Joined: 18 Dec 2015 Posts: 5234 Location: So what's the uh...topic of discussion?
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:21 am Post subject:
Gen. Lee, in the meantime, stood by, and frequently enjoined Williams to "lay it on well," an injunction which he did not fail to heed; not satisfied with simply lacerating our naked flesh, Gen. Lee then ordered the overseer to thoroughly wash our backs with brine, which was done.'
As an undocumented (documented now), mexican kid that went through the compton public school system, it's heartwarming to see people openly expressing that immigrants need some types of rights.
Ironically, i also wish our own communities did more to encourage immigrants to be a positive influence in a country we came to ILLEGALLY. Fills me with emotion to see immigrants who do indeed commit crimes, or abuse the system.
How do you think the path to legalization should be? assuming once you have passed background check.
As an undocumented (documented now), mexican kid that went through the compton public school system, it's heartwarming to see people openly expressing that immigrants need some types of rights.
Ironically, i also wish our own communities did more to encourage immigrants to be a positive influence in a country we came to ILLEGALLY. Fills me with emotion to see immigrants who do indeed commit crimes, or abuse the system.
How do you think the path to legalization should be? assuming once you have passed background check.
10 years of paying an income tax at the top nominal rate(does not need to have a job continuously, but must fullfill requirements within 15 years), no crimes whatsoever misdemeanor or felony. Felony/misdemeanor gets you kicked out. During this interim period if you decide to have children they are not US citizens until you yourself have earned citizenship. Cannot use any form of governmental financial assistance until citizenship earned. _________________ "It was tough," Kobe Bryant said. "But when it got really tough for me, I just checked myself in."
Last edited by Raijin on Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:34 am; edited 3 times in total
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 Posts: 46878 Location: Coming soon and striking at your borders.
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:28 am Post subject:
Fan0Bynum17 wrote:
encina1 wrote:
Fan0Bynum17 wrote:
I don't get why people are so confused as how the confederacy can be used as a symbol of southern pride. It was the only time the south was an actual entity of its own, defined officially, rather than an abstract region. It was a separate state that had its own government. I don't see why that's hard to understand, what else could represent the south as a whole? I know we think it represents slavery and racism, and it does in some contexts, but to think that's all it could possibly represent is fairly narrowminded. It's a (bleep) subjective symbol afterall, how can you just decisively declare it's X and only X.
Most of the south that fought in that war, if not the vast majority of it, weren't fighting for the battlecry of slavery. The way they saw it, they were just fighting for their culture from the oppression from outsiders. As inaccurate as you might think that is, that was probably the most common mindset, and a lot of these people's ancestors fought, suffered, and died due to that war, and they want to honor that. Is it other cultures' right to say that what their ancestors did was wrong and dishonorable just because of the side they had no choice of fighting on?
What are we trying to deny here by saying that monuments must be removed? That the confederacy ever existed? It did exist, and forcing down flags and monuments won't change that.
It is a symbol to secede from the Union.
It is a symbol to disavow the Constitution.
It is a symbol that was fighting to reinforce and save slavery. True, not everyone who fought owned slaves, but it was fighting to support the right to keep slaves.
It was and is growing to be a symbol of anti-foreign anti-intellectual anti-Jew anti-black sentiment.
It is a symbol of war and fighting. That is what the flag is.
There are many ways to show pride in culture without using that particular symbol, marching with tiki torches while chanting "Jew will not replace us." You can make the argument that it means more, but it has been co-opted and so marred with the hate and vile it can not mean anything else.
The swastika is an ancient symbol seen in Indian and Greek and many other cultural relics. But it was taken over by the Nazis of Germany and now means nothing else at first glance. There is no taking it back. It is ruined.
You can show pride in your ancestors for being them, but when you make it about the slave owning and slave pushing generals who wanted to keep minorities down at all costs, then you have crossed a line. It's not even the same discussion anymore.
The context matters.
