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Hector the Pup
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:04 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Let me be clear about my angle here.....I did not vote for Trump.....I do not like Trump....he often says things that I find to be an embarrassment to the office he holds, and on top of that I am not crazy about some of his policies. At the same time, I am not please about what took place in the Justice Department since 2016, and I am 99% sure that there was no collusion with the Russian government. In a sense, I feel like a conservative without a home, but I also have never felt more free to speak my truth. I feel strongly that more damage is being done to this country by the actions of those in the Obama Justice department in his final months than could ever be accomplished by policies that could get through Congress and the current administration.


Right up until there you sounded rational, then it all went off the tracks straight into Fox News/Right Wing disinformation talking points.


that is the issue of the day....my opinion, my source of news, my talking points are rational......anyone who does not share my opinion, gets news from a different source, and has different talking points equates to irrational.

I could provide 100's of points to support my thoughts.....and I am sure you would have 100's of rebuttals for those points. It is probably in both of our best interests, and the value of our time to just acknowledge we disagree.....or strongly disagree in some areas of all that makes up the special council investigation.

I will say this.....if Mueller finds material acts of collusion involving the president......I will be pleased. If Mueller does not find material acts of collusion involving the president, I will still be pleased. I do not get the feeling most liberals can make that claim.....I actually think my dear mother may lose her mind if Mueller finds no evidence against Trump.


Then it's simple. Provide your 100% facts.
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ChefLinda
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:06 pm    Post subject:

New York Times
Boston Globe
Washington Post
L.A. Times
Chicago-Tribune
NBC
ABC
CBS

Fox News

One of these things is not like the others. There is no both sides are the same. Rudy was wrong about there being no truth. There is objective truth. And that's what I want to come out. Hopefully through the Mueller investigation and subsequent reports, trials and under oath testimony. But there is a great deal we already know through extensive investigative reporting and documentation. And much of it reflects very poorly on Trump and his propensity to lie. We'll see which side was more accurate on the whole.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:10 pm    Post subject:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/19/politics/rudy-giuliani-trump-tower-meeting-clinton-dirt/index.html

Oh look. Trump lawyer admitting to a meeting with a foreign adversary about opposition intelligence. That's just called treason
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:29 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Fwiw, Brennan is a conservative, as are comey, mueller, rosenstein, and many others. He has not been engaged in partisan hot takes (that’s a tell btw, when anyone disagreeing with dear leader is reduced to a partisan), but rather strong disagreement with an out of control novice.


no, this is not a hot take....

Quote:
John O. Brennan @JohnBrennan
Donald Trump’s press conference performance in Helsinki rises to & exceeds the threshold of “high crimes & misdemeanors.” It was nothing short of treasonous. Not only were Trump’s comments imbecilic, he is wholly in the pocket of Putin. Republican Patriots: Where are you???

11:52 AM - Jul 16, 2018


I think this is a response to Trump’s comment:
"I have great confidence in my intelligence people, but I will tell you that President Putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today," Trump said during a joint news conference after he spent about two hours in a room alone with Putin, save for a pair of interpreters.

This comment by Brennan was echoed by other Republicans also. Do you think this is a ‘hot take’ because it criticizes the president? Or do u have a problem with the use of the word treasonous?

Remember, this comment made by Brennan was prior to Trump saying he ‘misspoke’ about his comment above
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:12 pm    Post subject:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/officials-defend-plan-close-almost-195106464.html

Republicans are back at it
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:02 pm    Post subject:

Might be fair to point out that no one would take the time and effort to mount such a concerted, relentless effort to stall, obfuscate, obstruct, and kill an investigation into affairs that never happened. Not to mention the constant need to change the story on everything (the trump tower meeting being the epitome) as each version is proven untrue.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:21 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Might be fair to point out that no one would take the time and effort to mount such a concerted, relentless effort to stall, obfuscate, obstruct, and kill an investigation into affairs that never happened. Not to mention the constant need to change the story on everything (the trump tower meeting being the epitome) as each version is proven untrue.


