Joined: 15 Apr 2001 Posts: 2324 Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:31 pm Post subject:
Mike@LG wrote:
iceberg01 wrote:
Thanks for the post of the article, Mike. Very interesting.
No question Isaac needs a lot of work on his body, and isn't a jaw-dropping athlete. But my question about him is, what kind of player does he become if he keeps growing and puts on weight? If he's 7'0" 230, and more polished skills, what does that look like?
And, to me, just the fact that he's 6'11" & giving the best offensive SF in the class some fits on D actually speaks to his ability and mobility. On the other hand, he should be out muscling and beating Tatum's brains out in the post. But very interesting.
You're banking on size.
And then my point goes again, what's the point of all that size if he doesn't do anything with it? He's still not an elite shot creator. He's still not an elite playmaker. It just makes him a finisher, like Porzingis. A stud role player.
This isn't even a Dirk Nowitzki comparison either. Dirk learned the jumpshot his first 2 years in the league. He was known as a downhill, strong, ball-handling PF in transition, repeatedly and beat the Team USA U19 team, by himself.
Kobe faced bigger defenders all of the time. Didn't phase him.
Tatum is already showing signs of that footwork.
And you're talking about polish with Tatum. I'm talking about upside in Isaac. Not an elite shot creator at 19 doesn't mean he can't be at 23.
You've said many times in the past that players can become better athletes with strength training. Why do you suddenly feel different with Isaac?
I got a feeling Ball will wind up in Philly. Ball & Simmons running the team could be interesting or disastrous
A team where everybody eats and all the main pieces fit remarkably well. Unlimited potential. I would be jealous. _________________ A banana is killed every time a terrible thread or post is made. Save the bananas. Stop creating terrible posts!
Ntilinkina learns to play with pace (or finds success at SG instead) , or Fox develops a jumper - which is more likely? I'm more inclined to bet on the 6'6 guy with a 7foot wingspan, PG skills and jumper on the cusp. Doesn't that make sense?
I got a feeling Ball will wind up in Philly. Ball & Simmons running the team could be interesting or disastrous
A team where everybody eats and all the main pieces fit remarkably well. Unlimited potential. I would be jealous.
So no more team-Knicks?
You've always been unfunny to me. _________________ A banana is killed every time a terrible thread or post is made. Save the bananas. Stop creating terrible posts!
Ntilinkina learns to play with pace (or finds success at SG instead) , or Fox develops a jumper - which is more likely? I'm more inclined to bet on the 6'6 guy with a 7foot wingspan, PG skills and jumper on the cusp. Doesn't that make sense?
Fox's speed is elite. He is one of the few prospects who could potentially be effective without a jumper, and even then, his jumper has shown clear progression over the season and his FT% is nice. I see Ty Lawson with size is his floor.
Ntilikina on the other hand may never be an NBA player at all.
I guess we just think about prospects and their risks differently. _________________ substance over style
Ntilinkina learns to play with pace (or finds success at SG instead) , or Fox develops a jumper - which is more likely? I'm more inclined to bet on the 6'6 guy with a 7foot wingspan, PG skills and jumper on the cusp. Doesn't that make sense?
Fox's speed is elite. He is one of the few prospects who could potentially be effective without a jumper, and even then, his jumper has shown clear progression over the season and his FT% is nice. I see Ty Lawson with size is his floor.
Ntilikina on the other hand may never be an NBA player at all.
I guess we just think about prospects and their risks differently.
hmm I actually think prime Lawson is a spot on ceiling for him.good comparison
Ntilikina's size and length allow him a viable recourse to alleviate his weaknesses - play SG.
I got a feeling Ball will wind up in Philly. Ball & Simmons running the team could be interesting or disastrous
A team where everybody eats and all the main pieces fit remarkably well. Unlimited potential. I would be jealous.
Do you see any potential problems with them fitting?
Not with Ball, Simmons and Embiid. Their games compliment each other really well. If they were to bring in some 3 and D players with the wealth of cap space and picks they have? Or even make trades? Crazy potential. _________________ A banana is killed every time a terrible thread or post is made. Save the bananas. Stop creating terrible posts!
