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fiendishoc
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
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Location: The (real) short corner
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 Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| KindCrippler2000 wrote: | With Mozgov (and TRob) out of the rotation, here are the updated rim protection numbers for all active bigs:
(Name opponent field goals made / opponent field goals attempted, % opponent shoots at the rim):
Nance 89/148 60.1%
Randle 142/249 57.0%
Black 106/203 52.2%
Zubac 70/141 49.6%
(Marc Gasol: 176/355 49.6%)
The Zubac-Gasol comparisons gets eerier by the day. 
*As expected, Zubac's effectiveness has decreased due to more PT. He's young, but the sample size is large enough to say he has promise as a defensive anchor. Like Ingram, he needs to get stronger to be more effective on both ends of the floor. He's still getting overpowered/abused by opponents. That's arguably his most glaring weakness right now. |
In terms of interior defense I trust on court opponent points (per 100 possessions) in the paint much more than the notoriously unreliable rim protection numbers:
https://tinyurl.com/jmxdm29
Zubac has a ways to go, which is to be expected at his stage of development. |
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LakerEric
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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If this team isn't one of the top ten as far as WORST EVER...I'd be shocked!
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerEric wrote: | | If this team isn't one of the top ten as far as WORST EVER...I'd be shocked! |
Are you overdosing on hyperbole on every thread?
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LakerLanny
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:47 am Post subject: |
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I keep wondering if or when the lightbulb will go on for our young team and they will start exerting the proper effort on defense.
If they really want to win as they say they do, it isn't rocket science. I keep reading all these threads about the offense as if that is the issue, it isn't.
The offense is adequate and showing signs of hope for the future.
The defense? That is another story.
Last night they gave up 70 in the first half (at home) to the Celtics. That is absurd and embarrassing. They were down 25 at the half and obviously the game was over.
A NBA Team should never give up 70 in a half, that is not good basketball, not winning basketball and that type of play is why I have major doubts about the future of our young core.
These guys need to find their heart and start playing much more aggressive, alert defense.
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KindCrippler2000
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Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 15821
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | With Mozgov (and TRob) out of the rotation, here are the updated rim protection numbers for all active bigs:
(Name opponent field goals made / opponent field goals attempted, % opponent shoots at the rim):
Nance 89/148 60.1%
Randle 142/249 57.0%
Black 106/203 52.2%
Zubac 70/141 49.6%
(Marc Gasol: 176/355 49.6%)
The Zubac-Gasol comparisons gets eerier by the day.
*As expected, Zubac's effectiveness has decreased due to more PT. He's young, but the sample size is large enough to say he has promise as a defensive anchor. Like Ingram, he needs to get stronger to be more effective on both ends of the floor. He's still getting overpowered/abused by opponents. That's arguably his most glaring weakness right now. |
In terms of interior defense I trust on court opponent points (per 100 possessions) in the paint much more than the notoriously unreliable rim protection numbers:
https://tinyurl.com/jmxdm29
Zubac has a ways to go, which is to be expected at his stage of development. |
I don't think it's unreliable at all. Like all statistics, they have to be put in the proper context and corroborated with what happens on the court. There's a reason guys like Embiid, Gobert, Whiteside, Green, Dedmon hover in the 42-49 range. If the center is seen as the last line of defense, there needs to be much more emphasis on those numbers for that position - I would throw it out for guards and forwards. If the guards give up dribble penetration every other play, then the data will obviously be skewed.
Just from watching Zubac play, he alters/contests shots, although the vast majority of his issues in the paint seem to stem from opponents overpowering him. Just like with Ingram, he needs to get stronger. He'll improve over the years and in terms of rim protection, he projects much better than any other player on the team. |
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KindCrippler2000
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Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 15821
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLanny wrote: | I keep wondering if or when the lightbulb will go on for our young team and they will start exerting the proper effort on defense.
If they really want to win as they say they do, it isn't rocket science. I keep reading all these threads about the offense as if that is the issue, it isn't.
The offense is adequate and showing signs of hope for the future.
The defense? That is another story.
