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ringfinger
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 Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | Thanks all. Appreciate the explanations.
It seems like someone is going to get screwed at some point. Either those in need now, or those in need later. |
It is a simple fix, but when one party is in lockstep, unrelenting, and bull-headed to the point that there can be no new taxes, then the fix gets difficult. |
What’s the fix? |
Raising the cap (while at the same time raising the max benefit) so that all income is taxed would just about do it. |
That makes sense to me. What’s the reasoning (even if its a bad one) for the cap? |
The reasoning is that there is a cap, a max, on the benefit amount one can receive in return, and that the payout to payback would be unfair for those with exorbitant incomes--you know the one's who continue to earn more and more and more, while nearly everyone else spins their wheels. |
Doesn’t seem much different to me than a progressive tax system. Appreciate your feedback on this. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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Whenever conservatives pretend they might vote for someone running against Trump if the Dems were just more moderate. I think of people like realking.
Appealing across the aisle is a fools errand. Turning out our base should be the goal. See 2018.
If some Dem Presidential candidates truly believe in more moderate policy, they should stay faithful to their convictions. But after seeing the midterms, it's obvious. The energy within the party is behind unapologetic progressive policy.
If Trump's incessant lying, growing underemployment, human rights abuses, racist and sexist statements, and tax cuts for the rich followed by cuts to entitlements isn't enough for someone to leave Trump. A moderate Dem isn't going to be the thing to convert them.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | Whenever conservatives pretend they might vote for someone running against Trump if the Dems were just more moderate. I think of people like realking.
Appealing across the aisle is a fools errand. Turning out our base should be the goal. See 2018.
If some Dem Presidential candidates truly believe in more moderate policy, they should stay faithful to their convictions. But after seeing the midterms, it's obvious. The energy within the party is behind unapologetic progressive policy.
If Trump's incessant lying, growing underemployment, human rights abuses, racist and sexist statements, and tax cuts for the rich followed by cuts to entitlements isn't enough for someone to leave Trump. A moderate Dem isn't going to be the thing to convert them. |
I don’t think either side is going to succeed appealing across most of the aisle, but I do think (because I consider myself and many of the folks I hang out with in it) that there is a significant contingent of people right there in the middle that in the simplest of terms, just want a candidate that promotes responsible capitalism without needlessly castigating the wealthy (because we do need them too) and in particular, and perhaps most importantly, stays far away from the identity politics stuff. |
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VicXLakers
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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Now that I've had a minute to look at where fox news gets their conspiracy theories
John F. Solomon
Solomon speaking at the Conservative Political Action Conference in Washington, D.C.
John F. Solomon is an American media executive and columnist. He is currently vice president of digital video and an opinion contributor for The Hill.[1] He is known primarily for his tenure as an executive and editor-in-chief at The Washington Times.[2] He has been accused[3] of biased reporting in favor of conservatives, and of repeatedly manufacturing faux scandals
The Washington Times has been known for its conservative political stance.[6][7][8][9] It has drawn controversy for publishing racist content, including commentary and conspiracy theories about United States president Barack Obama[10][11][12][13][14][15] and support for neo-Confederatism.[16] It has published material promoting Islamophobia.[17] It has published many columns which reject the scientific consensus on climate change,[18][19][20] as well as ozone depletion[21] and second-hand smoke.[22][23]
As Russia collusion fades, Ukrainian plot to help Clinton emerges
BY JOHN SOLOMON, OPINION CONTRIBUTOR — 03/20/19 07:30 PM EDT 2,907 THE VIEWS EXPRESSED BY CONTRIBUTORS ARE THEIR OWN AND NOT THE VIEW OF THE HILL
so this is what the republicans are rolling out to support that traitor trump? PLEASE
Realking24...talk to me...explain this |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | Whenever conservatives pretend they might vote for someone running against Trump if the Dems were just more moderate. I think of people like realking.
Appealing across the aisle is a fools errand. Turning out our base should be the goal. See 2018.
