Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:55 pm Post subject:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Damn I just watched Tatum's weaknesses, now I can actually somewhat understand where @44thelogo is coming from when he says Tatum doesn't have a standout NBA skill.
Can we change my username to FlipFlop or DoesntWatchWeaknesses
Tatum was my one prospect outside of Futlz who I didn't see major question marks in - but now I do. Tatum will struggle driving against SFs, but struggle finishing vs PFs. Defense is also a huge question mark IMO - high stance and below average lateral quickness is a baddd combo, combined with some disinterest
I just see both sides of the coin on all of these prospects. I don't like their floors. Not in love with any of them except Fultz.
Their ceilings still make it a good draft class though.
Fultz
Ball
Isaac
Jackson/Tatum
Monk
Ntilikina
DSJ
Hartenstein
Fox
Personally, I don't get so caught up in those weaknesses, because I think people are prone to highlighting those weaknesses instead of accenting a player's strengths.
We have prospects that are 2-3 years in as Laker players. Think about their weaknesses coming out of the NCAA level until now. Are you disappointed, or more so, now that you're thinking about those weaknesses?
I'm just not worried about it. Magic Johnson didn't come out with a 3 point shot. Tracy McGrady and Michael Jordan didn't show legit range outside of 15' out of HS or UNC. Charles Barkley was too short. Byron Scott didn't attack the basket enough and was a straight line driver. James Worthy struggled with a jumpshot outside of 18'. See, what kind of rabbit hole we go down?
Did any of these things matter THAT much? Certainly, not in the era they played.
Hell, let's highlight Curry's lack of physicality, Klay Thompson's perceived average athletic ability, and Draymond being too short for PF or C. If we take it a bit further, LaMarcus Aldridge was soft for a PF, Kawhi had a broken jumpshot and couldn't change direction, a tweener in the worst way, Parker had no jumpshot when he was drafted, etc.
The only thing that separates them from their weaknesses is how well they implemented NBA level skills, hence my emphasis on work ethic. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
I think a lot of the concerns about Ball are assuaged if you consider him to be a SG.
This. Dude is 6'6", has unlimited range and solid hops. If he just didn't pass the ball so well everyone would call him a SG. The fact that he has elite court vision gets everyone confused because they think only point guards are supposed to be able to pass like that. It's basically the problem people have with Dlo, only more extreme.
He has no mid range game and no PnR experience either. And how is he defensively against NBA guards?
GT & the analytics both say he would be pretty good guarding the 2. That's good enough for me.
Damn I just watched Tatum's weaknesses, now I can actually somewhat understand where @44thelogo is coming from when he says Tatum doesn't have a standout NBA skill.
Can we change my username to FlipFlop or DoesntWatchWeaknesses
Tatum was my one prospect outside of Futlz who I didn't see major question marks in - but now I do. Tatum will struggle driving against SFs, but struggle finishing vs PFs. Defense is also a huge question mark IMO - high stance and below average lateral quickness is a baddd combo, combined with some disinterest
I just see both sides of the coin on all of these prospects. I don't like their floors. Not in love with any of them except Fultz.
Their ceilings still make it a good draft class though.
Fultz
Ball
Isaac
Jackson/Tatum
Monk
Ntilikina
DSJ
Hartenstein
Fox
Personally, I don't get so caught up in those weaknesses, because I think people are prone to highlighting those weaknesses instead of accenting a player's strengths.
We have prospects that are 2-3 years in as Laker players. Think about their weaknesses coming out of the NCAA level until now. Are you disappointed, or more so, now that you're thinking about those weaknesses?
I'm just not worried about it. Magic Johnson didn't come out with a 3 point shot. Tracy McGrady and Michael Jordan didn't show legit range outside of 15' out of HS or UNC. Charles Barkley was too short. Byron Scott didn't attack the basket enough and was a straight line driver. James Worthy struggled with a jumpshot outside of 18'. See, what kind of rabbit hole we go down?
Did any of these things matter THAT much? Certainly, not in the era they played.
Hell, let's highlight Curry's lack of physicality, Klay Thompson's perceived average athletic ability, and Draymond being too short for PF or C. If we take it a bit further, LaMarcus Aldridge was soft for a PF, Kawhi had a broken jumpshot and couldn't change direction, a tweener in the worst way, Parker had no jumpshot when he was drafted, etc.
The only thing that separates them from their weaknesses is how well they implemented NBA level skills, hence my emphasis on work ethic.
This is a good point. Russell's, Randle's, Ingram's weaknesses are all overshadowed by potential and strengths.
A lot of guys draft weaknesses do keep them sacked as players though - but that might be more so for players with weak strengths. Which is pretty much your point.
