2017 Lakers Draft Discussion Thread ** DRAFT DAY** (2: Ball, 27: Kuzma, 30: Hart and 42: Bryant )
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 304, 305, 306 ... 1279, 1280, 1281  Next

 
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> LA Lakers Lounge Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  

Who you got after Fultz?
Lonzo Ball
75%
 75%  [ 315 ]
Josh Jackson
15%
 15%  [ 64 ]
Jayson Tatum
1%
 1%  [ 8 ]
De'Aaron Fox
4%
 4%  [ 20 ]
Malik Monk
1%
 1%  [ 5 ]
Jonathan Isaac
0%
 0%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 416

Author Message
dao
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 02 Jan 2013
Posts: 4296

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:12 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

I disagree but understand that POV. I think the type of player Lonzo is, is more valuable than Fultz in the system that Luke seems to be trying to implement.


I disagree with that, considering how many times Curry creates his own shots without even passing the ball at times, just to maintain pace.

I'd even argue that shot versatility is a requirement for the system that Luke wants to implement.

If it was a Laker player thing, I can only imagine Lonzo in a Nick Young role, shooting 3s and attacking closeouts, while Fultz would take Clarkson's shots, with more efficiency and better passing.
this dismisses his greatest strengths: passing, BBall IQ, and floor orchestry. I agree though that Lonzo could mimic Nick Young in terms of half court scoring...which is not his greatest strength.

Last edited by dao on Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Golden_Emperor_24K
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Posts: 3322

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:12 pm    Post subject:

would any team with a top 10 pick be interested in trading for Randle?

I'd be awesome if we land both Jjackson and Johnathan Isaac

Dlo
JJ
Ingram
Isaac
Zubac

JC, Nance off the bench.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
dao
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 02 Jan 2013
Posts: 4296

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:27 pm    Post subject:

LakerLanny wrote:
dao wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
dao wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
I've got a lot of questions still about his handles and getting off his shot at the NBA level.


Same. The handlful of midrange shots isn't going to change my mind either. After watching EXTENSIVE footage of Lonzo Ball, I've learned two things.

1. His best passing is from a standstill position. That's resoundingly positive or negative depending on how you look at it.

2. His best scoring skill isn't attacking the basket, PnR, midrange game, using pivots, post play, floaters. It's a step back 3-point shot.
but at the end of the day, despite all of these scoring deficiencies, his TS% is 67.9%....! He is a shockingly efficient scorer, albeit with a modest volume of shots compared to a scoring guard like Fultz. I don't see how this sort of freakish efficiency could be possible if he could only do one thing well in terms of scoring. The step back three is his best shot, but fewer than half of his points come from three point baskets. He shoots a...jesus..ridiculous 73.1% on two point baskets...smh wow. His efficiency is otherworldly.

Now, is he being extremely selective by only taking extremely efficient shots, particularly on the fast break? Sure. But I ask, isn't that a good thing for a pass first player? Especially when he still manages to score 15 ppg?

Now as far as his passing goes, when you say that his best passing is from a stand-still position, are you saying he's not a well rounded passer? That he can't pass on the move very well? Please explain. I imagine screen and roll passing is included in this, but don't know what other types of passes you're talking about. I haven't studied his game in great detail, I've only seen a few vids, scouting reports, and his stats....which jump off the page, to say the very least.


To me, TS% is A LOT more believable for a dynamic player when they consistently create their own shots and it's with high volume.

His shot volume to me, is like a role player's shot volume. 53.2% of his shots are assisted at the rim. 35.7% of his 4.7 2-point field goal attempts are at the rim.

Basically, he takes 1.67 shots at the rim, per game. That's it. That's like, Nick Young level. Even then, one of those shots at the rim, is assisted by someone else's playmaking.

Contrast to Fultz, 61.6%FG at the rim, but only 17.4% of those shots at the rim, are actually assisted. 25.5% of his 12.5 2-point shots are at the rim.

Fultz takes 3.18 shots at the rim. Over 80% of the time, it's his own shot creation.

That's a FAR more translatable statistic across the board. It tells me that not only is he creating his own shots, but it's high volume AND he's still has NBA level efficiency at the rim.

Imagine if Fultz had 50% of his shots assisted at the rim. You don't think his FG% at the rim would skyrocket?

