He needs to resign. And on his way out he should make a statement encouraging the President to resign as well.
Then the Dems should move on and focus on the issues. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
He needs to resign. And on his way out he should make a statement encouraging the President to resign as well.
Then the Dems should move on and focus on the issues.
Given that his seat is pretty well safe to keep, Democrats ought to really think about how hard they want to continue supporting and excusing this guy. _________________ 14-5-3-12
He needs to resign. And on his way out he should make a statement encouraging the President to resign as well.
Then the Dems should move on and focus on the issues.
Given that his seat is pretty well safe to keep, Democrats ought to really think about how hard they want to continue supporting and excusing this guy.
If he resign, McConnell doesn’t get to pick a temp til 2018?
He needs to resign. And on his way out he should make a statement encouraging the President to resign as well.
Then the Dems should move on and focus on the issues.
Given that his seat is pretty well safe to keep, Democrats ought to really think about how hard they want to continue supporting and excusing this guy.
If he resign, McConnell doesn’t get to pick a temp til 2018?
No, the Minnesota governor would. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Glenn Thrush from NYT now accused by 4 women. sigh
This is obviously a MAN problem, not a left or right, or D or R, or Hollywood vs rural America problem.
The floodgates have opened. If the price is losing your job, and every woman comes forward, the unemployment rate is going to skyrocket. If every woman who has ever been groped by a House or Senate member comes forward, we'd probably lose half the Congress (which wouldn't be such a bad idea, hopefully to be replaced with more women).
Do the math. Every woman I know has been groped/touched/kissed without her permission. It wasn't just a handful of men. This is America's (and the world's) dirty little secret.
Glenn Thrush from NYT now accused by 4 women. sigh
This is obviously a MAN problem, not a left or right, or D or R, or Hollywood vs rural America problem.
The floodgates have opened. If the price is losing your job, and every woman comes forward, the unemployment rate is going to skyrocket. If every woman who has ever been groped by a House or Senate member comes forward, we'd probably lose half the Congress (which wouldn't be such a bad idea, hopefully to be replaced with more women).
Do the math. Every woman I know has been groped/touched/kissed without her permission. It wasn't just a handful of men. This is America's (and the world's) dirty little secret.
It's not Men = bad and Women= good.
It's:
some Men and Women = good
some Men and Women = bad
He needs to resign. And on his way out he should make a statement encouraging the President to resign as well.
Then the Dems should move on and focus on the issues.
Given that his seat is pretty well safe to keep, Democrats ought to really think about how hard they want to continue supporting and excusing this guy.
If he resign, McConnell doesn’t get to pick a temp til 2018?
No, the Minnesota governor would.
Mark Dayton is a Democrat. It's not looking good for Al.
I'm still not on the resign bus. Since Trump took office abuse has been put on front burner. Good, it may cause offenders to cease and desist, bad, it's a deflection from the country's real problem, Trump!
So much focus is on how women are being abused the tax reform is not getting the attention it needs. C'mon people multi function.
Men who abuse should be held accountable, it's important. What's also important is how Trump is moving the government to plutocracy.
Both are important. Take this as you choose, I think the latter deserves most attention. If Trump succeeds our very precious women will face the larger loss.
I said in a post way back, more women should become leaders. I was roasted. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:54 am; edited 2 times in total
Glenn Thrush from NYT now accused by 4 women. sigh
This is obviously a MAN problem, not a left or right, or D or R, or Hollywood vs rural America problem.
The floodgates have opened. If the price is losing your job, and every woman comes forward, the unemployment rate is going to skyrocket. If every woman who has ever been groped by a House or Senate member comes forward, we'd probably lose half the Congress (which wouldn't be such a bad idea, hopefully to be replaced with more women).
Do the math. Every woman I know has been groped/touched/kissed without her permission. It wasn't just a handful of men. This is America's (and the world's) dirty little secret.
It's not Men = bad and Women= good.
It's:
some Men and Women = good
some Men and Women = bad
He needs to resign. And on his way out he should make a statement encouraging the President to resign as well.
Then the Dems should move on and focus on the issues.
