivered the message that the CEC and DOE are primarily responsive to the concerns of privileged families," Gelman's group wrote in a letter Wednesday. "The right of other students to an equal and adequate education seems an afterthought."

The CEC says it hopes to vote on the final proposal early next month.

"We value the CEC's leadership and partnership, and will continue to solicit feedback, host meetings and engage in robust conversations as we work to submit a final proposal that best serves all of the students and families in District 3," a DOE spokeswoman stated.


http://gothamist.com/2016/10/19/uws_school_integrate_zoning.php
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:38 am    Post subject:

When I clicked on the link the title of the article was "Controversial Plan To Integrate UWS Schools Gets Major Endorsement."
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:39 am    Post subject:

I'm really shocked. No I'm not.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:49 am    Post subject:

To be factually accurate, there are two very highly rated schools and one poorly rated school in areas contiguous to each other. The two highly rated schools are overly white compared to city demographics, and the poorly rated school is overly minority. Additionally, the economic demographics are similarly skewed.

The plan is to improve diversity by shifting some of the poorer and minority kids into the two better schools, but in order to do that some of the kids in the good schools have to be shifted to the less desirable school. The parents of the kids in the better schools don't want their kids to be sent to a worse school.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:56 am    Post subject:

Let's put it into different terms. Let's say you are a parent and you buy a house in a very expensive neighborhood, partly because of the great schools. Let's say you live on the edge of the school district, and that a block or two over from you, the kids go to one of the worst schools in the city. If the city proposed to move the district line over so that you now fell into the other district, no matter what the reason, would you think this was a good idea?

That's the crux of it.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:11 am    Post subject:

^ Aren't the money going into schools based on property taxes? If they start shifting things around, wouldn't the poor school start seeing more $ and (hopefully) begin to improve?

Regardless though, shouldn't the reason matter? To me, it just seems like it's real easy to ask for someone else to be the agent of change but once it starts to inconvenience (be it in whatever form that may be) me, I'm up in arms. This is an obvious generality but I see that sort of behavior a LOT.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:32 am    Post subject:

I would be mad too if I went out my way to get my kids in a good school just to have someone then force them to go to a much worse school... and I'm black.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:36 am    Post subject:

I'd be really pissed if I bought an expensive house for the school district just to see the lines get re-drawn.
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lakersken80
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:38 am    Post subject:

Isn't this why rich parents send their kids to private schools? They don't want their kids destinies to be set by some public school administrator.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:42 am    Post subject:

What horrible people. How dare they concern themselves with the quality of their children' education.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:49 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
What horrible people. How dare they concern themselves with the quality of their children' education.


Dat's Wacist.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:00 am    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
^ Aren't the money going into schools based on property taxes? If they start shifting things around, wouldn't the poor school start seeing more $ and (hopefully) begin to improve?

Regardless though, shouldn't the reason matter? To me, it just seems like it's real easy to ask for someone else to be the agent of change but once it starts to inconvenience (be it in whatever form that may be) me, I'm up in arms. This is an obvious generality but I see that sort of behavior a LOT.


The bolded above? That process can take a really long time, JB. If you have one or two kids, you might not be willing to wait for the educational environment to catch-up to the new tax base.

Around here, the residents of some communities pay a massive premium to live in a community with a lights-out school system. As in, and I hesitate to write this for fear of #humblebrag backlash ... prices typically involve several hundred thousands of dollars in market value premium associated with the school district alone. It's become the status quo. People examine boundary maps with a keen eye to ensure their kid lands in the elementary school of their choice ... before ever putting in an offer for a property that would barely find 1/2 the appraisal five miles to the East.

Personally, I place great value on diversity, so I appreciate the fact that my son is surrounded in school by plenty of children from diverse backgrounds, races, ethnicities, cultures, and everything on the spectrum when it comes to socio-economic status, too. I don't love the lack of real diversity in his particular cohort, but his overall educational environment reflects the world I want his lenses to acclimate to as he's growing up.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:18 am    Post subject:

Vouchers
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:03 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
^ Aren't the money going into schools based on property taxes? If they start shifting things around, wouldn't the poor school start seeing more $ and (hopefully) begin to improve?

