2017 Lakers Draft Discussion Thread ** DRAFT DAY** (2: Ball, 27: Kuzma, 30: Hart and 42: Bryant )
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Who you got after Fultz?
Lonzo Ball
75%
 75%  [ 315 ]
Josh Jackson
15%
 15%  [ 64 ]
Jayson Tatum
1%
 1%  [ 8 ]
De'Aaron Fox
4%
 4%  [ 20 ]
Malik Monk
1%
 1%  [ 5 ]
Jonathan Isaac
0%
 0%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 416

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greenfrog
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:02 pm    Post subject:

dao wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
In my opinion, Ball is a good bet to average considerably more than 5-6 apg, so the ppg is not really important as long as he's efficient and improves the overall efficiency of the team's offense as a whole.


APG is overrated and often deceptive anyway. Advanced stats, soon to be more advanced with the new technology going into effect next season, are already chipping away at it. Ball's ability to start breaks that don't lead to any assist for himself was honestly the most impressive part of his game to me. I've never seen a player with such a disregard for getting his own numbers.
what technology breh



Quote:
Second Spectrum will begin installing its player-tracking system in all NBA arenas over the course of the upcoming season so that it will be fully functional by the 2017-18 season, when the company becomes the Official Optical Tracking Provider of the NBA. Second Spectrum will provide advanced statistics, such as speed, distance, drives, paint touches and defensive impact, based on its unique technology for machine understanding of sports for comprehensive analysis of players and teams. Additionally, Second Spectrum will continue to work individually with teams and league partners on providing custom solutions and products based on player-tracking data.


http://pr.nba.com/nba-announces-multiyear-partnership-sportradar-second-spectrum/
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44TheLogo
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:08 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
2017 mcdonald's all star game going right now

lots of 2018 prospects in action, and if we lose our 2017 we are in line for one of these guys

I was going to catch it later. Any standouts to you so far?


ayton + bamba are a couple of big boys

jaylen hands is FAST, ucla is quite lucky to get a player of his caliber to follow lonzo

collin sexton is a highlight reel passer

lonnie walker looks skilled and athletic

michael porter jr. is looking pretty damn good
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:19 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
If Ball is efficient enough to produce a bunch of +4 OBPM seasons on 20% USG, I don't care if he never drives and kicks.


That's what makes him an enigma. I don't think anyone has ever seen that translate to the NBA level.

John Stockton was one of the few to ever do it, but he was more ball dominant and obviously became the PnR maestro (I wish we had more of an idea of how he looked as a teenager at Gonzaga for comparison). He also had an impressively high FTr, so he was generally either taking an efficient shot, generating an assist, or going to the FT line on most of his possessions - impressive stuff.

Ball is going to do it differently through more off-ball work and volume 3s, but he's in the same family as the rare hyper-efficient, low usage playmaker like Stockton, except Ball is 6'6. I'm intrigued to see how he works.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:21 pm    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
2017 mcdonald's all star game going right now

lots of 2018 prospects in action, and if we lose our 2017 we are in line for one of these guys

I was going to catch it later. Any standouts to you so far?


ayton + bamba are a couple of big boys

jaylen hands is FAST, ucla is quite lucky to get a player of his caliber to follow lonzo

collin sexton is a highlight reel passer

lonnie walker looks skilled and athletic

michael porter jr. is looking pretty damn good

Bamba has a 7'9.5 wingspan
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:23 pm    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
2017 mcdonald's all star game going right now

lots of 2018 prospects in action, and if we lose our 2017 we are in line for one of these guys

I was going to catch it later. Any standouts to you so far?


ayton + bamba are a couple of big boys

jaylen hands is FAST, ucla is quite lucky to get a player of his caliber to follow lonzo

collin sexton is a highlight reel passer

lonnie walker looks skilled and athletic

michael porter jr. is looking pretty damn good

Thanks! I think Hands could be a sneaky draft riser, but his shot and half-court decisionmaking have to be proven.

Sexton is going to be a better pro than Dennis Smith, Jr. I love that kid.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject:

2018 tank? I just can't.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:51 pm    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:

I understand the high usage tough shot maker argument but completely disagree with it. Those players aren't as valuable as guys who limit the amount of tough shots your team needs to take IMO. If that's the reason people want Fultz, I think they are putting value in the wrong skills.