Quote:
are you saying he's not a well rounded passer? That he can't pass on the move very well?


Most of the time, it happens 2 different ways, the long-court transition pass, or moving the ball around within the halfcourt set, and just finding the open man. It's very high frequency.

But when you see him "drive and kick", that happens maybe, 2-3x per game, and no, I don't really count him driving across the free throw line to pass to a teammate a "drive and kick." It doesn't always draw the attention of the defense, and it's also a reflection why, even in limited volume, that he's not more effective with pocket passes out of PnR and more dynamic situations off-the-dribble.

You don't even have to watch a full game. Just count the number of assists that go to shooters.

Contrast to Fultz. Half his passes are drive and kick for assists.

All of this still boils down to my question marks with him as point of attack. Ball would find DLO in the corner with the next pass. Fultz, would draw in the defense off penetration and dish out. It all depends on what you like out of your PG.

I prefer the latter, because the numbers reflect him more as a scoring threat in the paint and a far more creative shot creator as an Iso player.
I definitely see your point. Ultimately it comes down to Fultz as a guy with iso-gravity vs Ball as the quintessential, super-elite cog/glue guy/role player. But man, the latter is unique. There are plenty of guys like Fultz in today's NBA. Hell, we have one of them on our roster already! For curiosity's sake I hope we get the second pick and not the first, though I agree that Fultz is the more logical #1 overall.

The greatness of a team isn't simply the sum of its individual parts. Deep down in my gut I honestly think the team would perform better with Ball than Fultz. I think he's a better fit, which is of course a dirty word when talking about high draft picks.


The kid from Wichita State at PG, Landry Shamet is almost a Lonzo Ball-lite.

He isn't as good as ball, but he does some similar things and can certainly play.
haven't seen him play, but the stats don't look too hot.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
dcarter4kobe
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 15265

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:06 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
dao wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
I've got a lot of questions still about his handles and getting off his shot at the NBA level.


Same. The handlful of midrange shots isn't going to change my mind either. After watching EXTENSIVE footage of Lonzo Ball, I've learned two things.

1. His best passing is from a standstill position. That's resoundingly positive or negative depending on how you look at it.

2. His best scoring skill isn't attacking the basket, PnR, midrange game, using pivots, post play, floaters. It's a step back 3-point shot.
but at the end of the day, despite all of these scoring deficiencies, his TS% is 67.9%....! He is a shockingly efficient scorer, albeit with a modest volume of shots compared to a scoring guard like Fultz. I don't see how this sort of freakish efficiency could be possible if he could only do one thing well in terms of scoring. The step back three is his best shot, but fewer than half of his points come from three point baskets. He shoots a...jesus..ridiculous 73.1% on two point baskets...smh wow. His efficiency is otherworldly.

Now, is he being extremely selective by only taking extremely efficient shots, particularly on the fast break? Sure. But I ask, isn't that a good thing for a pass first player? Especially when he still manages to score 15 ppg?

Now as far as his passing goes, when you say that his best passing is from a stand-still position, are you saying he's not a well rounded passer? That he can't pass on the move very well? Please explain. I imagine screen and roll passing is included in this, but don't know what other types of passes you're talking about. I haven't studied his game in great detail, I've only seen a few vids, scouting reports, and his stats....which jump off the page, to say the very least.


To me, TS% is A LOT more believable for a dynamic player when they consistently create their own shots and it's with high volume.

His shot volume to me, is like a role player's shot volume. 53.2% of his shots are assisted at the rim. 35.7% of his 4.7 2-point field goal attempts are at the rim.

Basically, he takes 1.67 shots at the rim, per game. That's it. That's like, Nick Young level. Even then, one of those shots at the rim, is assisted by someone else's playmaking.

Contrast to Fultz, 61.6%FG at the rim, but only 17.4% of those shots at the rim, are actually assisted. 25.5% of his 12.5 2-point shots are at the rim.

Fultz takes 3.18 shots at the rim. Over 80% of the time, it's his own shot creation.

That's a FAR more translatable statistic across the board. It tells me that not only is he creating his own shots, but it's high volume AND he's still has NBA level efficiency at the rim.

Imagine if Fultz had 50% of his shots assisted at the rim. You don't think his FG% at the rim would skyrocket?

