Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29353 Location: La La Land
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:22 pm Post subject:
LarryCoon wrote:
Fallout wrote:
Information and education can open your mind. People who are not well educated lack information to make their own judgement. If they are hooked on Fox or other right wing propaganda that has no basis in reality, they will believe it. Trump/Fox has develop their own quasi-totalitarian government.
David Dunning, namesake of the Dunning-Kruger effect, put it best: "An ignorant mind is precisely not a spotless, empty vessel, but one that’s filled with the clutter of irrelevant or misleading life experiences, theories, facts, intuitions, strategies, algorithms, heuristics, metaphors, and hunches that regrettably have the look and feel of useful and accurate knowledge."
He also said: "What’s curious is that, in many cases, incompetence does not leave people disoriented, perplexed, or cautious. Instead, the incompetent are often blessed with an inappropriate confidence, buoyed by something that feels to them like knowledge."
My grandpa used to tell me as a young child, " The more you know, the more you realize, you don't know much."
Ignorance is a warm blanket. Knowledge is a cold burden. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
I don't think people really understand what revoking security clearance does. It's not a petty thing. It's actually huge. It cuts that person off from consulting on future moves based on first hand experience. Self inflicted brain drain.
I don't think people really understand what revoking security clearance does. It's not a petty thing. It's actually huge. It cuts that person off from consulting on future moves based on first hand experience. Self inflicted brain drain.
Its exactly that, cutting their income off. And he now wants to revoke a current DOJ employee? GOP is a party of spineless people. _________________ The journey to 17 begins...
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52657 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:17 pm Post subject:
Hector the Pup wrote:
I don't think people really understand what revoking security clearance does. It's not a petty thing. It's actually huge. It cuts that person off from consulting on future moves based on first hand experience. Self inflicted brain drain.
Exactly.
The truly shocking thing is that the actual security risk to the country is Trump’s pettiness. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
I hope y'all are registered to vote and do so in the upcoming mid-terms. Voting rates in this country are abysmal. Must take the back the house and senate to hold the T word somewhat accountable. Vote people vote!
It’s not the abstaining from voting, it’s the voting without proper knowledge of the issues
Incorrect. It’s a combination of both. And it’s undeniable that in this last Presidential election, non-voters, or ‘protest’ voters were a huge factor. There’s nothing to be gained by pretending otherwise.
And the democrats have to understand that trump gaining the presidency is a symptom of a larger problem. They themselves have too look in the mirror and realize how they’ve allowed the middle class to be this unsatisfied that they would elect a candidate like trump. Yes, I’m singling out the Democrats because it’s they who are supposed to protect the rights of the middle and lower classes. And no, income inequality and a lower standard of living says they’re not doing it.
Clinton won the working class vote and the vote of people earning $50,000 or less. Just not the white working class vote which went to the lying racist misogynist buffoon. Studies have shown that vote was not due to "economic insecurity" but had high correlation with both racism and sexism. White racists and sexists don't want to be lumped together politically with blacks, latinos, muslims, progressive women and LGTBQ people. We aren't winning them back nor should we chase after them. You know who is coming over to the Democratic side? College-educated white people -- that would be suburban Republicans and Independents who are smart enough to realize the current Republican party is bereft of a moral compass and any worthwhile ideas for governing other than tax cuts for the 1%.
Angry non-college educated white guys with a chip on their shoulder are all too happy to blame others for their problems. The global economy and mechinization have hurt them, especially in red states and rust belt states. They want to blame brown people and women for "taking" their jobs. Guess what? They could retrain/educate themselves for jobs in the new economy. They could move to where the jobs are. Clinton mentioned job-retraining programs for dying industries like coal and they had hissy fits that a liberal woman dared speak the truth and suggest an alternative. Trump talks about bringing back coal and they lap it up like dumb puppies -- even when he doesn't deliver. They are defensive, close-minded and grievance-based people who have been brainwashed by Fox News and right-wing propaganda. The only long-term solution I can think of is higher education and psychotherapy for all.
Obviously, not every non-college white guy falls into the above category, but a majority do (they are the majority of Trump's base). You can't chase people like that. Democrats talk about education, infrastructure jobs and health care all the time. These people only hear what they want to hear. Trump didn't delineate a single policy during the campaign. But they managed to hear every single dog-whistle and overt message of white nationalism. And that's what they responded to.