"The context" of a lot of Confederate monuments is not historical importance, but political. A good number of them were put up long after the war (Some even during the Civil War era for obvious reasons). They aren't relics of the confederacy, they are Jim Crow Era propaganda. The Confederacy has been allowed to rewrite and whitewash its own history and intentions ( See the "Lost Cause" myth, the nonsense about "states rights", hell even General Grant's legacy is being revisited because of this).
They have no value in this society and never did. Unless its a historical battleground. Other than that, they're useless. For crying out loud, there are 700 confederate monuments. Do we really need that many? For all the talk of "We need to remember that or we'll repeat our mistakes" are asinine. We've already repeated the mistakes of the past, don't think so? Just watch the news. _________________ *sighs*
Yeah the Republicans are totally not racists _________________ "It was tough," Kobe Bryant said. "But when it got really tough for me, I just checked myself in."
Gen. Lee, in the meantime, stood by, and frequently enjoined Williams to "lay it on well," an injunction which he did not fail to heed; not satisfied with simply lacerating our naked flesh, Gen. Lee then ordered the overseer to thoroughly wash our backs with brine, which was done.'
In regards to Lee, it's difficult to separate fact from fiction. Part of the Lost Cause narrative cast him as a reluctant slave owner and reluctant member of the rebellion, yet evidence does exist that he did own slaves, had no compunction about breaking up families, and reneged on a promise made by his father-in-law to set them free upon his (the father-in-laws) death. And yes, he may have actually been the principal behind the whipping of slaves who were angry at having that promise broken. In terms of being reluctant to break away from the Union, there were plenty of Southerners in the military who left the South and joined or stayed with the Federal forces.
I've always felt that Lee rationalized slavery, that though he realized it was undeniably evil, it served his personal interests well. They helped him to make a tidy profit, that slaves were better off in the US than in Africa, and that it was up to God to emancipate them. That's a pretty self-serving view, but that is the selfishness of having intellect, in that intelligent people warp morality to fit their self-interest.
He was also a pretty damn good military leader, but even that has been exaggerated to mythological levels.
As an undocumented (documented now), mexican kid that went through the compton public school system, it's heartwarming to see people openly expressing that immigrants need some types of rights.
Ironically, i also wish our own communities did more to encourage immigrants to be a positive influence in a country we came to ILLEGALLY. Fills me with emotion to see immigrants who do indeed commit crimes, or abuse the system.
How do you think the path to legalization should be? assuming once you have passed background check.
10 years of paying an income tax at the top nominal rate(does not need to have a job continuously, but must fullfill requirements within 15 years), no crimes whatsoever misdemeanor or felony. Felony/misdemeanor gets you kicked out. During this interim period if you decide to have children they are not US citizens until you yourself have earned citizenship. Cannot use any form of governmental financial assistance until citizenship earned.
yeah, have plenty of friends in west coast and east coast that are undocumented. Mostly from asia, almost always overstays their visa (tourist/student) then work. A lot of them works in the fast food court in malls (there's agents who place them in malls from LA to Riverside). Typical work week: 10 hours daily for either 5 or 6 days a week. Fake SS and their income get taxed. Almost all of them would love to have a path to legalization via paying fees/$.
As an undocumented (documented now), mexican kid that went through the compton public school system, it's heartwarming to see people openly expressing that immigrants need some types of rights.
Ironically, i also wish our own communities did more to encourage immigrants to be a positive influence in a country we came to ILLEGALLY. Fills me with emotion to see immigrants who do indeed commit crimes, or abuse the system.
How do you think the path to legalization should be? assuming once you have passed background check.
10 years of paying an income tax at the top nominal rate(does not need to have a job continuously, but must fullfill requirements within 15 years), no crimes whatsoever misdemeanor or felony. Felony/misdemeanor gets you kicked out. During this interim period if you decide to have children they are not US citizens until you yourself have earned citizenship. Cannot use any form of governmental financial assistance until citizenship earned.
yeah, have plenty of friends in west coast and east coast that are undocumented. Mostly from asia, almost always overstays their visa (tourist/student) then work. A lot of them works in the fast food court in malls (there's agents who place them in malls from LA to Riverside). Typical work week: 10 hours daily for either 5 or 6 days a week. Fake SS and their income get taxed. Almost all of them would love to have a path to legalization via paying fees/$.