Just for a point of emphasis.
Fultz 17.4% assisted at the rim, 12.5% assisted 2-point, 55.8% assisted 3-point.

Lonzo Ball 53.2% assisted at the rim, 8.3% assisted 2-point, 73.2% assisted 3-point.

Ball movement/teammates really help Lonzo Ball's shooting %.

Quote:
are you saying he's not a well rounded passer? That he can't pass on the move very well?


Most of the time, it happens 2 different ways, the long-court transition pass, or moving the ball around within the halfcourt set, and just finding the open man. It's very high frequency.

But when you see him "drive and kick", that happens maybe, 2-3x per game, and no, I don't really count him driving across the free throw line to pass to a teammate a "drive and kick." It doesn't always draw the attention of the defense, and it's also a reflection why, even in limited volume, that he's not more effective with pocket passes out of PnR and more dynamic situations off-the-dribble.

You don't even have to watch a full game. Just count the number of assists that go to shooters.

Contrast to Fultz. Half his passes are drive and kick for assists.

All of this still boils down to my question marks with him as point of attack. Ball would find DLO in the corner with the next pass. Fultz, would draw in the defense off penetration and dish out. It all depends on what you like out of your PG.

I prefer the latter, because the numbers reflect him more as a scoring threat in the paint and a far more creative shot creator as an Iso player.


Exactly what I have been saying about Ball's passing.
_________________
"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Baron Von Humongous
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 6045

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:18 pm    Post subject:

Another all-in-one draft prospect rating, this one from Steve Shea, the unfortunately named CPR (college prospect rating):
Quote:
The 2017 class is loaded with talent on the perimeter. There’s no Durant, Paul or Steph, but Malik Monk, Markelle Fultz, Lonzo Ball, and Dennis Smith all project to be All-Star caliber NBA guards. (These scores are also included in the table at the end of the article.)

Forwards Jayson Tatum and Josh Jackson both rated well and should be in consideration for top 5 picks.

The most interesting rating belongs to Caleb Swanigan, the sophomore from Purdue. Swanigan scored a 13 in CPR thanks to some other-worldly rebounding and shooting 45% from 3. He stands about 6’8 with a 7’3 wingspan which suggests power forward. However, he’s not an agile defender and could struggle to guard smaller 4s. The NBA is trending smaller at the PF, which means Caleb should prepare himself to play a fair amount of center.


The article describes his methodology and contains a table of top draft picks since 2011 (and including the top-rated 2017 prospects) ranked according to their CPR scores. By this ranking, Monk has true superstar potential with Fultz and Ball close behind: Link.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Baron Von Humongous
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 6045

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:35 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
dao wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
I've got a lot of questions still about his handles and getting off his shot at the NBA level.


Same. The handlful of midrange shots isn't going to change my mind either. After watching EXTENSIVE footage of Lonzo Ball, I've learned two things.

1. His best passing is from a standstill position. That's resoundingly positive or negative depending on how you look at it.

2. His best scoring skill isn't attacking the basket, PnR, midrange game, using pivots, post play, floaters. It's a step back 3-point shot.
but at the end of the day, despite all of these scoring deficiencies, his TS% is 67.9%....! He is a shockingly efficient scorer, albeit with a modest volume of shots compared to a scoring guard like Fultz. I don't see how this sort of freakish efficiency could be possible if he could only do one thing well in terms of scoring. The step back three is his best shot, but fewer than half of his points come from three point baskets. He shoots a...jesus..ridiculous 73.1% on two point baskets...smh wow. His efficiency is otherworldly.

Now, is he being extremely selective by only taking extremely efficient shots, particularly on the fast break? Sure. But I ask, isn't that a good thing for a pass first player? Especially when he still manages to score 15 ppg?

Now as far as his passing goes, when you say that his best passing is from a stand-still position, are you saying he's not a well rounded passer? That he can't pass on the move very well? Please explain. I imagine screen and roll passing is included in this, but don't know what other types of passes you're talking about. I haven't studied his game in great detail, I've only seen a few vids, scouting reports, and his stats....which jump off the page, to say the very least.


To me, TS% is A LOT more believable for a dynamic player when they consistently create their own shots and it's with high volume.

His shot volume to me, is like a role player's shot volume. 53.2% of his shots are assisted at the rim. 35.7% of his 4.7 2-point field goal attempts are at the rim.