Last night they gave up 70 in the first half (at home) to the Celtics. That is absurd and embarrassing. They were down 25 at the half and obviously the game was over.
A NBA Team should never give up 70 in a half, that is not good basketball, not winning basketball and that type of play is why I have major doubts about the future of our young core.
These guys need to find their heart and start playing much more aggressive, alert defense. |
If they've regressed on the defensive end this season, I don't think there will ever be a light-bulb moment for the team. Defensive issues stem from lack of proper personnel. They signed Nwaba for a reason. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerEric wrote: | | If this team isn't one of the top ten as far as WORST EVER...I'd be shocked! |
Heck, they're not even the worst defense in the NBA this season. They ranked number 2 in worst defense |
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fiendishoc
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 8488
Location: The (real) short corner
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | With Mozgov (and TRob) out of the rotation, here are the updated rim protection numbers for all active bigs:
(Name opponent field goals made / opponent field goals attempted, % opponent shoots at the rim):
Nance 89/148 60.1%
Randle 142/249 57.0%
Black 106/203 52.2%
Zubac 70/141 49.6%
(Marc Gasol: 176/355 49.6%)
The Zubac-Gasol comparisons gets eerier by the day.
*As expected, Zubac's effectiveness has decreased due to more PT. He's young, but the sample size is large enough to say he has promise as a defensive anchor. Like Ingram, he needs to get stronger to be more effective on both ends of the floor. He's still getting overpowered/abused by opponents. That's arguably his most glaring weakness right now. |
In terms of interior defense I trust on court opponent points (per 100 possessions) in the paint much more than the notoriously unreliable rim protection numbers:
https://tinyurl.com/jmxdm29
Zubac has a ways to go, which is to be expected at his stage of development. |
I don't think it's unreliable at all. Like all statistics, they have to be put in the proper context and corroborated with what happens on the court. There's a reason guys like Embiid, Gobert, Whiteside, Green, Dedmon hover in the 42-49 range. If the center is seen as the last line of defense, there needs to be much more emphasis on those numbers for that position - I would throw it out for guards and forwards. If the guards give up dribble penetration every other play, then the data will obviously be skewed.
Just from watching Zubac play, he alters/contests shots, although the vast majority of his issues in the paint seem to stem from opponents overpowering him. Just like with Ingram, he needs to get stronger. He'll improve over the years and in terms of rim protection, he projects much better than any other player on the team. |
The reason I said unreliable is because they did studies on this and the system frequently misidentifies the closest defender and whether there is a contest or not. Like if Mozgov and Black are just as bad or worse than Randle at rim protection then why do opponents score so many fewer points in the paint when the former are on the court as opposed to the latter? |
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KindCrippler2000
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Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 15821
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | With Mozgov (and TRob) out of the rotation, here are the updated rim protection numbers for all active bigs:
(Name opponent field goals made / opponent field goals attempted, % opponent shoots at the rim):
Nance 89/148 60.1%
Randle 142/249 57.0%
Black 106/203 52.2%
Zubac 70/141 49.6%
(Marc Gasol: 176/355 49.6%)
The Zubac-Gasol comparisons gets eerier by the day.
*As expected, Zubac's effectiveness has decreased due to more PT. He's young, but the sample size is large enough to say he has promise as a defensive anchor. Like Ingram, he needs to get stronger to be more effective on both ends of the floor. He's still getting overpowered/abused by opponents. That's arguably his most glaring weakness right now. |
In terms of interior defense I trust on court opponent points (per 100 possessions) in the paint much more than the notoriously unreliable rim protection numbers:
https://tinyurl.com/jmxdm29
Zubac has a ways to go, which is to be expected at his stage of development. |
I don't think it's unreliable at all. Like all statistics, they have to be put in the proper context and corroborated with what happens on the court. There's a reason guys like Embiid, Gobert, Whiteside, Green, Dedmon hover in the 42-49 range. If the center is seen as the last line of defense, there needs to be much more emphasis on those numbers for that position - I would throw it out for guards and forwards. If the guards give up dribble penetration every other play, then the data will obviously be skewed.
