| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24
|
 Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Hector the Pup wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Also, Manafort jury has asked about the ramifications of being hung on a single count. Implies they are together on most. Barriers being put up outside the court. |
When I hear something like that, it disturbs me because there are only two reasons for them to be asking at this stage. Either the jury instructions were poorly explained or the jurors themselves are incapable of understanding them. |
In fairness, the judge read them instructions for two hours and refused to give them a transcript. I was just talking to an attorney friend of mine and he says it's fairly common in a case with multiple disparate counts for the jury to be deadlocked on one or two, and not know what to do.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
kikanga
Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29347
Location: La La Land
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
Trump right now is at 42/52 approval vs disapproval.
On Nov. 1 2010 Barack was at 45/47.
I see no reason why Trump will make up the difference before midterms.
_________________
"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Last edited by kikanga on Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:02 am; edited 3 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
Jurors apparently often conflate the fact that they must unanimously agree on a charge to mean they have to agree on all of them.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChefLinda
Moderator
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 24166
Location: Boston
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Hector the Pup wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Also, Manafort jury has asked about the ramifications of being hung on a single count. Implies they are together on most. Barriers being put up outside the court. |
When I hear something like that, it disturbs me because there are only two reasons for them to be asking at this stage. Either the jury instructions were poorly explained or the jurors themselves are incapable of understanding them. |
Having been on a few juries, it sounds to me like one person is a holdout for "not guilty" and they are horsetrading with him to give him one count in his favor in exchange for voting guilty on the others. Just a guess, but I've see it happen. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChefLinda
Moderator
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 24166
Location: Boston
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Omar Little wrote: | | Jurors apparently often conflate the fact that they must unanimously agree on a charge to mean they have to agree on all of them. |
Yes, this too. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ChefLinda wrote: | | Hector the Pup wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Also, Manafort jury has asked about the ramifications of being hung on a single count. Implies they are together on most. Barriers being put up outside the court. |
When I hear something like that, it disturbs me because there are only two reasons for them to be asking at this stage. Either the jury instructions were poorly explained or the jurors themselves are incapable of understanding them. |
Having been on a few juries, it sounds to me like one person is a holdout for "not guilty" and they are horsetrading with him to give him one count in his favor in exchange for voting guilty on the others. Just a guess, but I've see it happen. |
Based on the wording, I don't think so. This sounds like they are hung on one or two of the weaker charges. I highly doubt they would get a Trump loyalist who wants to let Manafort go across the board to sign on for guilty on most of the charges with a symbolic not guilty on one or two.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67716
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
Feels like a Trump supporter hold out. If it is this will be a hung jury. Where's Dr Bull when you need him?
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Lebrons
Star Player
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 4778
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: | | Feels like a Trump supporter hold out. If it is this will be a hung jury. Where's Dr Bull when you need him? |
It sounds like it's only one count. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChefLinda
Moderator
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 24166
Location: Boston
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Omar Little wrote: | | This just in. Cohen is in plea and cooperation negotiations. |
| Quote: | Katherine Faulders Verified account @KFaulders
NEW: @ABC has learned that Michael Cohen has entered into a plea agreement with federal prosecutors in the Southern District of New York. |
Plea agreement. Watch for bigger than usual Trump meltdown, especially if Manafort guilty verdict comes down today too. Trump will burn it all down because he only cares about himself. Congratulations Republicans/Conservatives/TrumpEnablers. But god forbid former intelligence professionals point out how crazy this all is and beg people to put out the fire. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67716
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| The Lebrons wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | Feels like a Trump supporter hold out. If it is this will be a hung jury. Where's Dr Bull when you need him? |
It sounds like it's only one count. |
So, if it's only one count and guilty on all others does that eliminate a hung jury?