Trump is a completely innocent victim of a massive deep state conspiracy between Obama, Clinton, FBI, DOJ, Mueller, the Democrats and Russia to install Hillary Clinton as President by keeping quiet about Trump-Russia connections before election while playing up phony email story so Trump could be elected, then subsequently framed so Hillary could finally take her rightful place as head of the Obama-Clinton cabal in 2020.

Makes perfect sense. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:48 pm    Post subject:

NYT: Cohen, Trump’s Ex-Lawyer (Michael Cohen), Investigated for Bank Fraud in Excess of $20 Million

Quote:
Federal authorities investigating whether President Trump’s former personal lawyer and fixer, Michael D. Cohen, committed bank and tax fraud have zeroed in on well over $20 million in loans obtained by taxi businesses that he and his family own, according to people familiar with the matter.

Investigators are also examining whether Mr. Cohen violated campaign finance or other laws by helping to arrange financial deals to secure the silence of women who said they had affairs with Mr. Trump. The inquiry has entered the final stage and prosecutors are considering filing charges by the end of August, two of the people said.

Any criminal charges against Mr. Cohen would deal a significant blow to the president. Mr. Cohen, 52, worked for the president’s company, the Trump Organization, for more than a decade. He was one of Mr. Trump’s most loyal and visible aides and called himself the president’s personal lawyer after Mr. Trump took office.


Quote:
At this late stage of the inquiry, it is still possible that Mr. Cohen may plead guilty rather than face an indictment. He has hinted publicly and has stated explicitly in private that he is eager to tell prosecutors what he knows in exchange for leniency.

A cooperation agreement would likely include a provision that Mr. Cohen also provide information to the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, who is investigating possible involvement by the Trump campaign in Russia’s meddling in the 2016 election.

It is unclear whether the prosecutors and Mr. Cohen’s lawyers have had detailed discussions about a potential cooperation deal, but it is unlikely that the government would bring charges without having done so.


What a coincidence that so may people closely connected to Trump are being prosecuted for financial crimes.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:04 pm    Post subject:

It's pretty ironic looking back over the last 20 years and seeing how many people deeply trust and defend the same intelligence apparatus that W used to drag us into two wars. They're probably right about Trump, but I still don't trust any of these people.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:31 pm    Post subject:

DuncanIdaho wrote:
It's pretty ironic looking back over the last 20 years and seeing how many people deeply trust and defend the same intelligence apparatus that W used to drag us into two wars. They're probably right about Trump, but I still don't trust any of these people.


I get that but we have never had pretty much everyone saying that what is going on is effed up. .the big players who would usually sit out a partisan fight are going all in. That's not normal
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ChefLinda
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:37 pm    Post subject:

DuncanIdaho wrote:
It's pretty ironic looking back over the last 20 years and seeing how many people deeply trust and defend the same intelligence apparatus that W used to drag us into two wars. They're probably right about Trump, but I still don't trust any of these people.


There are a couple of separate issues:

Intelligence gathering organizations should be subject to basic democratic rules, laws and guidelines and should have some congressional and judicial oversight to make sure they comply.

Politicizing any part of the process usually has a bad outcome.

W and Cheney cherry-picking intelligence data to justify war -- bad.
Trump politicizing process by attacking the investigation -- bad.
Trump trying to handpick Intelligence heads to protect him -- bad.
Congressional Republicans cherry picking data to protect Trump and hamstring investigation -- bad.
W administration justifying torture and giving green light to CIA -- bad.
Comey email announcement right before the election -- bad (I have come to think this was bad judgement rather than political motive)

I think the bulk of the career people are just trying to do their job under the the legal framework we have in place. It's the politicization of the process, not necessarily the institutions themselves that are the problem.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:05 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
It's pretty ironic looking back over the last 20 years and seeing how many people deeply trust and defend the same intelligence apparatus that W used to drag us into two wars. They're probably right about Trump, but I still don't trust any of these people.


There are a couple of separate issues:

Intelligence gathering organizations should be subject to basic democratic rules, laws and guidelines and should have some congressional and judicial oversight to make sure they comply.

Politicizing any part of the process usually has a bad outcome.