Basically, he takes 1.67 shots at the rim, per game. That's it. That's like, Nick Young level. Even then, one of those shots at the rim, is assisted by someone else's playmaking.

Contrast to Fultz, 61.6%FG at the rim, but only 17.4% of those shots at the rim, are actually assisted. 25.5% of his 12.5 2-point shots are at the rim.

Fultz takes 3.18 shots at the rim. Over 80% of the time, it's his own shot creation.

That's a FAR more translatable statistic across the board. It tells me that not only is he creating his own shots, but it's high volume AND he's still has NBA level efficiency at the rim.

Imagine if Fultz had 50% of his shots assisted at the rim. You don't think his FG% at the rim would skyrocket?

Just for a point of emphasis.
Fultz 17.4% assisted at the rim, 12.5% assisted 2-point, 55.8% assisted 3-point.

Lonzo Ball 53.2% assisted at the rim, 8.3% assisted 2-point, 73.2% assisted 3-point.

Ball movement/teammates really help Lonzo Ball's shooting %.

Quote:
are you saying he's not a well rounded passer? That he can't pass on the move very well?


Most of the time, it happens 2 different ways, the long-court transition pass, or moving the ball around within the halfcourt set, and just finding the open man. It's very high frequency.

But when you see him "drive and kick", that happens maybe, 2-3x per game, and no, I don't really count him driving across the free throw line to pass to a teammate a "drive and kick." It doesn't always draw the attention of the defense, and it's also a reflection why, even in limited volume, that he's not more effective with pocket passes out of PnR and more dynamic situations off-the-dribble.

You don't even have to watch a full game. Just count the number of assists that go to shooters.

Contrast to Fultz. Half his passes are drive and kick for assists.

All of this still boils down to my question marks with him as point of attack. Ball would find DLO in the corner with the next pass. Fultz, would draw in the defense off penetration and dish out. It all depends on what you like out of your PG.

I prefer the latter, because the numbers reflect him more as a scoring threat in the paint and a far more creative shot creator as an Iso player.

Great. Now I have to go back and review which Lonzo Ball "drive and kicks" fit your specific criteria. Thanks, Mike@LG.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Mike@LG
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 55536
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:11 pm    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

I disagree but understand that POV. I think the type of player Lonzo is, is more valuable than Fultz in the system that Luke seems to be trying to implement.


I disagree with that, considering how many times Curry creates his own shots without even passing the ball at times, just to maintain pace.

I'd even argue that shot versatility is a requirement for the system that Luke wants to implement.

If it was a Laker player thing, I can only imagine Lonzo in a Nick Young role, shooting 3s and attacking closeouts, while Fultz would take Clarkson's shots, with more efficiency and better passing.


I just COMPLETELY disagree and think that's an inaccurate assessment of how he translates to the NBA. I've seen him do more than Young strictly off the ball. Then when you consider what he can do with the ball I don't think that is the role he'll play. I don't think there is a player on the roster who fills the role he will.


You can absolutely disagree. But within the Laker offense, and what he does best, that is what he is doing. Limited attacks at the rim, high volume 3pt. shooting, ... except Lonzo can do A LOT more than Nick Young when it comes to attacking close outs.

This is also exactly why I have issues with POA and individual shot creation.

How else would you explain the low USG rate by Lonzo?
_________________
Resident Car Nut.

Top 3 Pick: Fultz, Ball, Tatum
#28
TJ Leaf
Josh Hart
Bam Adebayo
Tony Bradley
Thomas Bryant
Derrick White
Semi Ojeleye
Jordan Bell

https://hoop-math.com/


Last edited by Mike@LG on Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Mike@LG
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 55536
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:15 pm    Post subject:

nash wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

I disagree but understand that POV. I think the type of player Lonzo is, is more valuable than Fultz in the system that Luke seems to be trying to implement.


I disagree with that, considering how many times Curry creates his own shots without even passing the ball at times, just to maintain pace.

I'd even argue that shot versatility is a requirement for the system that Luke wants to implement.

If it was a Laker player thing, I can only imagine Lonzo in a Nick Young role, hshooting 3s and attacking closeouts, while Fultz would take Clarkson's shots, with more efficiency and better passing.


