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adkindo
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 Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| LakersRGolden wrote: |
Not to mention they know more about the offense then we do at this point. They should have been beating us to spots on O, waiting for us to catch up and they did. |
My response to this is not from my "expert" point of view, but more from my understanding from recent comments and discussions from those that have a little more "expert" knowledge base. The offensive sets that we are running and GSW is running, is mostly ran by the other 28 teams also. Sure there are tweaks and variations, but the separation comes in the quality of execution, ability to read & react, and continue through progressions of the schemes. I think were are basically focused on the execution and reads of the initial progressions, where as GSW easily is going through 3,4 or 5 progressions locating the optimal shot. If my understanding is accurate, then most teams would know our spots....but every action on defense simply creates a read and reaction on offense....if someone cheats or anticipates a spot, the proper read should locate the weakness created.
Like I said, I found the explanation very interesting, and it kind of gave me the football understanding I needed. Tons of college football teams run a spread offense, with traditional option runs in the playbook. In theory, every defense knows there will be a dive option, QB keeping the ball or pitching to a RB....and still if the QB executes correctly and reads the play properly, they should end up with positive yardage. |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| KindCrippler2000 wrote: |
1) Warriors defensive efficiency ratings show they were 4th in the league last season (above Boston): http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff. They were first the year prior to that: http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff/year/2015
2) Barnes was actually not a good defender last season. This is partially due to the ankle woes he suffered early on, and that affected his lateral movement on the court. In the games he did play, he was mainly the beneficiary of good team defense that featured Iggy, Livingston, Green, Bogut doing most of the dirty-work. Bogut clearly isn't what he once was, but that doesn't matter because they finished with their "death line-up", and Green was the true anchor of their defense. The only way the warriors drop in the defensive rankings this season is if Green gets injured. There's a reason he finished second in DPOY voting last season.
They've added Zaza, McGee, West, McCaw, Durant this season, which means they have more depth and versatility than last season. They've upgraded at nearly every position and you still believe they'll drop to the top 10? Unless Green gets hurt, you can all but guarantee they will be top 3-4 this time. |
Lets keep this simple, a friendly gentleman's bet...I project them in the 6-10 range, and you are projecting them at 1-4....we will call 5 a draw?
| KindCrippler2000 wrote: | 3) Ingram was listed as a guard/forward at Duke. We know he played some lead guard, though Coach K usually favored him at the 4 to take advantage of the size difference at that position.
I'll find the segment on Coach K saying guard is his natural position and post it. It's somewhere (maybe SS&R).
This was the most recent thing:
Q: On if he sees himself playing one position or multiple:
Ingram: I think with these top organizations — even when I got recruited by Coach K — he always told me I was position-less. So going into whatever organization I land (with), I know they’ll have a great coach that will see wherever I fit in, and wherever they fit me in is where I’ll play.
Q: On if he prides himself on being versatile enough to play several positions:
Ingram: Most definitely. I think being versatile is a part of this game nowadays. I think, with my body type and how tall I am and with the size I’m developing, I think it’s gonna be important for me to play different positions on the floor. |
As far are the source of Coach K comments, I was not asking in a "prove it" manner....I was just interested to read them. I never doubted he will and does have the ability to play multiple positions. I am asking what specific skills have caused the reaction to remove him from what has been considered his natural position to place him at the SG? I still see a player whose overall skills fit much better currently as a SF than SG. |
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KindCrippler2000
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: |
1) Warriors defensive efficiency ratings show they were 4th in the league last season (above Boston): http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff. They were first the year prior to that: http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff/year/2015
2) Barnes was actually not a good defender last season. This is partially due to the ankle woes he suffered early on, and that affected his lateral movement on the court. In the games he did play, he was mainly the beneficiary of good team defense that featured Iggy, Livingston, Green, Bogut doing most of the dirty-work. Bogut clearly isn't what he once was, but that doesn't matter because they finished with their "death line-up", and Green was the true anchor of their defense. The only way the warriors drop in the defensive rankings this season is if Green gets injured. There's a reason he finished second in DPOY voting last season.