If some Dem Presidential candidates truly believe in more moderate policy, they should stay faithful to their convictions. But after seeing the midterms, it's obvious. The energy within the party is behind unapologetic progressive policy.
If Trump's incessant lying, growing underemployment, human rights abuses, racist and sexist statements, and tax cuts for the rich followed by cuts to entitlements isn't enough for someone to leave Trump. A moderate Dem isn't going to be the thing to convert them. |
I don’t think either side is going to succeed appealing across most of the aisle, but I do think (because I consider myself and many of the folks I hang out with in it) that there is a significant contingent of people right there in the middle that in the simplest of terms, just want a candidate that promotes responsible capitalism without needlessly castigating the wealthy (because we do need them too) and in particular, and perhaps most importantly, stays far away from the identity politics stuff. |
To you and your friends it may just be "identity politics stuff". But to a major part of the blue wave (that whooped the GOP's ass in 2018) it's their lives. They don't have the luxury to be on the outside looking in. And when AOC says stuff like "Student loans mean my "entire generation...is delaying or forgoing purchasing houses" or Lawmakers Should Lose Their Salaries Too When They Shut Down the Government or Why are billionaires who want to run for president never told to ‘work their way up’? it resonates on a personal sometimes life-defining level. Convincing fake moderates is a fools errand. Lets just do what we did in 2018 and drag conservatives and fake moderates into the future.
If someone doesn't have the integrity to leave a party that courts racists, sexists, bigots, etc. That person's vote isn't worth pursuing. And I'm not talking about what Republicans say. I'm talking about the policy they push. Going back to Goldwater.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| ^ Fair enough. I don’t think that is sound strategy, but there’s little point in discussing it so all good with agreeing to disagree. |
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VicXLakers
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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The rich ones do. But I don’t think the MAGA hatters do, if that’s who you mean by the average trump voter. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | Whenever conservatives pretend they might vote for someone running against Trump if the Dems were just more moderate. I think of people like realking.
Appealing across the aisle is a fools errand. Turning out our base should be the goal. See 2018.
If some Dem Presidential candidates truly believe in more moderate policy, they should stay faithful to their convictions. But after seeing the midterms, it's obvious. The energy within the party is behind unapologetic progressive policy.
If Trump's incessant lying, growing underemployment, human rights abuses, racist and sexist statements, and tax cuts for the rich followed by cuts to entitlements isn't enough for someone to leave Trump. A moderate Dem isn't going to be the thing to convert them. |
I don’t think either side is going to succeed appealing across most of the aisle, but I do think (because I consider myself and many of the folks I hang out with in it) that there is a significant contingent of people right there in the middle that in the simplest of terms, just want a candidate that promotes responsible capitalism without needlessly castigating the wealthy (because we do need them too) and in particular, and perhaps most importantly, stays far away from the identity politics stuff. |
When one’s politics involve targeting women, minorities, the LGBTQ community, immigrants, and other religious beliefs, one certainly would like to see a lack of identity politics. I mean, the mob would feel like they could work together with society if there was less law enforcement politics.
And what I meant a few pages back is illustrated in this post. You’re not a moderate and wouldn’t vote Democratic to save your life unless they adopted mainstream right wing positions (meaning they’d have to become defacto republicans), yet you persist in pretending to be a moderate while you prosecute a defense of the hard right by disingenuous means. Just own who you are.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Last edited by Omar Little on Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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Fwiw, SS is not broke. It is just measured in terms of revenue vs payouts and will soon reach a point where those no longer balance. While this is important, it is more than a little disingenuous when the government as a whole is running at huge deficits. And has been for most people’s entire lifetime.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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Bet a lot of you knew this was coming since the conversation turned to SS. Good read.
Did George W. Bush 'borrow' from Social Security to fund the war in Iraq and tax cuts?
LINK
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | Whenever conservatives pretend they might vote for someone running against Trump if the Dems were just more moderate. I think of people like realking.
