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DaMuleRules
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Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52652
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Huey Lewis & The News wrote: | | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: |
And another thing, why us our global dominance better than Russias? Is imprisoning the children of immigrants, legalized theft by cop aka civil asset forfeiture, propping up dictators, taking down democratically elected governments, starting illegal wars without end for the sake of controlling natural resources, killing thousands ds in drone attacks, torturing people, legalized bribery aka lobbying, military bases all around the world, by far the highest prison population in the whole world, legalized forced barely paid labor of prisoners aka slavery, and so on and so on. Our government is as corrupt as the next, and you care more about Russia cutting in on our crimes than our crimes thmeselves?
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Good, but then why do you emphasize the motives of Russia rather than the exposed corruption of our democratic system? Manning and Snowden did the same (bleep) thing, and they made those administration's and the government in general look bad. Their actions influenced what people thought too. |
I'm not naive when it comes to the evils we commit in order to maintain both our economic supremacy and our brand of society. It's a calculated nationalism. I believe that our brand, our way, our style, is far superior to Russia's way, using any kind of comparison...itemized, composite, whatever. It's why my parents moved here, it's why I choose to live here, it's why I'll choose to stay here and support our way, so long as our balance of atrocity/goodness remains acceptable, and I would pull my support immediately, (which includes actually relocating to a similar western society) if it approached Russian levels. Isn't that why you choose to live here and continue to support our government with your time and your tax dollars? If you were to ask the architects of the leaking and hacking about the true teleological arc of their work, do you think they'd tell you that "democratic transparency and fair elections, so as to strengthen the United States" is what they're aiming for? Do you not prefer a government, even with its flawed party system, to a government which "elected" Vladimir Putin to be "president" for 20 years? |
Damn CMB. That's the best post I have read here in a long while.
_________________
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And everything you built that’s all for show
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In 24 frames
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Surfitall
Star Player
Joined: 12 Feb 2002
Posts: 3829
Location: South Orange County
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | Huey Lewis & The News wrote: | | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: |
And another thing, why us our global dominance better than Russias? Is imprisoning the children of immigrants, legalized theft by cop aka civil asset forfeiture, propping up dictators, taking down democratically elected governments, starting illegal wars without end for the sake of controlling natural resources, killing thousands ds in drone attacks, torturing people, legalized bribery aka lobbying, military bases all around the world, by far the highest prison population in the whole world, legalized forced barely paid labor of prisoners aka slavery, and so on and so on. Our government is as corrupt as the next, and you care more about Russia cutting in on our crimes than our crimes thmeselves?
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Good, but then why do you emphasize the motives of Russia rather than the exposed corruption of our democratic system? Manning and Snowden did the same (bleep) thing, and they made those administration's and the government in general look bad. Their actions influenced what people thought too. |
I'm not naive when it comes to the evils we commit in order to maintain both our economic supremacy and our brand of society. It's a calculated nationalism. I believe that our brand, our way, our style, is far superior to Russia's way, using any kind of comparison...itemized, composite, whatever. It's why my parents moved here, it's why I choose to live here, it's why I'll choose to stay here and support our way, so long as our balance of atrocity/goodness remains acceptable, and I would pull my support immediately, (which includes actually relocating to a similar western society) if it approached Russian levels. Isn't that why you choose to live here and continue to support our government with your time and your tax dollars? If you were to ask the architects of the leaking and hacking about the true teleological arc of their work, do you think they'd tell you that "democratic transparency and fair elections, so as to strengthen the United States" is what they're aiming for? Do you not prefer a government, even with its flawed party system, to a government which "elected" Vladimir Putin to be "president" for 20 years? |
Damn CMB. That's the best post I have read here in a long while. |
Agreed. My hat is off to you, sir. |
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eddiejonze
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Joined: 19 Dec 2013
Posts: 7228
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | | Yeah, let's preserve our wholesome electoral process by having the results based on political theatre, twitter posts, focus groups, who has the most commercials, catch phrases, and mudslinging, rather than ya know, facts. Aah the good ole American way of apple pies and vapid elections. |
Unless you're 100% native american, you can't say a damn thing about the system being effed up because us non natives are ALL complicit if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty of us.
