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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:33 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
DMR, that's not enough evidence for me, especially not from 1972 (which was a different time in this country). Still, even if that makes Trump a racist, that doesn't make him someone sympathetic to Nazis or the KKK, which would be a whole other level.

I think Trump is capable of discrimination because it gets him an advantage, but I don't necessarily think its because it comes from an inherently racist belief system, which is a distinction.

While I wholeheartedly believe someone like Sessions hates everyone who isn't white, male and rich, I just tend to think Trump hates anyone who doesn't support him and, further, will support anyone who can benefit him, for good or bad. If that means discriminating against black people in the 70s because he believes it would profit him, fine. If that means discriminating against black people now because it would get him votes. Fine. However, I don't think that makes him racist, I just think that makes him an immoral and unethical opportunist who doesn't care what lines he has to cross to acquire an advantage.


Fair enough. But we will have to disagree on that point that surrounding oneself with open and obvious racists as part of your base of power doesn't mean one is sympathetic to or identifies with their racist ideals.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:39 pm    Post subject:

Huffington Post: Here Are 13 Examples Of Donald Trump Being Racist

Fortune: Is Donald Trump Racist? Hereís What the Record Shows

Donald Trump believes he has superior genes, biographer claims
Republican nominee follows 'racehorse theory' of genetics


The Frontline documentary ďThe Choice,Ē which premiered this week on PBS, reveals that Trump agrees with the dangerous and abusive theory of eugenics.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
adkindo wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
adkindo wrote:
has anyone ever been to an ADL event where they claimed hate crimes were on the decline


That things were on the decline? Yes, actually. Until about a year ago and then, suddenly, hate crimes were on the uprise. Hmm, wonder why. Anyone who actually attends an ADL meetings would know that, instead of so easily dismissing the ADL. And, for reference, most of the ADL events I attend are actually attended by moderate conservatives and moderate liberals. The ADL isn't political like the ACLU.


I neither said they were political nor did I dismiss them. In fact, I have never been to a meeting and have no issue with your claim of who attends, but the organizations survival and ability to raise funds would likely correlate with the rise and fall with the perceptions of hate and racism I would assume.


Its an organization that focuses on many different issues. They focus on police community training, anti-bully campaigns, immigration issues and access to justice for those in poverty, among many, many other issues. It's not an organization that just focuses on hate crimes. Recently, that has been more of their focus, but, yea, two years ago, IRCC, there was a focus on school bullying because of all the school shootings. The ADL just goes where the problems are.

Why I said your post was dismissive is because you implied that they would lie about the frequency of hate crimes to get funding. The ADL doesn't have any need to exaggerate anything as there are always enough for them to cover. In any case, the increase in reported hate crimes isn't just reported by the ADL.

Reported Hate Crimes up 20% Nationally in 2016 Fueled by the Trump Presidential Election Campaign


While the ADL has actually did a solid job of not mixing the personal views of leadership with the groups agenda in the past, Greenblatt has been a total failure in regard to withholding this standard. He is an extreme liberal and has consistently allowed his personal opinions and exaggerations impede the core mission of the group. This may or may not have affected efforts on the ground, because as I understand the organization, most of their core work is local and regional....it has certainly damaged the perception of the organization being non-partisan at the national level.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject:

rwongega wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Trump's ambiguous condemnation is not about his support of Nazi views, but rather his clear intention to not alienate them, his aim to not lose their votes and, thus, his implicit support of them (views and all) regardless. Its amazing how no one calls Trump out for refusing to wholly condemn them because he wants their votes. Sure, the media may call him out for not using the language he should and failing to fully condemn them, but fails to discuss that connection and the real reason why he refuses to.

Much of the Trump base are these people and its becoming clearer and clearer that a significant % of this country (all within the Trump base) holds racist and prejudice views, and they now feel entitled to express them. I truly wonder how many of those Nazis today were "new" recruits, finally coming out of the closet because Trump gave them cover to.

In that sense, Trump has helped this nation as a reality check of what's really out there. Maybe it needs to get as bad as it can get just until Trump is out of the office and then someone serious is elected who can actually address these issues in an effective way.


I agree he doesn't want to alienate them. I completely disagree that he doesn't support them. His record of racist practices in regards to his real estate business etc. and the fact that he has surrounded himself by vermin like Bannon and Sessions indicate he absolutely agrees with them. Let's not excuse him because he is too cowardly to be as blatant about it as the cabinet members he appointed.


