Will Andrew ever get to the point where he will be nearly unstoppable with his hook shot..?
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J.C. Smith
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:36 pm    Post subject:

He wants to learn the shot. Kareem has been working on him with it, and supposedly he was shooting the shot in high school. It's not an easy shot to master though. He's just a kid though and learning from the master himself, I tend to think he will get there.
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angel
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:17 am    Post subject:

AB is not much past 18 years old. He has a long way to go, before he reaches his athletic peak. The kid is learning rapidly. I'm looking forward to watching him continue to develop.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:22 am    Post subject:

The practice is important. That said, AB will never have Kareem's range. But have to remember Kareem was shooting that shot from age 9 on, and his effective range was out to 15-18 feet. Pretty amazing, IMO.

Have to remember not only has no one ever mastered the shot like Kareem, no one has ever really made it a great weapon since Kareem. Why is that? First, it's not nearly as popular as dunking. Second, it's a damn hard shot to master past 5 feet from the basket. I remember years ago reading about how Magic got Kareem to teach him the shot, and he was talking about the difficulty of triangulating between the eyes, the shooting hand at the release point and the basket, all while jostling for position. Kareem was making those shots with a hand pushing at the waist. With all of his soft touch, the best Magic could do was that junior sky hook which he made famous by beating the Celtics with it in the playoffs at the old Boston Garden.

But I believe that a good hook shot can extend a center's career well into his 30's, like Kareem because it only requires that you establish a position within your range, it does not require you to get closer to the basket. The key for Kareem's opponents was to keep pushing him away from the basket. Because Kareem was never strong enough to drop-step or bull his way to the basket like Shaq or Hakeem, his way was to develop that incredible range on the hook shot so he still made opposing teams pay for single covering him even if they managed to push him off the block.

In AB's case, he has Kareem's length and he's big as well. He is only now starting to really practice the shot at age 18. If he can make that shot out to 8-10 feet range and mix that with other moves, good footwork and improved lower body strength, then while he won't make anyone forget Shaq or Kareem, he will still be pretty good.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:19 am    Post subject:

K8KillerInstinct wrote:
KA_2 wrote:
K8KillerInstinct wrote:
Actually I would rather see a Shaq-type player because in this age. that type of player is almost unstoppable


^ You'd take Shaq over Kareem? Christ no.


Forget about Shaq's personal problems and attitude for a moment, but I would actually take a player who is the most DOMINANT player in the paint. Completely unstoppable strength and power. From a bastketball standpoint, I think Shaq is more dominant than Kareem.


No, but a Shaq type of player is limited in terms of years of dominance. You can't take that kind of beating with literally three 260 lb guys hanging on you while you go up to dunk, and have it NOT shorten the years you can dominate - even if Shaq had stayed in condition.

I'd rather he be a combination of all 3 because as the earlier post said, he can play it however the defense gives it to him.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:45 am    Post subject:

Some people don't really appreciate how physical Kareem was. Shaq was obviously the biggest low post presence, but Kareem was able to push on double teams and still have the focus to get his sky hook off cleanly. And on the defensive end he was a better rebounder and shot blocker than Shaq ever cared to be. (Some guys can't be taught. Look at 'Zo).

Now Bynum is still a project. We see glimpses of what he is capable off and what he is learning. The problem is, he is 18 and his base is about as solid as a poodle on linoleum. When he gets his lower body stronger, then he will be an all-star type center. Until then, he doesn't have the luxury of wondering if his hook shot will be unstoppable. He just needs to think about how he can contibute without turning the ball over or fouling out or getting outrebounded on the defensive boards.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:59 pm    Post subject:

I see Bynum becoming more of a finesse player than a power one. He'll have some power from his athleticism, but I see him relying more on skill, length, athleticism, and eventually smarts. I could see him having the hook shot, a turnaround J from the post, maybe some up fakes like what Hakeem had, and hopefully a ferocious rebounder and defender like Hakeem.

