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2017 Lakers Draft Discussion Thread ** DRAFT DAY** (2: Ball, 27: Kuzma, 30: Hart and 42: Bryant )
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Who you got after Fultz?

Lonzo Ball

75%

[ 315 ]

Josh Jackson

15%

[ 64 ]

Jayson Tatum

[ 8 ]

De'Aaron Fox

[ 20 ]

Malik Monk

[ 5 ]

Jonathan Isaac

[ 4 ]

Total Votes : 416

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BigGameHames
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:34 pm Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:

BigGameHames wrote:

Mike@LG wrote:

adkindo wrote:

BigGameHames wrote:

Mike@LG wrote:

Tony Anapolis wrote:

Hey, not to worry. If we draft Ball, we know in the critical point of the game he will make the right pass! To who you ask? I really don't know yet?

It's like Tom Brady needs to pass to himself when his receivers keep dropping catches.

That's a terrible analogy for your argument. Tom Brady makes no names into pro bowlers. Similar to the effect many of us think Lonzo could have on his teammates.

like that Moss guy....have not heard much from him since he left Brady.

I'll quit on the terrible football analogies, but apparently, Lonzo Ball and DLO are enough to get the Lakers to the championship based on style of play.

I just think it's a bit odd, considering Cleveland, GSW, Houston, and other great teams basically play with elite scoring, secondary playmaking wings/guards, not CP3 pass first traditional PGs.

I mean, Ball is a better shooter than Rajon Rondo out of college, but once Pierce, KG, and Ray Allen were gone, Rondo wasn't the same.

CP3 is ball dominant, Curry and Ball aren't. Cleveland has Lebron. Houston isn't getting to the finals with this current squad and how they play.

Other high assist PGs that aren't as reliant on scoring haven't been as effective with team record.

People want to look at championships right off the bat. There are quite a few steps before getting there.

GSW won the championship because they move the ball well. They also had their scorers in place.

The Lakers, don't even have that guy. It's not like Lonzo Ball landed in GSW and all of a sudden they started winning. The scorers were in place and they were well coached. The rest took care of itself. They hit quite a few contested shots and even more poor shot selection shots than the rest of the league. But it doesn't matter. Why? Klay, Curry, Durant, scorers first, playmaking second. They have Dray facilitate to them.

But I guess if you're comfortable with Lonzo Ball facilitating to DLO, then I'd understand.

Frankly, it doesn't make sense to me. I have trouble imagining DLO as a great scoring option. Teams like Cleveland and GSW, basically have 2 #1 types. GSW arguably has 3 #1 types.

The Lakers don't have that one guy.

IF IF IF IF they land someone like Blake Griffin or Paul George, then yeah, I definitely understand. Like I said, I have Lonzo #2. Unfortunately, the draft is before FA season. When the Lakers need a bucket, only DLO, in the past 2 weeks, has really stood out as a go-to guy. Can't rely on anyone else.

Cleveland nor GSW have Lonzo Ball type passing/vision. They're fine.

We've talked about fit but that doesn't affect who I would draft. I just think Ball is the BPA so the Lakers lacking an elite scorer isn't going to make me lean in favor of Fultz over Ball. Rosters be damned, I just think Ball is more valuable because of the things he's good at.

It's funny that you say Blake Griffen/PG because those guys are my dream off-season. Draft Ball, trade Ingram/Randle/Clarkson for an upset PG, sign Griffen.
Ball/Russell/PG/Griffen/Moz or Zub
I think that team makes the playoffs year one and is a contender in a few years.

Mike@LG
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Location: Orange County, CA

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:35 pm Post subject:

Practice wrote:

Mike@LG wrote:

adkindo wrote:

BigGameHames wrote:

Mike@LG wrote:

Tony Anapolis wrote:

Hey, not to worry. If we draft Ball, we know in the critical point of the game he will make the right pass! To who you ask? I really don't know yet?

It's like Tom Brady needs to pass to himself when his receivers keep dropping catches.

That's a terrible analogy for your argument. Tom Brady makes no names into pro bowlers. Similar to the effect many of us think Lonzo could have on his teammates.

like that Moss guy....have not heard much from him since he left Brady.

To be fair, that was Rondo post-ACL tear.

I thought you'd say that.

2011-2012 with KG and Allen in decline: 39W 27L
2012-2013 Ray Allen gone: 41-40

All Star Seasons for Rondo too. He needed his weapons.

