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ContagiousInspiration
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ContagiousInspiration
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Joined: 07 May 2014
Posts: 13823
Location: Boulder ;)
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 Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| non-player zealot wrote: | | governator wrote: | “I own actually one of the largest wineries in the United States," Trump said after a press conference at Trump Tower in New York. “It is in Charlottesville."
Former basketball player Steve Nash wasn't fond of the President promoting the winery after the presser.
"To defend white supremacists and then slang his sh---y a-- grape juice pretty much sums the man up," Nash tweeted. |
His best play since becoming a Laker. |
The winery Donald Trump claims to own has denied having anything to do with him
https://www.indy100.com/article/charlottesville-winery-donald-trump-eric-trump-7895896? |
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rwongega
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | | I think there is a place for confederate monuments and museums, the same way there is a place for holocaust memorials... not to celebrate these events, but as a tale of warnings so that we never forget and we never repeat these mistakes. The problem is that these groups look to celebrate an era of slavery and treason because its the America they wish we could go back to, and, of course, the right talking points refuse to acknowledge this distinction lest offend the conservative base. |
There's a place for acknowledging the history of this country. It's in history books and museums. But in no way should there be monuments designed to dignify those who engaged in an insurrection meant to dismantle and divide the nation in the parks and streets of this country. I mean can you imagine statues of Hitler and Goebbels scattered around Germany? Seriously, Germany had the good sense to outlaw even the flashing the "Seig Heil" arm extension or the display of Nazi symbols. We should expect no less from ourselves as a nation in regards to our own sordid past. |
Japan actually does that with their war criminals. Just an aside note.
But regarding monuments, I agree. If the purpose of the monuments were to celebrate a wrongful past, then they should be torn down. Otherwise, put them in a museum where people can learn that while some soldier's actions were honorable in war, the cause they fought for was still wrong.
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Buck32
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| rwongega wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | | I think there is a place for confederate monuments and museums, the same way there is a place for holocaust memorials... not to celebrate these events, but as a tale of warnings so that we never forget and we never repeat these mistakes. The problem is that these groups look to celebrate an era of slavery and treason because its the America they wish we could go back to, and, of course, the right talking points refuse to acknowledge this distinction lest offend the conservative base. |
There's a place for acknowledging the history of this country. It's in history books and museums. But in no way should there be monuments designed to dignify those who engaged in an insurrection meant to dismantle and divide the nation in the parks and streets of this country. I mean can you imagine statues of Hitler and Goebbels scattered around Germany? Seriously, Germany had the good sense to outlaw even the flashing the "Seig Heil" arm extension or the display of Nazi symbols. We should expect no less from ourselves as a nation in regards to our own sordid past. |
Japan actually does that with their war criminals. Just an aside note.
But regarding monuments, I agree. If the purpose of the monuments were to celebrate a wrongful past, then they should be torn down. Otherwise, put them in a museum where people can learn that while some soldier's actions were honorable in war, the cause they fought for was still wrong. |
This sums it up about the fraud that is Robert E. Lee
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ocho
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:28 am Post subject: |
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CBS Poll: 67% of GOP voters approve of Trump's response to Charlottesville.
LINK
He is them and they are him.
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| The same people who claim Confederate monuments honor our past are the same who protested having a mosque near "Ground Zero", because it was a disgusting slap in the face of all those who died on 9/11. What would be their response if a monument of the 9/11 highjackers were erected there? You know, just so we don't forget that it happened. |
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Huey Lewis & The News
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Location: So what's the uh...topic of discussion?
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | The same people who claim Confederate monuments honor our past are the same who protested having a mosque near "Ground Zero", because it was a disgusting slap in the face of all those who died on 9/11. What would be their response if a monument of the 9/11 highjackers were erected there? You know, just so we don't forget that it happened. |
I've always laughed at the portrayal of these mopes as mere history/southern pride/statue enthusiasts. Not one of these goosestepping (bleep) sticks would rally for a statue of a true American hero from the south like Martin Luther King. Enough of this, please.
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20,000
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| ContagiousInspiration wrote: | | non-player zealot wrote: | | governator wrote: | “I own actually one of the largest wineries in the United States," Trump said after a press conference at Trump Tower in New York. “It is in Charlottesville."
Former basketball player Steve Nash wasn't fond of the President promoting the winery after the presser.