Really? We got quite a few championships from the toughest shot maker in the game for awhile...

I mean, how else did Kyrie Irving get the championship over GSW? Making easy, uncontested shots?


Lebron.


Funny. Yet he still defers to Kyrie for the shot making.


Yes he did. He deferred to Wade at times as well. Doesn't make them close to as valuable as him. That's my point.


Are we comparing Lonzo to Lebron? I'm confused?
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:55 pm    Post subject:

Holy mother of Rudy Gobert Mo Bamba is long.
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adkindo
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:52 pm    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
2017 mcdonald's all star game going right now

lots of 2018 prospects in action, and if we lose our 2017 we are in line for one of these guys


hoping they replay on the app....saw a few highlights...those Collin Sexton passes
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adkindo
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:53 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Holy mother of Rudy Gobert Mo Bamba is long.


is that who stuffed Porter Jr.?
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KeepItRealOrElse
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:54 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
2017 mcdonald's all star game going right now

lots of 2018 prospects in action, and if we lose our 2017 we are in line for one of these guys


hoping they replay on the app....saw a few highlights...those Collin Sexton passes


hey by the way my man. We had that Hezonja discussion about his position, Vogel says he thinks his best spot may be at PF going forward
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:57 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Holy mother of Rudy Gobert Mo Bamba is long.


is that who stuffed Porter Jr.?


7'8"+ wingspan

9'7" standing reach
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:00 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
If Ball is efficient enough to produce a bunch of +4 OBPM seasons on 20% USG, I don't care if he never drives and kicks.


That's what makes him an enigma. I don't think anyone has ever seen that translate to the NBA level.

John Stockton was one of the few to ever do it, but he was more ball dominant and obviously became the PnR maestro (I wish we had more of an idea of how he looked as a teenager at Gonzaga for comparison). He also had an impressively high FTr, so he was generally either taking an efficient shot, generating an assist, or going to the FT line on most of his possessions - impressive stuff.

Ball is going to do it differently through more off-ball work and volume 3s, but he's in the same family as the rare hyper-efficient, low usage playmaker like Stockton, except Ball is 6'6. I'm intrigued to see how he works.


Yeah. What kills me about this whole thing is, prior PGs showed PnR efficiency.

At least in a recent interview, he admitted he knew he needed to work on his mid-range game. That'll help with PnR efficiency.

Personally, I'd rather have the guy with the high PnR rate and FTr that needed to develop a 3pt. shot. The signs of NBA success with that are everywhere.

The opposite? That, I've never seen.

At least Cranjis backs up the notion that Lonzo Ball had a "SG"-ish role with UCLA, and that tied with his usage rate and spot up rates. That may also tie in with low FTr.
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adkindo
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:03 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
adkindo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Holy mother of Rudy Gobert Mo Bamba is long.


is that who stuffed Porter Jr.?


7'8"+ wingspan

9'7" standing reach


nice...not quite Tacko territory

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b8/3f/2a/b83f2a9de2e197b578c8af0ec4ce282d.jpg
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:04 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
adkindo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Holy mother of Rudy Gobert Mo Bamba is long.


is that who stuffed Porter Jr.?


7'8"+ wingspan

9'7" standing reach


nice...not quite Tacko territory

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b8/3f/2a/b83f2a9de2e197b578c8af0ec4ce282d.jpg


I didn't get a chance to see the game, but something tells me, I don't have to worry about his strength or conditioning like I do with Tacko.
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adkindo
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:04 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
adkindo wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
2017 mcdonald's all star game going right now

lots of 2018 prospects in action, and if we lose our 2017 we are in line for one of these guys


hoping they replay on the app....saw a few highlights...those Collin Sexton passes


hey by the way my man. We had that Hezonja discussion about his position, Vogel says he thinks his best spot may be at PF going forward


you and I did? and you said you thought he was a PF?
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KeepItRealOrElse
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:07 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
adkindo wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
2017 mcdonald's all star game going right now

lots of 2018 prospects in action, and if we lose our 2017 we are in line for one of these guys


hoping they replay on the app....saw a few highlights...those Collin Sexton passes


hey by the way my man. We had that Hezonja discussion about his position, Vogel says he thinks his best spot may be at PF going forward


you and I did? and you said you thought he was a PF?


