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The Lebrons
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Joined: 30 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | Some additional context for Trump's hatred of the FBI (other than the fact they investigated him). The FBI briefed both Obama and Trump on the Steele dossier - as part of their duty to keep both current and incoming president aware of what was happening. Trump thought the FBI was trying to blackmail him.
Link to page from the book |
This is probably because the FBI disclosed to him potential blackmail from Russia. "My friend Vladimir would never do that!"  |
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PLATNUM
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Joined: 17 Dec 2002
Posts: 7191
Location: L.A.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:53 am Post subject: |
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My buddy (who I've mentioned on here before) was giving me shtt because I "let" my daughter (7th grade) participate in a "staged, govt funded and MSM encouraged and covered walkout". He argues that the same kind of coverage wouldn't occur if it was a Pro-Life walkout.
Sent me a link of some article where a teacher was under fire for questioning the walkout and such. Thankfully this guy has no kids. But he has 2 nephew's who he is brainwashing. It's pretty sad. There is really no talking this guy off the ledge at this point.
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"Dread it, run from it... destiny arrives all the same." |
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ContagiousInspiration
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Joined: 07 May 2014
Posts: 13823
Location: Boulder ;)
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| The Lebrons wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | Some additional context for Trump's hatred of the FBI (other than the fact they investigated him). The FBI briefed both Obama and Trump on the Steele dossier - as part of their duty to keep both current and incoming president aware of what was happening. Trump thought the FBI was trying to blackmail him.
Link to page from the book |
This is probably because the FBI disclosed to him potential blackmail from Russia. "My friend Vladimir would never do that!" |
It was the Only reason he could imagine why the read the collusion dossier to him
Instead of handcuffing him
Or it just sounds good
Donald may not be stunted in every area
Seems in all honesty he is a Master Manipulator |
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jodeke
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Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67720
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Yup, they are trying to impugn his testimony, punish him, and scare any other prospective witnesses. |
Can Trump now hire someone, who can then fire Mueller?
Just trying to figure out if this is a slo-mo Saturday Night Massacre.
I have my marching shoes ready. But I want to know if we have 1 more safe guard for Mueller (maybe Rosenstein). I'm not familiar with the process. |
Why it’s much harder for Trump to fire Robert Mueller than it was to fire James Comey
LINK
| Quote: | | The special counsel procedures were established by a Justice Department regulation, and the authors of this regulation tried to make it deliberately difficult for the special counsel to be fired. They wrote that only the attorney general can fire him or her, and that even then, there would have to be a good reason — that it could only be done for “misconduct, dereliction of duty, incapacity, conflict of interest, or for other good cause.” |
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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ContagiousInspiration
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Joined: 07 May 2014
Posts: 13823
Location: Boulder ;)
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| PLATNUM wrote: | My buddy (who I've mentioned on here before) was giving me shtt because I "let" my daughter (7th grade) participate in a "staged, govt funded and MSM encouraged and covered walkout". He argues that the same kind of coverage wouldn't occur if it was a Pro-Life walkout.
Sent me a link of some article where a teacher was under fire for questioning the walkout and such. Thankfully this guy has no kids. But he has 2 nephew's who he is brainwashing. It's pretty sad. There is really no talking this guy off the ledge at this point. |
Who does he think "the government" is?
Tell him if he was a true Patriot he would seek to understand
Through actual research and knowledge.
Not "feels" and Entertainment television/radio
The one thing I can agree upon is the direction of guns being the problem
Gun makers sellers being the problem
Human Mental/Psychological disorders are the problem that needs addressed
They don't have the desire for mass revenge because guns exst.
Why do humans want to remain broken to the point they hurt so much they want to hurt others? |
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jodeke
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Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:14 am Post subject: |
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AP learns McCabe kept memos regarding Pres. Trump
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This person says the memos are similar to the ones maintained by former FBI Director James Comey, who President Trump fired last May.