I got a feeling Ball will wind up in Philly. Ball & Simmons running the team could be interesting or disastrous
A team where everybody eats and all the main pieces fit remarkably well. Unlimited potential. I would be jealous.
Do you see any potential problems with them fitting?
Not with Ball, Simmons and Embiid. Their games compliment each other really well. If they were to bring in some 3 and D players with the wealth of cap space and picks they have? Or even make trades? Crazy potential.
Embiid needs to play more then 31games in 3 years to be even considered there
So where do you guys have Isaac ranked? I'm thinking of really considering him if we get #3. In this case I think BPA actually works for us by drafting him - because Randle can play a lot of 5 (20mpg). Even if we brought Randle off the bench in the future in favor of Isaac, I like Randle off the bench - his energy could really be impactful vs 2nd units, and it'd mitigate his defensive shortcomings. Or if Randle underwhelms this year, we don't have to pay him.
Isaac even ran some PnR's and can pass............. He's kind of a Lamar archetype
Last edited by KeepItRealOrElse on Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:07 pm; edited 2 times in total
I got a feeling Ball will wind up in Philly. Ball & Simmons running the team could be interesting or disastrous
A team where everybody eats and all the main pieces fit remarkably well. Unlimited potential. I would be jealous.
Do you see any potential problems with them fitting?
Not with Ball, Simmons and Embiid. Their games compliment each other really well. If they were to bring in some 3 and D players with the wealth of cap space and picks they have? Or even make trades? Crazy potential.
Fair enough. Would you move Saric? Or maybe have him come off the bench?
I got a feeling Ball will wind up in Philly. Ball & Simmons running the team could be interesting or disastrous
A team where everybody eats and all the main pieces fit remarkably well. Unlimited potential. I would be jealous.
Do you see any potential problems with them fitting?
Not with Ball, Simmons and Embiid. Their games compliment each other really well. If they were to bring in some 3 and D players with the wealth of cap space and picks they have? Or even make trades? Crazy potential.
Fair enough. Would you move Saric? Or maybe have him come off the bench?
I think Fox's floor is Elfrid Payton-ish.. Pass on that in the top 6-7 of this draft.
I can see that. Part of me also thinks Dennis Schoeder without the wingspan. Similar finishing abilities, speed, attacks.
I'm thinking "What Rondo's career may have been if he wasn't drafted by the Celtics and put into a championship atmosphere early on."
That kind of stuff does pay dividends for development. Payton essentially shoots 47% from the field despite not having a jumper.
Payton just turned 23 and post all-star break was putting up numbers of
13.5 PPG
8.4 AST
7.0 REB
2.5 TOV
50.8% Field Goal
31.6% From Three
74.3% Free Throw
30MPG
Anyone wanna do the math on that that is PER36?
Where Rondo has him beat is SPG because Rondo averaged 2.1-2.3 Steals to Payton's 1 SPG. Even still his skill is very apparent.
I think he's going to waste in Orlando and they have no idea what they potentially have in that kid.
If I were Milwaukee or Philly I'd be all over trying to get this kid. _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk
Last edited by MJST on Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
I don't wanna eff this thing up by trying to quote each quote and subquote, so I'll just respond to your points in order.
First, I just believe you CANNOT take a 3 in this draft unless he's clearly and vastly better than Ingram (which, IMO Tatum and Jackson are NOT), as
1.) possibly your best young player is a 3 (Ingram);
2.) you're chasing after a 3 via trade or free agency (George);
3.) Jackson is actually OLDER than Ingram (less upside?);
4.) Tatum isn't as good defensively as Ingram;
5.) If you DO draft one of them, you create a logjam at the position, which will inevitably hurt the development of one or more of the young players, and reduce your trade leverage for them (See Philly's C problem).
Lastly, I'm very high on Ingram. I think he's well on his way to being a Kawai Leonard/Greek Freek type of player that has length, can shoot, finish at the rim, block shots, hit threes, pass, and play the passing lanes. Weren't you high on him last year? Why draft over him now? If it ain't broke... And if you're bringing up the fact that a guy who hasn't even turned 20 yet struggled in most of his first NBA season, did you expect something different? I didn't. The real news about Ingram to me is that last quarter of the season, where the light kinda went on for him. Why mess that up?