Sometimes these guys weaknesses are in direct opposition of their strength's though. Tatum's lack of foot speed and finishing issues, potentially really dampen his scoring ability. On the other hand someone like Monk - even if his ball handling is a tad below average(I think it's average), he can still shoot the rock and be impactful that way. So in which skillset the weakness' lie is important.
Watching more Tatum, I think he moves like a very agile small PF. Just like how Lonzo moves like a SG - both are stiff and not quick - high and tight hips.
But will Tatum be able to finish against PFs, defend them, rebound?
Seeing question marks in each prospect.
Haven't watched too much tape of any of them, so my opinion's are evolving.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:20 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Haven't watched too much tape of any of them, so my opinion's are evolving
.
Definitely understandable, and admittedly, my opinions are constantly evolving with new information as well.
I've listened/read when people talk down about Tatum's shots at the rim get swatted at an unusually high rate, but on HoopsMath, he still finishes 62% at the rim. Not mindblowing, but solid. It's actually not far different from Randle at roughly 65% at the rim.
But unlike Randle's bulldozing, Tatum can compensate by drawing fouls through footwork. Tatum's quickness is within a 3' space (e.g. footwork/triple threat/jabstep things), not a traditional straight-line slash guy. To me, that's no different than a post prime Kobe Bryant. Even if Tatum shoots 44% and averaged 25ppg, I'm good with that.
38.1%FTr, is solid.
Quote:
But will Tatum be able to finish against PFs, defend them, rebound?
Will Randle be able to finish against PFs, become a rim protector?
Can Russell handle defending PGs?
I think if you're projecting Tatum as a franchise player, those questions are more relevant. Like I said, the only security I have is faith in the work ethic to do things. I've seen too many exceptions of players transforming their games altogether.
The analytics are in Lonzo Ball's favor almost across the board when it comes to defense vs. Fultz, yet Fultz is in the 94th percentile in Iso defense. It's a value thing too. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:25 pm Post subject:
yinoma2001 wrote:
DoubleClutch wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
I think a lot of the concerns about Ball are assuaged if you consider him to be a SG.
This. Dude is 6'6", has unlimited range and solid hops. If he just didn't pass the ball so well everyone would call him a SG. The fact that he has elite court vision gets everyone confused because they think only point guards are supposed to be able to pass like that. It's basically the problem people have with Dlo, only more extreme.
He has no mid range game and no PnR experience either. And how is he defensively against NBA guards?
very frail frame...narrow shoulders...not built to add much muscle
I think a lot of the concerns about Ball are assuaged if you consider him to be a SG.
This. Dude is 6'6", has unlimited range and solid hops. If he just didn't pass the ball so well everyone would call him a SG. The fact that he has elite court vision gets everyone confused because they think only point guards are supposed to be able to pass like that. It's basically the problem people have with Dlo, only more extreme.
He has no mid range game and no PnR experience either. And how is he defensively against NBA guards?
very frail frame...narrow shoulders...not built to add much muscle
I just realized that if we don't keep our top 3 pick then we also don't have our second round pick... smh _________________ “Life is too short. You have to keep it moving.” - Kobe
After the news about Lonzo not getting a show deal from Adidas or Nike because of his dad, I don't even know if we should draft him anymore. Not because of his talent but this whole dynamic between his delusional father and his meddling ways will just add fuel to the fire and I hate drama around the Lakers we don't need more of that. And when we inevitably have our downs next year I don't want to have to hear Lavar spewing crap about how his boy is being mistreated and how he deserves better and (bleep)
After the news about Lonzo not getting a show deal from Adidas or Nike because of his dad, I don't even know if we should draft him anymore. Not because of his talent but this whole dynamic between his delusional father and his meddling ways will just add fuel to the fire and I hate drama around the Lakers we don't need more of that. And when we inevitably have our downs next year I don't want to have to hear Lavar spewing crap about how his boy is being mistreated and how he deserves better and (bleep)
He is a jackass and isn't doing his kids any favors. That white guy comment he made was pretty insensitive and pretty racist.
The reality is we are more than likely going to lose the pick and if we do get it it's more likely that we trade it or draft someone else than ball. The chances are fairly slim we end up with him. If he ends up on another team, I won't exactly be rooting for him to succeed...all that bragging and posturing isn't my style.
After the news about Lonzo not getting a show deal from Adidas or Nike because of his dad, I don't even know if we should draft him anymore. Not because of his talent but this whole dynamic between his delusional father and his meddling ways will just add fuel to the fire and I hate drama around the Lakers we don't need more of that. And when we inevitably have our downs next year I don't want to have to hear Lavar spewing crap about how his boy is being mistreated and how he deserves better and (bleep)
He is a jackass and isn't doing his kids any favors. That white guy comment he made was pretty insensitive and pretty racist.