"To defend white supremacists and then slang his sh---y a-- grape juice pretty much sums the man up," Nash tweeted. |
His best play since becoming a Laker. |
The winery Donald Trump claims to own has denied having anything to do with him
https://www.indy100.com/article/charlottesville-winery-donald-trump-eric-trump-7895896? |
Aside from admitting he is pro-white nationalists, has that man ever said anything truthful?
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Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying...'I will try again tomorrow.' |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | CBS Poll: 67% of GOP voters approve of Trump's response to Charlottesville.
LINK
He is them and they are him. |
When I said after the election it was primarily about racism and sexism, I got killed here for MONTHS. I posted study after study delving into the statistics, I was told they were liberal garbage. I was told people voted for him for economic reasons and the race stuff was just coincidental. I posted articles with analysis showing the primary mover was "racial & cultural anxiety" not "economic anxiety." I was told I was being unfair to people who only voted for their party affiliation, not racist policies.
Okay, now what? |
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20,000
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| SweetP wrote: | | Huey Lewis & The News wrote: | | What do you all think about "sanctuary" cities? |
They usually have good restaurants. |
And many people from various countries working really hard to make sure the food and service is top-notch
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Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying...'I will try again tomorrow.' |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| encina1 wrote: | | ContagiousInspiration wrote: | | non-player zealot wrote: | | governator wrote: | “I own actually one of the largest wineries in the United States," Trump said after a press conference at Trump Tower in New York. “It is in Charlottesville."
Former basketball player Steve Nash wasn't fond of the President promoting the winery after the presser.
"To defend white supremacists and then slang his sh---y a-- grape juice pretty much sums the man up," Nash tweeted. |
His best play since becoming a Laker. |
The winery Donald Trump claims to own has denied having anything to do with him
https://www.indy100.com/article/charlottesville-winery-donald-trump-eric-trump-7895896? |
Aside from admitting he is pro-white nationalists, has that man ever said anything truthful? |
| Quote: | Trump: Yeah, that’s her. With the gold. I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.
Bush: Whatever you want.
Trump: Grab ’em by the (bleep). You can do anything. |
| Quote: | “Before a show, I’ll go backstage and everyone’s getting dressed, and everything else, and you know, no men are anywhere, and I’m allowed to go in because I’m the owner of the pageant and therefore I’m inspecting it,” he said. “You know, I’m inspecting because I want to make sure that everything is good.”
“You know, they’re standing there with no clothes. ‘Is everybody okay?’” he continued. “And you see these incredible looking women, and so, I sort of get away with things like that.” |
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governator
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| encina1 wrote: | | ContagiousInspiration wrote: | | non-player zealot wrote: | | governator wrote: | “I own actually one of the largest wineries in the United States," Trump said after a press conference at Trump Tower in New York. “It is in Charlottesville."
Former basketball player Steve Nash wasn't fond of the President promoting the winery after the presser.
"To defend white supremacists and then slang his sh---y a-- grape juice pretty much sums the man up," Nash tweeted. |
His best play since becoming a Laker. |
The winery Donald Trump claims to own has denied having anything to do with him
https://www.indy100.com/article/charlottesville-winery-donald-trump-eric-trump-7895896? |
Aside from admitting he is pro-white nationalists, has that man ever said anything truthful? |
he's prob slips the truth regarding still owning his 'full of conflict of interests' businesses... Now the company lawyer has to re-iterate that Donald Trump has 'divest' and not involved in company |
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governator
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:01 am Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | | ocho wrote: | CBS Poll: 67% of GOP voters approve of Trump's response to Charlottesville.
LINK
He is them and they are him. |
When I said after the election it was primarily about racism and sexism, I got killed here for MONTHS. I posted study after study delving into the statistics, I was told they were liberal garbage. I was told people voted for him for economic reasons and the race stuff was just coincidental. I posted articles with analysis showing the primary mover was "racial & cultural anxiety" not "economic anxiety." I was told I was being unfair to people who only voted for their party affiliation, not racist policies.
Okay, now what? |
You're partially right. I didn't expect republicans/conservatives to let Trump get this bad/racist.
But it is still hard to digest that coworkers, friends, neighbors and some family members (thank god not immediate) supported/voted/still supporting Trump... I know these people for years and in daily life they're not racist except for this supporting Trump stuff |
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20,000
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:05 am Post subject: |
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The Federalist, a right-leaning online publication, has turned on Trump
| Quote: | | He is also working to destroy and discredit the American Right, pitting us against one another in vicious internecine arguments. Right now there are otherwise good people who, out of partisan habits or long-borne outrage at biased media, are trying to concoct excuses for why Trump’s Q&A wasn’t so bad and all the criticisms of it are just fake news. |
| Quote: | Who told Donald Trump these weren’t Nazis?
