2017 Lakers Draft Discussion Thread ** DRAFT DAY** (2: Ball, 27: Kuzma, 30: Hart and 42: Bryant )
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Who you got after Fultz?
Lonzo Ball
75%
 75%  [ 315 ]
Josh Jackson
15%
 15%  [ 64 ]
Jayson Tatum
1%
 1%  [ 8 ]
De'Aaron Fox
4%
 4%  [ 20 ]
Malik Monk
1%
 1%  [ 5 ]
Jonathan Isaac
0%
 0%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 416

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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:28 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Tatum training with Drew makes me more worried about him becoming another Clarkson, he already showed some of the tunnel vision mentality at Duke, I don't think Drew is gonna make that any better.

One of the main things that has me leaning towards Jackson over Tatum is Jackson's willingness to and ability to pass.


While I admit that Josh is a natural playmaker and it comes easy for him, Tatum changed his archetype for the last 2 months as a playmaker too.

There's a big difference between the 0.7 A/TO ratio of the beginning of the year vs. the 1:1 A/TO ratio of the last two months, especially 3apg in February.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:29 am    Post subject:

cKPayasoLoco wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Cole Zwicker‏Verified account @colezwicker 24h24 hours ago
More
Lonzo also has the 2nd highest PPP in half-court catch and shoot situations (min 100 attempts) for lead guards in the last decade (Dame #1)
3 replies 5 retweets 7 likes


Such a SG archetype.


Yeah. The more I finally watched him this is what I thought too. And he's not a ball pounding take it to the rack guard either. If folks were upset with dlo they may find the Ball experiment at "PG" a bit familiar.

not sure if this post is serious...


It's serious. Just because the guy brings the ball up past half-court, doesn't mean he plays like a point guard once he crosses the line.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:53 am    Post subject:

cKPayasoLoco wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Cole Zwicker‏Verified account @colezwicker 24h24 hours ago
More
Lonzo also has the 2nd highest PPP in half-court catch and shoot situations (min 100 attempts) for lead guards in the last decade (Dame #1)
3 replies 5 retweets 7 likes


Such a SG archetype.


Yeah. The more I finally watched him this is what I thought too. And he's not a ball pounding take it to the rack guard either. If folks were upset with dlo they may find the Ball experiment at "PG" a bit familiar.

not sure if this post is serious...


It absolutely is. The more I watch tapes of him he's an elite passer but from the traditional "SG" spot. Expecting him to break teams off the dribble and take it hard to the rack isn't his game for those who want the antiquated "athletic PG" archetype. We may have two guys in Dlo/Ball who don't take guys off the dribble.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:58 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
cKPayasoLoco wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Cole Zwicker‏Verified account @colezwicker 24h24 hours ago
More
Lonzo also has the 2nd highest PPP in half-court catch and shoot situations (min 100 attempts) for lead guards in the last decade (Dame #1)
3 replies 5 retweets 7 likes


Such a SG archetype.


Yeah. The more I finally watched him this is what I thought too. And he's not a ball pounding take it to the rack guard either. If folks were upset with dlo they may find the Ball experiment at "PG" a bit familiar.

not sure if this post is serious...


It absolutely is. The more I watch tapes of him he's an elite passer but from the traditional "SG" spot. Expecting him to break teams off the dribble and take it hard to the rack isn't his game for those who want the antiquated "athletic PG" archetype. We may have two guys in Dlo/Ball who don't take guys off the dribble.


It's even proven analytically by play type.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:42 am    Post subject:

Wow that Dennis Smith Jr. kid certainly looks the part. Amazing athletic ability, he looks like a NBA player.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:37 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:

It absolutely is. The more I watch tapes of him he's an elite passer but from the traditional "SG" spot. Expecting him to break teams off the dribble and take it hard to the rack isn't his game for those who want the antiquated "athletic PG" archetype. We may have two guys in Dlo/Ball who don't take guys off the dribble.