They've added Zaza, McGee, West, McCaw, Durant this season, which means they have more depth and versatility than last season. They've upgraded at nearly every position and you still believe they'll drop to the top 10? Unless Green gets hurt, you can all but guarantee they will be top 3-4 this time. |
Lets keep this simple, a friendly gentleman's bet...I project them in the 6-10 range, and you are projecting them at 1-4....we will call 5 a draw?
| KindCrippler2000 wrote: | 3) Ingram was listed as a guard/forward at Duke. We know he played some lead guard, though Coach K usually favored him at the 4 to take advantage of the size difference at that position.
I'll find the segment on Coach K saying guard is his natural position and post it. It's somewhere (maybe SS&R).
This was the most recent thing:
Q: On if he sees himself playing one position or multiple:
Ingram: I think with these top organizations — even when I got recruited by Coach K — he always told me I was position-less. So going into whatever organization I land (with), I know they’ll have a great coach that will see wherever I fit in, and wherever they fit me in is where I’ll play.
Q: On if he prides himself on being versatile enough to play several positions:
Ingram: Most definitely. I think being versatile is a part of this game nowadays. I think, with my body type and how tall I am and with the size I’m developing, I think it’s gonna be important for me to play different positions on the floor. |
As far are the source of Coach K comments, I was not asking in a "prove it" manner....I was just interested to read them. I never doubted he will and does have the ability to play multiple positions. I am asking what specific skills have caused the reaction to remove him from what has been considered his natural position to place him at the SG? I still see a player whose overall skills fit much better currently as a SF than SG. |
Fair enough. I don't really care where the Warriors finish tbh. I do know they have been the model of good defensive efficiency these past few years. We know the contending teams in the league are usually good defensive ones. With the new additions of McCaw, Zaza, West, McGee, I don't see them dropping off.
As far as the skills showing Ingram can play guard position, I think we'll find that out as the sample size of games increases, though he has looked very sharp in the two games that Luke played him there.
Considering he was phenomenal against one of the best defensive teams, I'm looking forward to seeing if there will be a drop off against one of the worst defensive teams in the league in Phoenix tonight. I feel like he will only get better from this point.
Last edited by KindCrippler2000 on Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| KindCrippler2000 wrote: |
Considering he was phenomenal against one of the best defensive teams |
you had to get that line in there  |
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KindCrippler2000
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: |
Considering he was phenomenal against one of the best defensive teams |
you had to get that line in there |
One of the best means they could be top 10. Who knows...  |
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DzLaker
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | DzLaker wrote: | | What I'm seeing from him is that he may best project as a SG. |
What are you referring to? What skills do you see that project more at the #2 than the #3?
| DzLaker wrote: | | Given Luke's recent moves and comments and Coach K's comments, they may both agree. |
What comments from Luke and Coach K leads you to think he will be a SG? |
I was looking at his ball handling skills, his ability to make the right read and good decision making, his being more engaged when playing on ball, Coach K’s comments about his being a guard in the NBA, and Luke’s actions of giving him ball handling responsibilities and subsequent comments about the positive results, and of course the good outside shooting. All of that leads me to believe he may project best as a guard.
And since I don’t believe it will be a PG, I conclude he may be a future SG. But really it doesn’t matter since there is no discernable difference between a point SF and a NBA guard.
Also, I think it may be easier for the Lakers to find a star SF in free agency which could push him to SG. That’s a huge factor and wouldn’t be a problem given his versatility. |
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Megaton
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:58 am Post subject: |
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Regardless where you put Deng, I hope Ingram does start.
Not only do I think he's good enough (I mean he clearly is), I think he should be thrown to the fire. Him and Russell are clearly the future here. And now with Ingram not looking as raw as some thought he was, it would be both a great confidence booster and better chemistry building going forward with the young core on the court together more.
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| Assuming that Deng at the four is the Lakers' best lineup, it still doesn't mean that he has to start there. Players take a pounding guarding one position up at the four spot so they may want to deploy it selectively to preserve his health at his age and to provide a change of pace mid-game. |
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dao
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | | Assuming that Deng at the four is the Lakers' best lineup, it still doesn't mean that he has to start there. Players take a pounding guarding one position up at the four spot so they may want to deploy it selectively to preserve his health at his age and to provide a change of pace mid-game. |
He can start at PF and play some minutes with the second unit at SF.
say deng gets 18 PF minutes, 10 SF minutes.