I love Ball, really enjoy the way he is an efficient distributor and scorer with the usage of a role player, but Fultz has the superstar factor all over his game, you adapt a system to accommodate a player like him if he doesn't adapts to the system. Ball may be the most natural fit considering Dlo is a high usage player, but Fultz is just too good of a prospect to choose other player above him based on fit when you don't have a superstar able to create for himself


Like I said, it's a matter of preference. I think you can play DLO AND Fultz in the same roles as DLO and Clarkson played last night.

Everyone keeps saying "Ball is a natural fit," yet, I don't see PFs that shoot consistently/well behind the arc AND play off ball, I don't see consistent perimeter SF shooting, and I see poor guard decision-making when it's not DLO (It's Clarkson), where Holiday carries that responsibility.

"Ball is a natural fit...." to D'Angelo Russell and Zubac. I cannot say the same of the rest of the Laker roster that can't shoot.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.

Top 3 Pick: Fultz, Ball, Tatum
#28
TJ Leaf
Josh Hart
Bam Adebayo
Tony Bradley
Thomas Bryant
Derrick White
Semi Ojeleye
Jordan Bell

https://hoop-math.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Mike@LG
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 55536
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:17 pm    Post subject:

dao wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

I disagree but understand that POV. I think the type of player Lonzo is, is more valuable than Fultz in the system that Luke seems to be trying to implement.


I disagree with that, considering how many times Curry creates his own shots without even passing the ball at times, just to maintain pace.

I'd even argue that shot versatility is a requirement for the system that Luke wants to implement.

If it was a Laker player thing, I can only imagine Lonzo in a Nick Young role, shooting 3s and attacking closeouts, while Fultz would take Clarkson's shots, with more efficiency and better passing.
this dismisses his greatest strengths: passing, BBall IQ, and floor orchestry. I agree though that Lonzo could mimic Nick Young in terms of half court scoring...which is not his greatest strength.


Nick Young doesn't have court vision or willingness to pass. He's going to take that shot.

This is no different from running Lonzo off of a curl instead of settling for his 3-point shot, and then being forced into a drive/kick situation off the curl.

I mean, just look at the last game. How did Lonzo get his points? How many of those shots were behind the arc? How many of those were assisted or individual shot creation?

Like I said, I have Lonzo Ball #2, but he's #2 for a reason.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.

Top 3 Pick: Fultz, Ball, Tatum
#28
TJ Leaf
Josh Hart
Bam Adebayo
Tony Bradley
Thomas Bryant
Derrick White
Semi Ojeleye
Jordan Bell

https://hoop-math.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Mike@LG
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 55536
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:28 pm    Post subject:

Quote:

Exactly what I have been saying about Ball's passing


I mean, I think Randle gets quite a few "cheap assists" when he passes to shooters and then sets the screen.

Lonzo Ball gets quite a few assists just passing to shooters.

Neither guy is really drawing defensive gravity. They're just passing to open players.

Unfortunately, the Laker team isn't exactly stacked with great shooters/role playing shooters, so I just think to myself, how many times are opponents going to leave Zubac/Ingram/DLO open from the perimeter, as opposed to, how many times does someone need to draw defensive gravity to get them open shots?

Because, as amazing as DLOs 40point night was, I think he ran out of gas and got a lot more defensive attention at the end of the game. Who was there to relieve the pressure? No one.

So, who would be best at it? Ball? Possibly. He'll push in transition, get a few easier scores for the teammates. What about Fultz? He's not the stellar transition player, but when it's halfcourt, he can, absolutely relieve the pressure off of DLO in that case as a scorer/playmaker himself.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.

Top 3 Pick: Fultz, Ball, Tatum
#28
TJ Leaf
Josh Hart
Bam Adebayo
Tony Bradley
Thomas Bryant
Derrick White
Semi Ojeleye
Jordan Bell

https://hoop-math.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
LakerLogic
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 9736

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:36 pm    Post subject:

You guys are really underrating his impact on the offensive end. He is orchestrating the entire offense. UCLA is a completely different team with him off the floor. Those "simple passes" aren't made when he is off the floor. Go figure.

Critiquing him is the same way you could critique Magic. If you break down everything like a check box, he might not be as "complete" as some other players, but the overall package is something better than the sum of the parts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Mike@LG
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 55536
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:44 pm    Post subject:

LakerLogic wrote:
You guys are really underrating his impact on the offensive end. He is orchestrating the entire offense. UCLA is a completely different team with him off the floor. Those "simple passes" aren't made when he is off the floor. Go figure.