ACL tear happened in '13-'14 season

2-3 legit years of 10+ 2point FG attempts per game. 10-11apg. 11ppg-13.7ppg.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01.html
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Last edited by Mike@LG on Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

adkindo
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:35 pm Post subject:

MickMgl wrote:

Mike@LG wrote:

MickMgl wrote:

BigGameHames wrote:

I understand the high usage tough shot maker argument but completely disagree with it. Those players aren't as valuable as guys who limit the amount of tough shots your team needs to take IMO. If that's the reason people want Fultz, I think they are putting value in the wrong skills.

Really? We got quite a few championships from the toughest shot maker in the game for awhile...

Got quite a few championships the other way, too.

we had the weakest shot maker in the game?

Mike@LG
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:37 pm Post subject:

Quote:

It's funny that you say Blake Griffen/PG because those guys are my dream off-season. Draft Ball, trade Ingram/Randle/Clarkson for an upset PG, sign Griffen.
Ball/Russell/PG/Griffen/Moz or Zub
I think that team makes the playoffs year one and is a contender in a few years.

Considering the Laker past, even with the new President and GM, I'll believe an elite signing FA when I see it.
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Baron Von Humongous
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:38 pm Post subject:

If Ball is efficient enough to produce a bunch of +4 OBPM seasons on 20% USG, I don't care if he never drives and kicks.

BigGameHames
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:39 pm Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:

Quote:

Considering the Laker past, even with the new President and GM, I'll believe an elite signing FA when I see it.

I hear ya but PG would help and even with only PG I think that's a great backcourt in a few years. Ibaka could fill that BG role to a lesser extent too.

Mike@LG
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:40 pm Post subject:

MickMgl wrote:

Mike@LG wrote:

MickMgl wrote:

BigGameHames wrote:

Really? We got quite a few championships from the toughest shot maker in the game for awhile...

Got quite a few championships the other way, too.

You mean with 55% career FG, Iso shot creators in Kareem and James Worthy?

So, even before Magic was on the team, Kareem shot 58% 2-point FG...

Pity I can't find James Worthy's Iso FG%, but he wasn't exactly getting 5 dunks a game, especially in the playoffs. He was still 55% to 60% as a 2nd/3rd option player with shot volume.
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Mike@LG
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:42 pm Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:

Mike@LG wrote:

Quote:

Considering the Laker past, even with the new President and GM, I'll believe an elite signing FA when I see it.

I hear ya but PG would help and even with only PG I think that's a great backcourt in a few years. Ibaka could fill that BG role to a lesser extent too.

Once again, an assumption we land those guys.

Still, I don't see why it would be any different if it was PG13, Fultz, DLO.
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Mike@LG
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:43 pm Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

If Ball is efficient enough to produce a bunch of +4 OBPM seasons on 20% USG, I don't care if he never drives and kicks.

That's what makes him an enigma. I don't think anyone has ever seen that translate to the NBA level.
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BigGameHames
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:43 pm Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:

BigGameHames wrote:

Mike@LG wrote:

Quote:

Considering the Laker past, even with the new President and GM, I'll believe an elite signing FA when I see it.

I hear ya but PG would help and even with only PG I think that's a great backcourt in a few years. Ibaka could fill that BG role to a lesser extent too.

Once again, an assumption we land those guys.

Still, I don't see why it would be any different if it was PG13, Fultz, DLO.

Again, I like Ball because I think he is better not fit. But since you asked I think the offense would be too take turny like Portland where it would be more fluid and have more ball and player movement with Lonzo.

adkindo
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:46 pm Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:

Quote:

Considering the Laker past, even with the new President and GM, I'll believe an elite signing FA when I see it.

we are focused on 2032 when LBJ Jr. hits the FA market.

Mike@LG
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:50 pm Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:

Mike@LG wrote:

BigGameHames wrote:

Mike@LG wrote:

Quote:

Considering the Laker past, even with the new President and GM, I'll believe an elite signing FA when I see it.

I hear ya but PG would help and even with only PG I think that's a great backcourt in a few years. Ibaka could fill that BG role to a lesser extent too.

Once again, an assumption we land those guys.

Still, I don't see why it would be any different if it was PG13, Fultz, DLO.

Considering Portland's recent success, I don't see why that's so bad. They actually have a 3rd guy that helps facilitate between Lillard and CJ, and it explains a lot of their more recent success.

Whether it's Portland or an elite western team, it's being scoring dominant players, pass second types, that have dominated.

Even legit assist guys with scoring options like Rubio? Jeff Teague? Jrue Holiday? They have the scoring options and they're not having as much success.

