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BigBallerBrand Star Player
Joined: 23 Dec 2008 Posts: 5785 Location: LA
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:59 pm Post subject: Why did we lose Clarkson's 3? |
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If they are reviewing 2/3, can they also review for in/out? I thought the answer was no. For example, they cant just call a missed foul call when reviewing 2/3, in/out, etc..
Also, I didn't think clarkson was even on the line? His foot looked like it was over the line but not touching, isn't that ok? _________________ Billions Billions Billions |
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Worthy42 Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Aug 2004 Posts: 19952
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:03 pm Post subject: Re: Why did we lose Clarkson's 3? |
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15 wrote: | If they are reviewing 2/3, can they also review for in/out? I thought the answer was no. For example, they cant just call a missed foul call when reviewing 2/3, in/out, etc..
Also, I didn't think clarkson was even on the line? His foot looked like it was over the line but not touching, isn't that ok? |
On the Utah telecast they had a good camera angle. JC's backfoot was clearly out of bounds. Like half his foot was out of bounds.
Going 2-3 possessions back was questionable to make that call. I thought it was for 2pts or 3pts only. |
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levon Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Oct 2016 Posts: 10353
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Why did we lose Clarkson's 3? |
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15 wrote: | If they are reviewing 2/3, can they also review for in/out? I thought the answer was no. For example, they cant just call a missed foul call when reviewing 2/3, in/out, etc..
Also, I didn't think clarkson was even on the line? His foot looked like it was over the line but not touching, isn't that ok? |
His left heel was definitely on the line. I don't know if there's been a rule change, but ringfinger made a good point in the game thread. What if the shooter gets fouled and makes a 4-pt play, and the fouler gets fouled out? Do they also take away the and-1? Is the fouled out guy allowed to come back in?
Even if they have put in a ridiculous new rule like this, I thought if you intend to check for in bounds/out of bounds you can't call a foul after the fact (see game 2 of the 2012 finals when Lebron hacks Durant). If you're reviewing for 2/3, I really don't think you can call out of bounds. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know what the rules are, but if they an clearly see he was out of bounds they should make the correct call. A foul is a judgement call, your foot being over the line isn't. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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levon Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Oct 2016 Posts: 10353
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | I don't know what the rules are, but if they an clearly see he was out of bounds they should make the correct call. A foul is a judgement call, your foot being over the line isn't. |
That makes things infinitely complex because you're retroactively affecting a chain of events (see above). Like a point is a point as long as it's called ASAP, since 1 pt can also affect end of game strategies. But an entire field goal? |
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TDRock Retired Number
Joined: 27 May 2010 Posts: 48600 Location: LA to the Bay
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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That BS |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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levon wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | I don't know what the rules are, but if they an clearly see he was out of bounds they should make the correct call. A foul is a judgement call, your foot being over the line isn't. |
That makes things infinitely complex because you're retroactively affecting a chain of events (see above). Like a point is a point as long as it's called ASAP, since 1 pt can also affect end of game strategies. But an entire field goal? |
If it is the correct call. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Gatekeeper Star Player
Joined: 11 Jan 2012 Posts: 5103 Location: Southland Native
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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Surprised the refs didn't seek to deport only the Lakers foreign players at halftime. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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panamaniac Franchise Player
Joined: 28 May 2011 Posts: 11238 Location: PTY
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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That call was bull crap. You can't just erase a made field goal that was 2-3 possessions back. Not to mention the extra time that it took for the play to finish. Too many moving variables. But of course it's refs, and it's the Lakers so it's to be expected. |
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levon Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Oct 2016 Posts: 10353
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | levon wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | I don't know what the rules are, but if they an clearly see he was out of bounds they should make the correct call. A foul is a judgement call, your foot being over the line isn't. |
That makes things infinitely complex because you're retroactively affecting a chain of events (see above). Like a point is a point as long as it's called ASAP, since 1 pt can also affect end of game strategies. But an entire field goal? |
If it is the correct call. |
I appreciate the dedication to the rulebook, I definitely lean towards calling it to the book. But the refs are also bound by the rules. Just because they have the power to review by attending to one action doesn't mean they can make a call based on another action. If that's the case, why don't they call moving screens on 3's when they check 2/3? Or travels when they're checking for flagrants? |
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Math Star Player
Joined: 22 Mar 2015 Posts: 1550
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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The Illuminati. _________________ I'm a Balliever. |
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MAJIC Star Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2005 Posts: 3320 Location: OC
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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What a shocker that this beauty of a call happens at Utah. _________________ 16 and counting.... |