Your two options are to move, say to a country like... I don't know... Russia perhaps? OR
You could try and make thing better in this country for others rather than just point out our failings as a country on A SPORTS TEAM FAN SITE ON THE INTERNET.
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Huey Lewis & The News
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Joined: 18 Dec 2015
Posts: 5234
Location: So what's the uh...topic of discussion?
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Fan0Bynum17
Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 15436
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| eddiejonze wrote: | | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | | Yeah, let's preserve our wholesome electoral process by having the results based on political theatre, twitter posts, focus groups, who has the most commercials, catch phrases, and mudslinging, rather than ya know, facts. Aah the good ole American way of apple pies and vapid elections. |
Unless you're 100% native american, you can't say a damn thing about the system being effed up because us non natives are ALL complicit if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty of us. |
Yes, I can, and no I'm not. I don't believe in inheriting crimes based on ancestral or ethnic association. To do so, is antiquated, anti individualist, and kinda (bleep) racist.
The rest of your post is essentially if you don't like America then why don't you geeeeeet out. |
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Fan0Bynum17
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Joined: 30 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:15 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: |
And another thing, why us our global dominance better than Russias? Is imprisoning the children of immigrants, legalized theft by cop aka civil asset forfeiture, propping up dictators, taking down democratically elected governments, starting illegal wars without end for the sake of controlling natural resources, killing thousands ds in drone attacks, torturing people, legalized bribery aka lobbying, military bases all around the world, by far the highest prison population in the whole world, legalized forced barely paid labor of prisoners aka slavery, and so on and so on. Our government is as corrupt as the next, and you care more about Russia cutting in on our crimes than our crimes thmeselves? |
1) Russia isn't globally dominant.
2) Russia is a faux Republic with fake elections. And assassinations of politicians and reporters. And imprisonment and murder of citizens without due process.
3) America's current and future global dominance is fine if it is built on economics.
I'm with you on everything after your initial question. Those are all valid criticisms of our country.
I don't think the exposure/leaks has changed anything though. Snowden, Wikileaks, and other leaks about our government hasn't caused our government to stop those activities. The government just finds ways to protect the information better.
And they do it in the name of "our country's best interest".
Just to be clear though. Just because powerful people in our country have hurt Americans (and people in other countries) in ways you described above. Doesn't make Russia attacking everyday Americans alright or unimportant. They are both problems. They both deserve attention. They both should be rectified. |
I didn't say Russia was globally dominant, merely responding to the suggestion of them pursuing their own brand of it.
America's brand is selling weapons to terrorist countries like Israel and Saudi Arabia, indirectly supporting oppression of Yemen and Palestine, subverting democratic elections to prop up puppet dictators. So no, im not convinced how America acts around the world is necessarily better than how Russia acts. Are they better domestically? Yeah, but I don't really think that's relevant to what I was commenting on.
Its efficacy aside, theyre facts that expose awful things about our system. Why do you not want that? Do you wish to be less informed?
Attacking? Really? Attacking us with facts. I guess that's a thing now. |
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Fan0Bynum17
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Joined: 30 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | | I'm curious what the biggest issue is here. Is it that the Russians did it? Is it that anyone did it? Or that the Republicans weren't hacked as well? Because honestly, the only tragedy about any of this is that the Republican party's crimes weren't exposed as well. I'm glad the crimes that the DNC committed were exposed, and I don't care who exposed it. Just like I don't care about the character or motives of Edward Snowden, what he did was a good and socially beneficial thing. The Russians did us a solid, it's just they couldn't or wouldn't finish the job by doing it to the RNC as well. I hope all the countries in the world work to expose the truths about our political system. Hell, I think we should donate money to the cause. Expose these corrupt (bleep), to the point that both of these corrupt organizations collapse. |
The Russian government committed multiple acts of cyber-warfare against our country at a 9/11-type level, and may have installed a Russian puppet as president of the United States. And some Americans may have helped them (hence the Mueller investigation).
