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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:57 pm    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
See this is why Democrats stay losing. They're forcing out Franken and Conyers. Meanwhile, we have a (bleep) grabber in the White House, and Alabama is getting ready to send a pedophile to the United States Senate. In the minds of good Christians, a Pedophile is better than a Democrat. I don't know what planet y'all are on, but it ain't Earth. The gloves are off, and the only people who don't seem to understand that are Democrats. Stay losing, my friends.


The bolded is why, among many other reasons, I am a Democrat and not a Republican. I don't want to compromise who I am just to win. Still, we can have both - morals and success.

We can play on their field without compromising our values. Democrats aren't losing because they have morals, they are losing because they don't know how to brand the message or fight dirty.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:08 pm    Post subject:

Morals and Success???!!!! Where???!!! Not in 2017. Politics is a bloodsport now. You good Democrats can continue to kid yourself. The lack of a message isn't why we're losing. We're losing because we are perceived as WEAK. And as long as we're viewed as weak we will continue to lose because the game has changed and we won't accept it.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:12 pm    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
Morals and Success???!!!! Where???!!! Not in 2017. Politics is a bloodsport now. You good Democrats can continue to kid yourself. The lack of a message isn't why we're losing. We're losing because we are perceived as WEAK. And as long as we're viewed as weak we will continue to lose because the game has changed and we won't accept it.


Exactly, perception. Perception is not about your policies or actions, but how you communicate your message. Branding. You're advocating a party that makes different decisions, when that isn't the cause of the problem. The problem is perception and inability to project strength through communication/PR.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:20 pm    Post subject:

Fwiw, Franken ranked in the top 2-3 presidential candidates the GOP was most worried about, according to my source, and now they know they can take out any threat withba simple allegation campaign...

Btw, the first rule of power is that you cannot exercise power for good or evil unless you have it...
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:21 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
hoopschick29 wrote:
Morals and Success???!!!! Where???!!! Not in 2017. Politics is a bloodsport now. You good Democrats can continue to kid yourself. The lack of a message isn't why we're losing. We're losing because we are perceived as WEAK. And as long as we're viewed as weak we will continue to lose because the game has changed and we won't accept it.


Exactly, perception. Perception is not about your policies or actions, but how you communicate your message. Branding. You're advocating a party that makes different decisions, when that isn't the cause of the problem. The problem is perception and inability to project strength through communication/PR.


Here in lies the problem. Good Dems know what the problem is. You even know that you have to project strength through communication as you so eloquently put it. But Democrats are not willing to do what it takes to deliver that message. You don't want to get dirty. You don't want to roll up your sleeves or wrinkle up your nice slacks. You don't want to choke down the medicine that will solve your 'communication' problem.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:30 pm    Post subject:

Can we talk about the nuke the administration dropped in the middle East today?

These morons are just setting fires left and right.

Morbid prediction is at least 20 dead by the time I wake up in 11 hours followed by the idiot doubling down.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:31 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Fwiw, Franken ranked in the top 2-3 presidential candidates the GOP was most worried about, according to my source, and now they know they can take out any threat withba simple allegation campaign...

Btw, the first rule of power is that you cannot exercise power for good or evil unless you have it...


I am truly shocked and surprised you still support this guy.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:27 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Fwiw, Franken ranked in the top 2-3 presidential candidates the GOP was most worried about, according to my source, and now they know they can take out any threat withba simple allegation campaign...

Btw, the first rule of power is that you cannot exercise power for good or evil unless you have it...


I am truly shocked and surprised you still support this guy.


That's your prerogative, and I respect you as a friend and a person whose opinion I value. But there's a lot behind this that stinks to high heaven, and just as playing to right wing nationalist urges is easy, so is feeding the frenzy of a righteous mob mentality, and you guys are getting played imo.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:34 pm    Post subject:

At some point, you realize you are on a slippery slope and you need to stop in your tracks... and I'm not willing to save the couch at the cost of the home. Yes, its possible we may lose both in the long run, but that's the guaranteed outcome if we start compromising our policies just to win. Hard to come back from those depths even under the rationale of "we just need to do this for now until the ship is righted again." I think there is a way to both win while holding people accountable in the way they should be.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:36 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
At some point, you realize you are on a slippery slope... and I'm not willing to save the couch at the cost of the home. Yes, its possible we may lose both in the long run, but that's the outcome if we start compromising our policies just to win. I think there is a way to both win while holding people accountable in the way they should be.