No, seriously, who told him? Before leaping to the defense of all of the “fine people” marching shoulder to shoulder with Nazis, Trump made a big production over the fact that he had waited to speak until he had painstakingly gathered the facts. He used the word “facts” about 15 times in the minute prior to this statement. So from what reliable report, or from which of his advisors, did he get the talking point about how these were just ordinary, upstanding citizens concerned about a statue? What was his source for this “fact”?
The only people I’ve heard trying to make that claim are—you guessed it—the white nationalists who organized the rally. We’ve had inklings before that Trump picks up fake news and conspiracy theories from the Internet and retweets rumors in his Twitter feed, and also that he and his people pick up memes that come through the pipeline of the racist alt-right. (Remember the “sheriff’s star”?) It looks like that’s happening again, while he is president, and in response to a case in which he is specifically called upon to show that this odious faction does not have his ear.
So we can only conclude that they do have his ear. |
| Quote: | | We’re done with the “Well, maybe it won’t be so bad and we should take what we can get” phase of this administration. It’s time for the “He’s a disaster and needs to go” phase. For everybody’s good, Donald Trump needs to not be president, and he needs to not be president yesterday. |
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Courage doesn't always roar.
Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying...'I will try again tomorrow.' |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | ocho wrote: | CBS Poll: 67% of GOP voters approve of Trump's response to Charlottesville.
LINK
He is them and they are him. |
When I said after the election it was primarily about racism and sexism, I got killed here for MONTHS. I posted study after study delving into the statistics, I was told they were liberal garbage. I was told people voted for him for economic reasons and the race stuff was just coincidental. I posted articles with analysis showing the primary mover was "racial & cultural anxiety" not "economic anxiety." I was told I was being unfair to people who only voted for their party affiliation, not racist policies.
Okay, now what? |
You're partially right. I didn't expect republicans/conservatives to let Trump get this bad/racist.
But it is still hard to digest that coworkers, friends, neighbors and some family members (thank god not immediate) supported/voted/still supporting Trump... I know these people for years and in daily life they're not racist except for this supporting Trump stuff |
And a country full of decent Germans weren't racist except for supporting that Hitler guy.
Look, I'm not saying Trump is Hitler (yet), but this is how it starts. People looking the other way when they know it's wrong is bad enough. But they are AFFIRMATIVELY choosing to still support someone who is racist and is implementing racist policies. There are no innocent bystanders here anymore. There are no illusions. Pick a side. If they pick the White Supremacist side, vote for it and fund it, they can't claim with any validity that they're "not a racist," NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO IN THEIR PERSONAL LIFE. They are voting to inflict harm on people of other races and faiths. That's racism. |
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20,000
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:28 am Post subject: |
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Southern Pocerty Law Center: Ten Ways to Fight Hate
In case anyone had missed this.
| Quote: | 1. Act
2. Join Forces
3. Support the Victims
4. Speak Up
5. Educate Yourself
6. Create An Alternative
7. Pressure Leaders
8. Stay Engaged
9. Teach Acceptance
10. Dig Deeper |
More at the link
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Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying...'I will try again tomorrow.' |
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Buck32
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | CBS Poll: 67% of GOP voters approve of Trump's response to Charlottesville.
LINK
He is them and they are him. |
That's a lot of parents or future parents who will bring up new generations of Steve Bannons and Sean Hannity's.
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ocho
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I know these people for years and in daily life they're not racist except for this supporting Trump stuff |
That is a distinction no decent person gets to enjoy anymore, and polling suggests there never was a distinction to begin with.
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Fan0Bynum17
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:46 am Post subject: |
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I don't get why people are so confused as how the confederacy can be used as a symbol of southern pride. It was the only time the south was an actual entity of its own, defined officially, rather than an abstract region. It was a separate state that had its own government. I don't see why that's hard to understand, what else could represent the south as a whole? I know we think it represents slavery and racism, and it does in some contexts, but to think that's all it could possibly represent is fairly narrowminded. It's a (bleep) subjective symbol afterall, how can you just decisively declare it's X and only X.
Most of the south that fought in that war, if not the vast majority of it, weren't fighting for the battlecry of slavery. The way they saw it, they were just fighting for their culture from the oppression from outsiders. As inaccurate as you might think that is, that was probably the most common mindset, and a lot of these people's ancestors fought, suffered, and died due to that war, and they want to honor that. Is it other cultures' right to say that what their ancestors did was wrong and dishonorable just because of the side they had no choice of fighting on?