Randle gets 20 PF minutes
Nance gets 10 PF minutes, 10 center minutes
Mozgov gets 26 C minutes
Leaving 12 backup C minutes for Black
Both Randle and Nance get 20 mpg, Black gets 13. If you want give the young PFs more PT, then give Black the short end of the stick, or reduce Mozgov's minutes. |
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Jim99187
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| Megaton wrote: | Regardless where you put Deng, I hope Ingram does start.
Not only do I think he's good enough (I mean he clearly is), I think he should be thrown to the fire. Him and Russell are clearly the future here. And now with Ingram not looking as raw as some thought he was, it would be both a great confidence booster and better chemistry building going forward with the young core on the court together more. |
agree. Ingram/DLO should be playing together. I would even play him at 2 this season |
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AFireInside619
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: |
So what do you do with Black, Nance and Randle? |
I agree with GT here. It's widely known in the NBA that Miami was better the second half of the season when they moved Deng to the 4. By moving Deng to the 4 and having Ingram playing the 3 our starting line-up is instantly improved defensively. Ingram is already a good defender, and the fact that he's so long, he can contest shots without jumping, resulting in less fouls. Plus our spacing on offense should be improved also. With both forwards with 3 point range, the defender at the 4 can't cheat off Randle anymore.
As for your question Frog, Black is a center so he or Moz would fit with this unit. As for Jules and Nance, they still will get lots of minutes. Deng is no spring chicken anymore. But to be a better 4 than Deng was last season, they need to be able to extend the floor with a reliable outside shot and defend the wing better. Just because Nance and Deng play the 4, doesn't mean we can't put someone else there who might be better in our system. |
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AFireInside619
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| Jim99187 wrote: | | Megaton wrote: | Regardless where you put Deng, I hope Ingram does start.
Not only do I think he's good enough (I mean he clearly is), I think he should be thrown to the fire. Him and Russell are clearly the future here. And now with Ingram not looking as raw as some thought he was, it would be both a great confidence booster and better chemistry building going forward with the young core on the court together more. |
agree. Ingram/DLO should be playing together. I would even play him at 2 this season |
Ingram can play 1-5 for all I care. I'm sure he eventually will for us at some point. The fact that he was so comfortable bringing the ball up court and initiating the offense vs Golden State surprised the heck out of me. The kid can ball. And you guys are right, once they build some chemistry DLO and Ingram will be a scary dual for years to come.
Mychal Thompson said a couple of months ago he saw Ingram as a cross between KD and Anthony Davis. I think I laughed at first, but with his defense looking so good this far, maybe that's not a reach. |
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HAWAIIGUY27
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:45 am Post subject: |
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Trade Randle and Lou for Gay and it's done!
Russell/Calderon/Huertas
Young/Clarkson
Gay/Ingram/Brown
Deng/Nance
Mozgov/Black/Zubac
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adkindo
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| AFireInside619 wrote: | | Ingram as a cross between KD and Anthony Davis |
pretty sure this character already exists in either the Marvel or DC lineup |
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TylersLakers
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| I'm not too worried about this. Luke is a smart basketball mind and he'll figure out how to best use everyone. This is just a starting point that they would like to hold to form and excel with. If it doesn't and Luke needs to make changes, he will. |
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tox
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| HAWAIIGUY27 wrote: | Trade Randle and Lou for Gay and it's done!
Russell/Calderon/Huertas
Young/Clarkson
Gay/Ingram/Brown
Deng/Nance
Mozgov/Black/Zubac |
Horrible idea. No matter how low you are on Randle, he's not worth a season of an overrated, no-defense chucker. Pass hard. |
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AFireInside619
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | AFireInside619 wrote: | | Ingram as a cross between KD and Anthony Davis |
pretty sure this character already exists in either the Marvel or DC lineup |
Yeah, it's called Lebron game 7 vs the Warriors... lol |
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Dilla_
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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I think Deng will get more minutes at SF when the season starts but could get some minutes at PF e.g. it could happen in a smallball line-up if Randle was at the five.
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Gimme_the_rock
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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Ingram at the 2
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| dao wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | Assuming that Deng at the four is the Lakers' best lineup, it still doesn't mean that he has to start there. Players take a pounding guarding one position up at the four spot so they may want to deploy it selectively to preserve his health at his age and to provide a change of pace mid-game. |
He can start at PF and play some minutes with the second unit at SF.
say deng gets 18 PF minutes, 10 SF minutes.