I think the proper analogy might be saving the couch at the cost of the home...
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:39 pm    Post subject:

^Isn't that what I wrote? Or do you mean saving the house at the cost of the couch? I see the house as our values and the couch as winning in the moment. Short-term victories are temporary, principles are timeless and easily lost permanently once you start compromising on them.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:45 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
^Isn't that what I wrote? Or do you mean saving the house at the cost of the couch? I see the house as our values and the couch as winning in the moment. Short-term victories are temporary, principles are timeless and easily lost permanently once you start compromising on them.


Yeah, sorry, got your analogy backward.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:49 pm    Post subject:

Some NYT reader comments from the other side:

MSP Downingtown, PA 10 hours ago
So, Democrats are taking the moral high ground. Where does it get them when the other side flaunts its debauchery and hypocrisy, pushes the limits further, wins elections, and dismantles decades of progress. There's probably not a squeaky clean politician on any side. There's a continuum of bad behavior and the harm it has caused. Let's define it and move forward, because if Trump and Moore aren't standing aside, the Democrats will continue to fuel backlash. They will never win back seats if they eat their own.
--

Sandy CA 10 hours ago
I'm officially done. I will probably not vote again. What's the use? I vote a Democrat into the Senate and she turns around and does the Republicans' jobs for them. Last I checked accusation is not proof.
--

Rick Gage Mt Dora 9 hours ago
This false moral equivalence that the Democratic Senators are imposing on a man who has called for his own ethics inquiry so we can gauge the credibility of his accusers will not help in the greater attempt to shine a light on sexual harassers. It just trivializes the greater harm done to those with legitimate claims of forced intimacy and job discrimination. If they think using Sen. Franken as a sacrificial lamb will assuage the Republicans who are claiming this false equivalence they are surely mistaken. This makes them look panicked, unreasonable and reactionary. If the accusers were truly harmed I agree he should go but he has denied these claims and the Senators are calling for him to be burned at the stake before we know whether this is a witch hunt or not.
--

Gary Sloane
9 hours ago
Just a hypothetical question or two here:
What if the Senate Ethics Committee examines the allegations and Franken's behavior and issues a mild reprimand, or even "censure"? Does he still need to go? Should he be forced out before that can happen?
Where is the line between a dumb prank like the USO tour photo -- wrong, offensive, not funny -- and child molestation and other forms of actual sexual assault?
To me, there's a world of difference between the behavior of Al Franken and the likes of Donald Trump, Roy Moore or even, not to be partisan, Anthony Wiener.
--

Parker NY 9 hours ago
Did I miss something? Have the accusations escalated beyond insulting, immature behavior in public settings? This is what these senators find not merely worthy of condemnation but resignation? Good grief. Franken has been a remarkable public servant and we owe the Mueller investigative to his prescient questioning of Jeff Sessions. While I’d agree none of that would matter if he’d been revealed to be of low moral character, that is not the case here and has never been suggested. Bad behavior is equal to predation? There is no gray area, no rehabilitation, no apology suffices? This is extremism of the worst kind. I’m shocked that my senator and women I’ve long admired have revealed themselves to be either so simplistic or so politically craven.
--

NM NY 9 hours ago
The thing is, Franken has acknowledged, and apologized for, poor behavior and welcomed an Ethics Committee investigation. When he could not place himself in someone's account, he acknowledged the validity of an accuser's feelings. And he is being asked to leave.
People like Trump and Moore, who reject any responsibility for predatory conduct, grandstand about their own supposed character and disparage their accusers, face no consequences.
--

k Arizona 6 hours ago
I am a feminist, a woman has dealt with sexual harassment and assault, and a former Minnesotan, and I do not want Senator Franken to resign. His past actions are vastly different from those of Roy Moore, Donald Trump, Anthony Wiener, Harvey Weinstein, Kevin Spacey, etc. Why are his only options denial or resignation? Why are we incapable in this country of gradations of opinion and consequences?
--

