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| Who you got after Fultz? |
| Lonzo Ball |
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75% |
[ 315 ] |
| Josh Jackson |
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15% |
[ 64 ] |
| Jayson Tatum |
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1% |
[ 8 ] |
| De'Aaron Fox |
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4% |
[ 20 ] |
| Malik Monk |
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1% |
[ 5 ] |
| Jonathan Isaac |
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0% |
[ 4 ] |
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| Total Votes : 416 |
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44TheLogo
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 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:58 am Post subject: |
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comparing simmons to fultz is actually completely incoherent. criticism with simmons came from obvious weaknesses regarding his shooting and his competitive drive (though the latter is silly considering how little he cared about college basketball before college basketball even began).
fultz has been the starting PG for team USA at every level, and has won multiple gold medals with that team in that role, so he's shown the ability to be great when he has good talent around him. then you look at his game and i ask, what in his game is clearly not at an NBA level? he has the body, the athleticism, the ball handling, the court vision, the shooting, the passing, the defense...this kid has it all. ball is a great prospect, sure, but he requires the right fit around him more than fultz does. fultz is a plug and play star in any scenario. and that was a similar situation with the critique of simmons - he needs the right fit around him more than ingram does. |
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Vesper
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| If we get Fultz this summer, we should trade 2 guards and keep a three guard rotation instead. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| justsomelakerfan wrote: | | Man I FINALLY felt good about Ingram then come here and Mike has him rated lower than a lot of the prospects through the projected top 6 this season. I'm intentionally not studying the lotto picks to protect my sanity in May and June, so I don't really have any input other than feeling sad. Do a lot of people have Ingram rated below the lotto forwards this draft? |
Why feel bad? Ingram is the youngest of all of the guys, really close in age to Tatum, and we already see his development.
I'm going on the idea based on how their freshman seasons are/were. Last year's draft was weak at the top with depth to the mid 2nd round.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| dcarter4kobe wrote: | | That is pretty weird that Mike would have Ingram rated so low behind guys in this draft when a lot of NBA people would have picked Ingram 1st over Simmons last season. |
There's a HUGE gap in talent between Simmons and Ingram.
In this draft, the gap isn't as large, despite the elite PG crop.
With Simmons, there was some polished NBA level skill, hence the #1 pick. With Ingram, there were the physical tools and a good foundation, along with strong evidence of improvement.
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justsomelakerfan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | justsomelakerfan wrote: | | Man I FINALLY felt good about Ingram then come here and Mike has him rated lower than a lot of the prospects through the projected top 6 this season. I'm intentionally not studying the lotto picks to protect my sanity in May and June, so I don't really have any input other than feeling sad. Do a lot of people have Ingram rated below the lotto forwards this draft? |
Why feel bad? Ingram is the youngest of all of the guys, really close in age to Tatum, and we already see his development.
I'm going on the idea based on how their freshman seasons are/were. Last year's draft was weak at the top with depth to the mid 2nd round. |
I might have misunderstood. If things break right for Ingram, do you think his ceiling is comparable with Tatum, Jackson, I'm even hearing Isaac sometimes? Or do they look a step ahead? I really don't know. I'm shutting out all of that right now.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | 1) You used those sources to support your argument that Washington is considerably worse than LSU, I disagree. |
That's fine. But then, you're disagreeing based on what reason? One team has recruited HS prospects, the other doesn't.
| Quote: |
3) I don't see a willingness to make the simple passes. It seems that he needs to always be the guy making the play whether it's for a shot or assist. I like a PG who will make a quick pass to keep the ball moving. Yes this is easier for Ball because he has better teammates. |
I disagree with that, based on, I don't see fancy passes, and I do see simple plays made all of the time. When he plays off-ball, the rest of the team doesn't continue to move the ball. They have trouble getting into certain positions on the floor, executing certain passing angles, etc. If anything, I think that's just another reflection of the quality of teammates.
| Quote: | | 4) Hobestly idk, but they don't beat good teams so something needs to change. LSU had multiple good wins last year. |
I don't know either. At least in another post, I explained how Simmons could have done things to try and get more wins.
| Quote: | | 5) I question his ability to play in a Spurs, Warriors heavy ball movement quick decision offense. That's what the Lakers aspire to be. |
Once again, I don't. I don't think he's as ball-dominant as you perceive him to be. There are quite a few possessions when he plays off ball, but his teammates don't create anything. Then the clock gets low, and he has to try and bail them out.
| Quote: | | 6) Great prospect but I think he will have to adjust his game to play in a modern NBA offense while Ball excels in it. I see him as an undersized 2 in those kind of offenses. In a heavy PnR offense he could be a great PG but those aren't my favorite systems. |
I don't see how an adjustment is required when his skill set is so diversified, he can fit anywhere. I think worst case, he's an undersized 2, but then he shows the shooting, defensive ability. So, like McCollum, better passing, less shot creation? That isn't exactly horrible.
