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dao Star Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2013 Posts: 5572
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:50 pm Post subject: Deng at the 4, Ingram at the 3 |
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We havent seen this pairing much. Deng is being played mostly as a 'placeholder' SF while Ingram develops. Lost in all this is that Deng's best position is the stretch 4. He's much more effective at the 4 than the 3, especially in a system predicated on shooting and spacing. The Elephant in the room is that we have two young PF's taking up all the minutes at the 4. This is highly unfortunate though, since our best PF isn't getting any minutes at PF.
Imagine how much better balanced that starting unit would be with
Russell
Young
Ingram
Deng
Mozgov
than with
Russell
Lou/Young
Deng
Randle
Mozgov
option A seems like a no brainer to me Better spacing, better shooting, better defense, and higher team IQ overall. |
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Thugnomoe Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Posts: 14660 Location: unfortunately not Los Angeles anymore
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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Ingram is good with the ball in his hands..
he's way more effective.. especially as he learns the game.
what about randle at the 5? |
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MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26383
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Deng has no purpose playing the 4 on this team, he's a horrible defender at the 4 and THAT is why he's here. He is a better defender at the 3 and because of all the off ball movement we're doing and working on he's still going to be getting those open opportunities.
We need Deng's defense at the 3 which is where he's the best defender, his offense is better at the 4 but we don't have an offense first mentality on this team, Luke put the kibosh on it despite the style we're playing.
Again, Luol's Freestyle explains it all
https://vine.co/v/56ZTZDFbMBt |
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P.K. Retired Number
Joined: 10 Jul 2003 Posts: 29726
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Thugnomoe wrote: | Ingram is good with the ball in his hands..
he's way more effective.. especially as he learns the game.
what about randle at the 5? |
Have you watched Randle play the 5? He gets destroyed on defense. absolutely destroyed.
If, and that's a big IF, Randle ever develops into a small ball 5 it's going to take several years for that to happen. _________________ LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI |
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22 Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Apr 2013 Posts: 17063
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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We'll probably see this lineup at times, but I don't think it's the best one to start. |
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dao Star Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2013 Posts: 5572
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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Thugnomoe wrote: | Ingram is good with the ball in his hands..
he's way more effective.. especially as he learns the game.
what about randle at the 5? | Ingram is awesome running the offense when they put the ball in his hands. Great decision maker, has only 1 turnover so far in the preason. Allowing Ingram to control the ball more also allows Russell to focus on scoring and stop turning the ball over. |
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MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26383
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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dao wrote: | Thugnomoe wrote: | Ingram is good with the ball in his hands..
he's way more effective.. especially as he learns the game.
what about randle at the 5? | Ingram is awesome running the offense when they put the ball in his hands. Great decision maker, has only 1 turnover so far in the preason. Allowing Ingram to control the ball more also allows Russell to focus on scoring and stop turning the ball over. |
So this has become another version of
"Let (so and so) be the point guard cause Russell's really a 2"
I see... except it's Ingram now instead of Clarkson.
Alrighty then. |
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dao Star Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2013 Posts: 5572
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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MJST wrote: | Deng has no purpose playing the 4 on this team, he's a horrible defender at the 4 and THAT is why he's here. He is a better defender at the 3 and because of all the off ball movement we're doing and working on he's still going to be getting those open opportunities.
We need Deng's defense at the 3 which is where he's the best defender, his offense is better at the 4 but we don't have an offense first mentality on this team, Luke put the kibosh on it despite the style we're playing.
Again, Luol's Freestyle explains it all
https://vine.co/v/56ZTZDFbMBt | could you please post some data to back that up? I find it extremely hard to believe that replacing Randle at 4 with Deng at 4 is anything but a sizable upgrade in team defense. |
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dao Star Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2013 Posts: 5572
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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MJST wrote: | dao wrote: | Thugnomoe wrote: | Ingram is good with the ball in his hands..
he's way more effective.. especially as he learns the game.
what about randle at the 5? | Ingram is awesome running the offense when they put the ball in his hands. Great decision maker, has only 1 turnover so far in the preason. Allowing Ingram to control the ball more also allows Russell to focus on scoring and stop turning the ball over. |
So this has become another version of
"Let (so and so) be the point guard cause Russell's really a 2"
I see... except it's Ingram now instead of Clarkson.
