2017 Lakers Draft Discussion Thread ** DRAFT DAY** (2: Ball, 27: Kuzma, 30: Hart and 42: Bryant )
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Who you got after Fultz?
Lonzo Ball
75%
 75%  [ 315 ]
Josh Jackson
15%
 15%  [ 64 ]
Jayson Tatum
1%
 1%  [ 8 ]
De'Aaron Fox
4%
 4%  [ 20 ]
Malik Monk
1%
 1%  [ 5 ]
Jonathan Isaac
0%
 0%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 416

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Chase.button07
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:34 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
It would take Isaac years to be able to hold up defensively against other 4s in the league at his size. He weighs less than Brandon did and you want him to be our defensive last line of defense at the power forward position? He'd have to play the 3 when he came into the league which is where BI is.

It is funny however that months and months ago I said that the "new KD" moniker that they had put on Ingram would go to Isaac and he'd be the beloved tall-lanky prospect and have things talked up over Ingram

Now here we are in April and he is being talked up on the defensive side and with more twitch than BI has

That said, Isaac is a very good prospect with a solid upside on the offensive and defensive end.

What BI showed to close the season after the Boston goose-egg though is something scary in a good way, so it's good to see how he comes into next season.

Randle's post ASB performance was also scary in terms of his potential with his stamina and diet having changed and the stamina increase he got from it he showed some scary things as well.

Both of which would rank above Isaac in the pecking order and Nance Jr would be a better defender than Isaac with 3 years of league growth ahead of him. So unless Ingram could play the 2, Isaac would very likely not get much playing time nor be our most effective option.



WEIGHT: 205 - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2017/ ©DraftExpress
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:37 pm    Post subject:

And he's actually listed at 210lbs by FSU. He could get to 220 and be a really solid player by year 3. I honestly don't expect the other prospects in this class to be fast starters - maybe Tatum in year 2. JJ if his jumper is legit
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:37 pm    Post subject:

What is it that you're looking at with Isaac? I watch him and see a SG. It's like watching Nick Young.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:39 pm    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
MJST wrote:
Just ran the ESPN Mock Draft 2017
http://www.espn.com/nba/lottery2017/mockdraft#

And actually got a draft order or scenario I wouldn't mind at all.

1. Philadelphia 76ers - Markelle Fultz
2. Los Angeles Lakers - Lonzo Ball
3. Boston Celtics - Josh Jackson
4. Phoenix Suns - Jayson Tatum
5. Orlando Magic - Malik Monk
6. Minnesota T'Wolves - Lauri Markkanen
7. New York Knicks - De'Aaron Fox
8. Sacramento Kings - Dennis Smith Jr.
9. Dallas Mavericks - Frank Ntilikina
10. Sacramento Kings - Jonathan Isaac
11. Charlotte Hornets - Zach Collins
12. Detroit Pistons - Harry Giles
13. Denver Nuggets - Jarrett Allen
14. Miami Heat - TJ Leaf



To me those are perfect landing spots for just about everyone. What do ya'll think?


keep malik away from orlando

pls i can't take having both monk and hezonja on that dumpster fire of a team


thats the City Beautiful to you buddy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
What is it that you're looking at with Isaac? I watch him and see a SG. It's like watching Nick Young.


He's a 6'11 modern(& overly skinny) PF with bad bend on defense, so he won't be able to consistently guard SFs
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
22 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
22 wrote:
I got a feeling Ball will wind up in Philly. Ball & Simmons running the team could be interesting or disastrous


His dad's act...that don't play in Philly. Will get run out of there...


What do you think about Ball & Simmons on the court together Yinomes?


Every possession is a shot clock violation because they wouldn't shoot.


they just keep passing back and forth to each other until Embiid would come and take the ball
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:42 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
And he's actually listed at 210lbs by FSU. He could get to 220 and be a really solid player by year 3. I honestly don't expect the other prospects in this class to be fast starters - maybe Tatum in year 2. JJ if his jumper is legit


Considering that fact and the potential kind of player both Randle and Ingram could be in 3 seasons, Isaac still may not see the court significantly.

So again my point remains about that. None of them will be fast starters, but depending on where Fultz goes he'll be a guy putting up nice numbers, Ball depending on where he goes will be putting up good numbers as an off ball 2 combo guard with great passing ability.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:45 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
What is it that you're looking at with Isaac? I watch him and see a SG. It's like watching Nick Young.