Carol Campbell Phila 16 minutes ago
This is absolutely nuts.
Franken demonstrated bad taste but did he cost anybody a job, demand sex for opportunity etc. etc,
We have Trump in the White House , and Moore probably in the senate and we lose Franken?
Democrats get a grip!!!
--

Joe Langford Austin, TX 20 minutes ago
These Democratic women and men are seriously misreading the public sentiment. Remember that Trump won the white female vote in the election. And remember that males have the vote, too. Like it or not, these women, led by Gillibrand, are coming across to many Americans as feminist fanatics. Why would they ignore due process and their own investigative procedures? Sure, sexual harassment is wrong and illegal. But I have heard nothing about Franken that would meet the definition. The most recent allegation that pushed Gillibrand over her "line in the sand," reported as being anonymous, is laughable on its face. Gillibrand should find a movement to lead, but I don't believe it will be in the U.S. Senate, since she will not be reelected.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:51 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
ocho wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Fwiw, Franken ranked in the top 2-3 presidential candidates the GOP was most worried about, according to my source, and now they know they can take out any threat withba simple allegation campaign...

Btw, the first rule of power is that you cannot exercise power for good or evil unless you have it...


I am truly shocked and surprised you still support this guy.


That's your prerogative, and I respect you as a friend and a person whose opinion I value. But there's a lot behind this that stinks to high heaven, and just as playing to right wing nationalist urges is easy, so is feeding the frenzy of a righteous mob mentality, and you guys are getting played imo.


I respect you as a person as well, which is why your take on this is so surprising and disappointing. 7 accusers and counting. The prime evidence that he’s being framed by a conspiracy appears to be that he’s a liberal. You’re basically using the Bill O’Reilly defense. O’Reilly is also the victim of a targeted hit job from the other side and he’s got proof he swears he will share one day. Of course Franken could use the evidence you have to exonerate himself rather than pretty much cop to it and then resign. It’s about as far fetched in my opinion as Franken being feared by the opposition as a Presidential candidate. Initially you argued there was a lack of multiple accusers for Franken with no established pattern and now that there is its a “mob” frenzy. I genuinely empathize with not wanting to believe bad things about people you admire. Lord knows I’ve struggled with it too. But exactly how many people must come forward about Franken before you believe them?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:55 pm    Post subject:

I'm still where I started on Franken I think. I'm fine with an ethics investigation instead of a resignation. There needs to be recourse and a punishment of some kind. As long as there is that, I'm okay. I think some ethics hearings will do more than his resignation as well. The republicans won't bother with something like that for their own, or even anything close to it, which is why I think we maintain the moral high ground regardless. So long as the Democrats shine a light on it and advocate something, even ignoring the low bar that's already been established by the GOP, they can't be called hypocritical.

In any case, we can argue about the punishment and how far it should go, but so long as there is one, that's what matters to me and should to the Dems. That - a punishment and acknowledgment of the conduct for what it is - is what will separate the Democrats from the Republicans and ensure there is no hypocrisy.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:57 pm    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
See this is why Democrats stay losing. They're forcing out Franken and Conyers. Meanwhile, we have a (bleep) grabber in the White House, and Alabama is getting ready to send a pedophile to the United States Senate. In the minds of good Christians, a Pedophile is better than a Democrat. I don't know what planet y'all are on, but it ain't Earth. The gloves are off, and the only people who don't seem to understand that are Democrats. Stay losing, my friends.


Sorry to see you feel that way. But the reality is, you're never losing when you are doing the right thing.

I have already (and redundantly) expressed my views on this subject. But just to re-iterate, regardless of what the other side is doing and/or getting away with, integrity is key.

Subjugating that integrity merely for the sake of saying,"they do it, so we should do it" is where the losing part actually comes in.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:09 pm    Post subject:

Actually, as I've said before, I'm not a big Franken fan. I think he's overrated as a comedian and comedy writer, and he doesn't exactly make my top list of presidential candidates, and his seat is probably safe in another Democrat' s hands. The issues for me started with the huge whiff of b.s. with the initial accusation, and those have been borne out (I can go into that a bit if you like). Then there's the ham handed attempt at a second accuser that turned out to be a hack who couldn't get a solid accusation out there (I mean really, he argued with me after a talk show and then called me to argue some more?).