That pretty much dwarfs all the other issues you mentioned, which are certainly legitimate topics of debate under other more normal circumstances. Right now our entire representative Democracy is at stake. |
If it's really at stake because of the truth that the dnc are criminals, then good. |
It's unfortunate that your zealotry for perpetuating such hyperbole has lead you to lose sight ion where the true criminal lie.
| Quote: | | If it's under threat by the truth, then I'll be throwing a party at its funeral. I think a domestic organization using voter fraud to cheat a candidate out of the presidency is a bigger threat in honest opinion. |
Bernie wasn't "cheated" out of anything. He glommed on the DNC in a power play to try and maximize his chances. Smart move and it garnered himself more exposure than he would have had otherwise. The DNC was under no obligation to give him that chance. The truly troubling issue that has arisen out of all of it is that a large segment of voters allowed their personal disappointment to cloud their better judgement. As is evidenced by your comments. You are right in the current administration's cross-hairs. The GOP is working diligently to hinder your ability to be an equal citizen and has no concern for your well being. They do so through blatant lies and outright bigotry. Yet you choose to focus on the DNC as the threat to truth and democracy.
| Quote: | | Of ypu think we have a rep democracy when (bleep) like that is going on without consequences, then I don't know where your head is at. |
You should re-evaluate your thoughts in that regard before you accuse others off not being aware of where their heads are at.
| Quote: | | (bleep) this cold war 2 bs, it's secondary to our own system eating itself. Cyber warfare by exposing how fraudulent our democracy really is? Pfft |
Our system is far from perfect, but it's a damn sight better than what the Russian bots have led you to believe it is. Progressive ideals of rapid and drastic change for the better are awesome. But the reality is that it's not that simple. More importantly, there's a much bigger threat at hand that surpasses your concerns, as valid as they may be. |
Ok, so calling the dnc criminals for subverting the democratic process is zealous hyperbole, but saying this is 9/11 level warfare isnt?
Bernie runs as a democrat, he's glomming on, he runs as an independent, he's splitting the ticket. This just boils down to blaming him for not being Clinton, so he should go (bleep) himself, despite being legitimately popular enough to beat Clinton and Trump in a fair election. They're under no obligation to be democratic? Then the primaries are (bleep) meaningless, and so is the presidential election.
Personal disappointment? You mean like the disappointment that Trump won, therefore the whole election was a sham? Please, if I'm compromised by disappointment, then so are you. This is all an attempt to put the blame anywhere other than the DNC for their own awful campaign and loss. Now they're doubling down on their losing strategy by sticking with establishment candidates and being the not Trump party, rather than a progressive party.
I apreciate your concern dmr, you know I love you. However, two points, me being staunchly in favor of more information about our systems wrongdoing does not make me pro trump, or permissive of trump. If the truth gets in the way of a victory, then that victory is undeserved. Also, if you want to look out for my interests, then do everything you can to institute Medicare for all. That's what matters most to my own particular safety, and all transpeople. Nothing kills transpeople like them not getting the medical help they need. Dysphoria is the big killer here. I'm in this study right now, and everytime I'm asked what I think needs to change to help transpeople, I say universal health care above all else. There are lots of things that we need help in, but if we don't have the medical help we need, then we're (bleep). Bernies brand of progressivism is the only brand fighting for what we need, and I don't take candidates like that being cheated lightly, and neither should you.
The popumist left taking over the democratic party is the only way the people will win. It's the only way minorities win in general, as well. |
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Fan0Bynum17
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Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 15436
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| ContagiousInspiration wrote: | | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | | ContagiousInspiration wrote: | | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | | Yeah, let's preserve our wholesome electoral process by having the results based on political theatre, twitter posts, focus groups, who has the most commercials, catch phrases, and mudslinging, rather than ya know, facts. Aah the good ole American way of apple pies and vapid elections. |
Yes, we know Russia and Trump are helping bring America closer to what you want than any DNC etc would've..
Russia knows better what is best for Americans than Americans do. thank you |
What are you talking about? |
You seem to be railing on the DNC and America and saying I and all other Americans deserve Russia as our overlords because Multi-Death Corporations in the name of the USA murder and kill 100s of thousands of innocent people..