Comey’s series of notes detailed interactions with President Trump that Comey said unnerved him |
.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Omar Little
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Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| PLATNUM wrote: | My buddy (who I've mentioned on here before) was giving me shtt because I "let" my daughter (7th grade) participate in a "staged, govt funded and MSM encouraged and covered walkout". He argues that the same kind of coverage wouldn't occur if it was a Pro-Life walkout.
Sent me a link of some article where a teacher was under fire for questioning the walkout and such. Thankfully this guy has no kids. But he has 2 nephew's who he is brainwashing. It's pretty sad. There is really no talking this guy off the ledge at this point. |
Let him know that if there is ever a point where his right to not have an abortion is being threatened, I will march by his side.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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Omar Little
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Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Yup, they are trying to impugn his testimony, punish him, and scare any other prospective witnesses. |
Can Trump now hire someone, who can then fire Mueller?
Just trying to figure out if this is a slo-mo Saturday Night Massacre.
I have my marching shoes ready. But I want to know if we have 1 more safe guard for Mueller (maybe Rosenstein). I'm not familiar with the process. |
Why it’s much harder for Trump to fire Robert Mueller than it was to fire James Comey
LINK
| Quote: | | The special counsel procedures were established by a Justice Department regulation, and the authors of this regulation tried to make it deliberately difficult for the special counsel to be fired. They wrote that only the attorney general can fire him or her, and that even then, there would have to be a good reason — that it could only be done for “misconduct, dereliction of duty, incapacity, conflict of interest, or for other good cause.” |
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I hate to always be the cynic, but if trump fires sessions and puts his guy in there, that guy will call whatever reason he uses good cause and the gop congress will say sure, fine.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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kikanga
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Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29354
Location: La La Land
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Yup, they are trying to impugn his testimony, punish him, and scare any other prospective witnesses. |
Can Trump now hire someone, who can then fire Mueller?
Just trying to figure out if this is a slo-mo Saturday Night Massacre.
I have my marching shoes ready. But I want to know if we have 1 more safe guard for Mueller (maybe Rosenstein). I'm not familiar with the process. |
Why it’s much harder for Trump to fire Robert Mueller than it was to fire James Comey
LINK
| Quote: | | The special counsel procedures were established by a Justice Department regulation, and the authors of this regulation tried to make it deliberately difficult for the special counsel to be fired. They wrote that only the attorney general can fire him or her, and that even then, there would have to be a good reason — that it could only be done for “misconduct, dereliction of duty, incapacity, conflict of interest, or for other good cause.” |
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Oh ok. Thanks Jo. That eases my worries.
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"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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The Lebrons
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Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 4778
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Yup, they are trying to impugn his testimony, punish him, and scare any other prospective witnesses. |
Can Trump now hire someone, who can then fire Mueller?
Just trying to figure out if this is a slo-mo Saturday Night Massacre.
I have my marching shoes ready. But I want to know if we have 1 more safe guard for Mueller (maybe Rosenstein). I'm not familiar with the process. |
Why it’s much harder for Trump to fire Robert Mueller than it was to fire James Comey
LINK
| Quote: | | The special counsel procedures were established by a Justice Department regulation, and the authors of this regulation tried to make it deliberately difficult for the special counsel to be fired. They wrote that only the attorney general can fire him or her, and that even then, there would have to be a good reason — that it could only be done for “misconduct, dereliction of duty, incapacity, conflict of interest, or for other good cause.” |
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Oh ok. Thanks Jo. That eases my worries. |
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jodeke
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Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67720
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Yup, they are trying to impugn his testimony, punish him, and scare any other prospective witnesses. |
Can Trump now hire someone, who can then fire Mueller?
Just trying to figure out if this is a slo-mo Saturday Night Massacre.