Just from watching Zubac play, he alters/contests shots, although the vast majority of his issues in the paint seem to stem from opponents overpowering him. Just like with Ingram, he needs to get stronger. He'll improve over the years and in terms of rim protection, he projects much better than any other player on the team. |
The reason I said unreliable is because they did studies on this and the system frequently misidentifies the closest defender and whether there is a contest or not. Like if Mozgov and Black are just as bad or worse than Randle at rim protection then why do opponents score so many fewer points in the paint when the former are on the court as opposed to the latter? |
1) Please link these studies. I have some time, so I'll even go through it myself and post the numbers here. I think it's accurate for the rim protectors I mentioned above. This can even be seen by watching them - all data should be corroborated by the game tape.
2) That's because Mozgov and Black are posting better rim protection numbers. By a 4% margin actually. |
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fiendishoc
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 8488
Location: The (real) short corner
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | With Mozgov (and TRob) out of the rotation, here are the updated rim protection numbers for all active bigs:
(Name opponent field goals made / opponent field goals attempted, % opponent shoots at the rim):
Nance 89/148 60.1%
Randle 142/249 57.0%
Black 106/203 52.2%
Zubac 70/141 49.6%
(Marc Gasol: 176/355 49.6%)
The Zubac-Gasol comparisons gets eerier by the day.
*As expected, Zubac's effectiveness has decreased due to more PT. He's young, but the sample size is large enough to say he has promise as a defensive anchor. Like Ingram, he needs to get stronger to be more effective on both ends of the floor. He's still getting overpowered/abused by opponents. That's arguably his most glaring weakness right now. |
In terms of interior defense I trust on court opponent points (per 100 possessions) in the paint much more than the notoriously unreliable rim protection numbers:
https://tinyurl.com/jmxdm29
Zubac has a ways to go, which is to be expected at his stage of development. |
I don't think it's unreliable at all. Like all statistics, they have to be put in the proper context and corroborated with what happens on the court. There's a reason guys like Embiid, Gobert, Whiteside, Green, Dedmon hover in the 42-49 range. If the center is seen as the last line of defense, there needs to be much more emphasis on those numbers for that position - I would throw it out for guards and forwards. If the guards give up dribble penetration every other play, then the data will obviously be skewed.
Just from watching Zubac play, he alters/contests shots, although the vast majority of his issues in the paint seem to stem from opponents overpowering him. Just like with Ingram, he needs to get stronger. He'll improve over the years and in terms of rim protection, he projects much better than any other player on the team. |
The reason I said unreliable is because they did studies on this and the system frequently misidentifies the closest defender and whether there is a contest or not. Like if Mozgov and Black are just as bad or worse than Randle at rim protection then why do opponents score so many fewer points in the paint when the former are on the court as opposed to the latter? |
1) Please link these studies. I have some time, so I'll even go through it myself and post the numbers here. I think it's accurate for the rim protectors I mentioned above. This can even be seen by watching them - all data should be corroborated by the game tape.
2) That's because Mozgov and Black are posting better rim protection numbers. By a 4% margin actually. |
Here's one: http://www1.vantagesports.com/Articles/article_view/ViAAjSEAAFIWKwSG
Doesn't deal with rim protection directly, but on contested shots. I'm still looking for a comment that Second Spectrum (replacing Synergy next year) made on this issue. As for #2, I was going off of your earlier post in January- didn't know the numbers changed so dramatically in such a short time. |
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KindCrippler2000
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Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 15821
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | With Mozgov (and TRob) out of the rotation, here are the updated rim protection numbers for all active bigs:
(Name opponent field goals made / opponent field goals attempted, % opponent shoots at the rim):
Nance 89/148 60.1%
Randle 142/249 57.0%
Black 106/203 52.2%
Zubac 70/141 49.6%
(Marc Gasol: 176/355 49.6%)
The Zubac-Gasol comparisons gets eerier by the day.