And I'd rather see him be about finesse than power. Shaq's decline has been more about conditioning and injuries than playing style, but Shaq has always taken such a beating because of his style, and of course he also dealt out quite a beating. Couple that with the fact that he weighs 350-400 pounds, and that all that weight puts major stress on his kness, feet, and joints - that's a recipe for nagging injuries and his body breaking down.

Kareem and Hakeem were more about finesse, and were still effective in their mid-30s. Didn't Kareem win the Finals MVP when he was like 38? I also heard that Kareem was a fanatic about staying in shape during the offseason, and that he was also a warrior in crunch time. Big men usually last longer than swingmen in this league, but only if they take care of their bodies and start relying on skill later on. Webber has no more athleticsm, but he's still a 20 and 10 player because he changed his game after his knee injury.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:13 pm    Post subject:

Next year he will be our sixth man of the year. His third year he should get the start and might get voted in as an All-Star.

16pt 10rb 3blk 3ast in 33min a game
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:24 pm    Post subject:

thumpinghead wrote:
Next year he will be our sixth man of the year. His third year he should get the start and might get voted in as an All-Star.

16pt 10rb 3blk 3ast in 33min a game


You forgot that after that he will eclipse Kobe as the best player in the game and the year after that he becomes king of all basketball the next year the NBA will retire his jersey while he is still playing.

Maaaaybe it's too early to tell what he will be.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:20 pm    Post subject:

thumpinghead wrote:
Next year he will be our sixth man of the year. His third year he should get the start and might get voted in as an All-Star.

16pt 10rb 3blk 3ast in 33min a game


God knows.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:53 pm    Post subject:

STiG909 wrote:
Some of you act like Kareem made every sky hook he attempted. The bottom line is by the time Andrew stops growing, he won't need to use the hook shot. His arms are too long making it much harder for him than it was for Kareem.


How can having long arms make it harder to shoot a hook?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:22 pm    Post subject:

DicksHutnick wrote:
STiG909 wrote:
Some of you act like Kareem made every sky hook he attempted. The bottom line is by the time Andrew stops growing, he won't need to use the hook shot. His arms are too long making it much harder for him than it was for Kareem.


How can having long arms make it harder to shoot a hook?



Mechanics..



The same reason centers have a harder time shooting FTs than do PGs..

The bigger (or longer) something is, the more support and control is needed to manuever precisely..

Think of it like one of those huge cranes you see at construction site which needs to move precisely in order accomplish a delicate task.


The longer the arms, the more skill is needed..

That's basically it, unless someone wants to argue that.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:29 pm    Post subject:

I don't know that it's really arm length or a question of coordination and motor skills. If a player is smooth with his movements and release (with soft hands) vs. being herky-jerky, he's going to make those shots regardless of length.

Kareem wasn't exactly short armed. He's extremely long limbed and he was the master because of his grace and smooth release.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:37 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
How can having long arms make it harder to shoot a hook?

Mechanics..


Disagree. It's not the length of arm, but rather, how soft the hands are.

Good to great shooters tend to have long arms. Mechanics is just as complicated on a jumpshot as it is with a hook shot.

Think Kevin Willis. Small hands. Alligator arms. No sky in that hook.

I don't consider Bynum a "smooth" player in anyway. He's herky jerky. Every pivot he makes isn't clean. Every jumphook that he takes isn't directly vertical. In fact, he even fades away a bit on the hook because of lack of balance and position... poor footing on the hook.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:44 pm    Post subject:

Bynum is not herky-jerky. Ginobili is herky-jerky in his movements. Bynum is nothing like that. He may not be Kareem smooth, but he's smooth enough and has huge soft hands. Perhaps his footwork and release are just a little shaky because he's trying out a lot of these moves and footwork in game for the first time.

I'd be lying if I said I was surprised that you've found yet another way to criticize this kid, Mike. Don't you get tired of looking for ways to put him down, especially when he's predominantly shown nothing but wonderful flashes of what he might be? It's kind of sad that you can't even seem to enjoy this kid because all you can do is try to make him sound like a bust before he's even begun.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:51 pm    Post subject:

Ginobili isn't herky jerky. He has some of the strongest ankles I've ever seen, especially considering he changes direction in the middle of penetration with good speed.