Given that his seat is pretty well safe to keep, Democrats ought to really think about how hard they want to continue supporting and excusing this guy.
If he resign, McConnell doesn’t get to pick a temp til 2018?
No, the Minnesota governor would.
Mark Dayton is a Democrat. It's not looking good for Al.
I'm still not on the resign bus. Since Trump took office abuse has been put on front burner. Good, it may cause offenders to cease and desist, bad, it's a deflection from the country's real problem, Trump!
So much focus is on how women are being abused the tax reform is not getting the attention it needs. C'mon people multi function.
Men who abuse should be held accountable, it's important. What's also important is how Trump is moving the government to plutocracy.
Both are important. Take this as you choose, I think the latter deserves most attention. If Trump succeeds our very precious women will face the larger loss.
I said in a post way back, more women should become leaders. I was roasted.
I feel similarly to you.
But in terms of the bolded statement I'm very precise with my words.
Is tax reform more important than the epidemic of sexual harassment in this country. NO. People's lives are permanently damaged by this behavior and it is a priority.
But is tax reform more important than specifically Al Franken's political career. YES. Most definitely.
That's why I'm on the resign bus. Do the 2 accusations compare to the 17 Trump has (including the raping of a minor)? NO.
But I still think he should resign. For the good of the country.
It shouldn't take 17 incidents for a person to resign. 1 is good enough. Especially when it has merit. And that's the message the Dems should send by having Franken resign. And for the record. Before all this. I was squarely in the Franken corner. I was a big fan. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
He needs to resign. And on his way out he should make a statement encouraging the President to resign as well.
Then the Dems should move on and focus on the issues.
Given that his seat is pretty well safe to keep, Democrats ought to really think about how hard they want to continue supporting and excusing this guy.
If he resign, McConnell doesn’t get to pick a temp til 2018?
No, the Minnesota governor would.
Mark Dayton is a Democrat. It's not looking good for Al.
I'm still not on the resign bus. Since Trump took office abuse has been put on front burner. Good, it may cause offenders to cease and desist, bad, it's a deflection from the country's real problem, Trump!
So much focus is on how women are being abused the tax reform is not getting the attention it needs. C'mon people multi function.
Men who abuse should be held accountable, it's important. What's also important is how Trump is moving the government to plutocracy.
Both are important. Take this as you choose, I think the latter deserves most attention. If Trump succeeds our very precious women will face the larger loss.
I said in a post way back, more women should become leaders. I was roasted.
I feel similarly to you.
But in terms of the bolded statement I'm very precise with my words.
Is tax reform more important than the epidemic of sexual harassment in this country. NO. People's lives are permanently damaged by this behavior and it is a priority.
But is tax reform more important than specifically Al Franken's political career. YES. Most definitely.
That's why I'm on the resign bus. Do the 2 accusations compare to the 17 Trump has (including the raping of a minor)? NO.
But I still think he should resign. For the good of the country.
It shouldn't take 17 incidents for a person to resign. 1 is good enough. Especially when it has merit. And that's the message the Dems should send by having Franken resign. And for the record. Before all this. I was squarely in the Franken corner. I was a big fan.
You're arguments are solid relating to Franken resigning. If he did, would others? I don't think so. You've put me on the fence. Why is it many good politicians are also womanizers?
Is this a epidemic or exposing a age old problem? It's not new it's finally something being given the attention it long deserved. It's been going on from the beginning of time.
Exposing abusers will be a benefit to women, the tax reform Trump wants may be detrimental to many people. Which is pragmatically more important? Hard choice? I left idealism at the door. I choose defeat Trumps tax bill. That's a problem that can be solved with the stroke of a pen, lets get it out of the way. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 6054 Location: My own little piece of reality
Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:50 pm Post subject:
ChefLinda wrote:
Glenn Thrush from NYT now accused by 4 women. sigh
This is obviously a MAN problem, not a left or right, or D or R, or Hollywood vs rural America problem.
The floodgates have opened. If the price is losing your job, and every woman comes forward, the unemployment rate is going to skyrocket. If every woman who has ever been groped by a House or Senate member comes forward, we'd probably lose half the Congress (which wouldn't be such a bad idea, hopefully to be replaced with more women).