Lonzo Ball? Yeah, Spurs, GSW, Lakers, I think he'd excel. Detroit? No. OKC? No. More traditional offenses? No. A lot of that has to do with his shot creation. That's also a very fair assessment.
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Dilla_
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:15 am Post subject: |
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Does many expect the Lakers to keep the pick this season?
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| justsomelakerfan wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | justsomelakerfan wrote: | | Man I FINALLY felt good about Ingram then come here and Mike has him rated lower than a lot of the prospects through the projected top 6 this season. I'm intentionally not studying the lotto picks to protect my sanity in May and June, so I don't really have any input other than feeling sad. Do a lot of people have Ingram rated below the lotto forwards this draft? |
Why feel bad? Ingram is the youngest of all of the guys, really close in age to Tatum, and we already see his development.
I'm going on the idea based on how their freshman seasons are/were. Last year's draft was weak at the top with depth to the mid 2nd round. |
I might have misunderstood. If things break right for Ingram, do you think his ceiling is comparable with Tatum, Jackson, I'm even hearing Isaac sometimes? Or do they look a step ahead? I really don't know. I'm shutting out all of that right now. |
You seem unusually worried. Don't be. I think VERY VERY VERY highly of Ingram. I'm just highly aware of Ingram's early freshman season, in contrast to Jackson and Tatum.
Keep in mind, Ingram is barely older than Tatum by a few months. Jackson is older. It's fair to expect that their games have more advancement for their freshman seasons.
All 3 guys have chances to be All-Star caliber types. They do have the talent. It's up to them when it comes to work ethic. At least I'm aware of Ingram's work ethic. Tatum? Jackson? Can't judge yet.
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adkindo
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | justsomelakerfan wrote: | | Man I FINALLY felt good about Ingram then come here and Mike has him rated lower than a lot of the prospects through the projected top 6 this season. I'm intentionally not studying the lotto picks to protect my sanity in May and June, so I don't really have any input other than feeling sad. Do a lot of people have Ingram rated below the lotto forwards this draft? |
Why feel bad? Ingram is the youngest of all of the guys, really close in age to Tatum, and we already see his development.
I'm going on the idea based on how their freshman seasons are/were. Last year's draft was weak at the top with depth to the mid 2nd round. |
If I said, "If Tatum and Ingram entered the draft at the same time, Tatum would be more ready on day one, but their "ceiling" is very similar. Do you agree that statement could be true? |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | 1) You used those sources to support your argument that Washington is considerably worse than LSU, I disagree. |
That's fine. But then, you're disagreeing based on what reason? One team has recruited HS prospects, the other doesn't.
| Quote: |
3) I don't see a willingness to make the simple passes. It seems that he needs to always be the guy making the play whether it's for a shot or assist. I like a PG who will make a quick pass to keep the ball moving. Yes this is easier for Ball because he has better teammates. |
I disagree with that, based on, I don't see fancy passes, and I do see simple plays made all of the time. When he plays off-ball, the rest of the team doesn't continue to move the ball. They have trouble getting into certain positions on the floor, executing certain passing angles, etc. If anything, I think that's just another reflection of the quality of teammates.
| Quote: | | 4) Hobestly idk, but they don't beat good teams so something needs to change. LSU had multiple good wins last year. |
I don't know either. At least in another post, I explained how Simmons could have done things to try and get more wins.
| Quote: | | 5) I question his ability to play in a Spurs, Warriors heavy ball movement quick decision offense. That's what the Lakers aspire to be. |
Once again, I don't. I don't think he's as ball-dominant as you perceive him to be. There are quite a few possessions when he plays off ball, but his teammates don't create anything. Then the clock gets low, and he has to try and bail them out.
| Quote: | | 6) Great prospect but I think he will have to adjust his game to play in a modern NBA offense while Ball excels in it. I see him as an undersized 2 in those kind of offenses. In a heavy PnR offense he could be a great PG but those aren't my favorite systems. |
I don't see how an adjustment is required when his skill set is so diversified, he can fit anywhere. I think worst case, he's an undersized 2, but then he shows the shooting, defensive ability. So, like McCollum, better passing, less shot creation? That isn't exactly horrible.