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levon Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Oct 2016 Posts: 10353
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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Also keep in mind I thought we got thoroughly jobbed by the refs tonight, so I'm a bit biased. I recognize our inability to guard the pick n roll and dribble penetration and our difficulty guarding without fouling, but that foul disparity was some (bleep). See Gobert frustratedly hitting Clarkson while Randle gets the offensive foul. |
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MAJIC Star Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2005 Posts: 3320 Location: OC
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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levon wrote: | Also keep in mind I thought we got thoroughly jobbed by the refs tonight, so I'm a bit biased. I recognize our inability to guard the pick n roll and dribble penetration and our difficulty guarding without fouling, but that foul disparity was some (bleep). See Gobert frustratedly hitting Clarkson while Randle gets the offensive foul. |
If you've followed the NBA for a little while it should not surprise you that the Jazz get a little extra "home cookin" when playing at the compound, or the Delta Center, or whatever the F they call that building these days.
Always have, always will. _________________ 16 and counting.... |
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Treble Clef Franchise Player
Joined: 20 Nov 2012 Posts: 23745
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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This is from the NBA site
Quote: | Review of Two-Point/Three-Point Field Goal Attempts or Fouls
Since the 2008-09 season, referees have reviewed all situations in which officials are not reasonably certain whether a successful field goal was scored correctly as a 2-point or 3-point field goal or, in the case of a called shooting foul, whether the player was attempting a 2-point or 3-point field goal.
In the case of a possible foul, the review takes place immediately before the free-throw attempts so referees know how many shots to award.
But when referees use replay to determine the correct scoring of a made basket, they wait to conduct the replay in most situations. This decision was made by the Competition Committee and Board of Governors' to lessen the impact of frequent stoppages, including stoppages that might disadvantage the new offensive team after a made field goal.
If the field goal occurred prior to the third full timeout in the fourth period, the review takes place at the next full timeout or period break following the basket.
If the field goal occurred after the third full timeout in the fourth period or in overtime, the review takes place at the next clock stoppage, including when the clock stops after made baskets in the last two minutes.
When conducting the review, referees will also try to determine if:
The shooter committed a boundary line violation at the moment he last touched the floor immediately prior to releasing the ball or the ball touched out-of-bounds (e.g., hitting the shot clock) prior to entering the basket,
In the case of a foul, whether the fouled player committed a boundary line violation,
A 24-second violation occurred, and
Any unsportsmanlike acts or unnecessary contact occurred. |
I rememeber seeing a basket taken away because they reviewed and saw the shot came after the 24 second clock but I hadn't seen it for an out of bounds call until now.
I do recall a Lakers game where someone threw up a wild three and it was tipped in. I think it was Dwight who tipped it in, maybe when he was on the Magic. I rememeber them saying it could have been reviewed if the three went in but since it was tipped, no review could be done because Dwight made the shot and he was clearly in bounds. That seems like it would go along with the rule as shown above. |
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mhan00 Retired Number
Joined: 13 Apr 2001 Posts: 32025
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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The Grind wrote: | That call was bull crap. You can't just erase a made field goal that was 2-3 possessions back. Not to mention the extra time that it took for the play to finish. Too many moving variables. But of course it's refs, and it's the Lakers so it's to be expected. |
You actually can. Refs can call for a review of a shot that was right up against the shot clock to verify they got it off in time and review it at the next dead ball. If it's determined it was too late, the shot is taken away no matter how many possessions it has been. I don't think I've ever seen a situation like the Clarkson review though. |
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Treble Clef Franchise Player
Joined: 20 Nov 2012 Posts: 23745
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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levon wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | levon wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | I don't know what the rules are, but if they an clearly see he was out of bounds they should make the correct call. A foul is a judgement call, your foot being over the line isn't. |
That makes things infinitely complex because you're retroactively affecting a chain of events (see above). Like a point is a point as long as it's called ASAP, since 1 pt can also affect end of game strategies. But an entire field goal? |
If it is the correct call. |
I appreciate the dedication to the rulebook, I definitely lean towards calling it to the book. But the refs are also bound by the rules. Just because they have the power to review by attending to one action doesn't mean they can make a call based on another action. If that's the case, why don't they call moving screens on 3's when they check 2/3? Or travels when they're checking for flagrants? |
I think we all want the right call to be made but I do see good reason to limit what is reviewable to the concrete rules and leave out anything that relies on opinion. If you could review fouls, there could be a bunch of fouls that could be given on every play and the game would be one non stop review. |
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levon Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Oct 2016 Posts: 10353
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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Treble Clef wrote: | This is from the NBA site
Quote: | Review of Two-Point/Three-Point Field Goal Attempts or Fouls
Since the 2008-09 season, referees have reviewed all situations in which officials are not reasonably certain whether a successful field goal was scored correctly as a 2-point or 3-point field goal or, in the case of a called shooting foul, whether the player was attempting a 2-point or 3-point field goal.