I have my marching shoes ready. But I want to know if we have 1 more safe guard for Mueller (maybe Rosenstein). I'm not familiar with the process. |
Why it’s much harder for Trump to fire Robert Mueller than it was to fire James Comey
LINK
| Quote: | | The special counsel procedures were established by a Justice Department regulation, and the authors of this regulation tried to make it deliberately difficult for the special counsel to be fired. They wrote that only the attorney general can fire him or her, and that even then, there would have to be a good reason — that it could only be done for “misconduct, dereliction of duty, incapacity, conflict of interest, or for other good cause.” |
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I hate to always be the cynic, but if trump fires sessions and puts his guy in there, that guy will call whatever reason he uses good cause and the gop congress will say sure, fine. |
His guy would have to agree to fire Muller. If he refused that could put in motion a Saturday Night Massacre. We know the outcome of Nixon's SNM. Also, if I'm not mistaken, there would have to be good cause. Finding good cause from what I've seen of Mueller will be a hard stump to pull.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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ChefLinda
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 24166
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Trump has very little impulse control. Of course his advisers are warning him not to try to fire Mueller (however that would play out, firing Sessions first, etc.) But Trump has been moving more and more to just doing whatever he feels like in the moment. There was no reason to do a "happy dance" tweet over McCabe's firing. His tweet basically looks like admitting premeditated firing before the report was written (similar to Comey firing) and also obstruction of justice. But he couldn't help himself.
At some point, he's is going to just go for it - because he thinks he's smarter than everyone else, because that's how he's always operated in his businesses, because he's motivated by revenge, because his fear of the fallout is less than his fear of what Mueller will find in the Trump business records. Being impeached is one thing. Going to jail along with all his kids for money laundering, conspiracy, consorting with the mob etc. is another thing. |
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Omar Little
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Joined: 02 May 2005
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Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Yup, they are trying to impugn his testimony, punish him, and scare any other prospective witnesses. |
Can Trump now hire someone, who can then fire Mueller?
Just trying to figure out if this is a slo-mo Saturday Night Massacre.
I have my marching shoes ready. But I want to know if we have 1 more safe guard for Mueller (maybe Rosenstein). I'm not familiar with the process. |
Why it’s much harder for Trump to fire Robert Mueller than it was to fire James Comey
LINK
| Quote: | | The special counsel procedures were established by a Justice Department regulation, and the authors of this regulation tried to make it deliberately difficult for the special counsel to be fired. They wrote that only the attorney general can fire him or her, and that even then, there would have to be a good reason — that it could only be done for “misconduct, dereliction of duty, incapacity, conflict of interest, or for other good cause.” |
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I hate to always be the cynic, but if trump fires sessions and puts his guy in there, that guy will call whatever reason he uses good cause and the gop congress will say sure, fine. |
His guy would have to agree to fire Muller. If he refused that could put in motion a Saturday Night Massacre. We know the outcome of Nixon's SNM. Also, if I'm not mistaken, there would have to be good cause. Finding good cause from what I've seen of Mueller will be a hard stump to pull. |
The whole purpose of firing sessions would be to put in a guy who would do it. It’s not like the Saturday night massacre where they kept firing the top guy and elevating the next guy in line from the career guys. He would put in his own guy at the top (Pruitt is the guy rumored to want it) and that guy would do the deed. And of course say it was over some conflict or misdeed on Mueller’s part. I’m guessing trumps lawyers already have the supposed reason ready to roll out.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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Omar Little
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Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:01 am Post subject: |
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Nixon had a senate that wasn’t going to confirm a new top guy to stooge for him. Trump has his own senate, and even if not, they are already floating the idea that they can transfer an already confirmed guy from one department to another.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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ChefLinda
Moderator
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 24166
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Yup, they are trying to impugn his testimony, punish him, and scare any other prospective witnesses. |
Can Trump now hire someone, who can then fire Mueller?
Just trying to figure out if this is a slo-mo Saturday Night Massacre.