Hey I am on your side.. America is a basically not a SuperPower but a SuperTerror..
Still doesn't mean Prump and Tutin should be able to rob America blind..
Just wait.. the economic repercussions of Trump and Paul Ryan
The trade war
The racism
The ripping toddlers from their mothers and scarring them for life.. losing track of the actual parents of children..
Any talk supporting Russia over our own country is frightening |
Im only supporting leaks of facts about wrongdoing. Any suggestion of me wanting Russians as "overlords" is an exaggeration. |
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Fan0Bynum17
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Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 15436
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| Huey Lewis & The News wrote: | | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: |
And another thing, why us our global dominance better than Russias? Is imprisoning the children of immigrants, legalized theft by cop aka civil asset forfeiture, propping up dictators, taking down democratically elected governments, starting illegal wars without end for the sake of controlling natural resources, killing thousands ds in drone attacks, torturing people, legalized bribery aka lobbying, military bases all around the world, by far the highest prison population in the whole world, legalized forced barely paid labor of prisoners aka slavery, and so on and so on. Our government is as corrupt as the next, and you care more about Russia cutting in on our crimes than our crimes thmeselves?
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Good, but then why do you emphasize the motives of Russia rather than the exposed corruption of our democratic system? Manning and Snowden did the same (bleep) thing, and they made those administration's and the government in general look bad. Their actions influenced what people thought too. |
I'm not naive when it comes to the evils we commit in order to maintain both our economic supremacy and our brand of society. It's a calculated nationalism. I believe that our brand, our way, our style, is far superior to Russia's way, using any kind of comparison...itemized, composite, whatever. It's why my parents moved here, it's why I choose to live here, it's why I'll choose to stay here and support our way, so long as our balance of atrocity/goodness remains acceptable, and I would pull my support immediately, (which includes actually relocating to a similar western society) if it approached Russian levels. Isn't that why you choose to live here and continue to support our government with your time and your tax dollars? If you were to ask the architects of the leaking and hacking about the true teleological arc of their work, do you think they'd tell you that "democratic transparency and fair elections, so as to strengthen the United States" is what they're aiming for? Do you not prefer a government, even with its flawed party system, to a government which "elected" Vladimir Putin to be "president" for 20 years? |
Yeah yeah, if you don't like america, then get out. Ive heard it before.
I didn't choose to live here, I just live here. It's that simple. You may have the privilege to up and move to Norway or whatever, but I dont. |
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governator
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 25075
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:49 am Post subject: |
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I do think US has its flaws, definitely agree regarding the 2 party system being corrupt but this is still the best country on earth despite its flaws. I know from experience, growing up as a minority ethnic in south east asia, there are rights which exists here in US but not other places.
Which country/government would you like the US to be more like FanOfBynum17? |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144461
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| ContagiousInspiration wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | | I'm curious what the biggest issue is here. Is it that the Russians did it? Is it that anyone did it? Or that the Republicans weren't hacked as well? Because honestly, the only tragedy about any of this is that the Republican party's crimes weren't exposed as well. I'm glad the crimes that the DNC committed were exposed, and I don't care who exposed it. Just like I don't care about the character or motives of Edward Snowden, what he did was a good and socially beneficial thing. The Russians did us a solid, it's just they couldn't or wouldn't finish the job by doing it to the RNC as well. I hope all the countries in the world work to expose the truths about our political system. Hell, I think we should donate money to the cause. Expose these corrupt (bleep), to the point that both of these corrupt organizations collapse. |
I think that the big issue is that we (the USA) didn’t do it. We have been meddling in world wide elections for decades so how dare the Russians meddle in ours. There hasn’t been similar outrage over labor and big business impacting our elections. |
Dumbest thing I have ever read on the Internet© |
Sleep tight in your self prescribed cocoon
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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VicXLakers
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Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 11823
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:08 am Post subject: |
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Добро пожаловать правые крылатые патриоты Трампа.
Скоро мы примем на запад, и вы станете лидером |
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jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67614
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| VicXLakers wrote: | Добро пожаловать правые крылатые патриоты Трампа.