In the case of a possible foul, the review takes place immediately before the free-throw attempts so referees know how many shots to award.
But when referees use replay to determine the correct scoring of a made basket, they wait to conduct the replay in most situations. This decision was made by the Competition Committee and Board of Governors' to lessen the impact of frequent stoppages, including stoppages that might disadvantage the new offensive team after a made field goal.
If the field goal occurred prior to the third full timeout in the fourth period, the review takes place at the next full timeout or period break following the basket.
If the field goal occurred after the third full timeout in the fourth period or in overtime, the review takes place at the next clock stoppage, including when the clock stops after made baskets in the last two minutes.
When conducting the review, referees will also try to determine if:
The shooter committed a boundary line violation at the moment he last touched the floor immediately prior to releasing the ball or the ball touched out-of-bounds (e.g., hitting the shot clock) prior to entering the basket,
In the case of a foul, whether the fouled player committed a boundary line violation,
A 24-second violation occurred, and
Any unsportsmanlike acts or unnecessary contact occurred. |
I rememeber seeing a basket taken away because they reviewed and saw the shot came after the 24 second clock but I hadn't seen it for an out of bounds call until now.
I do recall a Lakers game where someone threw up a wild three and it was tipped in. I think it was Dwight who tipped it in, maybe when he was on the Magic. I rememeber them saying it could have been reviewed if the three went in but since it was tipped, no review could be done because Dwight made the shot and he was clearly in bounds. That seems like it would go along with the rule as shown above. |
I'm confused about the last paragraph. Are those separate reasons they can review the call or a collection of things they're allowed to review for and act upon just based on the 2/3 review? |
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kobedagoat Star Player
Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Posts: 2900 Location: Norfolk
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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Treble Clef wrote: | This is from the NBA site
Quote: | Review of Two-Point/Three-Point Field Goal Attempts or Fouls
Since the 2008-09 season, referees have reviewed all situations in which officials are not reasonably certain whether a successful field goal was scored correctly as a 2-point or 3-point field goal or, in the case of a called shooting foul, whether the player was attempting a 2-point or 3-point field goal.
In the case of a possible foul, the review takes place immediately before the free-throw attempts so referees know how many shots to award.
But when referees use replay to determine the correct scoring of a made basket, they wait to conduct the replay in most situations. This decision was made by the Competition Committee and Board of Governors' to lessen the impact of frequent stoppages, including stoppages that might disadvantage the new offensive team after a made field goal.
If the field goal occurred prior to the third full timeout in the fourth period, the review takes place at the next full timeout or period break following the basket.
If the field goal occurred after the third full timeout in the fourth period or in overtime, the review takes place at the next clock stoppage, including when the clock stops after made baskets in the last two minutes.
When conducting the review, referees will also try to determine if:
The shooter committed a boundary line violation at the moment he last touched the floor immediately prior to releasing the ball or the ball touched out-of-bounds (e.g., hitting the shot clock) prior to entering the basket,
In the case of a foul, whether the fouled player committed a boundary line violation,
A 24-second violation occurred, and
Any unsportsmanlike acts or unnecessary contact occurred. |
I rememeber seeing a basket taken away because they reviewed and saw the shot came after the 24 second clock but I hadn't seen it for an out of bounds call until now.