I don't share your concept of antiquated archetype. To tell the truth I think it is the complete opposite, I fell like you to enjoy players with a game reminiscent of the 60's. Elite athleticism is not a need, but is a huge advantage, no question about that. Rose without his athleticism is average, I believe the same is going to happen to Westbrook, but when you have players like Kobe, MJ, LeBron with great basketball skills and also great athleticism those players can flat out dominate the game. A player without physical advantage has to be fenomenal doing a lot of things, but he can still be exposed by superior athletes in playoff situation when the defenses are focused.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:01 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Good Game Theory podcast with Sam Vecenie and Cole Zwicker...go over some 2018 guys then spend some time on Tatum, Jackson, Ball and Monk.

https://soundcloud.com/sam-vecenie/hoop-summit-and-nba-draft


The way Vecenie raves about Tatum's work ethic is the primary reason why I have him over Josh Jackson.


he works with Clarkson/Wiggins trainer


think Beal, Lavine and Oubre are clients also....think Beal was his first big client...both from St. Louis


Ya Drew started training Beal in high school, and Beal is like Tatum's big bro. Embiid also trains w Drew
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:02 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
cKPayasoLoco wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Cole Zwicker‏Verified account @colezwicker 24h24 hours ago
More
Lonzo also has the 2nd highest PPP in half-court catch and shoot situations (min 100 attempts) for lead guards in the last decade (Dame #1)
3 replies 5 retweets 7 likes


Such a SG archetype.


Yeah. The more I finally watched him this is what I thought too. And he's not a ball pounding take it to the rack guard either. If folks were upset with dlo they may find the Ball experiment at "PG" a bit familiar.

not sure if this post is serious...


It absolutely is. The more I watch tapes of him he's an elite passer but from the traditional "SG" spot. Expecting him to break teams off the dribble and take it hard to the rack isn't his game for those who want the antiquated "athletic PG" archetype. We may have two guys in Dlo/Ball who don't take guys off the dribble.

Yeah, I don't think it's really a problem if you just think of him as a SG with elite catch-and-shoot ability and court vision. I mean, he's 6'6" which is plenty of size for the 2. And he's athletic enough for that position too.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:04 pm    Post subject:

LakerLanny wrote:
Wow that Dennis Smith Jr. kid certainly looks the part. Amazing athletic ability, he looks like a NBA player.


Leaping is special, shot making is realllly good. But he's got below avg quickness and defense. Kind of odd case becuase he's torn his acl a couple years ago
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:50 pm    Post subject:

nash wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:

It absolutely is. The more I watch tapes of him he's an elite passer but from the traditional "SG" spot. Expecting him to break teams off the dribble and take it hard to the rack isn't his game for those who want the antiquated "athletic PG" archetype. We may have two guys in Dlo/Ball who don't take guys off the dribble.


I don't share your concept of antiquated archetype. To tell the truth I think it is the complete opposite, I fell like you to enjoy players with a game reminiscent of the 60's. Elite athleticism is not a need, but is a huge advantage, no question about that. Rose without his athleticism is average, I believe the same is going to happen to Westbrook, but when you have players like Kobe, MJ, LeBron with great basketball skills and also great athleticism those players can flat out dominate the game. A player without physical advantage has to be fenomenal doing a lot of things, but he can still be exposed by superior athletes in playoff situation when the defenses are focused.


Rose without athleticism is average because he isn't particularly skilled.

Pretty good chance we have our 3rd year in a row of teams getting to the Finals who have PGs whose skill sets are a lot more impressive than their athleticism.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:17 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
nash wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:

It absolutely is. The more I watch tapes of him he's an elite passer but from the traditional "SG" spot. Expecting him to break teams off the dribble and take it hard to the rack isn't his game for those who want the antiquated "athletic PG" archetype. We may have two guys in Dlo/Ball who don't take guys off the dribble.


I don't share your concept of antiquated archetype. To tell the truth I think it is the complete opposite, I fell like you to enjoy players with a game reminiscent of the 60's. Elite athleticism is not a need, but is a huge advantage, no question about that. Rose without his athleticism is average, I believe the same is going to happen to Westbrook, but when you have players like Kobe, MJ, LeBron with great basketball skills and also great athleticism those players can flat out dominate the game. A player without physical advantage has to be fenomenal doing a lot of things, but he can still be exposed by superior athletes in playoff situation when the defenses are focused.


Rose without athleticism is average because he isn't particularly skilled.

Pretty good chance we have our 3rd year in a row of teams getting to the Finals who have PGs whose skill sets are a lot more impressive than their athleticism.


This is exactly what I told, Rose and Westbrook are somewhat average without superior athleticism.

A skilled player can succeed without outstanding athleticism when he is fantastic doing something, like Curry shooting or Nash running an offence (the team should provide coverage on defense for those guys).

A few players in history had both the athleticism and the skillset.

Those PGs going to the finals have good athleticism, but what separates them like you told is the skillset. One is arguable the best shooter ever and both have outstanding ball handling skills among the greatest in history.