Think it was our convo. I said he's not a SG, said he's def a SF - which he's playing most of the time now
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adkindo
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:08 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
adkindo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Holy mother of Rudy Gobert Mo Bamba is long.


is that who stuffed Porter Jr.?


7'8"+ wingspan

9'7" standing reach


nice...not quite Tacko territory

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b8/3f/2a/b83f2a9de2e197b578c8af0ec4ce282d.jpg


I didn't get a chance to see the game, but something tells me, I don't have to worry about his strength or conditioning like I do with Tacko.


if goal tending was allowed, Fall would have to be the #1 pick.
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:09 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
adkindo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Holy mother of Rudy Gobert Mo Bamba is long.


is that who stuffed Porter Jr.?


7'8"+ wingspan

9'7" standing reach


nice...not quite Tacko territory

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b8/3f/2a/b83f2a9de2e197b578c8af0ec4ce282d.jpg


I didn't get a chance to see the game, but something tells me, I don't have to worry about his strength or conditioning like I do with Tacko.


if goal tending was allowed, Fall would have to be the #1 pick.


I do kind of wish international goal tending rules were allowed.
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adkindo
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:09 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
adkindo wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
adkindo wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
2017 mcdonald's all star game going right now

lots of 2018 prospects in action, and if we lose our 2017 we are in line for one of these guys


hoping they replay on the app....saw a few highlights...those Collin Sexton passes


hey by the way my man. We had that Hezonja discussion about his position, Vogel says he thinks his best spot may be at PF going forward


you and I did? and you said you thought he was a PF?


Think it was our convo. I said he's not a SG, said he's def a SF - which he's playing most of the time now


probably....I would probably take the SG side of the argument...is he playing better? have not kept up with him or Magic
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:20 pm    Post subject:

MickMgl wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:

I understand the high usage tough shot maker argument but completely disagree with it. Those players aren't as valuable as guys who limit the amount of tough shots your team needs to take IMO. If that's the reason people want Fultz, I think they are putting value in the wrong skills.




Really? We got quite a few championships from the toughest shot maker in the game for awhile...


Got quite a few championships the other way, too.


You mean with 55% career FG, Iso shot creators in Kareem and James Worthy?

So, even before Magic was on the team, Kareem shot 58% 2-point FG...

Pity I can't find James Worthy's Iso FG%, but he wasn't exactly getting 5 dunks a game, especially in the playoffs. He was still 55% to 60% as a 2nd/3rd option player with shot volume.


That those teams had post players like those two is a testament to how loaded they were. However, with all due respect to Kareem and Worthy, they were not the engines that ran that offense. As evidenced by how the team remained in contention even after Kareem was gone.

IMO, Magic's 12-13 apg each year, with complementary scoring, played a bigger role in the success of the offense - and specifically in keeping Kareem effective for as long as he was - than either of those players' individual post ability, although granted it would have been difficult to lose any of those elements.


Magic needed his offensive options. He wasn't LeBron in terms of scoring and passing combined. That was my point. He could take over at times, but I wouldn't necessarily call it "complementary scoring."

You're talking the greatest scoring player in NBA history, along with one of the best 20ppg FG% shooters in playoff history for most of Magic's career.

But at least, Magic understood what it meant to attack the basket and get to the FT line. He's still the only player I know, that would purposely do it just to end opponent scoring runs.

This is also why he's my #1 player of All time, and guys like Jason Kidd were 3/4 of his talent.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:35 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

“He’s more like Dwyane Wade,” a Pacific Division scout says. “Dwyane has developed into a facilitator. I think that’s kind of what Markelle is


That's EXACTLY why I want him. Not only do I think he's a VERY capable scorer, but it is exactly what the new wave NBA is. Playmaking guards, not pure PGs or SGs. I could easily argue that Curry plays like a playmaking SG, especially when Iguodala and Draymond run the offense, or even when he's playing alongside Livingston. James Harden already proved himself. Same with Devin Booker, who was basically forced into being a lead guard/playmaker/scorer.