He's a 6'11 modern(& overly skinny) PF with bad bend on defense, so he won't be able to consistently guard SFs


He doesn't play in the paint. Watch Tatum. He's constantly in the paint. He plays like a PF. Watch Isaac. He's constantly behind the three point line. He'll catch out there and one dribble pull-up out there. He plays like a SG.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:50 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
And he's actually listed at 210lbs by FSU. He could get to 220 and be a really solid player by year 3. I honestly don't expect the other prospects in this class to be fast starters - maybe Tatum in year 2. JJ if his jumper is legit


Considering the fact of the kind of player both Randle and Ingram could be in 3 seasons, Isaac still may not see the court significantly.

So again my point remains about that. None of them will be fast starters, but depending on where Fultz goes he'll be a guy putting up nice numbers, Ball depending on where he goes will be putting up good numbers as an off ball 2 combo guard with great passing ability.


Randle plays a lot of 5 though. So if development is still a priority in this rebuilding time - trade LNJ+28 , give Isaac those minutes and maybe move up in the late 1st.
Ball's weaknesses are really at the forefront of my mind right now - I can't pin him in a ranking from #2-4 in the class --- and he's everywhere in this range among draft experts. He doesn't have much shift athletically when handling, he's stiff..and predictable in terms of creating his own shot. That doesn't scream early success, especially if teams play him at PG...which I think they'll do at first, if only at the bequest of Lonzo's ego.

Isaac doesn't really hurt Randle's game with us. Randle can still get 15mpg at both big positions.... He may actually be suited to play a smidge less than 30mpg really, but I think you'll optimistically disagree. Anyway, he can still get 30mpg
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:53 pm    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
What is it that you're looking at with Isaac? I watch him and see a SG. It's like watching Nick Young.


He's a 6'11 modern(& overly skinny) PF with bad bend on defense, so he won't be able to consistently guard SFs


He doesn't play in the paint. Watch Tatum. He's constantly in the paint. He plays like a PF. Watch Isaac. He's constantly behind the three point line. He'll catch out there and one dribble pull-up out there. He plays like a SG.


It's 2017 that's not abnormal
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:54 pm    Post subject:

3 years ago, we had 1 young promising player only, in JC. Next year we had Randle back and added Russell, Nance. Last year we had another 2 in Ingram and Zubac, not to mention Ennius and Nwaba. This year we may another 2 first rounders. We keep stocking young talents. I just wonder the direction of the team and whether we have enough playing time for them.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:57 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
MJST wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
And he's actually listed at 210lbs by FSU. He could get to 220 and be a really solid player by year 3. I honestly don't expect the other prospects in this class to be fast starters - maybe Tatum in year 2. JJ if his jumper is legit


Considering the fact of the kind of player both Randle and Ingram could be in 3 seasons, Isaac still may not see the court significantly.

So again my point remains about that. None of them will be fast starters, but depending on where Fultz goes he'll be a guy putting up nice numbers, Ball depending on where he goes will be putting up good numbers as an off ball 2 combo guard with great passing ability.


Randle plays a lot of 5 though. So if development is still a priority in this rebuilding time - trade LNJ+28 , give Isaac those minutes and maybe move up in the late 1st.
Ball's weaknesses are really at the forefront of my mind right now - I can't pin him in a ranking from #2-4 in the class --- and he's everywhere in this range among draft experts. He doesn't have much shift athletically when handling, he's stiff..and predictable in terms of creating his own shot. That doesn't scream early success, especially if teams play him at PG...which I think they'll do at first, if only at the bequest of Lonzo's ego.

Isaac doesn't really hurt Randle's game with us. Randle can still get 15mpg at both big positions.... He may actually be suited to play a smidge less than 30mpg really, but I think you'll optimistically disagree. Anyway, he can still get 30mpg


Randle played 5 because Zubac was hurt and Mozgov wasn't getting minutes.

And then what about Nance as well who had worked on his three as well as playing well at the 5, in fact our stretch to end the season was with Larry playing the 5.

I see in your scenario you'd trade Larry Nance Jr and the the 28th....

But I wouldn't cause Isaac ain't gonna be at Larry Nance Jr's level defensively or even in terms of what he can give to the team for a good 2-3 seasons like you said, and I'd much rather let the kids develop and get a player at a position we're weak at, like shooting guard so that we can move Clarkson back to the bench as the 6th man
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:03 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
MJST wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
And he's actually listed at 210lbs by FSU. He could get to 220 and be a really solid player by year 3. I honestly don't expect the other prospects in this class to be fast starters - maybe Tatum in year 2. JJ if his jumper is legit


Considering the fact of the kind of player both Randle and Ingram could be in 3 seasons, Isaac still may not see the court significantly.