Lonzo Ball? Yeah, Spurs, GSW, Lakers, I think he'd excel. Detroit? No. OKC? No. More traditional offenses? No. A lot of that has to do with his shot creation. That's also a very fair assessment. |
Look I'm not arguing that Ball is a far and away better prospect, I'm just saying Fultz isn't either. Maybe he isn't as ball dominant as I've seen, we will find out but that is the issue I have along with the fact that his team doesn't win games(or even compete with good teams). I think they are easily the top 2 prospects(haven't seen enough of Tatum yet, not a huge Josh Jackson fan).
I know Lonzo is a guy who needs to fit the system but the type of system he excels in, is the type of system I like from NBA teams and I question Fultz ability to play PG in those systems. A better version of CJ McColum isn't far off from what I expect from him, but I think Lonzo could be better than that. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | justsomelakerfan wrote: | | Man I FINALLY felt good about Ingram then come here and Mike has him rated lower than a lot of the prospects through the projected top 6 this season. I'm intentionally not studying the lotto picks to protect my sanity in May and June, so I don't really have any input other than feeling sad. Do a lot of people have Ingram rated below the lotto forwards this draft? |
Why feel bad? Ingram is the youngest of all of the guys, really close in age to Tatum, and we already see his development.
I'm going on the idea based on how their freshman seasons are/were. Last year's draft was weak at the top with depth to the mid 2nd round. |
If I said, "If Tatum and Ingram entered the draft at the same time, Tatum would be more ready on day one, but their "ceiling" is very similar. Do you agree that statement could be true? |
Yup.
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| 44TheLogo wrote: | comparing simmons to fultz is actually completely incoherent. criticism with simmons came from obvious weaknesses regarding his shooting and his competitive drive (though the latter is silly considering how little he cared about college basketball before college basketball even began).
fultz has been the starting PG for team USA at every level, and has won multiple gold medals with that team in that role, so he's shown the ability to be great when he has good talent around him. then you look at his game and i ask, what in his game is clearly not at an NBA level? he has the body, the athleticism, the ball handling, the court vision, the shooting, the passing, the defense...this kid has it all. ball is a great prospect, sure, but he requires the right fit around him more than fultz does. fultz is a plug and play star in any scenario. and that was a similar situation with the critique of simmons - he needs the right fit around him more than ingram does. |
These are the posts that I disagree with and why I say there is a double standard. Some see Fultz as the unquestionable #1 overall pick and is head and shoulders above everybody else despite the fact that he can't win games against good teams. Meanwhile, Ball has transformed UCLA from last year and wins basically every time he's in a game but that's "because he has better teammates". No I don't buy that. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm just saying Fultz isn't either. |
I keep watching Fultz and keep thinking, "Where's the hole in his game?"
He's a very good, not elite athlete. Maybe if he was taller he'd be a more deadly SG.
But in terms of skill set? I'm really struggling. That doesn't mean I think he's LeBron James II, but when it's this difficult to find holes, I can't help but think, there's some legitimacy to his evaluations, which I don't think are total hype.
The only thing that'd make me say, "We need to trade anyone to get Fultz" is if he starts shooting 56% or higher from the field from 2pt range.
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justsomelakerfan
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Joined: 16 Jul 2016
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | justsomelakerfan wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | justsomelakerfan wrote: | | Man I FINALLY felt good about Ingram then come here and Mike has him rated lower than a lot of the prospects through the projected top 6 this season. I'm intentionally not studying the lotto picks to protect my sanity in May and June, so I don't really have any input other than feeling sad. Do a lot of people have Ingram rated below the lotto forwards this draft? |
Why feel bad? Ingram is the youngest of all of the guys, really close in age to Tatum, and we already see his development.