Critiquing him is the same way you could critique Magic. If you break down everything like a check box, he might not be as "complete" as some other players, but the overall package is something better than the sum of the parts.


Here's the difference.

Guys like Magic/Kidd, were able to attack down the middle of the defense and get to a FT line. They were drive/kick scoring threats in a halfcourt set and had high FTr to back it up.

Lonzo doesn't do that. He's not a high volume PnR guy. He's not a traditional drive/kick guy. He's a move the ball/relocate guy. Offensively, he opts for the 3pt. shot.

I think all 3 guys pass similarly, but there's a reason why Kidd was never the scorer that Magic was (but at least could attack the paint), and why I'm highly concerned that Lonzo can't attack the paint like Magic or Kidd.

Everyone wants to say "The team is greater than the sum of its parts." Great, if the parts all fit well together. The Lakers are drafted BPAs, most of whom cannot shoot well, consistently. So, I have a hard time with that argument.

Ball fits perfectly at UCLA. I can't say the same about the pieces of the Laker team when it comes to halfcourt execution.

Magic and Kidd needed a go-to-guy for championship success. Who is that for the Lakers?
_________________
Resident Car Nut.

Top 3 Pick: Fultz, Ball, Tatum
#28
TJ Leaf
Josh Hart
Bam Adebayo
Tony Bradley
Thomas Bryant
Derrick White
Semi Ojeleye
Jordan Bell

https://hoop-math.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
adkindo
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 11364
Location: Dirty South

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:45 pm    Post subject:

LakerLogic wrote:
You guys are really underrating his impact on the offensive end. He is orchestrating the entire offense. UCLA is a completely different team with him off the floor. Those "simple passes" aren't made when he is off the floor. Go figure.

Critiquing him is the same way you could critique Magic. If you break down everything like a check box, he might not be as "complete" as some other players, but the overall package is something better than the sum of the parts.


not sure I follow....what boxes did Magic not check?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
fiendishoc
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 7891

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:49 pm    Post subject:

LakerLogic wrote:
You guys are really underrating his impact on the offensive end. He is orchestrating the entire offense. UCLA is a completely different team with him off the floor. Those "simple passes" aren't made when he is off the floor. Go figure.

Critiquing him is the same way you could critique Magic. If you break down everything like a check box, he might not be as "complete" as some other players, but the overall package is something better than the sum of the parts.


I agree with both of you. While I think that many of the assists that he gets won't be there in the NBA, particularly with the short clock in the half court, you can't underestimate the way he controls the game and the way he's adapted from his high school style to the college level. UCLA's offensive flow grinds to a halt when he's off the floor (at least in the games I've seen), and part of that is because a lot of those simple passes are not easy to make with his timing and precision. That said, I still have a hard time envisioning him as the #1 guy on a contending team.
_________________
The Professional Scorer - Lou Williams

LFR - The Long Road Toward a Respectable Laker Defense
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
adkindo
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 11364
Location: Dirty South

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:54 pm    Post subject:

Personally, I do not see the similarities in Ball, Kidd and Magic....and none of that relates to if Ball will be as good as or even better than Kidd...I just dont think they play in a similar manner. It feels like every guard with some court vision and a high number of assists gets the lazy comparison to Kidd or Magic.....and I recall Kidd @ Cal got the Magic comparison himself. Its really not about who will be better or worse....I just see three very different players.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
nash
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 23 Oct 2001
Posts: 7857

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:13 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
nash wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

I disagree but understand that POV. I think the type of player Lonzo is, is more valuable than Fultz in the system that Luke seems to be trying to implement.


I disagree with that, considering how many times Curry creates his own shots without even passing the ball at times, just to maintain pace.

I'd even argue that shot versatility is a requirement for the system that Luke wants to implement.

If it was a Laker player thing, I can only imagine Lonzo in a Nick Young role, hshooting 3s and attacking closeouts, while Fultz would take Clarkson's shots, with more efficiency and better passing.