What are we trying to deny here by saying that monuments must be removed? That the confederacy ever existed? It did exist, and forcing down flags and monuments won't change that. |
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Huey Lewis & The News
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Location: So what's the uh...topic of discussion?
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | I don't get why people are so confused as how the confederacy can be used as a symbol of southern pride. It was the only time the south was an actual entity of its own, defined officially, rather than an abstract region. It was a separate state that had its own government. I don't see why that's hard to understand, what else could represent the south as a whole? I know we think it represents slavery and racism, and it does in some contexts, but to think that's all it could possibly represent is fairly narrowminded. It's a (bleep) subjective symbol afterall, how can you just decisively declare it's X and only X.
Most of the south that fought in that war, if not the vast majority of it, weren't fighting for the battlecry of slavery. The way they saw it, they were just fighting for their culture from the oppression from outsiders. As inaccurate as you might think that is, that was probably the most common mindset, and a lot of these people's ancestors fought, suffered, and died due to that war, and they want to honor that. Is it other cultures' right to say that what their ancestors did was wrong and dishonorable just because of the side they had no choice of fighting on?
What are we trying to deny here by saying that monuments must be removed? That the confederacy ever existed? It did exist, and forcing down flags and monuments won't change that. |
That's a great but_muh_cultural_pride.txt, but we as the United States of America shouldn't be concerned with the sanctimony of people who are still fighting the Civil War in their own emotions on our soil. If they want the privilege to hoist their emotionally important enemy flags and statues within this nation's borders, maybe they could secede again, try their luck in taking it by force, and we can all re-enact the war like they love to do, but with live rounds, and the same result.
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governator
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| Huey Lewis & The News wrote: | | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | I don't get why people are so confused as how the confederacy can be used as a symbol of southern pride. It was the only time the south was an actual entity of its own, defined officially, rather than an abstract region. It was a separate state that had its own government. I don't see why that's hard to understand, what else could represent the south as a whole? I know we think it represents slavery and racism, and it does in some contexts, but to think that's all it could possibly represent is fairly narrowminded. It's a (bleep) subjective symbol afterall, how can you just decisively declare it's X and only X.
Most of the south that fought in that war, if not the vast majority of it, weren't fighting for the battlecry of slavery. The way they saw it, they were just fighting for their culture from the oppression from outsiders. As inaccurate as you might think that is, that was probably the most common mindset, and a lot of these people's ancestors fought, suffered, and died due to that war, and they want to honor that. Is it other cultures' right to say that what their ancestors did was wrong and dishonorable just because of the side they had no choice of fighting on?
What are we trying to deny here by saying that monuments must be removed? That the confederacy ever existed? It did exist, and forcing down flags and monuments won't change that. |
That's a great but_muh_cultural_pride.txt, but we as the United States of America shouldn't be concerned with the sanctimony of people who are still fighting the Civil War in their own emotions on our soil. If they want the privilege to hoist their emotionally important enemy flags and statues within this nation's borders, maybe they could secede again, try their luck in taking it by force, and we can all re-enact the war like they love to do, but with live rounds, and the same result. |
| LakerSanity wrote: | | I think there is a place for confederate monuments and museums, the same way there is a place for holocaust memorials... not to celebrate these events, but as a tale of warnings so that we never forget and we never repeat these mistakes. The problem is that these groups look to celebrate an era of slavery and treason because its the America they wish we could go back to, and, of course, the right talking points refuse to acknowledge this distinction lest offend the conservative base. |
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20,000
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | I don't get why people are so confused as how the confederacy can be used as a symbol of southern pride. It was the only time the south was an actual entity of its own, defined officially, rather than an abstract region. It was a separate state that had its own government. I don't see why that's hard to understand, what else could represent the south as a whole? I know we think it represents slavery and racism, and it does in some contexts, but to think that's all it could possibly represent is fairly narrowminded. It's a (bleep) subjective symbol afterall, how can you just decisively declare it's X and only X.
Most of the south that fought in that war, if not the vast majority of it, weren't fighting for the battlecry of slavery. The way they saw it, they were just fighting for their culture from the oppression from outsiders. As inaccurate as you might think that is, that was probably the most common mindset, and a lot of these people's ancestors fought, suffered, and died due to that war, and they want to honor that. Is it other cultures' right to say that what their ancestors did was wrong and dishonorable just because of the side they had no choice of fighting on?