Скоро мы примем на запад, и вы станете лидером |
Translation
Welcome the right winged patriots of Trump.
Soon we will take to the west, and you will become a leader
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Huey Lewis & The News
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Joined: 18 Dec 2015
Posts: 5234
Location: So what's the uh...topic of discussion?
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | | Huey Lewis & The News wrote: | | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: |
And another thing, why us our global dominance better than Russias? Is imprisoning the children of immigrants, legalized theft by cop aka civil asset forfeiture, propping up dictators, taking down democratically elected governments, starting illegal wars without end for the sake of controlling natural resources, killing thousands ds in drone attacks, torturing people, legalized bribery aka lobbying, military bases all around the world, by far the highest prison population in the whole world, legalized forced barely paid labor of prisoners aka slavery, and so on and so on. Our government is as corrupt as the next, and you care more about Russia cutting in on our crimes than our crimes thmeselves?
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Good, but then why do you emphasize the motives of Russia rather than the exposed corruption of our democratic system? Manning and Snowden did the same (bleep) thing, and they made those administration's and the government in general look bad. Their actions influenced what people thought too. |
I'm not naive when it comes to the evils we commit in order to maintain both our economic supremacy and our brand of society. It's a calculated nationalism. I believe that our brand, our way, our style, is far superior to Russia's way, using any kind of comparison...itemized, composite, whatever. It's why my parents moved here, it's why I choose to live here, it's why I'll choose to stay here and support our way, so long as our balance of atrocity/goodness remains acceptable, and I would pull my support immediately, (which includes actually relocating to a similar western society) if it approached Russian levels. Isn't that why you choose to live here and continue to support our government with your time and your tax dollars? If you were to ask the architects of the leaking and hacking about the true teleological arc of their work, do you think they'd tell you that "democratic transparency and fair elections, so as to strengthen the United States" is what they're aiming for? Do you not prefer a government, even with its flawed party system, to a government which "elected" Vladimir Putin to be "president" for 20 years? |
Yeah yeah, if you don't like america, then get out. Ive heard it before.
I didn't choose to live here, I just live here. It's that simple. You may have the privilege to up and move to Norway or whatever, but I dont. |
I would never use that "If you don't like it, get out" garbage on anyone. I only wanted to respond your question as to why I think our brand is better.
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"All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers."
http://forums.lakersground.net/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=13018 |
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kikanga
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Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29277
Location: La La Land
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| Fan0Bynum17 wrote: |
Attacking? Really? Attacking us with facts. I guess that's a thing now. |
Didn't know Hillary running a child sex ring was facts. 
Also didn't know Hillary was gonna commit genocide against Christians.
During the election. For every "fact" Russia released, there was 10 lies leaked as well.
For every "true" leaked document from Russia and Wikileaks, there were altered documents as well.
You are making strange bed fellows with your argument. To say the least.
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"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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ChefLinda
Moderator
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 24158
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | VoteVets Verified account @votevets
After Trump sided with Putin over the US, GOP in Congress:
- Blocked increased funding for election security
- Blocked attempts to have Trump's translator come to Congress to tell them what happened with Putin
- Concluded House "business," and went home for a long weekend
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GOP = complicit |
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ChefLinda
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 24158
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: |
Attacking? Really? Attacking us with facts. I guess that's a thing now. |
Didn't know Hillary running a child sex ring was facts.
Also didn't know Hillary was gonna commit genocide against Christians.
During the election. For every "fact" Russia released, there was 10 lies leaked as well.
For every "true" leaked document from Russia and Wikileaks, there were altered documents as well.
You are making strange bed fellows with your argument. To say the least. |
weaponized information
| Quote: | Weaponized information is a message or content piece that is designed to affect the recipient's perception about something or someone in a way that is not warranted. The term implies a target and the intention to cause harm.
The goal of weaponized information is bringing about a change in beliefs and attitudes and, as a result, promote behavior that serves the attacker's purpose. Attacks involving weaponized information are sometimes referred to as cognitive hacking.