I have my marching shoes ready. But I want to know if we have 1 more safe guard for Mueller (maybe Rosenstein). I'm not familiar with the process. |
Why it’s much harder for Trump to fire Robert Mueller than it was to fire James Comey
LINK
| Quote: | | The special counsel procedures were established by a Justice Department regulation, and the authors of this regulation tried to make it deliberately difficult for the special counsel to be fired. They wrote that only the attorney general can fire him or her, and that even then, there would have to be a good reason — that it could only be done for “misconduct, dereliction of duty, incapacity, conflict of interest, or for other good cause.” |
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I hate to always be the cynic, but if trump fires sessions and puts his guy in there, that guy will call whatever reason he uses good cause and the gop congress will say sure, fine. |
His guy would have to agree to fire Muller. If he refused that could put in motion a Saturday Night Massacre. We know the outcome of Nixon's SNM. Also, if I'm not mistaken, there would have to be good cause. Finding good cause from what I've seen of Mueller will be a hard stump to pull. |
Under Nixon there was special statute protecting the independent prosecutor. Today, only Department of Justice rules govern the procedures. Theoretically, a new Attorney General could change the procedures for firing a special prosecutor from "firing for cause" to whatever he wants. |
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jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67720
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Yup, they are trying to impugn his testimony, punish him, and scare any other prospective witnesses. |
Can Trump now hire someone, who can then fire Mueller?
Just trying to figure out if this is a slo-mo Saturday Night Massacre.
I have my marching shoes ready. But I want to know if we have 1 more safe guard for Mueller (maybe Rosenstein). I'm not familiar with the process. |
Why it’s much harder for Trump to fire Robert Mueller than it was to fire James Comey
LINK
| Quote: | | The special counsel procedures were established by a Justice Department regulation, and the authors of this regulation tried to make it deliberately difficult for the special counsel to be fired. They wrote that only the attorney general can fire him or her, and that even then, there would have to be a good reason — that it could only be done for “misconduct, dereliction of duty, incapacity, conflict of interest, or for other good cause.” |
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I hate to always be the cynic, but if trump fires sessions and puts his guy in there, that guy will call whatever reason he uses good cause and the gop congress will say sure, fine. |
His guy would have to agree to fire Muller. If he refused that could put in motion a Saturday Night Massacre. We know the outcome of Nixon's SNM. Also, if I'm not mistaken, there would have to be good cause. Finding good cause from what I've seen of Mueller will be a hard stump to pull. |
The whole purpose of firing sessions would be to put in a guy who would do it. It’s not like the Saturday night massacre where they kept firing the top guy and elevating the next guy in line from the career guys. He would put in his own guy at the top (Pruitt is the guy rumored to want it) and that guy would do the deed. And of course say it was over some conflict or misdeed on Mueller’s part. I’m guessing trumps lawyers already have the supposed reason ready to roll out. |
That's my point. Mueller is reported to be clean as a just bathed newborn. If I have it correct "good cause" has to be approved by Congress.. The looming Blue Wave may give some congressmen/women cause to pause.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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ChefLinda
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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Location: Boston
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| ^^^jodeke, see my post above about new AG ability to change the "good cause" rule. |
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32
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Joined: 04 Nov 2009
Posts: 73074
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:32 am Post subject: |
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I wonder what he is so afraid of.
| Quote: | | "Trump is moving his fight to keep Stormy Daniels silent about their alleged affair to federal court — and she’s now threatened with $20 million in damages if she doesn’t keep her mouth shut." |
https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/974799994279653376
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Nobody in the NBA can touch the Laker brand, which, like the uniform color, is pure gold. |
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jodeke
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Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67720
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | | ^^^jodeke, see my post above about new AG ability to change the "good cause" rule. |
I'd like to read the reasoning for your post. Is there a statue, rule, something to affirm it? It doesn't make sense to me to give a office that much discretion. The ability to "just make something up."