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChefLinda
Moderator
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 24166
Location: Boston
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Omar Little wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | Hector the Pup wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Also, Manafort jury has asked about the ramifications of being hung on a single count. Implies they are together on most. Barriers being put up outside the court. |
When I hear something like that, it disturbs me because there are only two reasons for them to be asking at this stage. Either the jury instructions were poorly explained or the jurors themselves are incapable of understanding them. |
Having been on a few juries, it sounds to me like one person is a holdout for "not guilty" and they are horsetrading with him to give him one count in his favor in exchange for voting guilty on the others. Just a guess, but I've see it happen. |
Based on the wording, I don't think so. This sounds like they are hung on one or two of the weaker charges. I highly doubt they would get a Trump loyalist who wants to let Manafort go across the board to sign on for guilty on most of the charges with a symbolic not guilty on one or two. |
Maybe. But I've been on juries where that precise thing happened. It allows the holdout juror to save face with the other jurors. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChefLinda
Moderator
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 24166
Location: Boston
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
Ex-Trump lawyer Michael Cohen reaches plea deal with prosecutors
| Quote: | Michael Cohen, President Trump's former personal attorney, has reached a plea deal with federal prosecutors, multiple sources familiar with the matter tell NBC News.
Cohen will plead guilty to charges stemming from a federal investigation in New York. A hearing in the Cohen case has been scheduled at federal court in Manhattan for 4 p.m. Tuesday.
The plea could have significant implications for Trump, who has blasted Cohen ever since his former fixer and his attorney, old Clinton hand Lanny Davis, began signaling this summer that Cohen might cooperate with special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation. |
Expected to plead guilty to tax fraud, bank fraud and campaign finance related violation - per MSNBC reporter with contacts. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hector the Pup
Retired Number
Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 35946
Location: L.A.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChefLinda
Moderator
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 24166
Location: Boston
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | Michael Avenatti Verified account @MichaelAvenatti
The developments of today will permit us to have the stay lifted in the civil case & should also permit us to proceed with an expedited deposition of Trump under oath about what he knew, when he knew it, and what he did about it. We will disclose it all to the public. |
I don't know if this would happen, but seeing Trump under oath under any circumstance would be extremely awesome. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tlim
Star Player
Joined: 26 Jun 2002
Posts: 6649
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ChefLinda wrote: | | Quote: | Michael Avenatti Verified account @MichaelAvenatti
The developments of today will permit us to have the stay lifted in the civil case & should also permit us to proceed with an expedited deposition of Trump under oath about what he knew, when he knew it, and what he did about it. We will disclose it all to the public. |
I don't know if this would happen, but seeing Trump under oath under any circumstance would be extremely awesome. |
Like watching Nascar racing, waiting for the accidents to happen... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52657
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| tlim wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | Quote: | Michael Avenatti Verified account @MichaelAvenatti
The developments of today will permit us to have the stay lifted in the civil case & should also permit us to proceed with an expedited deposition of Trump under oath about what he knew, when he knew it, and what he did about it. We will disclose it all to the public. |
I don't know if this would happen, but seeing Trump under oath under any circumstance would be extremely awesome. |
Like watching Nascar racing, waiting for the accidents to happen... |
Mass pileup at the first turn.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67716
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ChefLinda wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | Hector the Pup wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Also, Manafort jury has asked about the ramifications of being hung on a single count. Implies they are together on most. Barriers being put up outside the court. |
When I hear something like that, it disturbs me because there are only two reasons for them to be asking at this stage. Either the jury instructions were poorly explained or the jurors themselves are incapable of understanding them. |
Having been on a few juries, it sounds to me like one person is a holdout for "not guilty" and they are horsetrading with him to give him one count in his favor in exchange for voting guilty on the others. Just a guess, but I've see it happen. |
Based on the wording, I don't think so. This sounds like they are hung on one or two of the weaker charges. I highly doubt they would get a Trump loyalist who wants to let Manafort go across the board to sign on for guilty on most of the charges with a symbolic not guilty on one or two. |
Maybe. But I've been on juries where that precise thing happened. It allows the holdout juror to save face with the other jurors. |
That would be a strong point if we weren't talking about a supposed Trump supporter. I don't think they care what others think.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67716
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
WOW just WOW Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt. Trump spoke out.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jodeke wrote: | | The Lebrons wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | Feels like a Trump supporter hold out. If it is this will be a hung jury. Where's Dr Bull when you need him? |
It sounds like it's only one count. |
So, if it's only one count and guilty on all others does that eliminate a hung jury? |
A jury can be hung on one count and not on another. They are required to render a unanimous verdict to each charge, but not to all charges in aggregate. They can convict on some, acquit on others, and fail to reach a verdict on still others if they choose.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ChefLinda wrote: | Ex-Trump lawyer Michael Cohen reaches plea deal with prosecutors
| Quote: | Michael Cohen, President Trump's former personal attorney, has reached a plea deal with federal prosecutors, multiple sources familiar with the matter tell NBC News.