Weaponized information often consists of intentional falsehoods, known as disinformation. It can also be true but taken out of context, like a comment carefully selected from a longer statement so that it does not reflect what the speaker said. It may be a mixture of truth and lies, so that the known facts lend credence to the untruths. In other cases, the information may be true but its significance overblown or the timing of release calculated to cause the most harm possible.
Propaganda is an example of weaponized information: misleading or biased information of a political nature that is usually spread by governments. In contrast, weaponized information is also used in the marketplace to gain a competitive advantage. It might be used to tarnish a competitor's reputation, for example, or spread fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) about a product or technology.
Weaponized information is one form of social engineering. The presentation of the information may be skillfully crafted to exploit common cognitive biases and errors. People can protect themselves from being affected by weaponized information by strengthening their capacity for critical thinking. |
And if a weaponized information attack is waged against one candidate but not their opponent, then the playing field is no longer level. Which is what the "bad guys" want. They don't care about exposing the truth. They care about doing harm to us so they can benefit from the fall out.
It is possible to both acknowledge the above AND realize we have flawed system that needs to be improved. But denying the above out of stubbornness or anger helps no one, serves no purpose, does not advance any worthwhile change, and causes more harm than good. |
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kikanga
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Location: La La Land
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| Fan0Bynum17 wrote: |
America's brand is selling weapons to terrorist countries like Israel and Saudi Arabia, indirectly supporting oppression of Yemen and Palestine, subverting democratic elections to prop up puppet dictators. So no, im not convinced how America acts around the world is necessarily better than how Russia acts. Are they better domestically? Yeah, but I don't really think that's relevant to what I was commenting on.
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You're talking about indirect support?
Do you know what Russia did in the Ukraine and Crimea in the last 5 years?
Do you know why it's the G7 now and not the G8?
There is international consensus. Russia's acts internationally are worse than ours. But maybe that's part of your theory? Everyone but Russia is full of (bleep)?
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"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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ChefLinda
Moderator
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Posts: 24158
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:31 am Post subject: |
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America's brand also includes free speech. Which is lucky for everyone on this board. Because if you criticize the government in Russia you are either thrown in jail, pushed out a 10-story building or get poisoned.
America's brand under Obama also expanded rights for the LGTBQ community. Putin tries to erase, jail, silence, intimidate and murder those who speak out for LGTBQ rights. It's against the law in Russia to even talk about being gay. |
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kikanga
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Location: La La Land
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: |
It is possible to both acknowledge the above AND realize we have flawed system that needs to be improved. But denying the above out of stubbornness or anger helps no one, serves no purpose, does not advance any worthwhile change, and causes more harm than good. |
So true. I'm finding myself less and less patient when it comes to disingenuous arguments.
There is no amount of whatabout-ism that could put us on the same low ground as Russia.
And any argument that uses Trump's foreign policy to prove we're just as bad as Russia is misguided/ignorant. Considering Trump is serving Russia's interests and not ours.
_________________
"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90305
Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| Fan0Bynum17 wrote: |
I apreciate your concern dmr, you know I love you. However, two points, me being staunchly in favor of more information about our systems wrongdoing does not make me pro trump, or permissive of trump. If the truth gets in the way of a victory, then that victory is undeserved. Also, if you want to look out for my interests, then do everything you can to institute Medicare for all. That's what matters most to my own particular safety, and all transpeople. Nothing kills transpeople like them not getting the medical help they need. Dysphoria is the big killer here. I'm in this study right now, and everytime I'm asked what I think needs to change to help transpeople, I say universal health care above all else. There are lots of things that we need help in, but if we don't have the medical help we need, then we're (bleep). Bernies brand of progressivism is the only brand fighting for what we need, and I don't take candidates like that being cheated lightly, and neither should you.