The current NBA almost dictates that each player on the floor can score at all 3 levels. This is a big reason why scoring PGs/scoring wings with secondary playmaking have dominated most recently.

It shouldn't be a surprise. The Lakers did it with Bryant. Spurs developed it with Tony Parker. Cleveland with LeBron/Kyrie. GSW with Curry/Klay before Durant even showed up.

I definitely understand the idea of "Lonzo Ball gets guys great looks." Well great. That wouldn't be a problem if a bunch of players on the Lakers could actually score effectively at 3 levels.

They don't. UCLA guys? For the most part, they do. THAT's the big difference to me. That tells me why his OBPM is so great despite low usage. Leaf actually scores all 3 levels effectively. I can't even trust Randle outside of the paint. Leaf is the one guy that helps UCLA run. I'd even argue that Leaf and Lonzo complement each other so perfectly, and it shows with their outrageous shooting percentages.
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Mike@LG
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:58 pm Post subject:

adkindo wrote:

Mike@LG wrote:

adkindo wrote:

I am sure this has been discussed on this board, but when you consider the pace that UCLA played at, and remove that advantage or just look at the per 100 possessions, I think Lonzo's stats are inflated.

Fultz - 35.7 PPG / 8.8 RPG / 9.1 APG - FT Attempts - 10.4

Ball - 22.4 PPG / 9.2 RPG /11.7 APG - FT Attempts - 4.2

Jackson- 29.7 PPG / 13.4 RPG / 5.4 APG - FT Attempts - 9.0

Tatum - 28.9 PPG / 12.6 RPG / 3.7 APG - FT Attempts - 8.2

Lonzo will play that pace or at least forcefully do so. Fultz really stands out IMHO, and that's why I think of him as basically, James Harden.

It's not the best formula, but I see what just Nurkic does for Lillard and CJ and think, yeah, that's something to build on. But that 2nd scorer needs to be in place.

as a Jordan Clarkson fan, I would advise Lonzo to get to the line more...it is very difficult to be a consistent scorer in the NBA without getting to the line 5-7x a night.

That's what frustrates me. Tall PG, doesn't use his body to draw defensive contact or spin away. His shots are all by feel, that he will not dictate shots to a fault, and defer teammates to dictate shots.
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USCandLakers
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:04 pm Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:

adkindo wrote:

BigGameHames wrote:

Mike@LG wrote:

Tony Anapolis wrote:

Hey, not to worry. If we draft Ball, we know in the critical point of the game he will make the right pass! To who you ask? I really don't know yet?

It's like Tom Brady needs to pass to himself when his receivers keep dropping catches.

That's a terrible analogy for your argument. Tom Brady makes no names into pro bowlers. Similar to the effect many of us think Lonzo could have on his teammates.

like that Moss guy....have not heard much from him since he left Brady.

GSW and SAS are both filled with passers. Curry, Draymond, Iggy are damn good passers. The latter two pass first. On the last Spurs championship team you had Parker, Manu, Diaw and Duncan. Even Splitter could pass. Now they have Pau.

If we want an offense like either of those two teams, we're going need players that can see 2-3 moves ahead. We have DLO. Ball would go a long way to getting our offense to click like those teams, which are the gold standards.

With that said, I do believe Fultz could carve out a role not too different from Tony Parker in 12-14 in a motion offense. He's a capable passer. Get him developing within that type of offense early on and sky's the limit.
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MickMgl
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:06 pm Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:

_________________

There's A LOT I like about Lonzo, but I honestly don't expect him to be more than a 16ppg scorer simply because he's a low USG, high pass rate type of player

Quote:

The 16ppg type PGs with great assist numbers like Rubio, Jrue Holiday, Elfrid Payton..... Not so much.

Scarier?

Even the 5-6apg guys that are legit scorers like Dame, Isaiah Thomas, Gordan Dragic, Kemba Walker... win games. Don't even need big assist numbers.

In my opinion, Ball is a good bet to average considerably more than 5-6 apg, so the ppg is not really important as long as he's efficient and improves the overall efficiency of the team's offense as a whole.

MickMgl
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:13 pm Post subject:

adkindo wrote:

Ball enables that pace with his push ability and ability to rebound & run. Alford didn't just suddenly decide to coach a faster pace.

MickMgl
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:15 pm Post subject:

Raijin wrote:

MickMgl wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

adkindo wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

allNet wrote:

From what I've seen teams attacked UCLA's zone and Ball with high screens, the other players had to shade over on zone to help Ball. Alford would often stick Ball in the corner afterwards.