Bynum is nothing like that. Each pivot step is not fluid and established.

LJ, this isn't about criticizing the kid, but calling it like I see it. You know who's smooth with footwork? Kwame Brown's spin move. Quick, established, and right under the basket in a short period of time. Bynum is nothing like that. Nowhere near that smooth. Nowhere near that quick when it comes to footwork.

It's not that I don't enjoy his accomplishments. I just don't overrate him or set expectations too high over small flashes.

Contrast that to Channing Frye who's getting consistent PT, gets 13.6ppg 5.7rpg .77bpg in 26 minutes consistently. And yet, certain fans frown on that kind of PF/C for the Lakers just because it eats up caproom ifa trade fell through to land him?

That doesn't make any sense to me.

Bynum has improved FAR faster than I've ever seen, but he's hardly polished.

Hell, I almost hate it when he "blows up" for 3 blocks in 5 minute s or goes 7 of 7 because fans tend to hype him up real fast. Like Kwame hasn't gone 7 of 7 vs. Dallas? What happened to that?

Bynum has a different mentality, but setting expactations on a kid so young to be Olajuwon/Mutombo (which I feel is absurd), perfect a hook shot, or average 3-4 blocks per game on an 18 year old kid who had nowhere near the skill level of even Kareem out of HS?

That's why I take Bynum for face value.

Quote:
I'd like Andrew to develop into a combination of Shaq/Kareem/Duncan


You don't find that comparison a little insane? Arguably 3 of the NBAs top 60 of All Time?

Hell, Chris Kaman produces more on both ends of the floor than Bynum. Doesn't have the length but certainly has the skills. Doesn't mean he warrants anything close to the top 60 NBA players of All Time, let alone become an AllStar player. It's not like he doesn't have upside either.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:03 pm    Post subject:

In three years, Bynum will be better than Shaq ever was and Wafer will be better than Jordan ever was. I can just tell from the way they practice really hard and stuff.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:12 pm    Post subject:

Bynum next season will probably be at:
14mpg, 7ppg, 5rpg, 2bpg ....

Please! Surprise me!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:14 pm    Post subject:

I will say this though. Bynum may not be as athletically gifted as NBA's elite of the past, David Robinson, Wilt, Olajuwon, or even Shaq...

But hey, if he keeps developing skills this fast throughout his career, there's no reason why he shouldn't be Ilgauskas-like w/o the injury.

That'd be insane already, especially out of a weak draft. All I ask is 14ppg 12rpg 2bpg, active on both ends of the floor. No real reason to warrant expectation of the greatest scorers of all time or the best defensive players of all time.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:54 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Ginobili isn't herky jerky. He has some of the strongest ankles I've ever seen, especially considering he changes direction in the middle of penetration with good speed.

Bynum is nothing like that. Each pivot step is not fluid and established.

LJ, this isn't about criticizing the kid, but calling it like I see it. You know who's smooth with footwork? Kwame Brown's spin move. Quick, established, and right under the basket in a short period of time. Bynum is nothing like that. Nowhere near that smooth. Nowhere near that quick when it comes to footwork.

It's not that I don't enjoy his accomplishments. I just don't overrate him or set expectations too high over small flashes.

Contrast that to Channing Frye who's getting consistent PT, gets 13.6ppg 5.7rpg .77bpg in 26 minutes consistently. And yet, certain fans frown on that kind of PF/C for the Lakers just because it eats up caproom ifa trade fell through to land him?

That doesn't make any sense to me.

Bynum has improved FAR faster than I've ever seen, but he's hardly polished.

Hell, I almost hate it when he "blows up" for 3 blocks in 5 minute s or goes 7 of 7 because fans tend to hype him up real fast. Like Kwame hasn't gone 7 of 7 vs. Dallas? What happened to that?