Alrighty then. | It's called having a complimentary ball-handler for your scoring PG. Curry had Draymond Green share a lot of the PG duties and allowed Curry to focus on scoring 30 ppg. |
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Fastbreak32 Star Player
Joined: 11 Oct 2011 Posts: 4746
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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MJST wrote: | dao wrote: | Thugnomoe wrote: | Ingram is good with the ball in his hands..
he's way more effective.. especially as he learns the game.
what about randle at the 5? | Ingram is awesome running the offense when they put the ball in his hands. Great decision maker, has only 1 turnover so far in the preason. Allowing Ingram to control the ball more also allows Russell to focus on scoring and stop turning the ball over. |
So this has become another version of
"Let (so and so) be the point guard cause Russell's really a 2"
I see... except it's Ingram now instead of Clarkson.
Alrighty then. |
It's sounding like that, MJST, huh?
How about both getting a chance to handle the ball and both getting a chance to play off ball. I hope Ingram gets more chances like he did last night, AND I hope he continues to develop in playing off ball, too.
Again, Russell doesn't focus on scoring. He focuses on burning the defense. Telling him to be predictable by focusing on scoring would restrict his best asset, his court awareness. _________________ LeBron, AD, & _________. Stay tuned.
"...there was a time when the Israelites were wandering in the desert and all of a sudden, bread came down from heaven,” Pelinka said. “That’s kind of what today feels like for us to have KCP join.” |
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Fastbreak32 Star Player
Joined: 11 Oct 2011 Posts: 4746
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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dao wrote: | MJST wrote: | dao wrote: | Thugnomoe wrote: | Ingram is good with the ball in his hands..
he's way more effective.. especially as he learns the game.
what about randle at the 5? | Ingram is awesome running the offense when they put the ball in his hands. Great decision maker, has only 1 turnover so far in the preason. Allowing Ingram to control the ball more also allows Russell to focus on scoring and stop turning the ball over. |
So this has become another version of
"Let (so and so) be the point guard cause Russell's really a 2"
I see... except it's Ingram now instead of Clarkson.
Alrighty then. | It's called having a complimentary ball-handler for your scoring PG. Curry had Draymond Green share a lot of the PG duties and allowed Curry to focus on scoring 30 ppg. |
That makes sense, but it doesn't necessarily mean that allows Curry to focus on scoring, as much as allow give the defense a different look. Just because you play off-ball doesn't mean you're going to score. You're still in triple threat mode. _________________ LeBron, AD, & _________. Stay tuned.
"...there was a time when the Israelites were wandering in the desert and all of a sudden, bread came down from heaven,” Pelinka said. “That’s kind of what today feels like for us to have KCP join.” |
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dao Star Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2013 Posts: 5572
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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Fastbreak32 wrote: | dao wrote: | MJST wrote: | dao wrote: | Thugnomoe wrote: | Ingram is good with the ball in his hands..
he's way more effective.. especially as he learns the game.
what about randle at the 5? | Ingram is awesome running the offense when they put the ball in his hands. Great decision maker, has only 1 turnover so far in the preason. Allowing Ingram to control the ball more also allows Russell to focus on scoring and stop turning the ball over. |
So this has become another version of
"Let (so and so) be the point guard cause Russell's really a 2"
I see... except it's Ingram now instead of Clarkson.
Alrighty then. | It's called having a complimentary ball-handler for your scoring PG. Curry had Draymond Green share a lot of the PG duties and allowed Curry to focus on scoring 30 ppg. |
That makes sense, but it doesn't necessarily mean that allows Curry to focus on scoring, as much as allow give the defense a different look. Just because you play off-ball doesn't mean you're going to score. You're still in triple threat mode. | agreed, this is how I should have phrased it. Russell playing off ball opens up some of his best scoring opportunities, and opportunities to get hockey assists when he decides not to shoot. Having a point-forward like Ingram allows Russell's game to be utilized more fully. It makes the offense more dynamic and less predictable when you have a point forward that frees up your PG to play off ball sometimes.
Now, add a stretch 4 in Deng to spread the floor? Now you're cooking with fire.