And by a week in, the story was pretty quickly shifting to the women he's worked with strongly defending him, and the glaring inconsistencies with tweeden, etc. And like magic, on Monday, you get a woman who claims be groped her in a picture taking event, complete with a picture where she's apparently glowingly excited about it as it is happening (not to mention some serious issues behind her accusation I can't put out there, so ok if you don't believe me), and then a few more, "yeah, he grabbed me during a photo op" and a return to the "he tried to kiss me" when that seemed a bit weak. And the accusers metered out at exactky the right moment to combat the exact right thing.

I don't know the truth about Franken. I do know there are some serious issues with the trail of the accusations. I'm not arguing with anyone else this far, on either side of the aisle, (not to mention many oeople i AM a fan if) so it's not just a partisan thing. It was a hunch I've looked into and it has thus far seemed what I thought. You disagree, and I can live with that. Sorry you're shocked on a personal level, but on a factual level that kind of thing has never really been a convincing argument for me. I feel i have justification for my stance, and i KNOW it isnt based on what you think I'm basing things on, so I'm cool with the heat.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:15 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
hoopschick29 wrote:
See this is why Democrats stay losing. They're forcing out Franken and Conyers. Meanwhile, we have a (bleep) grabber in the White House, and Alabama is getting ready to send a pedophile to the United States Senate. In the minds of good Christians, a Pedophile is better than a Democrat. I don't know what planet y'all are on, but it ain't Earth. The gloves are off, and the only people who don't seem to understand that are Democrats. Stay losing, my friends.


Sorry to see you feel that way. But the reality is, you're never losing when you are doing the right thing.

I have already (and redundantly) expressed my views on this subject. But just to re-iterate, regardless of what the other side is doing and/or getting away with, integrity is key.

Subjugating that integrity merely for the sake of saying,"they do it, so we should do it" is where the losing part actually comes in.


That's a respectable opinion. And there are others. I think the high ground and a high horse often resemble each other (having been atop both) and passion replacing reason is a significant pragmatic issue and while it will brand me horribly, I think there are compromises that are made to achieve, exercise, and hold power. I wasn't willing to vote Stein to be principled, nor to throw all semblance of caution to the wind and let anyone take out anyone by accusation.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:19 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
At some point, you realize you are on a slippery slope and you need to stop in your tracks... and I'm not willing to save the couch at the cost of the home. Yes, its possible we may lose both in the long run, but that's the guaranteed outcome if we start compromising our policies just to win. Hard to come back from those depths even under the rationale of "we just need to do this for now until the ship is righted again." I think there is a way to both win while holding people accountable in the way they should be.


Brilliant post.

Here's where I stand. Win or lose, I want to battle from the standpoint that I can look back on with dignity. There is NO way the Left wins this battle by becoming just another version of the Right.

I get why the "fight fire with fire" is the tempting go to, but this is not the time for it. It's simply sinking down to the lower level.

The Civil Rights movement was not won by the oppressed resorting to violence. It was won because people rose above the violence to make statements like refusing to sit in the back of the bus or by sitting at a lunch counter.

Being better leads to better things.

Being the same, inappropriate response just leads to perpetuating the disfunction.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:24 pm    Post subject:

Something does seem fishy about the Franken accusations... but its hard to know whether that's me wanting him to be okay or whether I'm actually being objective. And, frankly, the same can be said about Roy Moore - while the accusations, if true, are much more grave, how much evidence do we really have that he did anything than what we have on Franken? Seems there is more, but still. In both these ways, unfortunately, that's where, yes, we can get played. We are so sensitive to not being like Republicans that we go to the far extreme to prove we are not. It's equally difficult to figure out where the correct median/middle ground is.

In fact, when the Franken accusations first came out, I made this same point - how things will go from one extreme to the other, and how its hard to not get caught up in the wave.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:30 pm    Post subject:

The two party system is done for. We need a Jon Gnarr for president. Punk politics for 2020!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:38 pm    Post subject:

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In fact, when the Franken accusations first came out, I made this same point - how things will go from one extreme to the other, and how its hard to not get caught up in the wave.