There are Republican soybean farmers in red states who are getting absolutely killed by Trump's tariffs and many will lose their businesses. You know what they say when asked? "I'm hurting right now but I still support Trump because he's a smart businessman."
How do you reason with people like that?
A lot of people voted for trump. Enough to get him elected. Many of those are people whose parents were blue collar working class people who worked in the old factories or assembly lines, they were painters, plumbers, masons, some were teachers. Many of them are victims of globalism and ‘free’ trade. They are the traditional base of the Democrats. To ignore their and they’re children’s plight, and lump them up as racist, is short sighted and totally wrong. We have to pay attention to their problems, otherwise people like trump will get their attention.
So you're saying that these people were strategically voting for trump because he would bring them jobs? Fine. lets play along.
What would a rational person that actually goes and doe a little research about trumps businesses would make one of the above type of people believe he would even know what to do in order to bring them those type of jobs? What part of trumps portfolio looks like he's about creating good to great jobs for those people you mentioned above?
^^because if the reason you suggested is why they voted for him. Then these are the questions they should have been asking and should have had answered. Now I will tell you what i know for a fact some of them said as an answer to those questions. "Well he's rich, and he has businesses, therefore he could do a better job of running the country like a business then what other politicians could or would."
We've gone over this in this thread. how many big business people have you ever seen run the state, city, or country in a direction that helps out the group you speak of when these types are in charge? I have almost if never seen it happen that way. So again, what the hell were they thinking about? There was no proof that he has done what they wanted him to do as the president. there was proof that he and his daughter were ok with dodging taxes (which help out the common man in their country, states, cities) as well as him and his family businesses also getting supplies and things from overseas on the cheap rather than go with an "AMERICA FIRST" approach. and I'm not even knocking him or his family for that. its a choice you make when you're in business. are you willing to have a higher quality of goods, but have it cost you more to create and/or have to sell your items for a higher price point due to it being made in the US of A? Thats your choice. But trump wasnt making those kind of decisions where all of his stuff was here even though he could've gone outside. nope not all.
These type of voters you speak of are the exact same people trump cheated at trump university. we had this information before he was elected. Which one of those type of voters you speak of knew he was cheating people just like them with his fake university? They all knew. So why did they vote for him again?
okay you let that slide. what about him and his family shady tactics on buildings they own and how they have treated their tennants? how about all the city issues he has run into when it comes to his businesses? what about all the bankruptcies? outside of him being born a rich kid with connections and his entertainment value on TV. what the hell has trump done that would make the people you stated above believe he would do them any favors? NOT A D... THING.
So only a logical person can come to a logical conclusion. They voted for him for another reason and everyday that goes back, every tweet, every bad pick he comes up with for a position in his office lets you know they were not thinking about their own well being. they were thinking about making america white again. The problem with that logic is that, the reason they dont have jobs or are losing them or dont have good paying jobs is not because latins or blacks or others that are browner than them are taking all those jobs. Its due to globalization, it's due to technology an automation.
So these voters are so stuck on the color of people's skin that they forgot to vote for their own best interest. but guess what. this isnt new. This has been done before. history always repeats itself. These same type of white people were broke and in the fields with african slaves. Both sides use to fight together for their rights and freedom. But something changed, some of the well to do whites came up with this grand idea that says make the lowlevel whites feel special at the bottom by being a little bit better than those other people that are of darker skin. This will give us elites a buffer zone.
Do i think trump is a racist?of course. do i think all of his racist tweets and what not are really how he feels? It doesnt matter. I think he only does that to get his racist base going. because he knows they are so simple minded all he has to do is tweet get dem browns outta here and arrest those blacks... and his base will love it. even though their pockets are getting smaller and smaller. He does it for the same reason i just mentioned above. to create a buffer zone. while he keeps the racist base going. Him and his cabinet picks and dismantle regulation and run rough shot of all sorts of policies in order to make a lot more money for themselves. Not for those who voted for him.
And notice not once did I say they should've voted for hillary or some other dem, independent, or other republican. but what I do know is they have no Logical reason to have voted for trump outside of racism. thats it.