We have one in DAR. Imagine two.
we can keep saying the wave of the new nba is scoring pg's that can playmake a bit. but the truth is. how many titles have curry one on his stacked roster? 1 so far. and couldn't pull of a back to back. Sure i know kyrie burned them. but that is also due to having your scoring guard being a smaller pg player that can handle the defensive end. this is the direction of a lot of nba teams. find me a short shooting guard with great scoring, decent passing and suspect defense. thats the nba today. most of these teams are not winning multiple rings in that fashion. they look good. they go to allstar games. they get into the playoffs and thats about it unless they have a superstar roster to boot(gstate).

Truth is. we can't keep denying what we all see with Lonzo Ball. You see it mike. You see that guy making his teammates better and getting ucla more wins. You saw it mike. I know you did because you know basketball. There are times the stats dont tell the entire story. Or at least an individuals stats. its fultz dwade with a jumper? could be. to me he looks like a short tracy mcgrady( a guy that could score anyway he wanted to). BUT, he aint 6'8+ like Tmac was. He's not 6'6 either. he's not even 6'5 like wade with the super long arms. he's 6'4 which usually means he's 6'3. now i know fultz is crazy athletic off the bounce. and his smooth as heck. but ball is athletic as well. and he's quick to be a 6'6 pg. not many times do you see a guy thats 6'6 playing pg that is as quick as he is.


and again. i need someone to explain to me if fultz is as good as some of you think. how is it that non of that superior skill got the huskies to .500 ball? how do you have your 4th worse season of All time with that caliber of player on the team? it's not like he played for a d-2 school playing vs d-1's. I'm not asking for a lone wolf to drag his team into the tourny. but i am saying at least we can get to .500 ball right? especially when you're a short shooting guard. i dont know if fultz is dwade with a jumpshot or Monte Ellis with a better jumper early on. he could be jamal crawford. excellent off the bench scorer. he could be the next lou williams. a great 6th man off the bench.

however, i do know that Lonzo ball is a jason kidd/cp3 type of pg that can make your team win more games than before he got their. I know that for a fact.

You dont draft lonzo to be the corner stone of the franchise. You draft him to pair with the corner stone of the franchise. Magic alone would have never won a title. But he needed kareem, big game to pull it off.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:43 pm    Post subject:

^Scoring playmakers since 1990.

Isiah Thomas
Michael Jordan/Scottie Pippen
Hakeem Olajuwon
Chauncey Billups
Tim Duncan (I guess he counts?)
Tony Parker
Kobe Bryant
LeBron James
Stephen Curry

That's off the top of my head. The last "traditional high assist PG" was Rajon Rondo, and he had plenty of weapons to pass to.

So, this isn't a recent trend.

Quote:

You dont draft lonzo to be the corner stone of the franchise.


I don't understand this logic. You have a Top 3 pick. Why aren't you drafting a corner stone franchise player?

Quote:


and again. i need someone to explain to me if fultz is as good as some of you think. how is it that non of that superior skill got the huskies to .500 ball? how do you have your 4th worse season of All time with that caliber of player on the team? it's not like he played for a d-2 school playing vs d-1's. I'm not asking for a lone wolf to drag his team into the tourny. but i am saying at least we can get to .500 ball right? especially when you're a short shooting guard. i dont know if fultz is dwade with a jumpshot or Monte Ellis with a better jumper early on. he could be jamal crawford. excellent off the bench scorer. he could be the next lou williams. a great 6th man off the bench.


As for this repetitive argument:
https://deanondraft.com/2017/01/15/is-markelle-fultz-a-loser/

Read it. Context.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:53 pm    Post subject:

Fultz is not a short "shooting guard". He's a tall point guard who plays unselfishly and has good vision. I know everyone buying into the whole pass first vs shoot first narrative, but discussion has gotten a bit extreme here. He's not some sort of gunner.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:56 pm    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
Fultz is not a short shooting guard. He's a tall point guard who plays unselfishly and has good vision. I know everyone buying into the whole pass first vs shoot first narrative, but he's not some sort of gunner.


I agree with this. I think he's going to have a similar progression as Russell as a PG though, in that he has a ways to go on understanding how to read a defense, which is different than court vision. But yeah, he's a PG, also considering that I don't love him on Catch & Shoot situations.
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