Do you believe we have a player that is going to be that skilled in his prime?

I don't see Ingram as the most skilled guy out there, he has a decent skillset, high IQ and bulking up physical advantage.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:25 pm    Post subject:

nash wrote:
This is exactly what I told, Rose and Westbrook are somewhat average without superior athleticism.

A skilled player can succeed without outstanding athleticism when he is fantastic doing something, like Curry shooting or Nash running an offence (the team should provide coverage on defense for those guys).

A few players in history had both the athleticism and the skillset.

Those PGs going to the finals have good athleticism, but what separates them like you told is the skillset. One is arguable the best shooter ever and both have outstanding ball handling skills among the greatest in history.

Do you believe we have a player that is going to be that skilled in his prime?

I don't see Ingram as the most skilled guy out there, he has a decent skillset, high IQ and bulking up physical advantage.


No, I don't think we have a future all-time great from a skills perspective.

I also think it's notable that the athletic guys w/skills that have been historically dominant are wings. That's where it's a lot more important IMO.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:33 pm    Post subject:

I think it will be interesting...and stressful this year if we get the 3rd pick....not knowing who will be taken 2nd....and maybe even 1st. Last year, we were 99% sure we were drafting BI, so it was low stress after lottery.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:40 pm    Post subject:

They may surprise everyone and draft Jarrett Allen



Jonathan Givony wrote:
Allen isn't a flashy prospect, but he's very effective in a couple of key areas that translate well to the NBA. He protects the rim at a high level, runs the floor, can guard pick and roll, and has the hands, length and touch to be effective around the rim offensively. The Austin, Texas native has a ways to go with his frame and offensive skill set, and he may end up needing more than one season at UT, but whenever he does decide to make the jump, he has first round potential written all over him.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:

No, I don't think we have a future all-time great from a skills perspective.

I also think it's notable that the athletic guys w/skills that have been historically dominant are wings. That's where it's a lot more important IMO.


The role I see Dlo playing in the future if he can make his shooting % look as good as the arc he puts on the ball when he shooting is Klay Thompson role with better passing skills. I've told it before, I believe he can be an all star, second or third option on a winning program in his prime. When we talk about Paul George, it is not like we are going to trade Dlo for the first offer, PG is an all star, legit two way player and a sure thing that is still not old.

Dlo is our most skilled player, most would agree that Ingram has greater upside because he is younger, has elite size/length, high IQ and a fair level of athleticism, I don't think we can compare his skillset to Dlo. Russell is a keeper, but not untouchable IMHO and PG13 is someone I would trade him for.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
I think it will be interesting...and stressful this year if we get the 3rd pick....not knowing who will be taken 2nd....and maybe even 1st. Last year, we were 99% sure we were drafting BI, so it was low stress after lottery.


If we keep the pick they will almost certainly be less beloved than BI, that's for sure.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:47 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
I think it will be interesting...and stressful this year if we get the 3rd pick....not knowing who will be taken 2nd....and maybe even 1st. Last year, we were 99% sure we were drafting BI, so it was low stress after lottery.


If we keep the pick they will almost certainly be less beloved than BI, that's for sure.


I almost said people will get over it pretty quickly....but then I recalled there are still Okafor arguments on LG....so never mind
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:49 pm    Post subject:

nash wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:

No, I don't think we have a future all-time great from a skills perspective.

I also think it's notable that the athletic guys w/skills that have been historically dominant are wings. That's where it's a lot more important IMO.


The role I see Dlo playing in the future if he can make his shooting % look as good as the arc he puts on the ball when he shooting is Klay Thompson role with better passing skills. I've told it before, I believe he can be an all star, second or third option on a winning program in his prime. When we talk about Paul George, it is not like we are going to trade Dlo for the first offer, PG is an all star, legit two way player and a sure thing that is still not old.

Dlo is our most skilled player, most would agree that Ingram has greater upside because he is younger, has elite size/length, high IQ and a fair level of athleticism, I don't think we can compare his skillset to Dlo. Russell is a keeper, but not untouchable IMHO and PG13 is someone I would trade him for.


I think the Klay comparison undersells Thompson's ability as a shooter. Russell isn't that, but in a larger sense I understand and don't take issue with where you're coming from.

I wouldn't trade Russell or Ingram for PG, because we simply don't have enough assets yet. If we REALLY want to hit, to REALLY contend for a title in the next 3-5 years, it's gonna be with PG coming here in Free Agency next offseason. Then trade Russell, Ingram, or whomever you need to to make a run.