W and Cheney cherry-picking intelligence data to justify war -- bad.
Trump politicizing process by attacking the investigation -- bad.
Trump trying to handpick Intelligence heads to protect him -- bad.
Congressional Republicans cherry picking data to protect Trump and hamstring investigation -- bad.
W administration justifying torture and giving green light to CIA -- bad.
Comey email announcement right before the election -- bad (I have come to think this was bad judgement rather than political motive)

I think the bulk of the career people are just trying to do their job under the the legal framework we have in place. It's the politicization of the process, not necessarily the institutions themselves that are the problem.


This is a good post, but I especially agree with the bold. Most civil servants are there through multiple administrations, which makes the current administrations' gutting of the various departments all the more concerning.

Those who head these organizations, however, are usually political by default.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:27 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
I am 99% sure that there was no collusion with the Russian government.


Quote:
British-born Goldstone adds in the exchange of 3 June 2016: “This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr Trump.”

Seventeen minutes later, Trump Jr welcomes this with the reply: “If it’s what you say, I love it, especially later in the summer.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/11/donald-trump-jr-email-chain-russia-hillary-clinton

I harbor no ill will toward you adkindo.
But you are propagating bull (bleep).
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:29 pm    Post subject:

DuncanIdaho wrote:
It's pretty ironic looking back over the last 20 years and seeing how many people deeply trust and defend the same intelligence apparatus that W used to drag us into two wars. They're probably right about Trump, but I still don't trust any of these people.


It's pretty ironic looking back over the last 20 years and seeing how many conservatives deeply trust and defend Russia.
Ronald Reagan would be so proud.
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Last edited by kikanga on Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:56 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:36 pm    Post subject:

When did the deep state frame Trump for collusion and obstruction of justice? I get the timeline confused.
Did they drug Trump and Guiliani to make them willingly admit to lying, obstruction, and conspiracy (in multiple interviews) first. Or was the drugging after we faked the moon landing and transported Elvis to Jupiter.
I'm sure Qanon explained the timeline. But I forgot.
Wait. 9/11 was faked. Sandyhook was faked. THEN the deep state framed Donald after forging Barack's birth certificate, right?

The only thing worse than believing in this crap, is knowing it's fake. And still spreading it.
Extra credit to those who feign objectiveness and say "the Dems are just as bad".
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:22 am    Post subject:

When the sentencing for Popadopoulos was brought up they mentioned how upset Mueller was with his lies

Quote:

The memo said that Mr. Papadopoulos’s attempts to mislead the F.B.I. had a significant effect on the open investigation into whether President Trump or his advisers coordinated with Russia’s attempts to disrupt the 2016 presidential election.

“The defendant lied in order to conceal his contacts with Russians and Russian intermediaries during the campaign,” the memo said


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/17/us/politics/trump-mueller-papadopoulos-russia.html

^^Fits 90% of Swamp Trump
Oh noes. 6 months for lying to FBI during one of most important investigations ever...

Just start stripping these Trumpians of their citizenship and drop them off at the border
Obvious they don't respect America
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ChefLinda
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:39 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
adkindo wrote:
I am 99% sure that there was no collusion with the Russian government.


Quote:
British-born Goldstone adds in the exchange of 3 June 2016: “This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr Trump.”

Seventeen minutes later, Trump Jr welcomes this with the reply: “If it’s what you say, I love it, especially later in the summer.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/11/donald-trump-jr-email-chain-russia-hillary-clinton

I harbor no ill will toward you adkindo.
But you are propagating bull (bleep).


Some more of the timeline:

- Trump is briefed by US intelligence that Russia is attempting to interfere with the presidential campaign.

- George P is told Russia has hacked emails and dirt on Clinton

- Trump Jr receives email stating Russia has dirt on Clinton and wants to help Trump

- Trump at a national press conference, "Russia, if you're listening, it would be great if you could find Clinton emails."

- Russian intelligence immediately begins probing Clinton private emails.

- WikiLeaks begins dumping hacked emails. Trump immediately incorporates it into his stump speech, "We love WikiLeaks! Did you see what they released today?"

- WikiLeaks was working with Russian intelligence. Roger Stone was in direct contact with Fancy Bear (fake hacker name that was a front for GRU Russian Intelligence). Roger says Podesta's time in the barrel is coming.

- In national debate, Trump denies that Russia hacked DNC emails, "Could be China or 400 lb guy."