63 million people voted for trump, enough to get him elected. they voted for him cause the two party system failed them, and many were disgusted by the two party business as usual system. And they did not see a better alternative. Again, if your throwing racism all over that your missing the real issues. Which are economic and class war related. Trump maybe racist (many of his ilk probably are), and he may not be the solution, but most of those 63 million voted for him in the desperate hope he would better their lives. because the dems and republicans have been failing them (the middle class) economically for the past 50 years. Laws and regulation designed to protect the common people have been eroding in that time and people feel it. Were ignoring that fact. Most people, who cares what they're color is, want security in life, they really don't care about anything else. they're not diabolically out to suppress other groups. The racist part that support trump is a minority fringe group.
This is a class war more than anything, I firmly believe that, and sometimes it seems the way things are going the rich and elite that control this country want racial tension to keep the masses divided and distracted from the truth.
....I'm done.
'Member when Republicans cared about "fiscal responsibility".
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Hey I can deal with the added debt. But if in a couple months Republicans want to cut social programs. I'm calling B.S. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
'Member when Republicans cared about "fiscal responsibility".
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Hey I can deal with the added debt. But if in a couple months Republicans want to cut social programs. I'm calling B.S.
Blame this (bleep) on Obamacare and all those pesky legal proceedings for the illegals Obama and the Democrats invited up here all the time
We will kill Obamacare soon and you will all be better off..oh and another round of tax breaks to the Billionaires since they are the only people who know how to really MAGA
I will say it until I'm blue in the face
Our educational system MUST TEACH children (future citizens/voters) how to defend their country from Politicians
Play the Leno game and ask random people where politicians get all the money they spend or what tax cuts for the wealthy really truly achieve?
Because so many of us got it wrong in 2016, we often tend to reflexively tell ourselves that President Trump must be working some kind of hidden magic over public opinion that we’re all missing. One place this constantly manifests itself is with special counsel Robert S. Mueller’s III’s investigation: If Mueller’s approval falls a few points, a throng of pundits and hand-wringing liberals rushes forth to tell us that Trump is “winning” his battle with Mueller.
But what if public opinion about Trump and the Russia probe is a lot simpler than we think? What if the story is that large majorities think Trump is probably guilty of some sort of wrongdoing; believe that Mueller’s investigation is legitimately in keeping with the rule of law and is pursuing matters that are important to the public interest; want Trump to face questioning over these matters; don’t like Trump’s constant attacks on the investigation; and believe Trump has been trying to interfere with the probe and has been steadily lying about it all along?
Quote:
A new CNN poll finds:
Only 34 percent of Americans approve of Trump’s handling of the Russia investigation, vs. 55 percent who disapprove.
58 percent say this is a serious matter that should be investigated, vs. only 37 percent who think it’s mainly an effort to discredit Trump.
56 percent say Trump has interfered with the investigation, vs. only 38 percent who say he has not.
Only 37 percent say the things Trump has said publicly about the investigation are true, vs. 56 percent who say they are false.
70 percent say Trump should testify to Mueller, vs. only 25 percent who say he should not.
57 percent say Trump knew about contacts between his campaign operatives and Russians, vs. only 36 percent who say he did not.
Quote:
But the fodder is failing, and so are all his lies. Only small minorities believe the probe is a witch hunt; think he hasn’t interfered in it; believe he’s telling the truth about these matters; and don’t think he should testify. And those minorities are largely dominated by Republicans: In all these cases, independents — who matter in midterms — are tilted against him, a trend that other polls have also demonstrated.
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67718 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:18 am Post subject:
Joe Madison described Trumps administration as a Faustian Pact. I thought that depiction was spot on.
Quote:
Definition of Faustian
: of, relating to, resembling, or suggesting Faust; especially : made or done for present gain without regard for future cost or consequences a Faustian bargain
_________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:41 am; edited 1 time in total
63 million people voted for trump, enough to get him elected. they voted for him cause the two party system failed them, and many were disgusted by the two party business as usual system. And they did not see a better alternative. Again, if your throwing racism all over that your missing the real issues. Which are economic and class war related. Trump maybe racist (many of his ilk probably are), and he may not be the solution, but most of those 63 million voted for him in the desperate hope he would better their lives. because the dems and republicans have been failing them (the middle class) economically for the past 50 years. Laws and regulation designed to protect the common people have been eroding in that time and people feel it. Were ignoring that fact. Most people, who cares what they're color is, want security in life, they really don't care about anything else. they're not diabolically out to suppress other groups. The racist part that support trump is a minority fringe group.
This is a class war more than anything, I firmly believe that, and sometimes it seems the way things are going the rich and elite that control this country want racial tension to keep the masses divided and distracted from the truth.