I'm going on the idea based on how their freshman seasons are/were. Last year's draft was weak at the top with depth to the mid 2nd round. |
I might have misunderstood. If things break right for Ingram, do you think his ceiling is comparable with Tatum, Jackson, I'm even hearing Isaac sometimes? Or do they look a step ahead? I really don't know. I'm shutting out all of that right now. |
You seem unusually worried. Don't be. I think VERY VERY VERY highly of Ingram. I'm just highly aware of Ingram's early freshman season, in contrast to Jackson and Tatum.
Keep in mind, Ingram is barely older than Tatum by a few months. Jackson is older. It's fair to expect that their games have more advancement for their freshman seasons.
All 3 guys have chances to be All-Star caliber types. They do have the talent. It's up to them when it comes to work ethic. At least I'm aware of Ingram's work ethic. Tatum? Jackson? Can't judge yet. |
It's insane to think that Jackson is older than Ingram. Good perspective. Ingram kind of being really really bad to start the season, not even showing shooting ability, had me really concerned about him considering he was touted as being a good shooter and two way player. I know he would be a project but I didn't think he was that far behind. I wasn't sold on him.
Watching him late December through now, he's put together performances that really impressed me. It's really important for the Lakers that he becomes a very good player.
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44TheLogo
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | 44TheLogo wrote: | comparing simmons to fultz is actually completely incoherent. criticism with simmons came from obvious weaknesses regarding his shooting and his competitive drive (though the latter is silly considering how little he cared about college basketball before college basketball even began).
fultz has been the starting PG for team USA at every level, and has won multiple gold medals with that team in that role, so he's shown the ability to be great when he has good talent around him. then you look at his game and i ask, what in his game is clearly not at an NBA level? he has the body, the athleticism, the ball handling, the court vision, the shooting, the passing, the defense...this kid has it all. ball is a great prospect, sure, but he requires the right fit around him more than fultz does. fultz is a plug and play star in any scenario. and that was a similar situation with the critique of simmons - he needs the right fit around him more than ingram does. |
These are the posts that I disagree with and why I say there is a double standard. Some see Fultz as the unquestionable #1 overall pick and is head and shoulders above everybody else despite the fact that he can't win games against good teams. Meanwhile, Ball has transformed UCLA from last year and wins basically every time he's in a game but that's "because he has better teammates". No I don't buy that. |
what's the double standard? |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | I'm just saying Fultz isn't either. |
I keep watching Fultz and keep thinking, "Where's the hole in his game?"
He's a very good, not elite athlete. Maybe if he was taller he'd be a more deadly SG.
But in terms of skill set? I'm really struggling. That doesn't mean I think he's LeBron James II, but when it's this difficult to find holes, I can't help but think, there's some legitimacy to his evaluations, which I don't think are total hype.
The only thing that'd make me say, "We need to trade anyone to get Fultz" is if he starts shooting 56% or higher from the field from 2pt range. |
He doesn't win. That concerns me. |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| 44TheLogo wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | 44TheLogo wrote: | comparing simmons to fultz is actually completely incoherent. criticism with simmons came from obvious weaknesses regarding his shooting and his competitive drive (though the latter is silly considering how little he cared about college basketball before college basketball even began).
fultz has been the starting PG for team USA at every level, and has won multiple gold medals with that team in that role, so he's shown the ability to be great when he has good talent around him. then you look at his game and i ask, what in his game is clearly not at an NBA level? he has the body, the athleticism, the ball handling, the court vision, the shooting, the passing, the defense...this kid has it all. ball is a great prospect, sure, but he requires the right fit around him more than fultz does. fultz is a plug and play star in any scenario. and that was a similar situation with the critique of simmons - he needs the right fit around him more than ingram does. |
These are the posts that I disagree with and why I say there is a double standard. Some see Fultz as the unquestionable #1 overall pick and is head and shoulders above everybody else despite the fact that he can't win games against good teams. Meanwhile, Ball has transformed UCLA from last year and wins basically every time he's in a game but that's "because he has better teammates". No I don't buy that. |
what's the double standard? |
Fultz loses because of his teammates, Ball wins because of his teammates. |
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44TheLogo
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009
Posts: 6364
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | 44TheLogo wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | 44TheLogo wrote: | comparing simmons to fultz is actually completely incoherent. criticism with simmons came from obvious weaknesses regarding his shooting and his competitive drive (though the latter is silly considering how little he cared about college basketball before college basketball even began).