- Trump campaign had 97+ contacts with Russians during the campaign and either covered them up or lied about them, including Kushner, Jr, Manafort, George P, Cohen, Sessions, Prince, Flynn.

- Constant shifting of stories, especially Trump Tower meeting. Trump wrote the cover-up lie that the meeting was only about adoptions. If they didn't do anything wrong, why did they have to lie about it?

This is just off the top of my head. Can you imagine how much more Mueller knows?

Anyone who looks at what is already publicly known and comes to the conclusion that they are 99% certain there was no collusion needs to go back to school and take a Logic 101 class. They were colluding in plain sight. It's all right there.

- Russia wanted to help Trump win (Putin admitted this at Helsinki).

- Trump knew Russia wanted to help him win (through various meetings, phone calls and emails with Russian operatives).

- Trump used Russian disinformation and hacked emails as part of his campaign. In other words, he accepted their help.

- Mueller already indicted dozens of Russians for a criminal conspiracy against the United States for interfering in the U.S. election.

- Did anyone on the Trump campaign participate as defined below?

Quote:
Conspiracy:

A criminal conspiracy exists when two or more people agree to commit almost any unlawful act, then take some action toward its completion. The action taken need not itself be a crime, but it must indicate that those involved in the conspiracy knew of the plan and intended to break the law. One person may be charged with and convicted of both conspiracy and the underlying crime based on the same circumstances.

For example, Andy, Dan, and Alice plan a bank robbery. They 1) visit the bank first to assess security, 2) pool their money and buy a gun together, and 3) write a demand letter. All three can be charged with conspiracy to commit robbery, regardless of whether the robbery itself is actually attempted or completed.

The "Agreement" Requirement

You might be wondering how exactly the agreement between two co-conspirators actually takes place. First, the agreement does not need to be expressly conveyed. For instance, in the above example, Andy isn't required to tell Dan and Alice in unequivocal terms, "I agree to commit a conspiracy with you," (although, that statement would surely be a prosecutor's dream and strong evidence of a criminal conspiracy).

Instead, the agreement may be implicit or shown by the action of "two or more guilty minds," as required under common law. Examples of evidence of an implicit agreement can include the appearance of the co-defendants at transactions and negotiations in furtherance of the conspiracy such as a planning meeting.

It is important to note that courts have found that mere presence or association with those committing a crime doesn't, by itself, make someone a co-conspirator unless there are other factors that collectively point to an implicit agreement.

The Element of "Intent"

As with other specific intent crimes, your intention means everything. But that's not the only intent the court will care about. Not only does one other individual in the conspiracy need to intend to agree, all parties must intend to achieve the outcome.

Simply put, knowledge of a crime isn't enough to get you thrown behind bars. For instance, just because your friend tells you he is going to burglarize a house, doesn't mean you are part of the conspiracy to burglarize it. Not unless you also agree to help by acting as a getaway car or helping him scope out the property ahead of time.


That's my layperson's simplistic case just using the internet. What do you think Mueller will be able to do in court?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:56 am    Post subject:

More stories from Cult Land or example 1,065 on why the Democratic Party should not waste time chasing after these people:

Obama Helped Save This Town. Trump May Trash It. They Don’t Care.

Quote:
Obama’s stimulus helped save Elkhart, Indiana. Trump’s tariffs may kill its growth. But the people here are willing to give Trump the benefit of the doubt, for now.


Quote:
Like countless towns throughout the industrial midwest, Elkhart is grappling with an aggressive, protectionist economic policy from the president. But what makes the city different from the rest is the unique lore it enjoys in the country’s recent political narrative.

Before it began bracing for the impact of Trump’s trade wars, Elkhart was the shining example of former President Barack Obama’s stimulus package. It was during the 2008 Democratic primary that the then-senator from Illinois first came to northern Indiana. He would return again in the general election.

After that second visit, the financial crisis hit. Suddenly, few people had the disposable income to buy a mobile home, leaving the mainstay of Elkhart’s economy hobbled. The city, which has nearly 100 RV manufacturers and 400 RV suppliers, was decimated. Unemployment shot up to 20 percent. Obama’s solution was a massive recovery act that he said would jump-start spending and recharge the markets. And, as president, he decided to go back to Elkhart again to pitch the idea. It was the first city that he visited after assuming office.