As far as Isaac, I'm actually surprised you don't like him. Like, really surprised. You've always been in favor of "unicorns", and skills and length. And, as far as him being a project, all of these kids except for Fultz are: they're 19. It's not about who's the best player next year--it's about who's the best player in FOUR YEARS. And IMO, Isaac has as much upside as anyone. Yeah, he may (or may not) be rawer than the other players, but one thing I've learned from the last couple of years is that bigs who can shoot, handle, and create off of the dribble actually play BETTER in the NBA because of the rule changes regarding contact: AD, Porzingis, Greek Freak, KAT, all benefitted from this rule. And all of them were somewhat, if not totally unpolished when coming into the league. Greek Freak took 4 years, but are you telling me it wasn't worth it for Milwaukee to wait on him to develop??
You're looking at Isaac's advanced stats to justify your prediction of him being a role player. But the problem with using the numbers here is that just because he was used that way doesn't mean he doesn't have the SKILLS to be used in a different way. NONE of the "unicorns" above had big numbers coming out of college or international ball. And ALL of them were used as role players to a certain extent. But I'm looking at his skills. When I look at this, I see a TON of skill:
I mean, how many 6'11" players on the planet can do this stuff at age 19? At all?
The rest of your argument I don't get--not enough freakish length? He's 6'11", with a 7'1 1/2 wingspan Rudimentary ball handling? He's handling the ball on breaks, making advanced dribble moves, and throwing lobs! lol. Don't get caught up in the numbers, man: If Isaac was some Euro kid, he'd be a lock at the #2 pick. Whether he's slipping in mock drafts or not doesn't matter: I suspect he'll light it up in workouts. BTW, he also gained 15 lbs from HS to College: if he can put on another 10, and continue to grow, he can EASILY be 7'0" 220. Can you REALLY pass up on that?
IMO, after Fultz, I may have Isaac as my #2 on the Lakers draft board. You can never have too much height and shooting on the team.
I'm with you on Ingram and Isaac. I think it's ludicrous to firmly have him ranked lower than anyone other than Fultz in this class - I don't mind the opinion of some of these prospects edging him, but concretely being better..no way, they all have holes - and Ingram has the best measurables
Isaac even ran a handful or 2 of P/R... damn. Ingram+Isaac at the forward spots for us, could make for a great defense. Add Dlo in there with the length, that really becomes a factor in the playoffs when effort and DefIQ are ratcheted up. !
I mean, fans want to draft a shooter or a playmaker, maybe both. Ok well Isaac is both. And a defender. He checks enough boxes for me to take BPA here. 3 stud starters through the draft is good enough I think
I got a feeling Ball will wind up in Philly. Ball & Simmons running the team could be interesting or disastrous
A team where everybody eats and all the main pieces fit remarkably well. Unlimited potential. I would be jealous.
Do you see any potential problems with them fitting?
Not with Ball, Simmons and Embiid. Their games compliment each other really well. If they were to bring in some 3 and D players with the wealth of cap space and picks they have? Or even make trades? Crazy potential.
Fair enough. Would you move Saric? Or maybe have him come off the bench?
It would take Isaac years to be able to hold up defensively against other 4s in the league at his size. He weighs less than Brandon did and you want him to be our defensive last line of defense at the power forward position? He'd have to play the 3 when he came into the league which is where BI is.
It is funny however that months and months ago I said that the "new KD" moniker that they had put on Ingram would go to Isaac and he'd be the beloved tall-lanky prospect and have things talked up over Ingram
Now here we are in April and he is being talked up on the defensive side and with more twitch than BI has
That said, Isaac is a very good prospect with a solid upside on the offensive and defensive end.
What BI showed to close the season after the Boston goose-egg though is something scary in a good way, so it's good to see how he comes into next season.
Randle's post ASB performance was also scary in terms of his potential with his stamina and diet having changed and the stamina increase he got from it he showed some scary things as well.
Both of which would rank above Isaac in the pecking order and Nance Jr would be a better defender than Isaac with 3 years of league growth ahead of him. So unless Ingram could play the 2, Isaac would very likely not get much playing time nor be our most effective option. _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk
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