Cohen will plead guilty to charges stemming from a federal investigation in New York. A hearing in the Cohen case has been scheduled at federal court in Manhattan for 4 p.m. Tuesday.
The plea could have significant implications for Trump, who has blasted Cohen ever since his former fixer and his attorney, old Clinton hand Lanny Davis, began signaling this summer that Cohen might cooperate with special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation. |
Expected to plead guilty to tax fraud, bank fraud and campaign finance related violation - per MSNBC reporter with contacts. |
FWIW, the current head of the southern district is a trump appointee who was pushed by giuliani. So there's a strong possibility here that Cohen is pleading and getting a preferential deal to essentially take him off the table, with a pardon or commutation to come later.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ChefLinda wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | Hector the Pup wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Also, Manafort jury has asked about the ramifications of being hung on a single count. Implies they are together on most. Barriers being put up outside the court. |
When I hear something like that, it disturbs me because there are only two reasons for them to be asking at this stage. Either the jury instructions were poorly explained or the jurors themselves are incapable of understanding them. |
Having been on a few juries, it sounds to me like one person is a holdout for "not guilty" and they are horsetrading with him to give him one count in his favor in exchange for voting guilty on the others. Just a guess, but I've see it happen. |
Based on the wording, I don't think so. This sounds like they are hung on one or two of the weaker charges. I highly doubt they would get a Trump loyalist who wants to let Manafort go across the board to sign on for guilty on most of the charges with a symbolic not guilty on one or two. |
Maybe. But I've been on juries where that precise thing happened. It allows the holdout juror to save face with the other jurors. |
Not in a case where the juror is politically motivated to acquit I'm guessing. There would be no face saving for a juror who wants to let him walk if they convict on 17 of 18 counts.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Appears Cohen will be pleading to campaign finance violations, bank fraud and tax fraud. Will be facing a hefty fine and jail time. Negotiations apparently are down to how much, Cohen seeking three years and the feds 50 months. Feels a bit like theater. Cohen takes a light rap and is off the table for Mueller, possible pardon down the line.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Seth Abramson
?
Verified account
@SethAbramson
1m1 minute ago
More
BREAKING: Manafort Jury Reaches Verdict on 8 of 18 Counts, Deadlocked on Others
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
That sounds very reasonable in a very complicated case with a judge who made it especially difficult.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ContagiousInspiration
Franchise Player
Joined: 07 May 2014
Posts: 13823
Location: Boulder ;)
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Omar Little wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | Hector the Pup wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Also, Manafort jury has asked about the ramifications of being hung on a single count. Implies they are together on most. Barriers being put up outside the court. |
When I hear something like that, it disturbs me because there are only two reasons for them to be asking at this stage. Either the jury instructions were poorly explained or the jurors themselves are incapable of understanding them. |
Having been on a few juries, it sounds to me like one person is a holdout for "not guilty" and they are horsetrading with him to give him one count in his favor in exchange for voting guilty on the others. Just a guess, but I've see it happen. |
Based on the wording, I don't think so. This sounds like they are hung on one or two of the weaker charges. I highly doubt they would get a Trump loyalist who wants to let Manafort go across the board to sign on for guilty on most of the charges with a symbolic not guilty on one or two. |
Maybe. But I've been on juries where that precise thing happened. It allows the holdout juror to save face with the other jurors. |
Not in a case where the juror is politically motivated to acquit I'm guessing. There would be no face saving for a juror who wants to let him walk if they convict on 17 of 18 counts. |
Does the legal system keep watch on Jurors during trial for cases like this
If there is a trumptilian in there causing bs.. can he be investigated for links to anything? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