You mean UCLA's bigs helped in the PnR?

UCLA was a poorly coached defensive team and generally has been under Steve Alford - it wasn't uncommon for defenders to over-help, miscommunicate, etc.

any truth to the claim that Alford only pulled out of Indiana job after Indiana informed him they were hiring someone else?

That's the word. Alford's agent was pursuing the position and Indiana was interested, but during Sweet 16 week Indiana AD Glass started to get inernal pushback against Seve. When Alford's agent - who was the main one pushing the Alford to IU as "done deal" narrative to guys like Dakich - tried to pin down Glass, he was informed that Alford was but "one of a handful" of candidates and Alford's agent quickly pulled his client out of the running (obviously IU was in negotiations with Miller and Alford had become a backup plan). This was on Friday a few hours before the UK game. So when Alford stated after the loss that he was 100% with UCLA, he basically learned he wasn't getting the IU job that afternoon.

Alford's kind of shifty that way.

Alford's a subpar coach

That, too. Gawd, I was hoping Indiana would offer him the job.

44TheLogo
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:21 pm Post subject:

2017 mcdonald's all star game going right now lots of 2018 prospects in action, and if we lose our 2017 we are in line for one of these guys _________________ substance over style

MickMgl
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Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 1987

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:23 pm Post subject:

adkindo wrote:

MickMgl wrote:

Mike@LG wrote:

MickMgl wrote:

BigGameHames wrote:

Really? We got quite a few championships from the toughest shot maker in the game for awhile...

Got quite a few championships the other way, too.

we had the weakest shot maker in the game?

They won championships without relying on a tough shot maker, because the offense (and a specific player in particular) produced easier shots.

Raijin
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:31 pm Post subject:

MickMgl wrote:

Raijin wrote:

MickMgl wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

adkindo wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

allNet wrote:

From what I've seen teams attacked UCLA's zone and Ball with high screens, the other players had to shade over on zone to help Ball. Alford would often stick Ball in the corner afterwards.

You mean UCLA's bigs helped in the PnR?

UCLA was a poorly coached defensive team and generally has been under Steve Alford - it wasn't uncommon for defenders to over-help, miscommunicate, etc.

any truth to the claim that Alford only pulled out of Indiana job after Indiana informed him they were hiring someone else?

Alford's kind of shifty that way.

Alford's a subpar coach

That, too. Gawd, I was hoping Indiana would offer him the job.

Off topic my bad, but couldn't resist. As for the Indiana opening, you and me both.
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greenfrog
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:43 pm Post subject:

MickMgl wrote:

APG is overrated and often deceptive anyway. Advanced stats, soon to be more advanced with the new technology going into effect next season, are already chipping away at it. Ball's ability to start breaks that don't lead to any assist for himself was honestly the most impressive part of his game to me. I've never seen a player with such a disregard for getting his own numbers.

Last edited by greenfrog on Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

MickMgl
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:48 pm Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:

MickMgl wrote:

Mike@LG wrote:

MickMgl wrote:

BigGameHames wrote:

Really? We got quite a few championships from the toughest shot maker in the game for awhile...

Got quite a few championships the other way, too.

That those teams had post players like those two is a testament to how loaded they were. However, with all due respect to Kareem and Worthy, they were not the engines that ran that offense. As evidenced by how the team remained in contention even after Kareem was gone.

IMO, Magic's 12-13 apg each year, with complementary scoring, played a bigger role in the success of the offense - and specifically in keeping Kareem effective for as long as he was - than either of those players' individual post ability, although granted it would have been difficult to lose any of those elements.

BigGameHames
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:48 pm Post subject:

MickMgl wrote:

adkindo wrote:

Ball enables that pace with his push ability and ability to rebound & run. Alford didn't just suddenly decide to coach a faster pace.

Actually it was both. Watch next year, they will continue to play at a very fast pace.

dao
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:51 pm Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:

MickMgl wrote:

APG is overrated and often deceptive anyway. Advanced stats, soon to be more advanced with the new technology going into effect next season, are already chipping away at it. Ball's ability to start breaks that don't lead to any assist for himself was the honestly most impressive part of his game to me. I've never seen a player with such a disregard for getting his own numbers.

what technology breh

Baron Von Humongous
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:02 pm Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:

2017 mcdonald's all star game going right now

lots of 2018 prospects in action, and if we lose our 2017 we are in line for one of these guys

I was going to catch it later. Any standouts to you so far?

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