But trading a top asset (Top 3, Ingram, Russell) for PG now leaves us where exactly? What are we gonna accomplish from there?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:04 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
nash wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:

No, I don't think we have a future all-time great from a skills perspective.

I also think it's notable that the athletic guys w/skills that have been historically dominant are wings. That's where it's a lot more important IMO.


The role I see Dlo playing in the future if he can make his shooting % look as good as the arc he puts on the ball when he shooting is Klay Thompson role with better passing skills. I've told it before, I believe he can be an all star, second or third option on a winning program in his prime. When we talk about Paul George, it is not like we are going to trade Dlo for the first offer, PG is an all star, legit two way player and a sure thing that is still not old.

Dlo is our most skilled player, most would agree that Ingram has greater upside because he is younger, has elite size/length, high IQ and a fair level of athleticism, I don't think we can compare his skillset to Dlo. Russell is a keeper, but not untouchable IMHO and PG13 is someone I would trade him for.


I think the Klay comparison undersells Thompson's ability as a shooter. Russell isn't that, but in a larger sense I understand and don't take issue with where you're coming from.

I wouldn't trade Russell or Ingram for PG, because we simply don't have enough assets yet. If we REALLY want to hit, to REALLY contend for a title in the next 3-5 years, it's gonna be with PG coming here in Free Agency next offseason. Then trade Russell, Ingram, or whomever you need to to make a run.

But trading a top asset (Top 3, Ingram, Russell) for PG now leaves us where exactly? What are we gonna accomplish from there?


I agree with the logic of your comment. Same as I understand the logic of
the tanking for lottery percentages argument.

But when it comes down to it I would gladly make the trade for George (or Butler) if it was a fair trade. "Fair" being the debatable question.

Some variation of Top3 / Randle/ Clarkson/ Black/ #28 and I can accept the risk that George would re-sign.

I agree that keeping Ingram and Russell is important. Team would be improved significantly this year with additions being added to the roster of George, #28 and a $25M free agent.

IMO a PG like Lowry, Hill, Holiday or Teague makes the team dangerous and competitive. Not certain where it leads but a jump from 25 wins to 45 wins is possible with that roster and Walton's 2nd year.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:19 pm    Post subject:

Four Decade Bandwagon wrote:
I agree with the logic of your comment. Same as I understand the logic of
the tanking for lottery percentages argument.

But when it comes down to it I would gladly make the trade for George (or Butler) if it was a fair trade. "Fair" being the debatable question.

Some variation of Top3 / Randle/ Clarkson/ Black/ #28 and I can accept the risk that George would re-sign.

I agree that keeping Ingram and Russell is important. Team would be improved significantly this year with additions being added to the roster of George, #28 and a $25M free agent.

IMO a PG like Lowry, Hill, Holiday or Teague makes the team dangerous and competitive. Not certain where it leads but a jump from 25 wins to 45 wins is possible with that roster and Walton's 2nd year.


I'm just trying to imagine a team w/say PG13, Holiday, + Ingram + Russell, after the trade that you suggest here. I have a hard time seeing that team contending in the next few years. I just don't think it's enough.

Add a Top 3 pick & Randle to that team and I think you have at least enough assets there to build a contender...even if you end up trading all the young guys, in fact.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:34 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
nash wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:

No, I don't think we have a future all-time great from a skills perspective.

I also think it's notable that the athletic guys w/skills that have been historically dominant are wings. That's where it's a lot more important IMO.


The role I see Dlo playing in the future if he can make his shooting % look as good as the arc he puts on the ball when he shooting is Klay Thompson role with better passing skills. I've told it before, I believe he can be an all star, second or third option on a winning program in his prime. When we talk about Paul George, it is not like we are going to trade Dlo for the first offer, PG is an all star, legit two way player and a sure thing that is still not old.

Dlo is our most skilled player, most would agree that Ingram has greater upside because he is younger, has elite size/length, high IQ and a fair level of athleticism, I don't think we can compare his skillset to Dlo. Russell is a keeper, but not untouchable IMHO and PG13 is someone I would trade him for.


I think the Klay comparison undersells Thompson's ability as a shooter. Russell isn't that, but in a larger sense I understand and don't take issue with where you're coming from.

I wouldn't trade Russell or Ingram for PG, because we simply don't have enough assets yet. If we REALLY want to hit, to REALLY contend for a title in the next 3-5 years, it's gonna be with PG coming here in Free Agency next offseason. Then trade Russell, Ingram, or whomever you need to to make a run.