Appealing across the aisle is a fools errand. Turning out our base should be the goal. See 2018.
If some Dem Presidential candidates truly believe in more moderate policy, they should stay faithful to their convictions. But after seeing the midterms, it's obvious. The energy within the party is behind unapologetic progressive policy.
If Trump's incessant lying, growing underemployment, human rights abuses, racist and sexist statements, and tax cuts for the rich followed by cuts to entitlements isn't enough for someone to leave Trump. A moderate Dem isn't going to be the thing to convert them. |
I don’t think either side is going to succeed appealing across most of the aisle, but I do think (because I consider myself and many of the folks I hang out with in it) that there is a significant contingent of people right there in the middle that in the simplest of terms, just want a candidate that promotes responsible capitalism without needlessly castigating the wealthy (because we do need them too) and in particular, and perhaps most importantly, stays far away from the identity politics stuff. |
When one’s politics involve targeting women, minorities, the LGBTQ community, immigrants, and other religious beliefs, one certainly would like to see a lack of identity politics. I mean, the mob would feel like they could work together with society if there was less law enforcement politics. |
All of that stuff, of course, in total agreement with you. Not a fan of any of it, either way.
But that stuff also includes going after Beto for being ... white. Or going after Catholics as if they can’t separate personal beliefs from policy any differently than a Muslim can or a Jew. We used to be the party that was above that, not the party of (bleep) for tat. We used to be the party that pushed back against the Republicans in the name of free speech, now it’s the other away around. What the (bleep) happened?
It’s just frustrating. Like, having been a lifelong democrat and I am basically in favor of pretty much all the same things as the new democrat but just not to THAT degree. And that, basically puts me on the right, effectively.
(Thanks for explaining SS. I honestly didnt know until earlier today I wasn’t paying into my future benefits like I do with say a 401K). |
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VicXLakers
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: |
The rich ones do. But I don’t think the MAGA hatters do, if that’s who you mean by the average trump voter. |
Are you joking? Every trump voter supports welfare for the wealthy,tax cuts for corporations and deregulation of pollution standards by their vote...
They cannot deny that  |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Donald . . .
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| VicXLakers wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: |
The rich ones do. But I don’t think the MAGA hatters do, if that’s who you mean by the average trump voter. |
Are you joking? Every trump voter supports welfare for the wealthy,tax cuts for corporations and deregulation of pollution standards by their vote...
They cannot deny that |
Just my opinion, but I don’t think the MAGA hatters care about any of that so long as they feel they are benefitting more at the same time.
Maybe I’m stereotyping, but its hard for me to imagine a MAGA hatter worrying about pollution, at least, to a sufficient degree to prioritize over their own expected financial well being. If that makes any sense. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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MAGA voters have shown a willingness to sacrifice their own well being if it screws over minorities or Libs.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | MAGA voters have shown a willingness to sacrifice their own well being if it screws over minorities or Libs. |
And even the well being of their own children.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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VicXLakers
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | VicXLakers wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: |
The rich ones do. But I don’t think the MAGA hatters do, if that’s who you mean by the average trump voter. |
Are you joking? Every trump voter supports welfare for the wealthy,tax cuts for corporations and deregulation of pollution standards by their vote...
They cannot deny that |
Just my opinion, but I don’t think the MAGA hatters care about any of that so long as they feel they are benefitting more at the same time.