....I'm done.
There is class warfare in this country. And voting for the rich white billionaire who sits on a gold toilet, plays golf all day at his private clubs and hasn't been a grocery store to personally buy something in 30 years is not the person you logically vote for if that's your issue. If people voted for him thinking he was their populist savior, then they willfully deluded themselves because there was ample evidence of Trump's business failures, stiffing workers and outright fraud such as Trump University where he screwed middle class people out of their life savings then had to settle for $25 million dollars right before the election. The only way you say you voted for him for economic reasons is if you were ignorant of the facts or willfully ignorant because you like his white populist (i.e., racist) message, or you were rich and knew he'd take care of you.
Race discrimination and sex discrimination aren't issues people are concerned with because they've bought into a distraction. Those are life and death issues for people of color and women. And they are also economic issues. (Women and people of color earn less than white men for the same jobs. If Roe v Wade is repealed, women's educational, employment and financial opportunities will be set back decades.) To be sure, the Republican party uses these issues to further divide the electorate. That doesn't mean the issues themselves aren't important. I'm sorry, it's a symptom of white male privilege to want to wave away these issues to focus solely on income inequality. All these issues are important and need to be addressed.
Income inequality matters. Voting for Trump or GOP is the last thing you do if that's your issue. The Democrats put forth legislation every day to address issues important to the middle class -- but they aren't in power so the legislation never comes to the floor for a vote and the press never reports on it. The Democrats do have a responsibility to discuss these issues (and they have been winning most of the special elections this past year by doing just that). And voters have a responsibility to inform themselves and not just wait for simplistic slogans to be spoon-fed to them.
I don't think people really understand what revoking security clearance does. It's not a petty thing. It's actually huge. It cuts that person off from consulting on future moves based on first hand experience. Self inflicted brain drain.
Its exactly that, cutting their income off. And he now wants to revoke a current DOJ employee? GOP is a party of spineless people.
.
They don't get paid for consulting or if they do it's not much. It's removing a source of experience from the field.
Just an example. McRaven asked Trump to revoke his clearance in an op ed article a couple of days ago as a show of solidarity with those who have had theirs maliciously revoked. He was in charge of JSOC which is basically the all star team of the U.S. special forces and intelligence agencies. He also ran the seal team 6 operation that killed bin Laden. He's retired but his experience is invaluable. As it stands people who are in a similar position as the ones he once held could pick up the phone and get his input on situations similar to ones he has had and as a patriot he would happily give it. Take away his clearance and that is no longer an option. You just nuked 40 years of operational experience as a resource. Now multiply it by.however many clearances he has revoked.
Now just for fun add in every unelected person who has been fired or quit because of the current administration. We're talking about literally thousands of years of experience flushed down the toilet.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:30 am Post subject:
This is seen as a feature, not a bug, to the people around Trump. The idea of the deep state is really the idea of the professional bureaucracy that drives the political class, particularly the pillaging variety of it, absolutely nuts. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29353 Location: La La Land
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:22 am Post subject:
Hector the Pup wrote:
They don't get paid for consulting or if they do it's not much. It's removing a source of experience from the field.
Just an example. McRaven asked Trump to revoke his clearance in an op ed article a couple of days ago as a show of solidarity with those who have had theirs maliciously revoked. He was in charge of JSOC which is basically the all star team of the U.S. special forces and intelligence agencies. He also ran the seal team 6 operation that killed bin Laden. He's retired but his experience is invaluable. As it stands people who are in a similar position as the ones he once held could pick up the phone and get his input on situations similar to ones he has had and as a patriot he would happily give it. Take away his clearance and that is no longer an option. You just nuked 40 years of operational experience as a resource. Now multiply it by.however many clearances he has revoked.
Now just for fun add in every unelected person who has been fired or quit because of the current administration. We're talking about literally thousands of years of experience flushed down the toilet.
Great post. Couldn't agree more.
Our military spending was huge pre-Trump. And Trump decided we need to spend more. After a certain point, I imagine experience and knowledge are more important than the $. Even with the greatest tech in the world. Our missions still depend on people making informed decisions. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Last edited by kikanga on Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:22 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:22 am Post subject:
Hector the Pup wrote:
Fallout wrote:
Hector the Pup wrote:
I don't think people really understand what revoking security clearance does. It's not a petty thing. It's actually huge. It cuts that person off from consulting on future moves based on first hand experience. Self inflicted brain drain.