You could be right. Its hard to separate the man from the politician. However, I'm of the opinion that Trump doesn't much believe in anything but himself. HIs history as a public figure doesn't seem to paint him as a racist, but just as an attention whore. As such, I don't think he's a racist, I think he's an opportunist. To this day, I believe that if being liberal could have got him to the Presidency, he would be liberal. Conversely, indirectly supporting racism got him elected and I think he'll continue to do so until, and only if, he believes it will cost him his popularity and/or his votes in the next election. And, at this point, I have no clue if it will.


But his history as a businessman does:

[url=http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/sep/27/hillary-clinton/true-hillary-clinton-says-federal-government-sued-/][/url]

Trump "started his career back in 1973 being sued by the Justice Department for racial discrimination because he would not rent apartments in one of his developments to African-Americans."

Both parts of the statement are carefully worded and accurate. The Justice Department sued Trump, his father and their company under the Civil Rights Act in 1973. In many instances, the government said, prospective black tenants were blocked from renting in his buildings.

The case was settled and Trump never admitted guilt, though his company had to agree to stipulations meant to prevent future discrimination at his rental properties.


That was pretty typical of most businessmen and landlords in that time. From a strictly business sense, there was the perception that having black people move in would lower property value. See white flight.


Ah well . . . then it's perfectly OK.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:45 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
DMR, that's not enough evidence for me, especially not from 1972 (which was a different time in this country). Still, even if that makes Trump a racist, that doesn't make him someone sympathetic to Nazis or the KKK, which would be a whole other level.

I think Trump is capable of discrimination because it gets him an advantage, but I don't necessarily think its because it comes from an inherently racist belief system, which is a distinction.

While I wholeheartedly believe someone like Sessions hates everyone who isn't white, male and rich, I just tend to think Trump hates anyone who doesn't support him and, further, will support anyone who can benefit him, for good or bad. If that means discriminating against black people in the 70s because he believes it would profit him, fine. If that means discriminating against black people now because it would get him votes. Fine. However, I don't think that makes him racist, I just think that makes him an immoral and unethical opportunist who doesn't care what lines he has to cross to acquire an advantage.


Fair enough. But we will have to disagree on that point that surrounding oneself with open and obvious racists as part of your base of power doesn't mean one is sympathetic to or identifies with their racist ideals.


I agree with DMR.

Would just like to add that these things are not mutually exclusive.

Yes, he is a conman who takes advantage of everyone and everything if he can twist it to benefit himself.

And, since I believe he has racist views himself, he knows precisely how to use those thoughts and feelings to manipulate others to get what he wants.

He was the primary Birther and has done everything possible to erase Obama from the history books. BUT IT'S ALL A BIG COINCIDENCE THAT OBAMA IS BLACK?

No.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:45 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
This may or may not have affected efforts on the ground, because as I understand the organization, most of their core work is local and regional....


That's how it works. While the local/regional chapters report to the national organization, they mostly focus on local issues and work within the community where that chapter exists. In Orange County, which is a hub for white supremacy, there is a focus on hate crimes, whereas in Los Angeles County, there is more of a focus on police-community integration.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:48 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
He was the primary Birther and has done everything possible to erase Obama from the history books. BUT IT'S ALL A BIG COINCIDENCE THAT OBAMA IS BLACK?

No.


I agree being an opportunist and being a racist are not mutually exclusive. I also agree he could very well hold racist beliefs. Still, this last point of yours fits within the narrative I'm describing as much as it does your argument he is a racist.

Honestly, if he's not a racist, I actually think the fact he takes advantage of racism to gain an advantage is even worse. In some ways, at least a racist lives by principles. I'm saying Trump has none at all, except self-promotion. If he could get away with it, I'd guess Trump would commit murder if it helped him. He's a dumber and more fragile version of Frank Underwood.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:48 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
DMR, that's not enough evidence for me, especially not from 1972 (which was a different time in this country). Still, even if that makes Trump a racist, that doesn't make him someone sympathetic to Nazis or the KKK, which would be a whole other level.

I think Trump is capable of discrimination because it gets him an advantage, but I don't necessarily think its because it comes from an inherently racist belief system, which is a distinction.

While I wholeheartedly believe someone like Sessions hates everyone who isn't white, male and rich, I just tend to think Trump hates anyone who doesn't support him and, further, will support anyone who can benefit him, for good or bad. If that means discriminating against black people in the 70s because he believes it would profit him, fine. If that means discriminating against black people now because it would get him votes. Fine. However, I don't think that makes him racist, I just think that makes him an immoral and unethical opportunist who doesn't care what lines he has to cross to acquire an advantage.