Last edited by dao on Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26383
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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I wouldn't make Ingram your primary ball handler if you're having Russell run sets off ball unless that's the play. As of right now both Clarkson and Randle are better at ball handling than Ingram is, and are better at making the defense collapse in order to make plays as well as be a primary ball handler while setting up Russell off ball.
Ingram could get there, but he's not a guy we want being our secondary ball handler a majority of the time in his first year. He's shown flashes, but he's not the guy you necessarily want to give that job to before he's played a true second of NBA basketball. I'm sure Ingram will have plenty of opportunities to showcase his playmaking ability, but if he's our secondary ball handler/passers next to Russell this season than something has gone horribly wrong. It'd be as wrong as some of the people that wanted Zubac to be our primary backup center.
Ingram is still learning the game and would struggle tremendously in a role that he shouldn't be in during his first year once he's played a team more than once.
So right now Ingram shouldn't have that much responsibility and we're bringing him along the way we are to give him tastes of these things, but we're also looking to maximize him at what he does best currently.
So as much as people want to hand the crown to the kid or will say "he played point guard in high school before his growth spurt! Thus he should be our secondary ball handler! look what he's done these last 2 pre-season games." they may want to pump their breaks on that and temper their expectations. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144464 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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Well Deng's best position isn't the 4, so that kind of changes the discussion. He was much better defensively at the 3, and that is why we brought him here. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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dao Star Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2013 Posts: 5572
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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MJST wrote: | I wouldn't make Ingram your primary ball handler if you're having Russell run sets off ball unless that's the play. As of right now both Clarkson and Randle are better at ball handling than Ingram is, and are better at making the defense collapse in order to make plays as well as be a primary ball handler while setting up Russell off ball.
Ingram could get there, but he's not a guy we want being our secondary ball handler a majority of the time in his first year. He's shown flashes, but he's not the guy you necessarily want to give that job to before he's played a true second of NBA basketball. I'm sure Ingram will have plenty of opportunities to showcase his playmaking ability, but if he's our secondary ball handler/passers next to Russell this season than something has gone horribly wrong. | I think his court awareness and point forward skill already exceed Randle's by a significant margin in the half court offense. His ability to shoot makes him mich more effective in that role, it adds an extra layer of pressure to the defense when the ball handler can shoot. |
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dao Star Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2013 Posts: 5572
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | Well Deng's best position isn't the 4, so that kind of changes the discussion. He was much better defensively at the 3, and that is why we brought him here. | yes, stretch 4 is Deng's most effective position. |
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KindCrippler2000 Franchise Player
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 15821
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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MJST wrote: | I wouldn't make Ingram your primary ball handler if you're having Russell run sets off ball unless that's the play. As of right now both Clarkson and Randle are better at ball handling than Ingram is, and are better at making the defense collapse in order to make plays as well as be a primary ball handler while setting up Russell off ball.
Ingram could get there, but he's not a guy we want being our secondary ball handler a majority of the time in his first year. He's shown flashes, but he's not the guy you necessarily want to give that job to before he's played a true second of NBA basketball. I'm sure Ingram will have plenty of opportunities to showcase his playmaking ability, but if he's our secondary ball handler/passers next to Russell this season than something has gone horribly wrong. It'd be as wrong as some of the people that wanted Zubac to be our primary backup center.
Ingram is still learning the game and would struggle tremendously in a role that he shouldn't be in during his first year once he's played a team more than once.
So right now Ingram shouldn't have that much responsibility and we're bringing him along the way we are to give him tastes of these things, but we're also looking to maximize him at what he does best currently.
So as much as people want to hand the crown to the kid or will say "he played point guard in high school before his growth spurt! Thus he should be our secondary ball handler! look what he's done these last 2 pre-season games." they may want to pump their breaks on that and temper their expectations. |
Don't understand this logic. For all intents and purposes, Ingram has played 7 games against legitimate NBA talent. These games don't count, but we're at the point where teams are playing their rotation players.
Who's better than him in the ball-handling/initiator department, really? His size gives him the unique ability to see over everyone and make passes that Russell normally wouldn't be able make. Ingram certainly made the case for himself against the possible best offensive and defensive team in the league last night, and I'd be surprised if Luke doesn't continue the experiment based on the results we saw these past two games. You're going against what Luke is doing, and what he'll continue to do.