Maybe I’m stereotyping, but its hard for me to imagine a MAGA hatter worrying about pollution, at least, to a sufficient degree to prioritize over their own expected financial well being. If that makes any sense. |
STOP... a vote for trump is a vote for all he does and all he stands for. period |
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VicXLakers
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | Fwiw, SS is not broke. It is just measured in terms of revenue vs payouts and will soon reach a point where those no longer balance. While this is important, it is more than a little disingenuous when the government as a whole is running at huge deficits. And has been for most people’s entire lifetime. |
some cannot or don't want to grasp that if you have unlimited money for programs that are not self funded by running deficits then it is disingenuous that there is no money for a program that would be at least partially/mostly self funded |
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realking24
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | realking24 wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | realking24 wrote: | | Huey Lewis & The News wrote: | | realking24 wrote: | | Wow what an Echo chamber! |
Look here pops, you marked yourself with almost every bottom-drawer parrot line there ever was. Anti-vax, echo chamber, fake news. lol echo chamber or not, not even the hardest wingnut conservative facebook group would send you out as representative of their best of breed. Stop now. Don't waste anyone's time with this bull (bleep). |
What??? To think for yourself your scolded here lol. That’s what you do is to talk (bleep) and bully people if they don’t fall in line! You call names and give people labels while complaining that we shouldn’t have labels. I am not a conservative, I’m not anti vax, but I will sure question and not believe everything thing I here from networks paid for by lobbyists that have an agenda. I have no problem if anyone votes for anybody or anything as long as I have a right to do what I want. Your little bully tactics made me a Trump voter!!! |
You start off by criticizing that he scolded you for thinking like yourself, and then you conclude by saying, that his tactics made you a Trump voter, which tells me me you are only reactionary and have a problem thinking for yourself. |
Not that simple. Doing research and finding out how corrupt the media, FBI, and our politicians are and trying convince us other wise is nonsense. Being Bullied by the media, Facebook,Twitter, internet warriors and other big plat forms by changing their codes to favor Democrats and feeding us Fake News Fox isn’t exempt Made me question everything. I like a lot of what you guys say on Lakersground but differ on politics but I’m ok with it are you?
Do I think we should inject the amount of chemicals in brand new babies and not question the consequences? In America we have a massive amount of bebies dying as a newborn and we have state-of-the-art medicine. I did throw a lot of (bleep) out there but I thought most would agree for peoples choice, and limiting Lobbyists |
OK. So, since you stated you have done your research, I'll ask a second time: Give me some examples, with evidence substantiating, of how the media is corrupt. |
Хорошо, все мое дерьмо бот сделано, и я готов вас всех в школу.
You want evidence of media corruption. Here is just a few examples of when the news sold us the wrong angle to a story. They change the narrative and tell half stories to divide people and create viewers.
First story, MAGA IS BAD
https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2019/01/19/maga-video-teens-native-american-unfiltered-vpx.cnn
Real story, teens were actually the ones being bullied.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/19/us/teens-mock-native-elder-trnd/index.html
Another example, on every station they are screaming for gun control and praising New Zealand for their quick actions.
Meanwhile the midwest is under water, hundreds are stranded, people are dying TODAY and no one has said a word.
Don't get me started on all the pictures shared of "kids at the wall" "kids separated from families" and then it turns out most those pictures were either during Obama or during protests.
Those are just a few of the stories I can think of off the top of my head. Do you need more? |
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VicXLakers
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| realking24 wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | realking24 wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | realking24 wrote: | | Huey Lewis & The News wrote: | | realking24 wrote: | | Wow what an Echo chamber! |
Look here pops, you marked yourself with almost every bottom-drawer parrot line there ever was. Anti-vax, echo chamber, fake news. lol echo chamber or not, not even the hardest wingnut conservative facebook group would send you out as representative of their best of breed. Stop now. Don't waste anyone's time with this bull (bleep). |
What??? To think for yourself your scolded here lol. That’s what you do is to talk (bleep) and bully people if they don’t fall in line! You call names and give people labels while complaining that we shouldn’t have labels. I am not a conservative, I’m not anti vax, but I will sure question and not believe everything thing I here from networks paid for by lobbyists that have an agenda. I have no problem if anyone votes for anybody or anything as long as I have a right to do what I want. Your little bully tactics made me a Trump voter!!! |
You start off by criticizing that he scolded you for thinking like yourself, and then you conclude by saying, that his tactics made you a Trump voter, which tells me me you are only reactionary and have a problem thinking for yourself. |
Not that simple. Doing research and finding out how corrupt the media, FBI, and our politicians are and trying convince us other wise is nonsense. Being Bullied by the media, Facebook,Twitter, internet warriors and other big plat forms by changing their codes to favor Democrats and feeding us Fake News Fox isn’t exempt Made me question everything. I like a lot of what you guys say on Lakersground but differ on politics but I’m ok with it are you?