What is your thought Marga86?
there should definitely be some path to legalization -- and i think it needs to start with doing good in school. There is no reason to keep an outstanding student (in my opinion) from at least having the ability to work legally in the states.
I basically agree with you, i knew several friends who went to college undocumented and the uncertainty of getting a job after graduation killed them because it could mean it was all for nothing. Having some sort of path guaranteed to you by graduating from college would go a long way.
As an undocumented (documented now), mexican kid that went through the compton public school system, it's heartwarming to see people openly expressing that immigrants need some types of rights.
Ironically, i also wish our own communities did more to encourage immigrants to be a positive influence in a country we came to ILLEGALLY. Fills me with emotion to see immigrants who do indeed commit crimes, or abuse the system.
How do you think the path to legalization should be? assuming once you have passed background check.
10 years of paying an income tax at the top nominal rate(does not need to have a job continuously, but must fullfill requirements within 15 years), no crimes whatsoever misdemeanor or felony. Felony/misdemeanor gets you kicked out. During this interim period if you decide to have children they are not US citizens until you yourself have earned citizenship. Cannot use any form of governmental financial assistance until citizenship earned.
yeah, have plenty of friends in west coast and east coast that are undocumented. Mostly from asia, almost always overstays their visa (tourist/student) then work. A lot of them works in the fast food court in malls (there's agents who place them in malls from LA to Riverside). Typical work week: 10 hours daily for either 5 or 6 days a week. Fake SS and their income get taxed. Almost all of them would love to have a path to legalization via paying fees/$.
What is your thought Marga86?
there should definitely be some path to legalization -- and i think it needs to start with doing good in school. There is no reason to keep an outstanding student (in my opinion) from at least having the ability to work legally in the states.
I basically agree with you, i knew several friends who went to college undocumented and the uncertainty of getting a job after graduation killed them because it could mean it was all for nothing. Having some sort of path guaranteed to you by graduating from college would go a long way.
yeah, Dreamers (under 18) should be allowed in public school then at 18 have a path to legalization
I don't get why people are so confused as how the confederacy can be used as a symbol of southern pride. It was the only time the south was an actual entity of its own, defined officially, rather than an abstract region. It was a separate state that had its own government. I don't see why that's hard to understand, what else could represent the south as a whole? I know we think it represents slavery and racism, and it does in some contexts, but to think that's all it could possibly represent is fairly narrowminded. It's a (bleep) subjective symbol afterall, how can you just decisively declare it's X and only X.
Most of the south that fought in that war, if not the vast majority of it, weren't fighting for the battlecry of slavery. The way they saw it, they were just fighting for their culture from the oppression from outsiders. As inaccurate as you might think that is, that was probably the most common mindset, and a lot of these people's ancestors fought, suffered, and died due to that war, and they want to honor that. Is it other cultures' right to say that what their ancestors did was wrong and dishonorable just because of the side they had no choice of fighting on?
What are we trying to deny here by saying that monuments must be removed? That the confederacy ever existed? It did exist, and forcing down flags and monuments won't change that.
What is the difference between 1850s Northern culture and 1850s Southern culture, besides slavery? Is the Confederacy a symbol of southern hospitality and sweet tea? I don't see why it would be.
We are denying that the confederacy should be honored in any shape or form. You want to memorialize it, then put it in a museum right next to the Holocaust memorials.
For tox and fanofbynum, most of the confederate monuments were not put up after the war, but rather much later, starting just before the turn of the century and into the 1920s. The largest purveyor of these monuments was the Daughters of the Confederacy, a very racist revisionist group that allied itself with the rise of the second KKK (which has the dubious honor of being even more violent than the first). They, along with the film Birth of a Nation, and other works such as the novel (and later film) Gone With The Wind, helped to create the concept of the Lost Cause, where the south was honorable and fighting for a just way of life, and slavery was a greater good (civilizing the savages).