Its exactly that, cutting their income off. And he now wants to revoke a current DOJ employee? GOP is a party of spineless people.
.
They don't get paid for consulting or if they do it's not much. It's removing a source of experience from the field.
Just an example. McRaven asked Trump to revoke his clearance in an op ed article a couple of days ago as a show of solidarity with those who have had theirs maliciously revoked. He was in charge of JSOC which is basically the all star team of the U.S. special forces and intelligence agencies. He also ran the seal team 6 operation that killed bin Laden. He's retired but his experience is invaluable. As it stands people who are in a similar position as the ones he once held could pick up the phone and get his input on situations similar to ones he has had and as a patriot he would happily give it. Take away his clearance and that is no longer an option. You just nuked 40 years of operational experience as a resource. Now multiply it by.however many clearances he has revoked.
Now just for fun add in every unelected person who has been fired or quit because of the current administration. We're talking about literally thousands of years of experience flushed down the toilet.
Brennan is not paid well by NBC and MSNBC? How many times did the Trump administration "consult" with John Brennan? How many times in the future would the Trump Administration "consult" with John Brennan. It is a rhetorical question in that my assumption is after Brennan jumped into the arena of partisan hot takes, his service was unlikely to ever be sought by the Trump Administration. A different administration can reinstate his clearance if it feels he adds value.
Also, was mildly disgusted by the actions of many in the intelligence community after Brennan's clearance was revoked. I understand their displeasure of the administrations actions, but what was their goal in offering their clearance to be revoked? They claim they offer this great and needed value to the future security of the country, but they prefer to not offer that service to their country to make a point for the "intelligence community" at best.....a partisan political point at worst. Have whatever opinion you choose of the Trump administration or any politician, but to see former intelligence and military leaders act in such a selfish manner should be seen as a sad day for all Americans. They chose to make a point...regardless of their motivations or even its morality over serving the people of this country.
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:30 am Post subject:
kikanga wrote:
Our military spending was huge pre-Trump. And Trump decided we need to spend more. After a certain point, I imagine experience and knowledge are more important than the $. Even with the greatest tech in the world. Our missions still depend on people making informed decisions.
Defense spending has the same flaws as all government spending. How and what to spend is influenced heavily by those with selfish motivations which is conflated with suboptimal utilization and waste.
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29353 Location: La La Land
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:32 am Post subject:
adkindo wrote:
Brennan is not paid well by NBC and MSNBC? How many times did the Trump administration "consult" with John Brennan? How many times in the future would the Trump Administration "consult" with John Brennan. It is a rhetorical question in that my assumption is after Brennan jumped into the arena of partisan hot takes, his service was unlikely to ever be sought by the Trump Administration. A different administration can reinstate his clearance if it feels he adds value.
Also, was mildly disgusted by the actions of many in the intelligence community after Brennan's clearance was revoked. I understand their displeasure of the administrations actions, but what was their goal in offering their clearance to be revoked? They claim they offer this great and needed value to the future security of the country, but they prefer to not offer that service to their country to make a point for the "intelligence community" at best.....a partisan political point at worst. Have whatever opinion you choose of the Trump administration or any politician, but to see former intelligence and military leaders act in such a selfish manner should be seen as a sad day for all Americans. They chose to make a point...regardless of their motivations or even its morality over serving the people of this country.
It's tough for me to separate our Commander in Chief from the intelligence agencies he is in charge of.
Correct me if I'm wrong. But it seems like you are judging the intelligence community in a vacuum. Your assessment is fair if you apply it to the 44 Presidents who preceded Trump. But #45 longs to be a dictator. He envies the dictators he meets. He thinks the AG should protect him personally. He thinks dissenting opinion is treasonous.
He openly questions and denigrates the intelligence community. Pretty much Trump has been spitting in the intelligence communities face (and the media) the past 3 years and now both are standing up for themselves.
Also, are we really better off as a country having a President who needs babysitters?
Is it really the greater good having people that work FOR the President, constantly saving him from his own disastrous ideas?
Where we have to rely on the judicial branch to stop racist bans and human caging?
I dunno. Omar tried to convince me a couple pages back. But I'm not sure.
It's dangerous keeping the disaster show afloat. The guy is ignorant, volatile, and unqualified.