So again my point remains about that. None of them will be fast starters, but depending on where Fultz goes he'll be a guy putting up nice numbers, Ball depending on where he goes will be putting up good numbers as an off ball 2 combo guard with great passing ability.


Randle plays a lot of 5 though. So if development is still a priority in this rebuilding time - trade LNJ+28 , give Isaac those minutes and maybe move up in the late 1st.
Ball's weaknesses are really at the forefront of my mind right now - I can't pin him in a ranking from #2-4 in the class --- and he's everywhere in this range among draft experts. He doesn't have much shift athletically when handling, he's stiff..and predictable in terms of creating his own shot. That doesn't scream early success, especially if teams play him at PG...which I think they'll do at first, if only at the bequest of Lonzo's ego.

Isaac doesn't really hurt Randle's game with us. Randle can still get 15mpg at both big positions.... He may actually be suited to play a smidge less than 30mpg really, but I think you'll optimistically disagree. Anyway, he can still get 30mpg


Randle played 5 because Zubac was hurt and Mozgov wasn't getting minutes.

And then what about Nance as well who had worked on his three as well as playing well at the 5, in fact our stretch to end the season was with Larry playing the 5.


Man Larry is an oft-injured back up, he deserves no though in regards to acquiring a possible future allstar.
Randle played a lot of 5 this year, and two guys opinions I trust (GT,Omar) think he might be a 5 period..
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:05 pm    Post subject:

When you have very versatile players, in this positionless era --- it's a case for BPA completely eclipsing 'fit'
Randle is that versitle
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:06 pm    Post subject:

i don't think very highly of isaac at all. it's fine to take a gamble on him if you're around 7-13 but his entire upside is in his measurables. don't really see any particular basketball skills of note.

it's like a blank slate of arms and legs. how do you evaluate that? i don't know
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:21 pm    Post subject:

I can't fit Isaac in my top 3 at all. Those belong to Fultz, Ball, and Jackson but not necessarily in that order...
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:30 pm    Post subject:

Quote:

I think you're confusing my "fit" point with a couple of things.

First, I'm just not a big fan of Tatum or Jackson, period. As for Tatum, second-tier athlete scorers just don't do it for me. Especially when they're not great shooters. So it's more that than anything. If I thought he was that great of a prospect, it'd be different. I get why you like him--he's polished. But say he's Carmelo Anthony: what does that get you exactly? So it's more than than anything. I'd rather take my chances with Ingram than either have a logjam with both. And I prefer Ingram over Tatum. And Jackson.


So here's my issue with your reasoning. You want the die-hard elite athlete, even if it takes a bit longer in the hopes of a home run franchise player.

But here I am, watching players like Paul George (definitely not LeBron tier athlete), James Harden (overweight SG out of ASU), and Stephen Curry (Dude is 14, right?) kick ass in the playoffs. Even Gordon Hayward isn't an elite athlete, but he's worth building around for his playmaking ability, and Utah isn't a contender, but it's not like they aren't 2 pieces away either.


Quote:

Second, you're acting like Tatum and Jackson are CLEARLY better prospects than Smith, Isaac, etc. I don't agree. The truth is, both Jackson AND Tatum, have MAJOR problems, more so than Ingram:


I'm confident about what I've watched between all of those guys, especially in terms of the context of the season and how their styles changed. Ingram wasn't an elite athlete or a dynamic ball-handler, yet, you have NO problem basically giving him the keys to the franchise. Yet Tatum, a bit older than Ingram, but definitely a better team defensive player, Iso player, post player, and rebounder than Ingram at Duke and don't like his game because of his style of play.

But I think you're completely disregarding that Tatum played "modern NBA style" with Catch and shoot and playmaking in February, and he torched the 3-point nets.

I guess what especially kills me about this, is I'm choosing Tatum for the same reason I loved Ingram last year. Proven ability to improve during the regular season. It wasn't as dramatic as Ingram (who was a total deer in headlights at the beginning of his freshman season), but Tatum still had a transformational style change in his game too.

I guess the irony is, you think they have MUCH bigger issues than Ingram had at Duke, and I so completely disagree with that opinion. People are assuming that Ingram's last month of the season directly converts to the beginning of next season. That isn't always the case. People asked who I thought was better, back in February. Tatum was CLEARLY a better player than Ingram, nearly all season long.