Quote:
But Elkhart never embraced him or his policies. The city had voted ever-so-slightly for Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) in the 2008 election. By 2012, Mitt Romney won 62 percent of the vote in Elkhart County. In 2016, Trump trounced Hillary Clinton with 64 percent of the city’s vote. And even today, as the impact of tariffs looms over the city, voters seem perfectly content with their political choices.


Quote:
“Trump is sort of bulletproof here because of the results,” said Dan Holtz, the Elkhart County Republican Party Chair. “There is no other Republican who comes to mind in the last 30 years who has anywhere near the courage of Donald Trump. To say that courage in a leader engenders allegiance is a trite statement in human history. Of course it does. You can sit back and say, that’s it; 100 percent of it. His courage endears fierce allegiance.”

Why Elkhart’s voters have proven willing to stand by a president who may endanger their economic boom and unwilling to reward one who he says helped them during a time of economic despair, is a complicated question with a variety of answers.

Political tribalism—the notion that you’re part of a team and must defend it even if it's counter to your financial well-being or ideology—plays a role.


Black president helps save their economy -- eh, whatever.
White president threatens their livelihoods -- we trust him!

The Trump "courage" to which they speak can only refer to one thing IMO -- his "courage" to speak his racism out loud rather than hiding it in dog whistles like previous Republicans.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:33 am    Post subject:

It all feels/looks like the Special Olympics pulled a Prank on us when I see these politicians calling Trump a leader
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:48 am    Post subject:

I'm sorry Trump supporters, you shouldn't even trust this guy to watch your kids for 5 minutes much less occupy the oval office. On top of everything else, his brain function is obviously deteriorating rapidly.

Quote:
Daniel Dale Verified account @ddale8

Here's the transcript of Trump's remarks at a New York fundraiser last week about coal and windmills.




If you got up in front of your elementary school class to give your report on coal energy and windmill energy and delivered this nonsense, not only would get an F from the teacher, the kids would laugh you out of class.

#CountingTheDaysTilThisLivingNightmareIsFinallyOver
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:51 am    Post subject:

Good lord.

You can't parody a parody.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:39 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
adkindo wrote:
I am 99% sure that there was no collusion with the Russian government.


Quote:
British-born Goldstone adds in the exchange of 3 June 2016: “This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr Trump.”

Seventeen minutes later, Trump Jr welcomes this with the reply: “If it’s what you say, I love it, especially later in the summer.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/11/donald-trump-jr-email-chain-russia-hillary-clinton

I harbor no ill will toward you adkindo.
But you are propagating bull (bleep).


Chance for his reformation

Let him/her read some of this link
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/first-read/team-trump-still-isn-t-telling-truth-about-2016-trump-n902146

Quote:
Indeed, the June 3, 2016 email that publicist Rob Goldstone sent Donald Trump. Jr. about the meeting specifically said it was “part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump.”

GOLDSTONE: Emin [Agalarov] just called and asked me to contact you with something very interesting. The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father. This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump - helped along by Aras and Emin. What do you think is the best way to handle this information and would you be able to speak to Emin about it directly? (Emphasis is ours.)

DONALD TRUMP JR: Thanks Rob I appreciate that. I am on the road at the moment but perhaps I just speak to Emin first. Seems we have some time and if it's what you say I love it especially later in the summer. Could we do a call first thing next week when I am back?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:48 am    Post subject:

When I read some of the posts by Trump supporters I understand why FaceBook and like is so dangerous. Michael Moore - The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:55 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
When I read some of the posts by Trump supporters I understand why FaceBook and like is so dangerous. Michael Moore - The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America



The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America, Revised and Abridged Edition by Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt

Oops.. Published 1999

Im lacking sleep and not high enough yet
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:23 am    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
jodeke wrote:
When I read some of the posts by Trump supporters I understand why FaceBook and like is so dangerous. Michael Moore - The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America



The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America, Revised and Abridged Edition by Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt

Oops.. Published 1999

Im lacking sleep and not high enough yet

Meant The Dumbing Down of America mentioned by Michael Moore.
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