Do the math. Every woman I know has been groped/touched/kissed without her permission. It wasn't just a handful of men. This is America's (and the world's) dirty little secret.
Not every man I know does this sort of behavior but every woman I know has had it happen to her. _________________ “There is always light if only we're brave enough to see it, if only we're brave enough to be it.” --Amanda Gorman
Glenn Thrush from NYT now accused by 4 women. sigh
This is obviously a MAN problem, not a left or right, or D or R, or Hollywood vs rural America problem.
The floodgates have opened. If the price is losing your job, and every woman comes forward, the unemployment rate is going to skyrocket. If every woman who has ever been groped by a House or Senate member comes forward, we'd probably lose half the Congress (which wouldn't be such a bad idea, hopefully to be replaced with more women).
Do the math. Every woman I know has been groped/touched/kissed without her permission. It wasn't just a handful of men. This is America's (and the world's) dirty little secret.
It's not Men = bad and Women= good.
It's:
some Men and Women = good
some Men and Women = bad
We're not talking about whether people are good or bad in general. We're talking about sexual harassment, sexual assault, sexual abuse. 96% of sexual abuse/assault is committed by MEN. Obviously, not all men do these behaviors, and there are some women who commit abuse. But the majority of perpetrators are MEN. Of course, it's also a cultural and socialization problem. If you want to know more, google it.
Federal Communications Commission Chairman Ajit Pai will reveal plans to his fellow commissioners on Tuesday to fully dismantle the agency's Obama-era net neutrality regulations, people familiar with the plans said, in a major victory for the telecom industry in the long-running policy debate.
This is so disgustingly anti-consumer. Despite massive public opposition to this Ajit Pai is going to push through with this. This is going to be a major blow to the free abs open internet as we know it. Honestly I don’t know what we do about it. They’ve heard the public opinion about this but they don’t give a (bleep) because Pai is bought and paid for just like every other (bleep) bag in the Trump regime. Unfortunately elections have consequences so here we are.
Great commentary on the Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast this week, as an impromptu follow-up discussion to their discussing the Facebook fact checking efforts. Nailed a lot of great points (sorry for the length).
Steve: …So that’s what we’re dealing with, and the editorial filters are not there. So I think we do need to keep experimenting with other mechanisms of either transparency or quality control, at the same time preserving the free flow of information. We also need to wrestle with the consequences of all this. Some people might argue that the freedom is worth it – that’s the price you pay for freedom, and that’s fine. Other people might argue that it’s a HUGE societal problem, because we don’t have any basis for shared, common facts. Everything is an alternative fact; everything you don’t like is fake news; there is no reality any more. That’s a recipe for totalitarianism – some people are beginning to question whether our democracy is sustainable without having a common source of information and facts that we can agree upon. That’s kind of an extreme view, but I think there’s reason to take it seriously, to an extent at least. We need to keep our eye on this, especially given what’s happened in this country over the last year.
Jay: Well, at least our government has its act together. [Laughter]
Steve: Did you guys see John Oliver’s last episode of the season?
Jay: Yeah, it was profoundly perfect. He summarizes the three things that Trump does to put up smoke screens, and take advantage of and manipulate those who listen to him. One of those things is being an expert troll – having trolling as a skill set like bow hunting skills, right? It’s a thing now. The next thing is “whataboutism.” If you get asked a direct question, you don’t answer it – instead you say, “What about Clinton? What about Obama? What about…blah, blah, blah.”
Evan: Misdirection, deflection.
Steve: Yeah, exactly. And the first one was delegitimizing the media. That’s the fake news thing. Anything you don’t like is fake news, so there is no legitimate information. And this IS how despots function, right? Because if you can control information, then how can anybody be held to account? Trump does use this to evade being held to account for the things that he says. Everything he says has built-in plausible deniability, because he’s so imprecise in how he speaks. And then when you call him on it, he wiggles out of it with all this false equivalency...”
Jay: Or you can interpret it any way you want.