This was the period of massive lynchings and the rise of Jim Crow, and most of these monuments were erectednat courthouses and public buildings and squares bith to perpetuate the myth and tondrive home the primacy of these folks. The monuments were put up in an explicitly white supremacist movement, and the concept spread outside the southern states.
Thanks Omar. I'm trying to come up with a charitable interpretation of why people would support Confederate monuments (and leaders) that doesn't have to do with supporting the racist ideology it represents, and I can't think of any. This context just makes it worse.
Misdemeanors should be at the discretion of an authority, whether its a prosecutor or judge or what not.
I don't think someone should be deported because they were caught with an open container celebrating in a park for the 4th of July or got caught once with a couple pills of ecstasy or a joint in non-decriminalized states.
I don't get why people are so confused as how the confederacy can be used as a symbol of southern pride. It was the only time the south was an actual entity of its own, defined officially, rather than an abstract region. It was a separate state that had its own government. I don't see why that's hard to understand, what else could represent the south as a whole? I know we think it represents slavery and racism, and it does in some contexts, but to think that's all it could possibly represent is fairly narrowminded. It's a (bleep) subjective symbol afterall, how can you just decisively declare it's X and only X.
Most of the south that fought in that war, if not the vast majority of it, weren't fighting for the battlecry of slavery. The way they saw it, they were just fighting for their culture from the oppression from outsiders. As inaccurate as you might think that is, that was probably the most common mindset, and a lot of these people's ancestors fought, suffered, and died due to that war, and they want to honor that. Is it other cultures' right to say that what their ancestors did was wrong and dishonorable just because of the side they had no choice of fighting on?
What are we trying to deny here by saying that monuments must be removed? That the confederacy ever existed? It did exist, and forcing down flags and monuments won't change that.
If it is just about southern pride, then they should change the flag to show they're distancing themselves from the racism/slavery part of it, because that is what the flag represents to a lot of people.
Flags change all the time with new iconography, so change that so we can visually see you're not about that aspect of the Confederacy, which is a large reason why the Confederacy was formed according to the Cornerstone speech.
If I were Southern I'd feel really ashamed about that particular element. I think everyone should have the right to fly whatever flag they want, but it reads racism/slavery to a lot of people.
Joined: 07 May 2014 Posts: 13823 Location: Boulder ;)
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:43 am Post subject:
Forcing down monuments of evil and diseased human hearts is bad?
I am a proponent of adding a required curriculum to all k-12
"Future Class"
Enough of this horrifying history..
HOW DO YOU want to live now
I am guessing the KKK were friendly to gays and jews and handicapped etc..
The civil war was fight to protect the right to own human lives? shouldn't that be enough to demand those peoples be relegated to the (bleep) books?
I don't think the guy in germany who did a sieg heil should have been punched but I do believe in their goals to remove the evils of their past
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90306 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:55 am Post subject:
tox wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
For tox and fanofbynum, most of the confederate monuments were not put up after the war, but rather much later, starting just before the turn of the century and into the 1920s. The largest purveyor of these monuments was the Daughters of the Confederacy, a very racist revisionist group that allied itself with the rise of the second KKK (which has the dubious honor of being even more violent than the first). They, along with the film Birth of a Nation, and other works such as the novel (and later film) Gone With The Wind, helped to create the concept of the Lost Cause, where the south was honorable and fighting for a just way of life, and slavery was a greater good (civilizing the savages).
This was the period of massive lynchings and the rise of Jim Crow, and most of these monuments were erectednat courthouses and public buildings and squares bith to perpetuate the myth and tondrive home the primacy of these folks. The monuments were put up in an explicitly white supremacist movement, and the concept spread outside the southern states.
Thanks Omar. I'm trying to come up with a charitable interpretation of why people would support Confederate monuments (and leaders) that doesn't have to do with supporting the racist ideology it represents, and I can't think of any. This context just makes it worse.