The popumist left taking over the democratic party is the only way the people will win. It's the only way minorities win in general, as well. |
I snipped a bunch there to cut down on the quote tree, and because I wanted to concentrate on this section. I could go on at length about the factual inaccuracy/misrepresentations of the "cheating" allegations, but I'd like to concentrate on a more important issue of context and perspective:
The idea that there is only one brand of help, and only one true truth, and that it is the proper result for those who interfere with it to lose is exactly what has killed even the mildest form of work together and do the people's work in the GOP. And it is exactly what the Russians targeted among folks like yourself, selectively releasing emails, adn following them up with a barrage of fake propaganda to encourage you to take a much more radical, false view of the situation, and to try (successfully in many cases) to separate you from the left of center coalition.
THere are imperfect friends and there are enemies. Hillary did far more for health care than anyone on the far left. Was it perfect? No, but she's been at it a long time doing real work, not just popping up and calling for single payer (which I agree should be the goal). What's there now is the exact opposite, it is tearing apart even the basics of a bad system, and gutting the good parts first. You don't win anything by deciding a moral victory trumps a pragmatic one.
Speaking of single payer, the way to get it is to take the state governments, and the congress, and the presidiency. Neither Hillary nor Bernie would have been able to do more than hold the line on Obamacare, and maybe tweak it a bit. Progressives are finally understanding that yelling and occasionally showing up in presidential elections isn't going to get it done. If you are legion and people will follow, then get seats, get a seat at the table. That's how you become the power structure and effect change. Expecting others to hand it over or you will sit it out does no good.
I support people who are more left than me and more to the right, because we are a coalition of compatible ideas, not the same ones.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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ChefLinda
Moderator
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 24158
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:07 am Post subject: |
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USA Today: Trump and Russia used race and racism to divide America. But we can fix this.
| Quote: | The roughly 3,500 Facebook ads created by the Russian-based Internet Research Agency “consistently promoted ads designed to inflame race-related tensions,” a USA TODAY analysis found.
White supremacists who’ve tried to brand themselves as the “alt-right” often demonstrate a Trump-like reverence for Putin’s predominantly white, openly anti-LGBT Russia. And that affection is often rewarded by Russia’s vast propaganda efforts.
Dividing Americans over race is also the true art of Trump’s deal.
By demanding the first black president’s papers, he found a path into politics that he’d been seeking since at least 1988. “As someone possessing perhaps the best raw political instincts of any Republican in his generation, Trump had intuited, correctly, that a racist attack targeting a black president was the surest way to ingratiate himself with grass-roots Republican voters,” Joshua Green wrote. |
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Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90305
Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | | Quote: | VoteVets Verified account @votevets
After Trump sided with Putin over the US, GOP in Congress:
- Blocked increased funding for election security
- Blocked attempts to have Trump's translator come to Congress to tell them what happened with Putin
- Concluded House "business," and went home for a long weekend
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GOP = complicit |
Yup, on one or more of three fronts:
1. They are actually in on it
2. They aren't in on it but accept it because they know it is currently benefiting their party.
3. They are afraid of their base, which is deeply and irrationally in Trump's pocket, and therefore Putin's.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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JamezAmp
Star Player
Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 1788
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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JamezAmp
Star Player
Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 1788
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | ContagiousInspiration wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Fan0Bynum17 wrote: | | I'm curious what the biggest issue is here. Is it that the Russians did it? Is it that anyone did it? Or that the Republicans weren't hacked as well? Because honestly, the only tragedy about any of this is that the Republican party's crimes weren't exposed as well. I'm glad the crimes that the DNC committed were exposed, and I don't care who exposed it. Just like I don't care about the character or motives of Edward Snowden, what he did was a good and socially beneficial thing. The Russians did us a solid, it's just they couldn't or wouldn't finish the job by doing it to the RNC as well. I hope all the countries in the world work to expose the truths about our political system. Hell, I think we should donate money to the cause. Expose these corrupt (bleep), to the point that both of these corrupt organizations collapse. |
I think that the big issue is that we (the USA) didn’t do it. We have been meddling in world wide elections for decades so how dare the Russians meddle in ours. There hasn’t been similar outrage over labor and big business impacting our elections. |
Dumbest thing I have ever read on the Internet© |
Sleep tight in your self prescribed cocoon |
When have big business and labor unions shot planes out of the sky and annexed land Sudetenland style? Go back to Russia |
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