Bynum has a different mentality, but setting expactations on a kid so young to be Olajuwon/Mutombo (which I feel is absurd), perfect a hook shot, or average 3-4 blocks per game on an 18 year old kid who had nowhere near the skill level of even Kareem out of HS?

That's why I take Bynum for face value.

Quote:
I'd like Andrew to develop into a combination of Shaq/Kareem/Duncan


You don't find that comparison a little insane? Arguably 3 of the NBAs top 60 of All Time?

Hell, Chris Kaman produces more on both ends of the floor than Bynum. Doesn't have the length but certainly has the skills. Doesn't mean he warrants anything close to the top 60 NBA players of All Time, let alone become an AllStar player. It's not like he doesn't have upside either.


First of all, excuse me if this is long. It's late, and I'm just typing my thoughts as I go. Okay, here I go:

Come on now. You can't compare a 24 year old college player now in his 2nd season as an NBA player, with a barely 18 yr. old Andrew Bynum who is somewhat "awkward" because he's still physically growing. Kaman can get a bit better if he works hard, but he's already basically what he's going to be - a solid center whose ambidextrous, a little bulky and plodding, but can be aggressive and stays within his limits. Andrew Bynum is just scratching the surface of his own talents, but has been showing thus far that "the sky's the limit" potential his primary coach, personal coach, management, and others who have worked with him have claimed he has, may actually be true. When you're talking about potential, that IS what you're discussing - how high a player can ascend IF they reached their very best potential. I happen to see that Bynum likes to bang and be more physical than Duncan does but not as much as Shaq, that he loves the skill and fundamental qualities of Duncan's game, that he's learning the offensive game from Kareem - so YES, I do think he'll incorporate some of all those players. That's not nuts.

Personally, other than you saying so, I have yet to see anything that says Bynum can't reach any level IF he works on improving his game and body every single year. I know that the Lakers sure view him as having franchise caliber talent, and I would think that after having had a long and lustrous history of franchise caliber centers, they know what those types of players look like. You keep talking about skill level as though just because he's not polished now, he can never learn those things well enough. I say hogwash to that. If a player has the physical tools, a natural feel for the game and works his ass off to continuously improve, he can be as highly skilled as anyone else. It isn't a "he's not there yet, so he can never be there" situation.

I know you're saying you're just "calling it as you see it", but sometimes your comments sound nothing like Bynum. For example, Andrew doesn't look herky jerky. He looks inexperienced like he's trying moves out for the first time and as a result, he tends to hesitate before going for it. As a result, his moves are not yet natural to him and he looks a bit awkward and choppy by virtue of the initial hesitancy. Once he commits to a move, however, (such as the drop steps or spin moves we've seen), he's not jerky, slow or plodding. He's smooth, deliberate and quick. He looks GOOOD making his moves. Personally, I'm thrilled by the superb footwork and aggression I see, but I wonder why you aren't? After the New York game, did you think he showed flashes of the brilliance the Lakers see in him and that New York fans raved about him, or did you just think that while his FG% was 100%, he should have had more arc in his shots, thus it's really just lucky coincidence he played well? With Kwame, fans did get excited after he went 7 for 7. Many thought that perhaps he was turning a corner. Still, the enthusiasm was tempered because he's shown that before and doesn't necessarily look "improved" as much as he looks like he a great night. With Andrew, he's showing us new things and dramatic improvements in footwork, all the time and in such a short time. That's the difference.

Heck, even Dave Smith and Lonnie white - who were screaming for a Bynum/Artest trade - both piped up about how wrong they were to want that trade. I don't think they thought Brendan Haywood or Ilgauskas (who isn't physical or a good defender) tops when they changed their tune. I know, I know, who cares what they think. You have your own mind and perspective, and have an informed view, as well. I agree with that, but could it be that just maybe you look a little too hard to find fault or flaw even when there aren't any?