What are we trying to deny here by saying that monuments must be removed? That the confederacy ever existed? It did exist, and forcing down flags and monuments won't change that. |
It is a symbol to secede from the Union.
It is a symbol to disavow the Constitution.
It is a symbol that was fighting to reinforce and save slavery. True, not everyone who fought owned slaves, but it was fighting to support the right to keep slaves.
It was and is growing to be a symbol of anti-foreign anti-intellectual anti-Jew anti-black sentiment.
It is a symbol of war and fighting. That is what the flag is.
There are many ways to show pride in culture without using that particular symbol, marching with tiki torches while chanting "Jew will not replace us." You can make the argument that it means more, but it has been co-opted and so marred with the hate and vile it can not mean anything else.
The swastika is an ancient symbol seen in Indian and Greek and many other cultural relics. But it was taken over by the Nazis of Germany and now means nothing else at first glance. There is no taking it back. It is ruined.
You can show pride in your ancestors for being them, but when you make it about the slave owning and slave pushing generals who wanted to keep minorities down at all costs, then you have crossed a line. It's not even the same discussion anymore.
_________________
Courage doesn't always roar.
Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying...'I will try again tomorrow.' |
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tlim
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Posts: 6649
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| encina1 wrote: | | ContagiousInspiration wrote: | | non-player zealot wrote: | | governator wrote: | “I own actually one of the largest wineries in the United States," Trump said after a press conference at Trump Tower in New York. “It is in Charlottesville."
Former basketball player Steve Nash wasn't fond of the President promoting the winery after the presser.
"To defend white supremacists and then slang his sh---y a-- grape juice pretty much sums the man up," Nash tweeted. |
His best play since becoming a Laker. |
The winery Donald Trump claims to own has denied having anything to do with him
https://www.indy100.com/article/charlottesville-winery-donald-trump-eric-trump-7895896? |
Aside from admitting he is pro-white nationalists, has that man ever said anything truthful? |
Article says it was handed over to Eric Trump. So yes, owned by him because things like that stay in the family. |
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Huey Lewis & The News
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Joined: 18 Dec 2015
Posts: 5234
Location: So what's the uh...topic of discussion?
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: |
| LakerSanity wrote: | | I think there is a place for confederate monuments and museums, the same way there is a place for holocaust memorials... not to celebrate these events, but as a tale of warnings so that we never forget and we never repeat these mistakes. |
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Nobody needs public statues to remember, or to avoid a Civil War or federally sanctioned slavery. We especially don't need those statues.
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"All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers."
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Fan0Bynum17
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| encina1 wrote: | | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | I don't get why people are so confused as how the confederacy can be used as a symbol of southern pride. It was the only time the south was an actual entity of its own, defined officially, rather than an abstract region. It was a separate state that had its own government. I don't see why that's hard to understand, what else could represent the south as a whole? I know we think it represents slavery and racism, and it does in some contexts, but to think that's all it could possibly represent is fairly narrowminded. It's a (bleep) subjective symbol afterall, how can you just decisively declare it's X and only X.
Most of the south that fought in that war, if not the vast majority of it, weren't fighting for the battlecry of slavery. The way they saw it, they were just fighting for their culture from the oppression from outsiders. As inaccurate as you might think that is, that was probably the most common mindset, and a lot of these people's ancestors fought, suffered, and died due to that war, and they want to honor that. Is it other cultures' right to say that what their ancestors did was wrong and dishonorable just because of the side they had no choice of fighting on?
What are we trying to deny here by saying that monuments must be removed? That the confederacy ever existed? It did exist, and forcing down flags and monuments won't change that. |
It is a symbol to secede from the Union.
It is a symbol to disavow the Constitution.
It is a symbol that was fighting to reinforce and save slavery. True, not everyone who fought owned slaves, but it was fighting to support the right to keep slaves.
It was and is growing to be a symbol of anti-foreign anti-intellectual anti-Jew anti-black sentiment.
It is a symbol of war and fighting. That is what the flag is.
There are many ways to show pride in culture without using that particular symbol, marching with tiki torches while chanting "Jew will not replace us." You can make the argument that it means more, but it has been co-opted and so marred with the hate and vile it can not mean anything else.
The swastika is an ancient symbol seen in Indian and Greek and many other cultural relics. But it was taken over by the Nazis of Germany and now means nothing else at first glance. There is no taking it back. It is ruined.
You can show pride in your ancestors for being them, but when you make it about the slave owning and slave pushing generals who wanted to keep minorities down at all costs, then you have crossed a line. It's not even the same discussion anymore. |
The context matters. |
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