Quote:
Tatum: not a great athlete, problems vs athletic SF's (of which there are plenty in the NBA);


Same said of Ingram last year too. Even Jabari Parker.
Quote:

Jackson: Could be a role-player on offense in the NBA--inconsistent form on his jumper, poor shot mechanics, poor shot creation. Also older than Ingram


So, grossly disagree. He changed his form midseason, shot 38.5% in January, 47.8% in February, and 40% in March on solid number of attempts behind the arc?

Poor shot creation? Dude created shots for his own point guard. Are you absolutely sure we're watching the same player? The guy is the best playmaker on the team for pete's sake.

I can buy poor shot mechanics, but I really think you missed a good chunk of games where he took out multiple hitches in his shot, and even started showing hints of an Iso midrange game late in the season.
Quote:

Both are inferior prospects to Ingram, IMO.


If they were in the same draft, the only advantage Ingram had over both guys was being 1 year younger, that's it.
Quote:

Third, all of the players that you're bringing up with the Lakers, Patterson, NVE... all SECOND ROUNDERS, or late 1st at best! I'd draft a SF in a NY minute in the 2nd, or with the late 1st. Clearly they're meant to be backups, and if they evolve into anything else, great. But you just don't draft what I consider lesser players with a top-3 pick when you have a player at that position. Its almost like wasting the pick.


The Lakers hit on BPAs regardless of draft choice. The biggest reason why I REALLY REALLY hate "drafting for fit" is because I think it cost the Lakers a championship in 2004 and 2005, and possibly the relationship between Shaq and Bryant.

What, we couldn't have used Carlos Boozer off the bench? But no, let's "Draft for fit and get Chris Jefferies." How did his career turn out?

I don't buy any of it. The best part of the 80s Laker team is, everyone had their chance to shine. Kareem was a #1 option. Then Worthy. Then Scott. The Lakers once replenished their talent continuously with BPAs. ONce it was draft for fit, it all went out the window.

Quote:
Just not getting inferior players at a spot we JUST drafted a kid at to develop in.


2002. Carlos Boozer? Or Chris Jefferies?
2003. Leandro Barbosa? Or Brian Cook?

I think it makes a point that those "fit" players didn't even have the talent to stick in the league long, even when the system catered to their talents.

Hence, the BPA mentality.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:37 pm    Post subject:

iceberg01 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
iceberg01 wrote:
Thanks for the post of the article, Mike. Very interesting.

No question Isaac needs a lot of work on his body, and isn't a jaw-dropping athlete. But my question about him is, what kind of player does he become if he keeps growing and puts on weight? If he's 7'0" 230, and more polished skills, what does that look like?

And, to me, just the fact that he's 6'11" & giving the best offensive SF in the class some fits on D actually speaks to his ability and mobility. On the other hand, he should be out muscling and beating Tatum's brains out in the post. But very interesting.


You're banking on size.

And then my point goes again, what's the point of all that size if he doesn't do anything with it? He's still not an elite shot creator. He's still not an elite playmaker. It just makes him a finisher, like Porzingis. A stud role player.

This isn't even a Dirk Nowitzki comparison either. Dirk learned the jumpshot his first 2 years in the league. He was known as a downhill, strong, ball-handling PF in transition, repeatedly and beat the Team USA U19 team, by himself.

Kobe faced bigger defenders all of the time. Didn't phase him.

Tatum is already showing signs of that footwork.


And you're talking about polish with Tatum. I'm talking about upside in Isaac. Not an elite shot creator at 19 doesn't mean he can't be at 23.

You've said many times in the past that players can become better athletes with strength training. Why do you suddenly feel different with Isaac?


So what's wrong with talking about polish with Tatum? Dude is 84%tile in Iso and 99% in Post end of season. If this were the 80s, you draft him #1. But, it's 2017, and before Duke's guards stopped passing him the ball, he was up to 39.6% behind the arc with modern basketball play and 3apg w playmaking.

Imagine Tatum getting stronger, more efficient, and running pick and pops? Hell, just imagine the Lakers having a go-to-guy in the first place?

All this complaining about Tatum turning into Carmelo Anthony, and at least a young Melo got Denver into the 2nd round of the playoffs, and he was a bit of a playmaker back then. If Tatum turns into that, worst case scenario, he's a TREMENDOUS asset.

Quote:
Why do you suddenly feel different with Isaac?


Because Isaac is starting from a lower floor in terms of strength, twitch, and conditioning.