Fair enough. But we will have to disagree on that point that surrounding oneself with open and obvious racists as part of your base of power doesn't mean one is sympathetic to or identifies with their racist ideals.


I agree with DMR.

Would just like to add that these things are not mutually exclusive.

Yes, he is a conman who takes advantage of everyone and everything if he can twist it to benefit himself.

And, since I believe he has racist views himself, he knows precisely how to use those thoughts and feelings to manipulate others to get what he wants.

He was the primary Birther and has done everything possible to erase Obama from the history books. BUT IT'S ALL A BIG COINCIDENCE THAT OBAMA IS BLACK?

No
.


And I agree with CL
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:56 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
HIs history as a public figure doesn't seem to paint him as a racist, but just as an attention whore. As such, I don't think he's a racist, I think he's an opportunist. To this day, I believe that if being liberal could have got him to the Presidency, he would be liberal. Conversely, indirectly supporting racism got him elected and I think he'll continue to do so until, and only if, he believes it will cost him his popularity and/or his votes in the next election. And, at this point, I have no clue if it will.


The Central Park 5 and birtherism are 2 things that convince me Trump's racist.

The opportunist argument is interesting though. But I have a feeling someone could argue the same thing about Hitler for example. He didn't really hate Jews. He was just being opportunistic. Capitalizing on the resentment Germans had toward Jewish people.

I guess the best answer is Trump (and Hitler) are both prejudice and opportunistic. Don't think it's a mutually exclusive thing.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:02 pm    Post subject:

^Trump and Hitler aren't in the same league. Comparing the two is offensive, not because Trump isn't bad, but because of how terrible Hitler was. To compare Trump to Hitler minimizes how horrible Hitler was. Kill 10 million Jews and then maybe we can start comparing them in some way.

Anyway, I guess this whole racist v. non-racist thing doesn't much matter. He's a despicable and immoral person regardless. In many ways, I hope he continues down this line of being the absolute worst President in the US history (so long as it doesn't lead us into any war). That would be mean the two most recent Republican Presidents were also two of the worst Presidents ever. You'd think that would convince the electorate of something.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:07 pm    Post subject:

Imagine if UK officials made the same statement Trump did today, when people were running over Muslims in their country.
The large number of Muslim immigrants into Europe and the UK has coincided with domestic attacks. But with that said, UK leaders still took a hard stance against violence committed against Muslims. What terrorist act did these Charlottesville anti-racist protesters commit? Nada. Nothing.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:07 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
^Trump and Hitler aren't in the same league. Comparing the two is offensive, not because Trump isn't bad, but because of how terrible Hitler was. To compare Trump to Hitler minimizes how horrible Hitler was. Kill 10 million Jews and then maybe we can start comparing them in some way.

Anyway, I guess this whole racist v. non-racist thing doesn't much matter. He's a despicable and immoral person regardless. In many ways, I hope he continues down this line of being the absolute worst President in the US history (so long as it doesn't lead us into any war). That would be mean the two most recent Republican Presidents were also two of the worst Presidents ever. You'd think that would convince the electorate of something.


Agree completely. Though it is important to acknowledge it's only a matter of degree. Much of what Trump is doing mirrors some of what the most destructive fascists have done - attempting to discredit the press, attempting to consolidate power in a small group of leaders and insulating them from accountability, etc.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:36 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
^Trump and Hitler aren't in the same league. Comparing the two is offensive, not because Trump isn't bad, but because of how terrible Hitler was. To compare Trump to Hitler minimizes how horrible Hitler was. Kill 10 million Jews and then maybe we can start comparing them in some way.


Of course holistically they aren't in the same league.
But I do see comparable behavior. Specifically what we were talking about (galvanizing masses by spouting prejudicial beliefs). I don't see why your opportunistic argument couldn't be applied to Adolf as well.

I don't think Trump would commit genocide if given the opportunity. Imprison minorities at a higher rate than they already are... sure. Reducing minorities access to higher education...sure. Racial profiling ...sure. But not murder.