Ingram's played guard his whole life. He had some point guard duties at duke -- it's his natural position, and even Coach K said he'd fit better as a guard in the NBA. It looks like that observation is spot on.
He's essentially a 6'10' guard that will be able to play all 5 positions in his prime. |
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ThePALakersFan Sixth Man
Joined: 28 Jul 2016 Posts: 58
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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The future of this team is russell and ingram, all the focus should be on putting them in position to succeed and get better. |
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greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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It will happen eventually. I don't see the rush in doing it now. The Lakers need to find out what they have in Nance and Randle first.
But mygod, the spacing and congestion in this starting lineup is atrocious. |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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nash Star Player
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 Posts: 8194
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Deng at the 4, Ingram at the 3 |
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dao wrote: |
Imagine how much better balanced that starting unit would be with
Russell
Young
Ingram
Deng
Mozgov
Better spacing, better shooting, better defense, and higher team IQ overall. |
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greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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So what do you do with Black, Nance and Randle? |
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adkindo Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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There is more going into the decision than Deng's best position. They need a solid smart vet to hold down that position until Ingram develops into a starter. As far as Deng, I have a very unpopular position with Lakers fans, I dont think he is an average starter at any position. I think he could have 2-3 more decent years off the bench, but he has lost a step for the beginning of the game, but by the end of his time on the court I have noticed he appears to have lost multiple steps. Again, I think Luke and Lakers will accept that to assure Ingram is developed properly.
I love Ingram and I am confident he will be an All-Star, but I didnt see what everyone else seemed to see last night....and I watched the game a 2nd time to review. Handling the ball seemed to help his game, because it gave him confidence to be aggressive, but his ball handling did not advance the team. He could not penetrate the defense most possessions or break down any level of the defense as the defenders easily contained him. He mostly just ended up tossing the ball back to beyond the 3 pnt line and resetting. Like I said, it helped him....but that is his problem to overcome....he has to figure out how to be aggressive off the ball, because the ball will mostly be in Russell's hands, and even Randles this year. His shot looked great, he got on the boards....great game.....but he has a ways to go before he will be able to be very effective from a team perspective with the ball mostly in his hands. |
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sonic the laker Star Player
Joined: 06 Oct 2013 Posts: 2063
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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greenfrog wrote: | It will happen eventually. I don't see the rush in doing it now. The Lakers need to find out what they have in Nance and Randle first.
But mygod, the spacing and congestion in this starting lineup is atrocious. |
I agree with the spacing problems the starting lineup faces, on the offensive end. That's one of the reasons for their slow starts. You have 2 guys, Randle and Mozgov, that like to play close to the basket, and when they step away, teams cheat off them, daring them to shoot. Funny thing is, Mozgov has shown more confidence in shooting jumpers, than Randle. If Randle truly works on that shot, and improves, it would alleviate a lot of problems, for him and the team as a whole. But, that's a big "if" at this point.....
ZOOM!!!!!!! |
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nash Star Player
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 Posts: 8194
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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adkindo wrote: | There is more going into the decision than Deng's best position. They need a solid smart vet to hold down that position until Ingram develops into a starter. As far as Deng, I have a very unpopular position with Lakers fans, I dont think he is an average starter at any position. I think he could have 2-3 more decent years off the bench, but he has lost a step for the beginning of the game, but by the end of his time on the court I have noticed he appears to have lost multiple steps. Again, I think Luke and Lakers will accept that to assure Ingram is developed properly.
I love Ingram and I am confident he will be an All-Star, but I didnt see what everyone else seemed to see last night....and I watched the game a 2nd time to review. Handling the ball seemed to help his game, because it gave him confidence to be aggressive, but his ball handling did not advance the team. He could not penetrate the defense most possessions or break down any level of the defense as the defenders easily contained him. He mostly just ended up tossing the ball back to beyond the 3 pnt line and resetting. Like I said, it helped him....but that is his problem to overcome....he has to figure out how to be aggressive off the ball, because the ball will mostly be in Russell's hands, and even Randles this year. His shot looked great, he got on the boards....great game.....but he has a ways to go before he will be able to be very effective from a team perspective with the ball mostly in his hands. |
Not taking a bad shot or turning the ball over trying to make a tough pass is a plus IMHO. Most of his passes are precise albeit not eye catching. |
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