*As expected, Zubac's effectiveness has decreased due to more PT. He's young, but the sample size is large enough to say he has promise as a defensive anchor. Like Ingram, he needs to get stronger to be more effective on both ends of the floor. He's still getting overpowered/abused by opponents. That's arguably his most glaring weakness right now. |
In terms of interior defense I trust on court opponent points (per 100 possessions) in the paint much more than the notoriously unreliable rim protection numbers:
https://tinyurl.com/jmxdm29
Zubac has a ways to go, which is to be expected at his stage of development. |
I don't think it's unreliable at all. Like all statistics, they have to be put in the proper context and corroborated with what happens on the court. There's a reason guys like Embiid, Gobert, Whiteside, Green, Dedmon hover in the 42-49 range. If the center is seen as the last line of defense, there needs to be much more emphasis on those numbers for that position - I would throw it out for guards and forwards. If the guards give up dribble penetration every other play, then the data will obviously be skewed.
Just from watching Zubac play, he alters/contests shots, although the vast majority of his issues in the paint seem to stem from opponents overpowering him. Just like with Ingram, he needs to get stronger. He'll improve over the years and in terms of rim protection, he projects much better than any other player on the team. |
The reason I said unreliable is because they did studies on this and the system frequently misidentifies the closest defender and whether there is a contest or not. Like if Mozgov and Black are just as bad or worse than Randle at rim protection then why do opponents score so many fewer points in the paint when the former are on the court as opposed to the latter? |
1) Please link these studies. I have some time, so I'll even go through it myself and post the numbers here. I think it's accurate for the rim protectors I mentioned above. This can even be seen by watching them - all data should be corroborated by the game tape.
2) That's because Mozgov and Black are posting better rim protection numbers. By a 4% margin actually. |
Here's one: http://www1.vantagesports.com/Articles/article_view/ViAAjSEAAFIWKwSG
Doesn't deal with rim protection directly, but on contested shots. I'm still looking for a comment that Second Spectrum (replacing Synergy next year) made on this issue. As for #2, I was going off of your earlier post in January- didn't know the numbers changed so dramatically in such a short time. |
Interesting... although that was written over a year and 5 months ago. Is there a possibility that they've adjusted, refined their tracking system(s) during that time? That being said, I don't think the tracking data is unreliable for some of the elite rim protectors - it's still accurate to some degree. I also don't think it's a coincidence Zubac, Black are posting the best rim protection numbers on the team.
If it were really off, then it would have to be reflected for guys like Embiid, Porzingis, Green, Gobert, etc. If the center is the last line of defense, that means the best are going to put themselves in a position to defend the rim. |
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fiendishoc
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Location: The (real) short corner
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I didn't say that it was bogus data- just that I preferred alternative measures due to concerns about reliability. Or even better, you could combine the two for a better picture.
As for whether SportVU has adjusted, if they have it's too late. They're already being replaced. |
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dcarter4kobe
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Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 17674
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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According to Synergy and PPP allowed on defense, the only average and/or above average defenders we have are
T.Black-79th percentile
Mozgov-64th percentile
Nance-60th percentile
DLO-56th percentile
Deng-53rd percentile
https://twitter.com/LakerFilmRoom/status/839207646901104640
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"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though." |
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defense
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 39451
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| dcarter4kobe wrote: | According to Synergy and PPP allowed on defense, the only average and/or above average defenders we have are
T.Black-79th percentile
Mozgov-64th percentile
Nance-60th percentile
DLO-56th percentile
Deng-53rd percentile
https://twitter.com/LakerFilmRoom/status/839207646901104640 |
I actually could have guessed this lol. The problem with this team is the defensive guys have no offense and the offensive guys have no defense. |
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dcarter4kobe
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Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 17674
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| defense wrote: | | dcarter4kobe wrote: | According to Synergy and PPP allowed on defense, the only average and/or above average defenders we have are
T.Black-79th percentile
Mozgov-64th percentile
Nance-60th percentile
DLO-56th percentile
Deng-53rd percentile
https://twitter.com/LakerFilmRoom/status/839207646901104640 |
I actually could have guessed this lol. The problem with this team is the defensive guys have no offense and the offensive guys have no defense. |
Everybody but DLO could have been easily guessed.