Steve: So he’s communicating almost entirely in dog whistles – meaning that people hear what they want to hear, and he’s not held accountable for anything. There’s no facts, there’s no truth, there’s no reality, it’s all fake news, it’s all spin. And again, I feel compelled to say this whenever it comes up, because we’re not a political show – this is not about party, or tribalism, or politics. This is about the basics of our democracy, and the basics of truth. It’s about the basics of facts and reality. In a lot of ways I think the way that Trump and his supporters approach things is an assault on reason; it’s an assault on truth, on basic facts, on journalism, on transparency. Coming from the right or left, we would be against it. This transcends politics – it’s not about ideology at all. These are all tied together – the fake news on Facebook, and the way the current administration approaches information and social media. I do think he’s our first troll president – he basically trolled his way into the White House, and that’s scary. And when you listen to people who defend him – I’ve personally had online and personal conversations with people who defend him, and the chief thing they cite about what they like about him is that he makes so many people angry – “Oh look, he’s upsetting the media; he’s mixing things up.” They’re basically just championing him as a troll.
Jay: As a firebrand, yeah.
Steve: …Without appreciating what that really means.
Bob: Yeah, they like the chaos.
Evan: Or you can get lost in the chaos; it’s easy to maneuver in the chaos, and you can twist things to suit your goals, or your positions, your opinions…
Steve: If you’re angry or if you feel powerless, there’s a short term thrill to the chaos, but it’s not going to serve anyone.
Jay: Yeah, it’s the dark side of the force. It’s the easy quick way to power. And even though that’s funny, it’s the freaking truth. You have to get up early and work hard all day – that’s what being an adult means. You can’t just say what you want, when you want, without your words actually having meaning. Without there being legitimate intent behind it. That’s what we’re seeing with all the fake news and manipulation and lying. Steve made an essential point earlier – we’ve passed a barrier where we don’t even have a shared truth any more. We can’t even talk about science with respect – we’re questioning things that shouldn’t be questioned any more. When flat-Earth theory comes back with a vengeance, it’s a clear sign that we have a massive problem.
Steve: That’s not a coincidence either. It’s not a coincidence that something as patently absurd as thinking that the Earth is flat – and yes, people really do believe that, I have to say that every time as well – that that can flourish to the extent it has is also a phenomenon that’s related to all of this. That can only occur in a fake news, conspiracy mongering, nothing-is-real world. It’s growing in the environment in which people can actually believe that all scientists in the word are engaged in this conspiracy to convince us about the shape of the world. It’s absolutely amazing.
Bob: Can we actually roll things back from where they’ve escaped to? Can fake news ever truly be rolled back. Can we bring respect and legitimacy back to people’s understanding of science and their ability to accept this information as truth? Or is the genie out of the bottle, and it’s too late?
Steve: I think it’s too late, but not necessarily in a bad way. We can’t go backward – we can never go back. What we have to do is chart a course forward. We have to figure out where we go from here. I do think we can make things better, but it’s not going to be the way they were previously. We need new ways to make things function. Part of it is everything we’re trying to do – people need to be skeptical and critical thinkers. There’s no filter out there – we’re basically functioning without a net, which means everyone is on their own. We have to make a massive effort to teach the skills necessary to sort through all this by ourselves. But I do think we also need to think about what kind of infrastructure we can put in place that will help people with all that. I don’t think the editorial filters are coming back; I think we need to explore other ways of dealing with this issue. I don’t have the answer, I just think we need to really think about this, and experiment.
Joined: 30 Nov 2006 Posts: 33474 Location: Long Beach, California
Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:31 pm Post subject:
Basically, LC, we, whether individually or as a society, can no longer afford to be lazy thinkers. We all now must be cynical and critical of where we get our information and what the information we receive means. Those who simply want to be fed information will likely contribute to the destruction of our institutions and maybe democracy.
Good thing uninformed voters don't make up the majority of the voting public... oh... but... man, we're all so F******d.