But trading a top asset (Top 3, Ingram, Russell) for PG now leaves us where exactly? What are we gonna accomplish from there?


I'm not underselling Klay as a shooter because foolish or not I believe Dlo is going to be a great shooter once he settles up his stance and start to play off the ball. As I told I don't have numbers to make a case for him as a shooter, but I'm a firm believer that everything he needs is a small adjustment.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:40 pm    Post subject:

I honestly don't care if he has a big mouth as long as pelinka makes the right move regardless of what he is saying publicly.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:54 pm    Post subject:

Four Decade Bandwagon wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
nash wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:

No, I don't think we have a future all-time great from a skills perspective.

I also think it's notable that the athletic guys w/skills that have been historically dominant are wings. That's where it's a lot more important IMO.


The role I see Dlo playing in the future if he can make his shooting % look as good as the arc he puts on the ball when he shooting is Klay Thompson role with better passing skills. I've told it before, I believe he can be an all star, second or third option on a winning program in his prime. When we talk about Paul George, it is not like we are going to trade Dlo for the first offer, PG is an all star, legit two way player and a sure thing that is still not old.

Dlo is our most skilled player, most would agree that Ingram has greater upside because he is younger, has elite size/length, high IQ and a fair level of athleticism, I don't think we can compare his skillset to Dlo. Russell is a keeper, but not untouchable IMHO and PG13 is someone I would trade him for.


I think the Klay comparison undersells Thompson's ability as a shooter. Russell isn't that, but in a larger sense I understand and don't take issue with where you're coming from.

I wouldn't trade Russell or Ingram for PG, because we simply don't have enough assets yet. If we REALLY want to hit, to REALLY contend for a title in the next 3-5 years, it's gonna be with PG coming here in Free Agency next offseason. Then trade Russell, Ingram, or whomever you need to to make a run.

But trading a top asset (Top 3, Ingram, Russell) for PG now leaves us where exactly? What are we gonna accomplish from there?


I agree with the logic of your comment. Same as I understand the logic of
the tanking for lottery percentages argument.

But when it comes down to it I would gladly make the trade for George (or Butler) if it was a fair trade. "Fair" being the debatable question.

Some variation of Top3 / Randle/ Clarkson/ Black/ #28 and I can accept the risk that George would re-sign.

I agree that keeping Ingram and Russell is important. Team would be improved significantly this year with additions being added to the roster of George, #28 and a $25M free agent.

IMO a PG like Lowry, Hill, Holiday or Teague makes the team dangerous and competitive. Not certain where it leads but a jump from 25 wins to 45 wins is possible with that roster and Walton's 2nd year.


no man PG is not worth any combination of Top3 / Randle/ Clarkson/ Black/ #28
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:28 pm    Post subject:

nash wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:

It absolutely is. The more I watch tapes of him he's an elite passer but from the traditional "SG" spot. Expecting him to break teams off the dribble and take it hard to the rack isn't his game for those who want the antiquated "athletic PG" archetype. We may have two guys in Dlo/Ball who don't take guys off the dribble.


I don't share your concept of antiquated archetype. To tell the truth I think it is the complete opposite, I fell like you to enjoy players with a game reminiscent of the 60's. Elite athleticism is not a need, but is a huge advantage, no question about that. Rose without his athleticism is average, I believe the same is going to happen to Westbrook, but when you have players like Kobe, MJ, LeBron with great basketball skills and also great athleticism those players can flat out dominate the game. A player without physical advantage has to be fenomenal doing a lot of things, but he can still be exposed by superior athletes in playoff situation when the defenses are focused.


Lol. Way to make up stuff. When does my support for Dlo mean I only like that type of player. Oh Nash. Would it surprise you that Magic is my all time favorite player?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:40 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:

Oh Nash. Would it surprise you that Magic is my all time favorite player?


Not a bit.

It is really easy to understand why Magic is the all time favorite player of someone. By the way he is my favorite PG and almost never dunked it.

Do you really believe the athletic PG archetype is antiquated? I'm not a big fan of Westbrook, but a high skilled player with his athleticism would be insane. I believe taking it hard to the rack is part of the game, throwing a lob every now and then, things like that help and that is why I would like to pair Russell with someone able to do those things. I believe Russell would have an easier time passing from the SG spot. The problem I see pairing him and Ball is that in half court this may be also the best role for Ball.
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