fultz has been the starting PG for team USA at every level, and has won multiple gold medals with that team in that role, so he's shown the ability to be great when he has good talent around him. then you look at his game and i ask, what in his game is clearly not at an NBA level? he has the body, the athleticism, the ball handling, the court vision, the shooting, the passing, the defense...this kid has it all. ball is a great prospect, sure, but he requires the right fit around him more than fultz does. fultz is a plug and play star in any scenario. and that was a similar situation with the critique of simmons - he needs the right fit around him more than ingram does. |
These are the posts that I disagree with and why I say there is a double standard. Some see Fultz as the unquestionable #1 overall pick and is head and shoulders above everybody else despite the fact that he can't win games against good teams. Meanwhile, Ball has transformed UCLA from last year and wins basically every time he's in a game but that's "because he has better teammates". No I don't buy that. |
what's the double standard? |
Fultz loses because of his teammates, Ball wins because of his teammates. |
I didn't say anything about fultz losing because of his teammates or ball winning because of his teammates in my post though? |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| 44TheLogo wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | 44TheLogo wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | 44TheLogo wrote: | comparing simmons to fultz is actually completely incoherent. criticism with simmons came from obvious weaknesses regarding his shooting and his competitive drive (though the latter is silly considering how little he cared about college basketball before college basketball even began).
fultz has been the starting PG for team USA at every level, and has won multiple gold medals with that team in that role, so he's shown the ability to be great when he has good talent around him. then you look at his game and i ask, what in his game is clearly not at an NBA level? he has the body, the athleticism, the ball handling, the court vision, the shooting, the passing, the defense...this kid has it all. ball is a great prospect, sure, but he requires the right fit around him more than fultz does. fultz is a plug and play star in any scenario. and that was a similar situation with the critique of simmons - he needs the right fit around him more than ingram does. |
These are the posts that I disagree with and why I say there is a double standard. Some see Fultz as the unquestionable #1 overall pick and is head and shoulders above everybody else despite the fact that he can't win games against good teams. Meanwhile, Ball has transformed UCLA from last year and wins basically every time he's in a game but that's "because he has better teammates". No I don't buy that. |
what's the double standard? |
Fultz loses because of his teammates, Ball wins because of his teammates. |
I didn't say anything about fultz losing because of his teammates or ball winning because of his teammates in my post though? |
You say he's by far the best prospect but his team is only 8-9 and doesn't have a quality win on the season. Ball has lost one game on a buzzer beater on the road. I feel like the only logical conclusion is you think Fultz only loses because of his teammates and Ball wins because his team is stacked. Is that not the case? I'm sorry if I put words in your mouth but I figured that was your reasoning.
Do you think UCLA would be better if you swap Lonzo and Fultz? Because I certainly don't. |
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Vesper
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe not.
However, washington last season had Chriss (lottery pick fresh) and Murray (first rounder to SAS) the team went 19-15 and 9-9 in the conference. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Do you think UCLA would be better if you swap Lonzo and Fultz? Because I certainly don't. |
And I certainly don't think Washington even wins 8 games with Lonzo Ball.
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iimarshon
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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So if somehow we got Fultz and kept everyone together then Fultz and DLO would just be the backcourt as a duo of combo guards yeah?
I actually prefer DLO off ball anyways
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KeepItRealOrElse
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| iimarshon wrote: | So if somehow we got Fultz and kept everyone together then Fultz and DLO would just be the backcourt as a duo of combo guards yeah?
I actually prefer DLO off ball anyways |
no doubt. They're both so long, I think it'd work well - but I'm optimistic that Dlo can guard SGs. He's as tall as Bradley Beal and a good deal longer
One of the most tantalizing additions to me would be another transition dynamo - DLo, Ingram, Randle - all have great potential in transition. Add another player who's good there, especially a passer - and our team attacks from all angles and the ball's moving everywhere. |
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dcarter4kobe
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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Fultz with 37-5-8 tonight.
1. Fultz
2. Everyone else
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| dcarter4kobe wrote: | Fultz with 37-5-8 tonight.
1. Fultz
2. Everyone else |
Multiple defensive plays, dropped to level of basketball, a few swats near the rim, set up teammates well, played on/off ball about 60/40, responsible for roughly 55 total team points.
What more can you ask of the kid? Just FT%. Stellar game.
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