Holistically, Trump's reign won't ever be on the same level as Hitler's. And I mostly attribute that to our democracy (as opposed to Trump's character).
WW2 Hitler can't exist as a US politician in 2016 America, with our checks and balances and our free press.
But I do notice how Trump is pushing the limits when it comes to long-respected institutions built to analyze or reign in Presidential power.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:02 pm    Post subject:

Kikanga, I'm saying this as nicely as I can... please stop with the analogy. There is a lot that separates Hitler from Trump past Hitler's slavery and genocide of millions of innocent human beings simply because they weren't white and Christian. Every time someone invokes Hitler's name simply because some bad guy appears dilutes Hitler and makes it easy to forget just how terrible Hitler, and all he did, was.

In all sincerity, if you really believe there are any similarities of any significance, I would suggest a deeper study of Hitler, as well as post-World War I Germany. If you do, you'll see that Hitler's and Trump's rise to power cannot be compared in any really significant way. I would also take a look at Mein Kampf, which you will find in no way can be compared to Trump's "Art of the Deal."

I'll even admit that there may have been an instance in a more heated moment where I made the same error sometime around the time Trump got elected. I can't remember if I did as that analogy was being made by many, but even if I did, it was wrong as I believe it is wrong now.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:35 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
Kikanga, I'm saying this as nicely as I can... please stop with the analogy. There is a lot that separates Hitler from Trump past Hitler's slavery and genocide of millions of innocent human beings simply because they weren't white and Christian. Every time someone invokes Hitler's name simply because some bad guy appears dilutes Hitler and makes it easy to forget just how terrible Hitler, and all he did, was.

In all sincerity, if you really believe there are any similarities of any significance, I would suggest a deeper study of Hitler, as well as post-World War I Germany. If you do, you'll see that Hitler's and Trump's rise to power cannot be compared in any really significant way. I would also take a look at Mein Kampf, which you will find in no way can be compared to Trump's "Art of the Deal."

I'll even admit that there may have been an instance in a more heated moment where I made the same error sometime around the time Trump got elected. I can't remember if I did as that analogy was being made by many, but even if I did, it was wrong as I believe it is wrong now.


I think I accurately described the similarities the two leaders share.
And I don't think anything you've said in this post disagrees with anything I said in mine.
I'm not minimizing Hitler's crimes in any way. And if it's coming off that way, it's my fault for failing to explain my point accurately.
My point is. Take any world leader who exhibits prejudicial behavior. I think you can argue for any of them. They are being opportunistic. I don't know if you can win a national election without being opportunistic in the first place. And it's up to other institutions within the government to check abuses of power. Proper checks and balances and a truly free press are the best way to fight institutionalized racism coming from the executive IMO.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:37 pm    Post subject:

Donny once again shows he's an empty suit, (bleep) all of this (bleep).

And I always love how people try to handwave this stuff away. Simps.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:08 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Raijin wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
adkindo wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
adkindo wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
The federal government (maybe in the DOJ) had a group that kept tabs on White Supremacist groups, right-wing militias, etc. One of the first things Trump administration did was defund it.


is there some elevated crime spree or national security issues I am unaware of related to white supremacists or "right wing" militias? Are these groups even growing at a rate worth recognition?


Have you even read the news?

Quote:
This is "boogey man" stuff...these groups have been irrelevant for decades and remain irrelevant.


No . . . it's not. The KKK/Neo-Nazi movement may have been relatively quiet in recent years, but it has never been irrelevant and it clearly is highly relevant now.


there is no movement...these are mostly a few uneducated d bags getting attention. There is real problematic growth taking place with groups such as MS-13, Latin Kings, Mexican Mafia, Somali and Hatian gangs among others that are leaving trails of violence and blood from coast to coast.....those guys in Virginia are idiots that live above their parents garage.



Now we see why you're downplaying it...

As if there was any question as to why


I still do not know what either of you are implying....and your weak passive aggressive comment made it no more clear.


The brown groups should get taken down but not whitey #MAGA
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:09 pm    Post subject:

Fake news seems to come from Trump and all of his team

very interesting

yet his followers still suckle up
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:51 pm    Post subject:

VA has the death penalty. Will be interesting to see if the driver gets it.
I'm personally against capital punishment. But the driver of that car is testing my convictions.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:05 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
VA has the death penalty. Will be interesting to see if the driver gets it.
I'm personally against capital punishment. But the driver of that car is testing my convictions.


Not on the second degree murder charge he was given, which is BS. It should be murder in the first degree, with special circumstances - this man drove across stateliness with a premeditation to kill multiple people.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:39 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
kikanga wrote:
VA has the death penalty. Will be interesting to see if the driver gets it.
I'm personally against capital punishment. But the driver of that car is testing my convictions.