Regardless though, shouldn't the reason matter? To me, it just seems like it's real easy to ask for someone else to be the agent of change but once it starts to inconvenience (be it in whatever form that may be) me, I'm up in arms. This is an obvious generality but I see that sort of behavior a LOT.
It happens all the time. I'm liberal until it hits my doorstep and starts to bother me personally. That's how it usually goes. "now wait one minute there..you can't do that."

This goes into a deeper issue with racism in general. If everyone were treated 100% equally to each other. Those that were treated slightly better to a lot better would feel the shift going in the negative direction. This would bother them a lot. Is it fair? Yes. Does it feel good to all parties involved? No
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:09 pm    Post subject:

audioaxes wrote:
I would be mad too if I went out my way to get my kids in a good school just to have someone then force them to go to a much worse school... and I'm black.
You're missing the point.

Why did you go out of your way to begin with? Because the schools in your area were crappy. Why? because odds are, the original school your kids went to was in a lower income less white area.

majority black/brown neighborhood usually = less income usually = worse schools

majority white neighborhood usually = higher incomes usually = better schools

unless you want your city/state/country to forever see those that are black/brown to be less than's you will have to do something drastically different. and with drastic change comes heart ache and pain. Thats just life.

If you mix the schools/areas. The quality of each school will be similar to one another. And if the money is spread around the overall quality of all schools will be higher for every student. But it will not happen over night. It will take some time and that transition period is going to be awful for all parties involved.

Remember segregation and desegregation of schools in america. Same situation for the very same reason.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:11 pm    Post subject:

the association wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
^ Aren't the money going into schools based on property taxes? If they start shifting things around, wouldn't the poor school start seeing more $ and (hopefully) begin to improve?

Regardless though, shouldn't the reason matter? To me, it just seems like it's real easy to ask for someone else to be the agent of change but once it starts to inconvenience (be it in whatever form that may be) me, I'm up in arms. This is an obvious generality but I see that sort of behavior a LOT.


The bolded above? That process can take a really long time, JB. If you have one or two kids, you might not be willing to wait for the educational environment to catch-up to the new tax base.

Around here, the residents of some communities pay a massive premium to live in a community with a lights-out school system. As in, and I hesitate to write this for fear of #humblebrag backlash ... prices typically involve several hundred thousands of dollars in market value premium associated with the school district alone. It's become the status quo. People examine boundary maps with a keen eye to ensure their kid lands in the elementary school of their choice ... before ever putting in an offer for a property that would barely find 1/2 the appraisal five miles to the East.

Personally, I place great value on diversity, so I appreciate the fact that my son is surrounded in school by plenty of children from diverse backgrounds, races, ethnicities, cultures, and everything on the spectrum when it comes to socio-economic status, too. I don't love the lack of real diversity in his particular cohort, but his overall educational environment reflects the world I want his lenses to acclimate to as he's growing up.
Thats a real sacrifice but it will pay off for your kid in the end.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:16 pm    Post subject:

but they're liberal..
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:20 pm    Post subject:

splashmtn wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
I would be mad too if I went out my way to get my kids in a good school just to have someone then force them to go to a much worse school... and I'm black.
You're missing the point.

Why did you go out of your way to begin with? Because the schools in your area were crappy. Why? because odds are, the original school your kids went to was in a lower income less white area.

majority black/brown neighborhood usually = less income usually = worse schools

majority white neighborhood usually = higher incomes usually = better schools


unless you want your city/state/country to forever see those that are black/brown to be less than's you will have to do something drastically different. and with drastic change comes heart ache and pain. Thats just life.

If you mix the schools/areas. The quality of each school will be similar to one another. And if the money is spread around the overall quality of all schools will be higher for every student. But it will not happen over night. It will take some time and that transition period is going to be awful for all parties involved.

Remember segregation and desegregation of schools in america. Same situation for the very same reason.


Throwing more money at schools hasn't proven to improve them. Money is just a single factor in a school's success.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:27 pm    Post subject:

DuncanIdaho wrote:
splashmtn wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
I would be mad too if I went out my way to get my kids in a good school just to have someone then force them to go to a much worse school... and I'm black.
You're missing the point.

Why did you go out of your way to begin with? Because the schools in your area were crappy. Why? because odds are, the original school your kids went to was in a lower income less white area.

majority black/brown neighborhood usually = less income usually = worse schools

majority white neighborhood usually = higher incomes usually = better schools


unless you want your city/state/country to forever see those that are black/brown to be less than's you will have to do something drastically different. and with drastic change comes heart ache and pain. Thats just life.