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On a side note as to Ginobili, he is WAAAYY herky-jerky. Even commentators, including our own Stu Lantz, often comment on how herky jerky Manu is, and that he's gotten brilliant at using his herky-jerky style to draw fouls on opponents. Having strong or weak ankles really has nothing to do with smoothness. Nick Van Excel is herky-jerky, too, but I'm sure his ankles are fine. That style is a big reason why those types of players are so hard to guard. They can make a touch look like a foul merely by virtue of a normal-for-them "jerky" move.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:58 am    Post subject:

FYI, Mike, I didn't see your most recent post until after I wrote my response to yours from before - just in case you actually answered some of my points in that subsequent post.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:02 am    Post subject:

Different kind of herky-jerky, I think.

Ginobili and Van Exel are herky jerky in that they are hard to predict.

Andrew's herky jerky in that he just looks awkward with his motions.

But then he IS an awkwardly long 7 footer who is still growing so I don't think it's fair to comment on his lack of grace in his movement compared to two of the quicker guards the league has seen.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:17 am    Post subject:

Quote:
K8KillerInstinct wrote:
KA_2 wrote:
K8KillerInstinct wrote:
Actually I would rather see a Shaq-type player because in this age. that type of player is almost unstoppable


^ You'd take Shaq over Kareem? Christ no.


Forget about Shaq's personal problems and attitude for a moment, but I would actually take a player who is the most DOMINANT player in the paint. Completely unstoppable strength and power. From a bastketball standpoint, I think Shaq is more dominant than Kareem.


If he plays like Shaq then he will be built like him. Which means he will fall apart at 32. I would prefer a more finesse guy that doesnt have to catch the ball 3 feet away. And where it dosen't takes the guy 20 secs out off the clock to finally muscle his way into the paint.


Only reason Shaq is falling apart at 32 is because he DID NOT take care of his body.....Too much weight on a hulking frame, too much weight on his knees, never came in shape. That's why Shaq didn't last long.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:44 am    Post subject:

shnjb wrote:
Different kind of herky-jerky, I think.

Ginobili and Van Exel are herky jerky in that they are hard to predict.

Andrew's herky jerky in that he just looks awkward with his motions.

But then he IS an awkwardly long 7 footer who is still growing so I don't think it's fair to comment on his lack of grace in his movement compared to two of the quicker guards the league has seen.


Agreed.

Quote:
I agree with that, but could it be that just maybe you look a little too hard to find fault or flaw even when there aren't any?


I don't think so, especially when it's the basics.

At the summer pro league, you can count the number of things he needed to work on, just getting post position.

1. Maintaining a base position.
2. Opening the wingspan to the ball and creating a large target for post entry.
3. Moving feet to continually gain post position.
4. Create centralized/forward movement towards the basket.

Even until now, he's still rough around the edges to these 4 simple rules that high school players learn from the get go.

With such a long learning curve, I just really don't like the high expectation/comparison of players. Almost the skill of Duncan? Almost as physical as Shaq? Almost Mutombo defensively?

That's a lot of almosts that I highly doubt he'll reach. He's been tutored by Kareem since last summer. Still slight fadeaway on the hook. Still inactive with the feet trying to establish post position. Still has some trouble maintaining post position.

These are things Greg Oden already knows. Josh Boone. Hilton Armstrong. Randolph Morris.

My question is, why set the expectations so high? At least Kobe Bryant set the bar for himself out of HS. Same with LeBron. Bynum? No.

Quote:
With Andrew, he's showing us new things and dramatic improvements in footwork, all the time and in such a short time. That's the difference.


So that's what warrants the huge comparisons?

I'll agree with the comparisons once he has the basics down first, then the million-dollar moves second. Calhoun saw this, which is why he wanted the kid so bad.

Quote:
It isn't a "he's not there yet, so he can never be there" situation.


Never said he couldn't learn. Always said the road was longer for him. You think the Lakers think he's a franchise caliber center? Let's compare him to our own franchise caliber SG.

Out of HS, Bryant was a bonafide triple threat player, ambidextrious, and played all positions out of HS. He rocked the SPL at a 20+ppg clip and when he got in the game during the regular season, there was absolutely no doubt his elite skill level out of HS as well as elite athletic abilities out of HS would make him a franchise player. Beating the ACC player of the year and Michael Cooper from the workouts was more than enough proof.