I love Ball, really enjoy the way he is an efficient distributor and scorer with the usage of a role player, but Fultz has the superstar factor all over his game, you adapt a system to accommodate a player like him if he doesn't adapts to the system. Ball may be the most natural fit considering Dlo is a high usage player, but Fultz is just too good of a prospect to choose other player above him based on fit when you don't have a superstar able to create for himself


Like I said, it's a matter of preference. I think you can play DLO AND Fultz in the same roles as DLO and Clarkson played last night.

Everyone keeps saying "Ball is a natural fit," yet, I don't see PFs that shoot consistently/well behind the arc AND play off ball, I don't see consistent perimeter SF shooting, and I see poor guard decision-making when it's not DLO (It's Clarkson), where Holiday carries that responsibility.

"Ball is a natural fit...." to D'Angelo Russell and Zubac. I cannot say the same of the rest of the Laker roster that can't shoot.


Let's go a bit further. Despite his very good raw numbers do you think Julius is a good fit with either our current core or one of the top PG from next class?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Baron Von Humongous
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 6045

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:23 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
LakerLogic wrote:
You guys are really underrating his impact on the offensive end. He is orchestrating the entire offense. UCLA is a completely different team with him off the floor. Those "simple passes" aren't made when he is off the floor. Go figure.

Critiquing him is the same way you could critique Magic. If you break down everything like a check box, he might not be as "complete" as some other players, but the overall package is something better than the sum of the parts.


Here's the difference.

Guys like Magic/Kidd, were able to attack down the middle of the defense and get to a FT line. They were drive/kick scoring threats in a halfcourt set and had high FTr to back it up.

Lonzo doesn't do that. He's not a high volume PnR guy. He's not a traditional drive/kick guy. He's a move the ball/relocate guy. Offensively, he opts for the 3pt. shot.

I think all 3 guys pass similarly, but there's a reason why Kidd was never the scorer that Magic was (but at least could attack the paint), and why I'm highly concerned that Lonzo can't attack the paint like Magic or Kidd.

Everyone wants to say "The team is greater than the sum of its parts." Great, if the parts all fit well together. The Lakers are drafted BPAs, most of whom cannot shoot well, consistently. So, I have a hard time with that argument.

Ball fits perfectly at UCLA. I can't say the same about the pieces of the Laker team when it comes to halfcourt execution.

Magic and Kidd needed a go-to-guy for championship success. Who is that for the Lakers?

Take Fultz off the table. This isn't a Fultz/Ball debate.

Which other player(s) in the 2017 draft do you think can/will produce +4/5 BPM per season during their peak? Because I don't give a (bleep) what that player looks like aesthetically, I want that player whether it's Damien Lillard or Andrei Kirilenko.

The rest of the roster can be thrown out to fit that player.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Slappy
Sixth Man
Sixth Man


Joined: 04 Jul 2015
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:28 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
dao wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

I disagree but understand that POV. I think the type of player Lonzo is, is more valuable than Fultz in the system that Luke seems to be trying to implement.


I disagree with that, considering how many times Curry creates his own shots without even passing the ball at times, just to maintain pace.

I'd even argue that shot versatility is a requirement for the system that Luke wants to implement.

If it was a Laker player thing, I can only imagine Lonzo in a Nick Young role, shooting 3s and attacking closeouts, while Fultz would take Clarkson's shots, with more efficiency and better passing.
this dismisses his greatest strengths: passing, BBall IQ, and floor orchestry. I agree though that Lonzo could mimic Nick Young in terms of half court scoring...which is not his greatest strength.


Nick Young doesn't have court vision or willingness to pass. He's going to take that shot.

This is no different from running Lonzo off of a curl instead of settling for his 3-point shot, and then being forced into a drive/kick situation off the curl.

I mean, just look at the last game. How did Lonzo get his points? How many of those shots were behind the arc? How many of those were assisted or individual shot creation?

Like I said, I have Lonzo Ball #2, but he's #2 for a reason.


Wait...you have some wild idea that Nick Young belongs in the same stream of thought as Lonzo Ball? To borrow the applicable phrase, with that your thought, there's simply no justification for anyone to have to meet your argument on either a moral or legal basis.

That said, for something you might consider, compare Wayne Gretzky to Pavel Bure. Neither of whom remotely resembles Nick Young (Who Is The Devil), but the former used others to create goals for himself while with the latter not so much. This is the other part where you loose all credibility, since you seem to simply not understand that you can use others to create goals/baskets for yourself.