In fairness, there was a lot of romanticism of The Lost Cause to the point where you read things like, "they just want to preserve their culture", and, "they didn't fight for slavery (well, mostly, and not all of them)", and , "they are just remembering a time when they were and independent nation" from well-meaning people.
The problem is you can't separate the major elements of the culture from the culture, or the events from the history. We can no more celebrate the confederacy while excising the treason and the slavery than we can celebrate the third reich by excising the genocide and attack on other countries. But that's what has ultimately been done for a lot of people. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144464 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:10 pm Post subject:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Forcing down monuments of evil and diseased human hearts is bad?
I am a proponent of adding a required curriculum to all k-12
"Future Class"
Enough of this horrifying history..
HOW DO YOU want to live now
I am guessing the KKK were friendly to gays and jews and handicapped etc..
The civil war was fight to protect the right to own human lives? shouldn't that be enough to demand those peoples be relegated to the (bleep) books?
I don't think the guy in germany who did a sieg heil should have been punched but I do believe in their goals to remove the evils of their past
What good are those statues.. tell us that?
No, that wasn't why the Civil War was fought _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:12 pm Post subject:
Even as the White House is at extremely low approval ratings, the mid-terms is a numbers game where the the Democrats are almost certainly going to lose seats. As of today, the Republicans have a real chance at picking up enough seats to clear the 60 vote threshold.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144464 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:20 pm Post subject:
Omar Little wrote:
tox wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
For tox and fanofbynum, most of the confederate monuments were not put up after the war, but rather much later, starting just before the turn of the century and into the 1920s. The largest purveyor of these monuments was the Daughters of the Confederacy, a very racist revisionist group that allied itself with the rise of the second KKK (which has the dubious honor of being even more violent than the first). They, along with the film Birth of a Nation, and other works such as the novel (and later film) Gone With The Wind, helped to create the concept of the Lost Cause, where the south was honorable and fighting for a just way of life, and slavery was a greater good (civilizing the savages).
This was the period of massive lynchings and the rise of Jim Crow, and most of these monuments were erectednat courthouses and public buildings and squares bith to perpetuate the myth and tondrive home the primacy of these folks. The monuments were put up in an explicitly white supremacist movement, and the concept spread outside the southern states.
Thanks Omar. I'm trying to come up with a charitable interpretation of why people would support Confederate monuments (and leaders) that doesn't have to do with supporting the racist ideology it represents, and I can't think of any. This context just makes it worse.
In fairness, there was a lot of romanticism of The Lost Cause to the point where you read things like, "they just want to preserve their culture", and, "they didn't fight for slavery (well, mostly, and not all of them)", and , "they are just remembering a time when they were and independent nation" from well-meaning people.
The problem is you can't separate the major elements of the culture from the culture, or the events from the history. We can no more celebrate the confederacy while excising the treason and the slavery than we can celebrate the third reich by excising the genocide and attack on other countries. But that's what has ultimately been done for a lot of people.
Many Southerners are big on protecting their culture and way of life. Especially the area I used to live in, Acadiana, where the settlers were treated as criminals by the North and South. Slavery isn't something they celebrate. Food, clothing, the family structure, those are things they want to preserve. These Nazi groups do not reflect the typical Soutern native. Lumping them all into one stereotype is wrong. From my experience, the Klan was an underground group that the community shunned. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29330 Location: La La Land
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:23 pm Post subject:
adkindo wrote:
Even as the White House is at extremely low approval ratings, the mid-terms is a numbers game where the the Democrats are almost certainly going to lose seats. As of today, the Republicans have a real chance at picking up enough seats to clear the 60 vote threshold.
Ya. I think the Dems can gain seats in the House though. So that's the good news.
2018 impeachment! Then make all the GOP Senators vote. No more half ass denials and "distancing". And if they vote to keep Trump in office. They'll have to explain why to their constituencies. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Last edited by kikanga on Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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