Maybe every high ranking military official should resign and testify on why they are doing so. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Last edited by kikanga on Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:44 am; edited 5 times in total
This is going to be wasted on most but I'm in the mood to rant. Those diplomats that quit or were let go without replacements? They actually had relationships with people in the countries they worked. Not just the official ones. If you want to go spy novel you would call them assets. All of that goes out the window without a proper handoff. That got destroyed. That is not a good thing.
The best way I can explain is by using a bar as an example. You've been going to a bar long enough that you know the bartender and the regulars. You may not be friends with them but you know the basic facts. What they drink. How they act. What other regulars they hang out with. Sometimes you strike up a conversation and learn a bit more. The bartender gives you a bit of leeway when you act out because you're a good guy. You get to the point where you can read the room as soon as you walk in.
Someone who has never been in that bar could never know any of that unless that guy introduced them to everyone gave their stamp of approval and made sure it stuck.
These people are not partisan hacks, Most have served both Republican and Democratic administrations. Most have never spoken out before. There is a reason they are alarmed and speaking out. In light of the fact that we have a Republican Congress who absolutely refuses to apply checks and balances on the Executive branch, I'm glad they are speaking up. Being quiet would be the easier path. Unchecked, it's more than obvious that Trump would go full-on dictatorship if he could get away with it. Half our state department (and all their institutional knowledge) has been gutted. Ditto the EPA, Education, Science, and on and on. Thank god someone is speaking up.
An avalanche of retired senior intelligence officials and spies have joined more than a dozen of their former bosses in issuing a public rebuke of President Donald Trump’s decision to revoke the security clearance of John Brennan, the ex-CIA chief who has become a strong critic of the president.
In a rare public campaign, a total of 60 former CIA station chiefs, analysts and operations officers — along with a former director of the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency and deputy director of the National Counterterrorism Center — declared on Friday afternoon their “firm belief that the country will be weakened if there is a political litmus test applied before seasoned experts are allowed to share their views.”
“We believe equally strongly that former government officials have the right to express their unclassified views on what they see as critical national security issues without fear of being punished for doing so,” they added in a brief statement.
The statement follows a similar one issued late Thursday by 11 former directors and deputy directors of the CIA and one director of national intelligence. They served in Democratic and Republican administrations, and decried the removal of the security clearance “as a political tool.”
The back-to-back statements also follow a blistering op-ed by retired Navy Adm. William McRaven, who, in an act of solidarity with Brennan, appealed to Trump to revoke his security clearance, as well.
Quote:
Harlow called it exceedingly rare for intelligence professionals who spent most of their careers in the shadows and who shy away from politically charged public disputes to insert themselves so directly.
“There have been one or two other times where I recall a bunch of people speaking out, but not in this number and not at this speed,” Harlow told POLITICO. “They are trying to speak out against politicizing national security and security clearances. This is not about a person. It is about the practice of trying to regulate speech by former officials by tinkering with their security clearances.”
“There are rules and regulations under which circumstances they should be removed,” he added. “None say they should be removed if the holder of the security clearance annoys the president.”
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:52 am Post subject:
adkindo wrote:
Hector the Pup wrote:
Fallout wrote:
Hector the Pup wrote:
I don't think people really understand what revoking security clearance does. It's not a petty thing. It's actually huge. It cuts that person off from consulting on future moves based on first hand experience. Self inflicted brain drain.
Its exactly that, cutting their income off. And he now wants to revoke a current DOJ employee? GOP is a party of spineless people.
.
They don't get paid for consulting or if they do it's not much. It's removing a source of experience from the field.
Just an example. McRaven asked Trump to revoke his clearance in an op ed article a couple of days ago as a show of solidarity with those who have had theirs maliciously revoked. He was in charge of JSOC which is basically the all star team of the U.S. special forces and intelligence agencies. He also ran the seal team 6 operation that killed bin Laden. He's retired but his experience is invaluable. As it stands people who are in a similar position as the ones he once held could pick up the phone and get his input on situations similar to ones he has had and as a patriot he would happily give it. Take away his clearance and that is no longer an option. You just nuked 40 years of operational experience as a resource. Now multiply it by.however many clearances he has revoked.
Now just for fun add in every unelected person who has been fired or quit because of the current administration. We're talking about literally thousands of years of experience flushed down the toilet.