You make it sound like that Iso creation, proven results, and 3-point improvement can be had overnight. I'd argue, that some NBA players take 4-6 years to get to that level, and that's FAR more difficult to gain skill-wise than strength and conditioning.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:41 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Ntilinkina learns to play with pace (or finds success at SG instead) , or Fox develops a jumper - which is more likely? I'm more inclined to bet on the 6'6 guy with a 7foot wingspan, PG skills and jumper on the cusp. Doesn't that make sense?


I love the idea of a 6'6" 7'WS George Hill, but I'm not sure you can build around that.

Slow release on the J..
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:49 pm    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
What is it that you're looking at with Isaac? I watch him and see a SG. It's like watching Nick Young.


He's a 6'11 modern(& overly skinny) PF with bad bend on defense, so he won't be able to consistently guard SFs


He doesn't play in the paint. Watch Tatum. He's constantly in the paint. He plays like a PF. Watch Isaac. He's constantly behind the three point line. He'll catch out there and one dribble pull-up out there. He plays like a SG.


I'm even enamored with the idea of Isaac as a 3 and D/stretch 4/super role player, but I can't imagine him being a really dynamic ball-handler/playmaker. Total system fit guy.

If the Lakers trade down for #8 and #10, this is a no brainer for me. Just draft for fit" and get Zach Collins and hopefully Jonathan Isaac and call it a day, and be superduper loaded on PFs and Cs.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:52 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
22 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
22 wrote:
I got a feeling Ball will wind up in Philly. Ball & Simmons running the team could be interesting or disastrous


His dad's act...that don't play in Philly. Will get run out of there...


What do you think about Ball & Simmons on the court together Yinomes?


Every possession is a shot clock violation because they wouldn't shoot.


they just keep passing back and forth to each other until Embiid would come and take the ball


It's a tennis match offense, then Embiid would get out his phone, and tweet a photo of them two passing it.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:53 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
When you have very versatile players, in this positionless era --- it's a case for BPA completely eclipsing 'fit'
Randle is that versitle


To me, positionless means, get all the guard skills on the floor, and just have enough size to get boards and play effective defense.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:01 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
What is it that you're looking at with Isaac? I watch him and see a SG. It's like watching Nick Young.


He's a 6'11 modern(& overly skinny) PF with bad bend on defense, so he won't be able to consistently guard SFs


He doesn't play in the paint. Watch Tatum. He's constantly in the paint. He plays like a PF. Watch Isaac. He's constantly behind the three point line. He'll catch out there and one dribble pull-up out there. He plays like a SG.


I'm even enamored with the idea of Isaac as a 3 and D/stretch 4/super role player, but I can't imagine him being a really dynamic ball-handler/playmaker. Total system fit guy.

If the Lakers trade down for #8 and #10, this is a no brainer for me. Just draft for fit" and get Zach Collins and hopefully Jonathan Isaac and call it a day, and be superduper loaded on PFs and Cs.


I don't know why the Lakers would get two more 19 year olds, I think they are even only begrudgingly considering it because of the talent in the top 3 this year. If this was year 1 or 2 of this entire process then they may do that, but I don't see that happening, nor do I understand why it would.

When the probability of Fultz, Ball, Jackson or Tatum. I don't think the comination of 8 and 11 would be better.

If Tatum shows he can capably play the 2 cause of those Drew Hanlen workouts he may be worth a strong look, but I think Jackson will already prove he can.

Then again I could also see Boston if they get the 1st pick drafting Jackson 1st.
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romeo
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:24 pm    Post subject:

2011 draft had derrick williams drafted 2nd, klay thompson drafted 11th, kawhi leonard drafted 15th, jimmy butler drafted 30th, isaiah thomas drafted 60th.

ive said it before, but if we keep the pick, and after workouts(big factor we all WONT see, at least not in depth), and there is no clear cut #2-3 player, then i would explore trading down for sac's 2 picks if theyre open to trading it. markannen might be the next dirk, DSJ could be a steal, we see the argument for isaacs potential, tatum or fox might fall. 2 picks in the top 10(see sig.) would be nice, we'd have so much youth id probably make trades before 2018 free agency hits.

jerry west had kobe go against michael cooper when he worked out for them, if i was magic id put ingram against tatum and jackson and d.lo against all the guards. that would be awesome, but i dont think any of their agents would be ok with that
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:27 pm    Post subject:

i dont see fultz dropping. he's probably going to pull a towns and workout for the team with the #1 pick and get that guarantee
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