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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ContagiousInspiration
Franchise Player
Joined: 07 May 2014
Posts: 13823
Location: Boulder ;)
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:45 am Post subject: |
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2018/03/17/trump-lawyers-call-to-end-the-russia-probe-is-all-about-the-investigations-aftermath-or-firing-mueller/
Trump's Personal Lawyer, John Dowd, calls for Mueller to be fired
^^^
Go for it.. see if our Politicians have a spine
Treason to knowingly protect Trump from impeachment and incarceration
Nunes
Ryan
McConnell
Anyone who approved the Republican intelligence committee to say Russian meddling didn't happen.. should be incarcerated once we regain control of the democracy
This is a full scale coup if anyone isn't paying attention
TaxCut has nearly destroyed our budget already
Last edited by ContagiousInspiration on Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ContagiousInspiration
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Joined: 07 May 2014
Posts: 13823
Location: Boulder ;)
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| 32 wrote: | I wonder what he is so afraid of.
| Quote: | | "Trump is moving his fight to keep Stormy Daniels silent about their alleged affair to federal court — and she’s now threatened with $20 million in damages if she doesn’t keep her mouth shut." |
https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/974799994279653376 |
We should contact that billionaire who was putting out ads to impeach Trump
Step up to the plate and let the world know you will pay every legal fee Stormy Daniels could Ever need if he wants to take Trump down this is his chance
Trump used campaign funds to pay her
And probably others
Now this $20,000,000 threat is Extortion to accept the non-binding nda. |
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ChefLinda
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 24166
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | ^^^jodeke, see my post above about new AG ability to change the "good cause" rule. |
I'd like to read the reasoning for your post. Is there a statue, rule, something to affirm it? It doesn't make sense to me to give a office that much discretion. The ability to "just make something up." |
I've been listening to the former Watergate prosecutors and former Dept. of Justice officials on MSNBC for the last year. This question has been posed to them over and over again. The consensus is that once the Congress let the Independent Counsel statue expire (originally established after Watergate precisely to prevent the President from being able to fire the prosecutor), then the power to appoint a special prosecutor reverted back to the Attorney General, following internal DOJ guidelines. The AG has the ability to change internal guidelines. I'm not sure what the internal procedure entails, but since the final arbiter would be the AG, then who would challenge him? It would require Congress to intervene by writing another statue, etc. Do you see the GOP congress intervening?
I'll see if I can find an article. (but I have a really good memory about these things) |
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The Lebrons
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Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 4778
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| 32 wrote: | I wonder what he is so afraid of.
| Quote: | | "Trump is moving his fight to keep Stormy Daniels silent about their alleged affair to federal court — and she’s now threatened with $20 million in damages if she doesn’t keep her mouth shut." |
https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/974799994279653376 |
This is how rich, powerful people try to intimate people. Good luck. |
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jodeke
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Joined: 17 Nov 2007
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Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | ^^^jodeke, see my post above about new AG ability to change the "good cause" rule. |
I'd like to read the reasoning for your post. Is there a statue, rule, something to affirm it? It doesn't make sense to me to give a office that much discretion. The ability to "just make something up." |
I've been listening to the former Watergate prosecutors and former Dept. of Justice officials on MSNBC for the last year. This question has been posed to them over and over again. The consensus is that once the Congress let the Independent Counsel statue expire (originally established after Watergate precisely to prevent the President from being able to fire the prosecutor), then the power to appoint a special prosecutor reverted back to the Attorney General, following internal DOJ guidelines. The AG has the ability to change internal guidelines. I'm not sure what the internal procedure entails, but since the final arbiter would be the AG, then who would challenge him? It would require Congress to intervene by writing another statue, etc. Do you see the GOP congress intervening?
I'll see if I can find an article. (but I have a really good memory about these things) |
Honestly, yes, to a degree.Those people are survivors. 2018 is looming. There are seats up for election. The possibility of a Blue Wave may be cause to pause for some.
I've held for some time, sooner or later Trump supporters will see the damage he's causing and jump ship. It's happening in a sense by all the retirements.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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RoyalPurple8
Starting Rotation
Joined: 18 Oct 2017
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:13 am Post subject: |
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Are people really questioning whether we should be paranoid about the FBI. Their credibility is pretty horrible I would say.
This is the same organization that claimed Marijuana would make black men sexually assault white women.
This is the same organization that supposedly had info on every attack on American soil and never did nothing to stop any of these incidences (particularly mass shootings).
All of a sudden we love politicians and the FBI and believe what they say? |
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