I do recall a Lakers game where someone threw up a wild three and it was tipped in. I think it was Dwight who tipped it in, maybe when he was on the Magic. I rememeber them saying it could have been reviewed if the three went in but since it was tipped, no review could be done because Dwight made the shot and he was clearly in bounds. That seems like it would go along with the rule as shown above. |
Took us 8 years to see this rule put into effect though? I've never seen of/heard of it, seemed like pretty much everyone associated with the game had never heard of it. Hell, Luke in the post game said he'd never heard of it.
None of us had ever seen this call used like that _________________ “Power resides only where men believe it resides...A shadow on the wall, yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow.” - GRRM |
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levon Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Oct 2016 Posts: 10353
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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Treble Clef wrote: | I think we all want the right call to be made but I do see good reason to limit what is reviewable to the concrete rules and leave out anything that relies on opinion. If you could review fouls, there could be a bunch of fouls that could be given on every play and the game would be one non stop review. |
Fair point. So checking bounds is concrete like checking 2/3, whereas fouls are subjective. What about traveling then? |
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levon Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Oct 2016 Posts: 10353
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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It's a rule then Don't agree with it, still think the review rules/justifications are unbalanced but good to know it's legal |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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levon wrote: | Treble Clef wrote: | This is from the NBA site
Quote: | Review of Two-Point/Three-Point Field Goal Attempts or Fouls
Since the 2008-09 season, referees have reviewed all situations in which officials are not reasonably certain whether a successful field goal was scored correctly as a 2-point or 3-point field goal or, in the case of a called shooting foul, whether the player was attempting a 2-point or 3-point field goal.
In the case of a possible foul, the review takes place immediately before the free-throw attempts so referees know how many shots to award.
But when referees use replay to determine the correct scoring of a made basket, they wait to conduct the replay in most situations. This decision was made by the Competition Committee and Board of Governors' to lessen the impact of frequent stoppages, including stoppages that might disadvantage the new offensive team after a made field goal.
If the field goal occurred prior to the third full timeout in the fourth period, the review takes place at the next full timeout or period break following the basket.
If the field goal occurred after the third full timeout in the fourth period or in overtime, the review takes place at the next clock stoppage, including when the clock stops after made baskets in the last two minutes.
When conducting the review, referees will also try to determine if:
The shooter committed a boundary line violation at the moment he last touched the floor immediately prior to releasing the ball or the ball touched out-of-bounds (e.g., hitting the shot clock) prior to entering the basket,
In the case of a foul, whether the fouled player committed a boundary line violation,
A 24-second violation occurred, and
Any unsportsmanlike acts or unnecessary contact occurred. |
I rememeber seeing a basket taken away because they reviewed and saw the shot came after the 24 second clock but I hadn't seen it for an out of bounds call until now.
I do recall a Lakers game where someone threw up a wild three and it was tipped in. I think it was Dwight who tipped it in, maybe when he was on the Magic. I rememeber them saying it could have been reviewed if the three went in but since it was tipped, no review could be done because Dwight made the shot and he was clearly in bounds. That seems like it would go along with the rule as shown above. |
I'm confused about the last paragraph. Are those separate reasons they can review the call or a collection of things they're allowed to review for and act upon just based on the 2/3 review? |
It means this.
1. Any shot where it's unclear whether it was a 2 or 3 is reviewed.
2. Anytime you conduct a 2/3 review, you also need to check for the items in the last paragraph.
So the items in the last paragraph don't trigger a review. But they are always part of a 2/3 review. |
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CBaller8 Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Feb 2002 Posts: 14876 Location: Reseda, CA
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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Basketball reasons |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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Even if they can, they should not allow a FG to be taken away.
Lets say same situation and Clarkson shoots 3 with foot on line and falls out of bounds in to the bench area.
Makes basket but opposing team quickly inbounds before he can get up and goes 5 on 4 to make a basket.
The made 3 allowed the quick 5 on 4 basket to occur. If they had made the right call, then, there would have been no easy 5 on 4 basket.
If it should have been out of bounds then it should have been opposing team inbounding ball from the side, not under basket. |
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