_________________
"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though." |
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Triangle_Offense
Star Player
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Posts: 2063
Location: AZ
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:29 am Post subject: Re: Lakers defensive rankings after 23 games (will continue updating) |
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Updated:
25th in Opponent 3FG%
28th in Opponent pts per game
28th in blocks per game
30th in Defensive Rating
30th in Opponent FG%
30th in Opponent fast break points per game
Hey but we're 11th in steals per game!
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pio2u
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Joined: 26 Dec 2012
Posts: 54573
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Lakers defensive rankings after 23 games (will continue updating) |
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| Triangle_Offense wrote: | Updated:
25th in Opponent 3FG%
28th in Opponent pts per game
28th in blocks per game
30th in Defensive Rating
30th in Opponent FG%
30th in Opponent fast break points per game
Hey but we're 11th in steals per game!
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bottom of the barrel
I'm sure the D-Fenders would give these guys a run for their money. |
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pio2u
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:50 am Post subject: |
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FYI:
The Lakers have six losses by 35 or more points this season, the most such losses by a team in NBA history, according to Justin Kubatko at statmuse.com. |
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danzag
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Joined: 28 Apr 2013
Posts: 22313
Location: Brazil
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| We cant defend a team of 5th graders |
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KindCrippler2000
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Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 15821
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Lakers defensive rankings after 23 games (will continue updating) |
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| Triangle_Offense wrote: | Updated:
25th in Opponent 3FG%
28th in Opponent pts per game
28th in blocks per game
30th in Defensive Rating
30th in Opponent FG%
30th in Opponent fast break points per game
Hey but we're 11th in steals per game!
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Addendum -
29th in Opponent paint points per game (courtesy of Luke's midget-ball rotations).
As of now, Lakers are posting the worst defensive efficiency rating (111.2) of the decade (2010-2017). We have to go back to the 2008-2009 season to find worse defensive teams.  |
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justsomelakerfan
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Posts: 10939
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:57 am Post subject: |
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who are some interesting names that the org should look into hiring as defensive coordinators? If anyone is in the know
Defense is a (bleep) trainwreck. The Warriors are so great because they're dominant on both ends, Walton 
Saw this graph on Twitter btw - how the defensive rating has progressed or regressed for every team in the NBA in 20-game intervals. Right around the all star break it dies and goes straight to heaven
https://twitter.com/presidual/status/844578037601484804
LAL on bottom right
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tox
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Posts: 17876
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| justsomelakerfan wrote: | who are some interesting names that the org should look into hiring as defensive coordinators? If anyone is in the know
Defense is a (bleep) trainwreck. The Warriors are so great because they're dominant on both ends, Walton
Saw this graph on Twitter btw - how the defensive rating has progressed or regressed for every team in the NBA in 20-game intervals. Right around the all star break it dies and goes straight to heaven
https://twitter.com/presidual/status/844578037601484804
LAL on bottom right |
If you look carefully, you can see the very moment the Lakers decided to tank. Around the 55 game mark, they started to look passable on defense. Soon after, MozDeng got benched lol |
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defense
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| One starts to wonder will this group ever play respectable defense? |
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dcarter4kobe
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Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 17674
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| defense wrote: | | One starts to wonder will this group ever play respectable defense? |
We need a mix of veterans added (Livingston, Thabo, Amir Johnson, Taj Gibson) on short term deals+ a real defensive coach added to the staff.
_________________
"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though." |
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KindCrippler2000
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Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 15821
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| defense wrote: | | One starts to wonder will this group ever play respectable defense? |
I'm guessing never. I was never optimistic about the defense at any point this season.
Just around the time they were 10-10, I predicted this would happen because they were so hell-bent on outscoring opponents (courtesy of Lou Williams and Nick Young). They got scouted and the rest was history.
They've been historically bad since Jan. 15, although Tarik Black starting for a brief stretch shored up the DRTG. It doesn't matter what rotations were trotted out - the personnel has always been lacking according to the week to week dtrgs. They'll need major movement this off-season to fix it. I have no doubt FO considers some guys expendable because of it. |
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