If you mix the schools/areas. The quality of each school will be similar to one another. And if the money is spread around the overall quality of all schools will be higher for every student. But it will not happen over night. It will take some time and that transition period is going to be awful for all parties involved.

Remember segregation and desegregation of schools in america. Same situation for the very same reason.


Throwing more money at schools hasn't proven to improve them. Money is just a single factor in a school's success.


Parental involvement is another.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:29 pm    Post subject:

rwongega wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
splashmtn wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
I would be mad too if I went out my way to get my kids in a good school just to have someone then force them to go to a much worse school... and I'm black.
You're missing the point.

Why did you go out of your way to begin with? Because the schools in your area were crappy. Why? because odds are, the original school your kids went to was in a lower income less white area.

majority black/brown neighborhood usually = less income usually = worse schools

majority white neighborhood usually = higher incomes usually = better schools


unless you want your city/state/country to forever see those that are black/brown to be less than's you will have to do something drastically different. and with drastic change comes heart ache and pain. Thats just life.

If you mix the schools/areas. The quality of each school will be similar to one another. And if the money is spread around the overall quality of all schools will be higher for every student. But it will not happen over night. It will take some time and that transition period is going to be awful for all parties involved.

Remember segregation and desegregation of schools in america. Same situation for the very same reason.


Throwing more money at schools hasn't proven to improve them. Money is just a single factor in a school's success.


Parental involvement is another.


Parental involvement, child nourishment, the list goes on.

I'd actually argue that our entire teaching system needs an overhaul too.

You see articles like this:

Quote:
Michelle Apperson, Teacher Of The Year, Gets Lay-Off Notice From Sacramento School District Amid Budget Cuts

Apperson is one of nearly 400 Sacramento City Unified teachers who received lay-off notices last month due to budget cuts. Neither her nine years at Sutterville Elementary School nor her best-teacher honor could shield her from state law, which carries a “last in, first out” policy, requiring that teachers be laid off by seniority — starting with the most recently hired.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/15/michelle-apperson-teacher_n_1601015.html


And you realize that the whole Teacher's union/tenure system is a joke.

We need to be hiring and retaining our best teachers -- pay them better, and promote/keep by merit.

Quote:
Still, the authors don't advocate simply throwing money at the problem of education, either. "Money matters, but it matters how it's spent," said Jackson of Northwestern.

The group found that the increased funding had the greatest effect if it was used to raise teachers' salaries, reduce class sizes or lengthen the school year. That conclusion accords with other research finding that better teachers can have profound effects on how much students learn, since the schools with the smallest classes and the highest salaries can attract the most talented instructors.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/01/20/when-public-schools-get-more-money-students-do-better/


Last edited by DuncanIdaho on Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:31 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
Vouchers


Sure, take a problem (too much stratification in education quality) and make it worse.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:18 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
Vouchers


Sure, take a problem (too much stratification in education quality) and make it worse.


It gives parents the ability to make positive change. It gives them more control. It also gives schools accountability.

It's not about trying to protect the broken system. It's about trying to protect the students.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:25 pm    Post subject:

Reflexx wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
Vouchers


Sure, take a problem (too much stratification in education quality) and make it worse.


It gives parents the ability to make positive change. It gives them more control. It also gives schools accountability.

It's not about trying to protect the broken system. It's about trying to protect the students.


No, it gives parents some choice, but it really gives schools that don't have to take everybody the ability to pad their bottom lines (and this will benefit the wealthy and the devoutly religious most), and leaves the poorest and most special needs stuck in defunded schools.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:49 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Reflexx wrote:
Vouchers


Sure, take a problem (too much stratification in education quality) and make it worse.


It gives parents the ability to make positive change. It gives them more control. It also gives schools accountability.

It's not about trying to protect the broken system. It's about trying to protect the students.


No, it gives parents some choice, but it really gives schools that don't have to take everybody the ability to pad their bottom lines (and this will benefit the wealthy and the devoutly religious most), and leaves the poorest and most special needs stuck in defunded schools.


The schools suck with or without funding.

More schools will pop up to compete with failing schools.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:57 pm    Post subject:

DuncanIdaho wrote:
I'd be really pissed if I bought an expensive house for the school district just to see the lines get re-drawn.


Lines are drawn and re drawn then drawn again....I'd be pissed at myself if I moved somewhere with an expectation of permanent lines.
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