Not on the second degree murder charge he was given, which is BS. It should be murder in the first degree, with special circumstances - this man drove across stateliness with a premeditation to kill multiple people.


Wow. I'm speechless.
I hope he gets the max for 2nd degree in VA (40 years). If he gets anywhere near the minimum (5 years). I imagine there will be alot of unhappy campers.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:39 pm    Post subject:

From Jim Wright, a blogger and an admired veteran of the US Navy:

I keep trying to get to a point in this insanity where I can write a piece, but it's all going sideways

So, instead, some observations:

- (bleep) racist terrorists. This isn't free speech. You don't bring guns, clubs, torches, and shields to peaceful demonstration. This is terrorism. These people are terrorists. A car just plowed into a crowd of anti-racist protesters. I've watched the video. It was deliberate. It was attempted murder. This is terrorism and should be called such. So far as a I know, the terrorists have not been caught yet. (bleep) those cowards.

- (bleep) the Confederacy. Every symbol of the Confederacy, every monument, every flag, every statue, should be pulled down, uprooted, smashed into rubble, and burned. (bleep) Robert E. Lee, he was a traitor, pull down his statue, melt it down, recast it into urinals. Piss on the Confederacy.

- (bleep) Nazis. I don't want to hear any social justice warrior (bleep) about not confronting these racist (bleep) with violence if necessary. They get punched in the head, they take a lead pipe over the skull, well it just plain sucks to be a Nazi. I'm not going to sugar coat that for you. Nazis are Nazis, they deserve nothing but a boot in their yellow teeth and punch in the throat. They're getting off easy. Our grandfathers hunted Nazis down and EXTERMINATED them and it's to our everlasting shame that we let this cancer regrow in our midst. (bleep) Nazis.

- (bleep) Trump. Trump owns this. Republicans own this. This isn't the Alt-Right, this IS the right. These sons of (bleep) are literally shouting "Sieg Trump" in the streets of Charlottesville right now. (bleep) Trump.

These people are the vile residue, the foul distillation, of every failed hateful rotten-tooth inbred ideology in history. Don't let them hide. Don't make excuses for them. Get them out in the open. Make them own it. They have jobs -- some of them. They have parents and kids and neighbors. They have churches. The Constitution gives them a right to their hate, but not a right to be free of the consequences. Publish their pictures. Publish their license plates. Get them out in the open. Pull their hoods off. They're standing out there shouting hate, flying the flag of treason, their arms upraised in the Hitler salute. Make them own it. Make them infamous. Don't let them hide.

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And everything you built thatís all for show goes up in flames
In 24 frames


Jason Isbell
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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:41 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
kikanga wrote:
VA has the death penalty. Will be interesting to see if the driver gets it.
I'm personally against capital punishment. But the driver of that car is testing my convictions.


Not on the second degree murder charge he was given, which is BS. It should be murder in the first degree, with special circumstances - this man drove across stateliness with a premeditation to kill multiple people.


Wow. I'm speechless.
I hope he gets the max for 2nd degree in VA (40 years). If he gets anywhere near the minimum (5 years). I imagine there will be alot of unhappy campers.


There is discussion that he may be charged with civil rights violations as well, but that is still far short of the terrorism charges he should be facing.
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You thought God was an architect, now you know
Heís something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built thatís all for show goes up in flames
In 24 frames


Jason Isbell
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kikanga
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:43 pm    Post subject:

Trump when talking about Islamic extremists:
Quote:
The other thing with the terrorists is you have to take out their families, when you get these terrorists, you have to take out their families. They care about their lives, don't kid yourself. When they say they don't care about their lives, you have to take out their families


Huge difference from his comments today.
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ContagiousInspiration
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:46 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
He was the primary Birther and has done everything possible to erase Obama from the history books. BUT IT'S ALL A BIG COINCIDENCE THAT OBAMA IS BLACK?

No.


I agree being an opportunist and being a racist are not mutually exclusive. I also agree he could very well hold racist beliefs. Still, this last point of yours fits within the narrative I'm describing as much as it does your argument he is a racist.

Honestly, if he's not a racist, I actually think the fact he takes advantage of racism to gain an advantage is even worse. In some ways, at least a racist lives by principles. I'm saying Trump has none at all, except self-promotion. If he could get away with it, I'd guess Trump would commit murder if it helped him. He's a dumber and more fragile version of Frank Underwood.


I have posted about this man a lot but..
Trumps Butler for ..... 18..... years
https://www.google.com/search?q=Anthony+Senecal+racist

birds of a feather....
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