Actually, I think there is another route. Its possible, in rebellion against asking us to actually work for trusted information, our laziness prevails and we demand more credible news sources. We stop watching sensationalist news and opinions masquerading as objective journalism. We demand from Fox, CNN, MSNBC and our local news broadcast to return to reliable fact-based journalism. Like when you go to a buffet and stuff yourself with junk, you suddenly crave something healthy and light. It's possible we may be coming to the end of this buffet. _________________ LakersGround's Terms of Service
I see a weakness in Democracy exploited by guile. Trump's using the god almighty dollar to foundation his agenda. As long as money is the reason, those who have it will dominate. How do we eliminate the need for it? Figure that out and become the worlds first trillionare.
It's a delicate balancing act between having total freedom, which enables narcissism, greed and selfishness, and true "democracy", which would mean some form of mild socialism because the state would have to intervene to ensure balance, which involves giving up some sense of liberty and autonomy. Both are inherent flawed. You can have liberty or security, but you can't have both at the same time. Eisenhower once noted that if what you really want is security, the best way to get it is being sent to prison (I'm paraphrasing).
Money and liberty are nice things, but they are also double edged swords.
Freedom is Americas foundation. Government is a necessity, it documents rules for fairness, peaceful existence.
Those with money controlling how things are done is not beneficial to the multitude, it's not democracy it's plutocracy.
Look around, people living countries with plutocratic, monarchical governments have very little say concerning their existence. This is why democracy is so feared by autocrats. Donald Trump is a dangerous person. He's taking America in that direction.
I have faith the worm will turn and we'll get back to basics. My displeasure is Trump will still be sitting in Trump Tower living the good life when it does.
Liberty and security are achievable if money is obliterated. Star Trek.
Freedom is absolutely our foundation. The downside to that is that it enables people to accumulate grotesque amounts of wealth, which then gives them the power and clout to influence politics by lobbying. Things like Citizens United and giving corporations the same legal status as people made it even worse.
Our Founding Fathers were libertarians by today's standards. A few of them probably gave lip service to the problems of too much wealth in too few hands but put no safeguards against that in place. We've seen exactly that gradually build up over the last 35 years, and now with Trump it seems like it's hit its apex. Unless perhaps Kanye West or one of the Kardashians even becomes president.
them getting those grotest amts of wealth they way they did get them is not actually about freedom. and no its not about a true free market. a truly free market would not have people lobbying to keep others out of the market. that happens all of the time.
That really hit home. Sometimes when I think about his cult followers I wonder if they realize the are cheering for Darth Vader. Maybe we need to call on the experts in cult deprogramming methods.
Quote:
Part of it is everything we’re trying to do – people need to be skeptical and critical thinkers. There’s no filter out there – we’re basically functioning without a net, which means everyone is on their own. We have to make a massive effort to teach the skills necessary to sort through all this by ourselves.
We need to teach children starting in elementary school, through high school and college, how to think for themselves. Teach them how to think critically and how to logically analyze any topic. I had many, many teachers do this for me in the L.A. public school system and at UCLA. Of course it also starts with parents placing value in reading and education.
Basically, LC, we, whether individually or as a society, can no longer afford to be lazy thinkers. We all now must be cynical and critical of where we get our information and what the information we receive means. Those who simply want to be fed information will likely contribute to the destruction of our institutions and maybe democracy.
Good thing uninformed voters don't make up the majority of the voting public... oh... but... man, we're all so F******d.
Yeah, I was making similar points a week or so ago when I was framing it in terms of evolution. There is now selective pressure to develop critical thinking skills, because as Steve put it, the editorial filters aren't there any more and they aren't coming back. What remains to be seen is how the species responds to this selective pressure -- by evolving, or by going extinct.
Quote:
Actually, I think there is another route. Its possible, in rebellion against asking us to actually work for trusted information, our laziness prevails and we demand more credible news sources. We stop watching sensationalist news and opinions masquerading as objective journalism. We demand from Fox, CNN, MSNBC and our local news broadcast to return to reliable fact-based journalism. Like when you go to a buffet and stuff yourself with junk, you suddenly crave something healthy and light. It's possible we may be coming to the end of this buffet.
Problem is, so many people are attracted to it and addicted to it -- it provides a high and a reassurance, just like a drug.
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Not every man I know does this sort of behavior but every woman I know has had it happen to her.