Contrast that to Andrew Bynum from the SPL, where he was getting worked by the likes of Earl Barron, who's barely on the Miami Roster, and a PF senior from Marquette, simply because he couldn't deny position, hold position, or do anything in terms of man-to-man defense. I'm not talking 10 points here. I am talking 16-22. It's clear he's not athletic like KG, Jermaine O'Neal, or Amare Stoudemire out of HS. It's clear that he has a longer road to learn the basic skills first, moves second.

Now ask yourself, how long did it take Bryant to become a franchise player? Both Bynum and Bryant were roughly the same age out of HS. 3 years? 4 years? Doesn't Bryant have some of the best work ethic in the league? What took him so long?

Now do you understand why I don't set expectations so high? He's learning quickly as if he has a matrix cord in the back of head, but when he's still making fundamental mistakes, then why the comparisons of the greatest centers of all time? Think Moses Malone had these problems out of the ABA?

Hence, the point of the longer curve. Considering all of the fundamentals he needs to work on as an individual player first while implementing team defensive and offensive schemes, reacting to gametime, etc., really, how fast do you think he can become this franchise player?

As to what the Laker franchise sees, I think they're continually surprised by their pick. I'm not surprised that when they finally pick a 2-way athletic player by position, he can actually produce despite the lack of skills. They admitted to gambling on the pick right up to the draft and the SPL had mixed results. Aggressive and active? Sure. Pushed around and failing to do basics of boxing out? Yup.

Fans want to focus on the spin move and dunk on Shaq. That was amazing.

They don't want to focus on how Shaq walked him under the basket and threw it down over him. Failure to box out and hold position.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:32 pm    Post subject:

A few things.

1- Bynum doesn't have to be a franchise bigman to be worth the pick
2- Bynum isn't an elite athlete in terms of jumping but I do believe he is one of the longest players in the league and could become one of the strongest
3- Skills are hard to develop the older you get. But not everyone is the same. Bynum is ahead of the curve according to Mitch and the Lakers in general

Will Bynum become one of the best Center's ever? Unlikely. Is there no chance in hell? No, there's a slight chance that he can become the player he says he will (Half Duncan Half Shaq).

Most likely considering his age, tools, mind and work ethic?

He'll be GOOD. We know that much. Do we really need to keep arguing about how good?

Let's just see where he's at age 20-21 ... At that point he would've been coming out of Calhoun's program and we would need to measure him against the number 1-2 pick in the draft.

At that point, I think we will know for sure if he's a franchise bigman or just a talented bigman with potential.
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iml84myd8s
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Joined: 06 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:32 pm    Post subject:

LakerJam wrote:
iml84myd8s wrote:
Shouldn't we see if Bynum can become a starter in this league before we discuss if his hook shot becomes unstopable?


You have a problem anticipating a player's potential? If you do, you must find draft time incredibly boring.



Actually, yes I do find the NBA draft incredibly boring. After all, we’re not talking about the NFL draft we’re talking about one meaningful round of drafting and a second round with players who don’t even get guaranteed contracts.

As for players with NBA potential, there is a big difference when talking about NBA potential or an NBA project. NBA potential is Chris Paul, Danny Granger or the other Andrew (Bogut). Andrew Bynum is an NBA project. There not even close to being the same type of players. Players with NBA potential make an immediate impact on their team. Players who are NBA projects may or may not ever make an impact in the league, much less for the teams who drafted them.

It is common sense to wait and see if Andrew Bynum develops into a decent NBA center before making statements that Bynum’s shot could become unstoppable. After all, Bynum is averaging less than 2 points and 2 rebounds per game. That’s a “double-double” for a project-type player. Perhaps, it makes more sense to see Bynum average a real double-double (10 & 10) before projecting his hook shot as unstoppable.

This has nothing to do with anticipation and everything to do with logic.
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