Brennan is not paid well by NBC and MSNBC? How many times did the Trump administration "consult" with John Brennan? How many times in the future would the Trump Administration "consult" with John Brennan. It is a rhetorical question in that my assumption is after Brennan jumped into the arena of partisan hot takes, his service was unlikely to ever be sought by the Trump Administration. A different administration can reinstate his clearance if it feels he adds value.
Also, was mildly disgusted by the actions of many in the intelligence community after Brennan's clearance was revoked. I understand their displeasure of the administrations actions, but what was their goal in offering their clearance to be revoked? They claim they offer this great and needed value to the future security of the country, but they prefer to not offer that service to their country to make a point for the "intelligence community" at best.....a partisan political point at worst. Have whatever opinion you choose of the Trump administration or any politician, but to see former intelligence and military leaders act in such a selfish manner should be seen as a sad day for all Americans. They chose to make a point...regardless of their motivations or even its morality over serving the people of this country.
It would seem you would be using the standard trump tactic of placing blame for his actions on the reactions of others. To wit, trump has made egregious breaches of ethics, protocol, and procedure, for which he has been called to task by guys like Brennan, as he should be in a free democracy. So he then seeks to undermine them (and their ability to assist the investigation of him, remember that every guy in the list is a likely witness), removes them from the brain bank (they are consulted often by their successors btw), and then gets rebuked in an honorary show of solidarity (the idea here isn’t to get their security clearances revoked, but to demonstrate how far and wide and serious the support is), and you go after them. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:58 am Post subject:
Fwiw, Brennan is a conservative, as are comey, mueller, rosenstein, and many others. He has not been engaged in partisan hot takes (that’s a tell btw, when anyone disagreeing with dear leader is reduced to a partisan), but rather strong disagreement with an out of control novice. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:00 am Post subject:
kikanga wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Brennan is not paid well by NBC and MSNBC? How many times did the Trump administration "consult" with John Brennan? How many times in the future would the Trump Administration "consult" with John Brennan. It is a rhetorical question in that my assumption is after Brennan jumped into the arena of partisan hot takes, his service was unlikely to ever be sought by the Trump Administration. A different administration can reinstate his clearance if it feels he adds value.
Also, was mildly disgusted by the actions of many in the intelligence community after Brennan's clearance was revoked. I understand their displeasure of the administrations actions, but what was their goal in offering their clearance to be revoked? They claim they offer this great and needed value to the future security of the country, but they prefer to not offer that service to their country to make a point for the "intelligence community" at best.....a partisan political point at worst. Have whatever opinion you choose of the Trump administration or any politician, but to see former intelligence and military leaders act in such a selfish manner should be seen as a sad day for all Americans. They chose to make a point...regardless of their motivations or even its morality over serving the people of this country.
It's tough for me to separate our Commander in Chief from the intelligence agencies he is in charge of.
Correct me if I'm wrong. But it seems like you are judging the intelligence community in a vacuum. Your assessment is fair if you apply it to the 44 Presidents who preceded Trump. But #45 longs to be a dictator. He envies the dictators he meets. He thinks the AG should protect him personally. He thinks dissenting opinion is treasonous.
He openly questions and denigrates the intelligence community. Pretty much Trump has been spitting in the intelligence communities face (and the media) the past 3 years and now both are standing up for themselves.
Also, are we really better off as a country having a President who needs babysitters?
Is it really the greater good having people that work FOR the President, constantly saving him from his own disastrous ideas?
Where we have to rely on the judicial branch to stop racist bans and human caging?
I dunno. Omar tried to convince me a couple pages back. But I'm not sure.
It's dangerous keeping the disaster show afloat. The guy is ignorant, volatile, and unqualified.
Maybe every high ranking military official should resign and testify on why they are doing so.
I feel like there are a 100 things I could respond to in your post....or give it a try....but the last one goes to the heart of my statement. I disagree.....those individuals have to remain above the partisan element of government and their primary obligation must remain serving the people of the nation. None of those individuals were given orders to take action that is illegal or would have a negative impact on the citizens of the United States. I found nothing they did to be patriotic or courageous.....but little more than a protest when something happened they disliked. They very much were mostly using political strategy and hyperbole as cover for they were more upset that something has made them "special" and given them "access" to more than just information was now possibly on the table and could be taken from them. I expect more from those individuals, and yes this is regardless of who has political power, or how we view the behavior of politicians.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