The reality is we are more than likely going to lose the pick and if we do get it it's more likely that we trade it or draft someone else than ball. The chances are fairly slim we end up with him. If he ends up on another team, I won't exactly be rooting for him to succeed...all that bragging and posturing isn't my style.
Yeah I think that if we get the 1 or 2 pick we will most likely take either Jackson or Fultz and if it's 3 we might just trade it anyways so most likely it won't happen. I like Lonzo he seems like a nice kid but drafting him is like dating a nice girl with a super annoying dad, sooner or later you gonna hate the girl because of her pops Haha
I think a lot of the concerns about Ball are assuaged if you consider him to be a SG.
This. Dude is 6'6", has unlimited range and solid hops. If he just didn't pass the ball so well everyone would call him a SG. The fact that he has elite court vision gets everyone confused because they think only point guards are supposed to be able to pass like that. It's basically the problem people have with Dlo, only more extreme.
He has no mid range game and no PnR experience either. And how is he defensively against NBA guards?
I have no idea how he is defensively against NBA guards. Haven't seen any tape of him guarding them. If you have any, please post it.
More to the point, are any rookie guards good at defense?
If you only want players that are really good at everything I don't know what to tell you. Ball has 2 skills that project to be elite level in the NBA, shooting and passing. That's more than most players and it's why he's a consensus top 2 pick. _________________ “This goes far beyond paychecks”
Thoughts on Jawun Evans from Ok. State at 28? Mocks have him going around that range
Reminds me a bit of Kemba Walker coming out of college, big time scorer/playmaker, has a good floater and can shoot, not the purest shooter but a shot creator and can navigate the P&R. Size is probably the biggest concern but to get someone who is proven to be dynamic and productive at 28 would be a good find. I can see him playing alongside Dlo pretty well and serving as Clarkson insurance.
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:45 am Post subject:
ingle wrote:
Thoughts on Jawun Evans from Ok. State at 28? Mocks have him going around that range
Reminds me a bit of Kemba Walker coming out of college, big time scorer/playmaker, has a good floater and can shoot, not the purest shooter but a shot creator and can navigate the P&R. Size is probably the biggest concern but to get someone who is proven to be dynamic and productive at 28 would be a good find. I can see him playing alongside Dlo pretty well and serving as Clarkson insurance.
if he was 6'4", he would be a lottery pick the last couple years.
Joined: 02 Jun 2009 Posts: 2415 Location: Far from home
Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:51 am Post subject:
DoubleClutch wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
DoubleClutch wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
I think a lot of the concerns about Ball are assuaged if you consider him to be a SG.
This. Dude is 6'6", has unlimited range and solid hops. If he just didn't pass the ball so well everyone would call him a SG. The fact that he has elite court vision gets everyone confused because they think only point guards are supposed to be able to pass like that. It's basically the problem people have with Dlo, only more extreme.
He has no mid range game and no PnR experience either. And how is he defensively against NBA guards?
I have no idea how he is defensively against NBA guards. Haven't seen any tape of him guarding them. If you have any, please post it.
More to the point, are any rookie guards good at defense?
If you only want players that are really good at everything I don't know what to tell you. Ball has 2 skills that project to be elite level in the NBA, shooting and passing. That's more than most players and it's why he's a consensus top 2 pick.
Through most of the college season, UCLA played much 3-2 zone, putting Lonzo middle, up top. Pretty effective in that role. In man-man coverage, he tended to get beat by his man on dribble attack but often could turn to either poke away the ball or shot-blocked the floater or lay-in. Not elite in college getting underway in any one direction. Was recognized with a PAC-12 honorable mention defensive team. _________________ “These GOAT discussions are fun distractions while sitting around waiting for the pizza to be served.”
Thoughts on Jawun Evans from Ok. State at 28? Mocks have him going around that range
Reminds me a bit of Kemba Walker coming out of college, big time scorer/playmaker, has a good floater and can shoot, not the purest shooter but a shot creator and can navigate the P&R. Size is probably the biggest concern but to get someone who is proven to be dynamic and productive at 28 would be a good find. I can see him playing alongside Dlo pretty well and serving as Clarkson insurance.
if he was 6'4", he would be a lottery pick the last couple years.
I have a prediction on this Lonzo and Lavar Ball drama. It's a pretty sad prediction, and I hope it never gets to that point but I feel like this is just going to end in a court case between the two like 5-7 years from now.
Lavar will continue to try to make as much profit off of Lonzo until he realizes what's going on. _________________ “Life is too short. You have to keep it moving.” - Kobe
I have a prediction on this Lonzo and Lavar Ball drama. It's a pretty sad prediction, and I hope it never gets to that point but I feel like this is just going to end in a court case between the two like 5-7 years from now.
Lavar will continue to try to make as much profit off of Lonzo until he realizes what's going on.
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