Lastly, and by the way, the flip side of entirely blind argument is that with all the things that you say that Ball has at UCLA, well, then he doesn't need to impose his will quite so much, right? That doesn't mean that he can't, as he did that Sunday, but instead means that there's simply no need to. And on that note, I'll let you figure who is roll man should be. I would suggest that it not be either of Alford or Hamilton, so that's two starters, not Welsh, as he's simply too slow, and Leaf kinda blows like a leaf in the wind. But maybe if he had a young Amare, or even a Randle...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Baron Von Humongous
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 6045

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:31 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

Exactly what I have been saying about Ball's passing


I mean, I think Randle gets quite a few "cheap assists" when he passes to shooters and then sets the screen.

Lonzo Ball gets quite a few assists just passing to shooters.


Neither guy is really drawing defensive gravity. They're just passing to open players.

Unfortunately, the Laker team isn't exactly stacked with great shooters/role playing shooters, so I just think to myself, how many times are opponents going to leave Zubac/Ingram/DLO open from the perimeter, as opposed to, how many times does someone need to draw defensive gravity to get them open shots?

Because, as amazing as DLOs 40point night was, I think he ran out of gas and got a lot more defensive attention at the end of the game. Who was there to relieve the pressure? No one.

So, who would be best at it? Ball? Possibly. He'll push in transition, get a few easier scores for the teammates. What about Fultz? He's not the stellar transition player, but when it's halfcourt, he can, absolutely relieve the pressure off of DLO in that case as a scorer/playmaker himself.

Nikola Jokic is the king of "cheap assists" by your analysis.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
socalsp3
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 07 Jul 2016
Posts: 457

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:01 pm    Post subject:

As thorough of an analysis you all are making for/against ball, magic is taking ball if he has the chance. He's seen him in person enough times and he sees himself in Ball.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
greenfrog
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 02 Jan 2011
Posts: 28052
Location: Torrance

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:05 pm    Post subject:

Good grief, imagine now that we don't get either one of these two.

Nance, btw, would fit perfectly with Ball as a lob and transition target. His 16ft+ shot to my surprise has made progress too.
_________________
Smash-mouth basketball - Officially Dead (2014-2017)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
BynumForThree
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 27 Feb 2016
Posts: 474

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:06 pm    Post subject:

Ball is hard to compare to anyone. Kidd was a lot more versatile, actually took advantage of his size and was one of the best defenders ever. Not to mention Kidd was a more creative and dynamic passser.

I agree that Ball has a lot of question marks surrounding his game. I really question how he'll fit in a modern NBA offense, especially a lottery team where he has to take more of a responsibility. He'd be perfect in Boston lol
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
BynumForThree
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 27 Feb 2016
Posts: 474

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:08 pm    Post subject:

socalsp3 wrote:
As thorough of an analysis you all are making for/against ball, magic is taking ball if he has the chance. He's seen him in person enough times and he sees himself in Ball.

Link?

We can't say anything definitive. If we get the #1 pick then Magic will obviously workout Fultz and see that he checks every skill a PG prospect needs to become an offensive star. What if he ends up falling in love with Fultz's upside and drafts him?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Baron Von Humongous
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 6045

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:14 pm    Post subject:

BynumForThree wrote:
Ball is hard to compare to anyone. Kidd was a lot more versatile, actually took advantage of his size and was one of the best defenders ever. Not to mention Kidd was a more creative and dynamic passser.

I agree that Ball has a lot of question marks surrounding his game. I really question how he'll fit in a modern NBA offense, especially a lottery team where he has to take more of a responsibility. He'd be perfect in Boston lol

Link?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Mike Breen
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 31 Dec 2013
Posts: 632

PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:20 pm    Post subject:

If we don't retain the pick this year (how depressing would that be after 300+ pages of discussion), I look forward to drooling over Doncic and the bigs of next years draft with all of you
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> LA Lakers Lounge All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 304, 305, 306 ... 1279, 1280, 1281  Next
Page 305 of 1281
Jump to:  

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum






Graphics by uberzev
© 1995-2010 LakersGround.net. All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy. Terms of Use.
LakersGround is an unofficial news source serving the fan community since 1995.
We are in no way associated with the Los Angeles Lakers or the National Basketball Association.


Powered by phpBB