Randle gets 20 PF minutes
Nance gets 10 PF minutes, 10 center minutes
Mozgov gets 26 C minutes
Leaving 12 backup C minutes for Black
Both Randle and Nance get 20 mpg, Black gets 13. If you want give the young PFs more PT, then give Black the short end of the stick, or reduce Mozgov's minutes. |
Too many minutes for guys we aren't trying to develop over the guys we are trying to develop. I would hope Deng caps out at about 26 mpg or so no matter what positions he plays.
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| AFireInside619 wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: |
So what do you do with Black, Nance and Randle? |
I agree with GT here. It's widely known in the NBA that Miami was better the second half of the season when they moved Deng to the 4. By moving Deng to the 4 and having Ingram playing the 3 our starting line-up is instantly improved defensively. Ingram is already a good defender, and the fact that he's so long, he can contest shots without jumping, resulting in less fouls. Plus our spacing on offense should be improved also. With both forwards with 3 point range, the defender at the 4 can't cheat off Randle anymore.
As for your question Frog, Black is a center so he or Moz would fit with this unit. As for Jules and Nance, they still will get lots of minutes. Deng is no spring chicken anymore. But to be a better 4 than Deng was last season, they need to be able to extend the floor with a reliable outside shot and defend the wing better. Just because Nance and Deng play the 4, doesn't mean we can't put someone else there who might be better in our system. |
I'm sold on Black as the backup 5, and do not think Nance or especially Randle have much of a future at that position, so the dilemma would be the remaining minutes at the 4 in which a choice would have to be made between Nance and Randle. Personally, while I totally agree (ranted about it in an earlier thread) with the logic of moving Deng to the 4, I rather punt that decision to next season or at the earliest the AS break.
Last edited by greenfrog on Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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KindCrippler2000
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| AFireInside619 wrote: | | Jim99187 wrote: | | Megaton wrote: | Regardless where you put Deng, I hope Ingram does start.
Not only do I think he's good enough (I mean he clearly is), I think he should be thrown to the fire. Him and Russell are clearly the future here. And now with Ingram not looking as raw as some thought he was, it would be both a great confidence booster and better chemistry building going forward with the young core on the court together more. |
agree. Ingram/DLO should be playing together. I would even play him at 2 this season |
Ingram can play 1-5 for all I care. I'm sure he eventually will for us at some point. The fact that he was so comfortable bringing the ball up court and initiating the offense vs Golden State surprised the heck out of me. The kid can ball. And you guys are right, once they build some chemistry DLO and Ingram will be a scary dual for years to come.
Mychal Thompson said a couple of months ago he saw Ingram as a cross between KD and Anthony Davis. I think I laughed at first, but with his defense looking so good this far, maybe that's not a reach. |
Ingram will be able to play all 5 positions effectively in his prime. He can play the 1-4 right now. Putting him at the 5 would be too overbearing, but I'm sure we'll see it in a few seasons, and he'll likely grow to be 7 feet. I do believe the Lakers lucked out and got a possible generational talent. |
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defense
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Unless there are injuries or we are so terrible there is no other choice I don't think Deng will play much PF but who knows. Lots of things have surprised so far this preseason. |
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tox
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| defense wrote: | | Unless there are injuries or we are so terrible there is no other choice I don't think Deng will play much PF but who knows. Lots of things have surprised so far this preseason. |
If Randle and Nance showed they could play the 4/5 together, I could see Deng playing the 4. I'm just very skeptical that experiment would be successful, mostly because Randle's rim protection is horrible and he doesn't play with enough energy to do a high-energy, hyper-aggressive defensive approach a la the '13 Heat. |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | defense wrote: | | Unless there are injuries or we are so terrible there is no other choice I don't think Deng will play much PF but who knows. Lots of things have surprised so far this preseason. |
If Randle and Nance showed they could play the 4/5 together, I could see Deng playing the 4. I'm just very skeptical that experiment would be successful, mostly because Randle's rim protection is horrible and he doesn't play with enough energy to do a high-energy, hyper-aggressive defensive approach a la the '13 Heat. |
I thought they had a few minutes together last season, but I'm not finding the lineup data. I would be interested in seeing them get some burn together to see if Nance could provide some rim protection while Randle picks up slack on the boards. |
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