I don't find these things difficult to differentiate. Roy Moore is accused of much worse things than Franken. One deserves to lose his Senate seat and the other deserves to go to prison. That Democrats all universally believe the Roy Moore accusers and not the Franken accusers I think speaks for itself. I don't think its a huge leap to believe 7 people with similar stories. The leap is in believing they're all lying just cuz.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:45 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
Something does seem fishy about the Franken accusations... but its hard to know whether that's me wanting him to be okay or whether I'm actually being objective. And, frankly, the same can be said about Roy Moore - while the accusations, if true, are much more grave, how much evidence do we really have that he did anything than what we have on Franken? Seems there is more, but still. In both these ways, unfortunately, that's where, yes, we can get played. We are so sensitive to not being like Republicans that we go to the far extreme to prove we are not. It's equally difficult to figure out where the correct median/middle ground is.

In fact, when the Franken accusations first came out, I made this same point - how things will go from one extreme to the other, and how its hard to not get caught up in the wave.


It breaks my heart to lose the joy brought to me by Spacey and Louis CK, but I can live with it, just as I can live with Franken being wrong if he is. There's a distinct difference and pattern with him that doesn't work for me, not a desire for him to be OK.

As far as Moore, the evidence is pretty strong if circumstantial, and not just a stringing of accusations that are timed with other events and problems with the initial accusation. And they are corroborated by other evidence from disinterested or at least less interested parties of his behavioral issues. This wasn't really much of a secret locally. I think if he's a Democrat we arent having this conversation. Of course, it helps that Moore himself has made incriminating statements.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:48 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Quote:
In fact, when the Franken accusations first came out, I made this same point - how things will go from one extreme to the other, and how its hard to not get caught up in the wave.


I don't find these things difficult to differentiate. Roy Moore is accused of much worse things than Franken. One deserves to lose his Senate seat and the other deserves to go to prison. That Democrats all universally believe the Roy Moore accusers and not the Franken accusers I think speaks for itself. I don't think its a huge leap to believe 7 people with similar stories. The leap is in believing they're all lying just cuz.


Devil's advocate - if you have nefarious motives (whatever they are), you never experienced anything and you want to be believed that you actually did, would you tell a story that falls within a pattern or create completely new allegations from left field? With Franken, this question may be especially appropriate where the first accuser has been proven to lack credibility while having suspect motives (both politically and publicity based). On the other hand, there is a reason why a pattern is convincing... because it makes more sense than random, unrelated acts.

Regardless, we shouldn't promote a culture which automatically doubts the accuser and believes the alleged perpetrator, but we also do not want to promote a culture that does the opposite. The problem is that, right now, because we've doubted and silenced the accusers for so long that we have to give accusers more of the benefit of the doubt than we would otherwise if we were truly objective. It may be the only way to get us to a place where people are truly objective, and stop approaching these things as we have in the past.

Still, this is the wave I am talking about. Ultimately, we need to get to a place where we can be truly objective. However, in the meantime, you hope that the punishment fits the crime, that not too many true victims are dismissed and that not too many false perpetrators are persecuted.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:55 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Quote:
In fact, when the Franken accusations first came out, I made this same point - how things will go from one extreme to the other, and how its hard to not get caught up in the wave.


I don't find these things difficult to differentiate. Roy Moore is accused of much worse things than Franken. One deserves to lose his Senate seat and the other deserves to go to prison. That Democrats all universally believe the Roy Moore accusers and not the Franken accusers I think speaks for itself. I don't think its a huge leap to believe 7 people with similar stories. The leap is in believing they're all lying just cuz.


I started out with a problem specifically with the first accusation on the merits, and there are a lot of demonstrable misrepresentations in it as it turns out. I have a problem with some of the other accusers, but can't really say on some of the others. Fwiw, I don't have a blanket of belief with all of Moore's accusers either, and it was his own statements that do it for me, as well as the background witnesses of his habits. If the first accuser had misrepresented a bunch of things, and there were suspicious issues with some others and no other corroboration, there would be good call for skepticism in his case too, given the political issues at play.
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