Do I think we should inject the amount of chemicals in brand new babies and not question the consequences? In America we have a massive amount of bebies dying as a newborn and we have state-of-the-art medicine. I did throw a lot of (bleep) out there but I thought most would agree for peoples choice, and limiting Lobbyists |
OK. So, since you stated you have done your research, I'll ask a second time: Give me some examples, with evidence substantiating, of how the media is corrupt. |
Хорошо, все мое дерьмо бот сделано, и я готов вас всех в школу.
You want evidence of media corruption. Here is just a few examples of when the news sold us the wrong angle to a story. They change the narrative and tell half stories to divide people and create viewers.
First story, MAGA IS BAD
https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2019/01/19/maga-video-teens-native-american-unfiltered-vpx.cnn
Real story, teens were actually the ones being bullied.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/19/us/teens-mock-native-elder-trnd/index.html
Another example, on every station they are screaming for gun control and praising New Zealand for their quick actions.
Meanwhile the midwest is under water, hundreds are stranded, people are dying TODAY and no one has said a word.
Don't get me started on all the pictures shared of "kids at the wall" "kids separated from families" and then it turns out most those pictures were either during Obama or during protests.
Those are just a few of the stories I can think of off the top of my head. Do you need more? |
seriously...this a joke that is just not funny in this day and age...that is your supposed reason for voting for trump?  |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | MAGA voters have shown a willingness to sacrifice their own well being if it screws over minorities or Libs. |
I’m sure there are some that feel that way, but I don’t think the average voter really cares for anything other than what is in their best interests. |
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DaMuleRules
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Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| realking24 wrote: | | Here is just a few examples of when the news sold us the wrong angle to a story |
You need to do some homework on your Russian to English translation skills.
It's "here are just a few examples . . ."
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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tox
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Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17876
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | Whenever conservatives pretend they might vote for someone running against Trump if the Dems were just more moderate. I think of people like realking.
Appealing across the aisle is a fools errand. Turning out our base should be the goal. See 2018.
If some Dem Presidential candidates truly believe in more moderate policy, they should stay faithful to their convictions. But after seeing the midterms, it's obvious. The energy within the party is behind unapologetic progressive policy.
If Trump's incessant lying, growing underemployment, human rights abuses, racist and sexist statements, and tax cuts for the rich followed by cuts to entitlements isn't enough for someone to leave Trump. A moderate Dem isn't going to be the thing to convert them. |
I don’t think either side is going to succeed appealing across most of the aisle, but I do think (because I consider myself and many of the folks I hang out with in it) that there is a significant contingent of people right there in the middle that in the simplest of terms, just want a candidate that promotes responsible capitalism without needlessly castigating the wealthy (because we do need them too) and in particular, and perhaps most importantly, stays far away from the identity politics stuff. |
To you and your friends it may just be "identity politics stuff". But to a major part of the blue wave (that whooped the GOP's ass in 2018) it's their lives. They don't have the luxury to be on the outside looking in. And when AOC says stuff like "Student loans mean my "entire generation...is delaying or forgoing purchasing houses" or Lawmakers Should Lose Their Salaries Too When They Shut Down the Government or Why are billionaires who want to run for president never told to ‘work their way up’? it resonates on a personal sometimes life-defining level. Convincing fake moderates is a fools errand. Lets just do what we did in 2018 and drag conservatives and fake moderates into the future.
If someone doesn't have the integrity to leave a party that courts racists, sexists, bigots, etc. That person's vote isn't worth pursuing. And I'm not talking about what Republicans say. I'm talking about the policy they push. Going back to Goldwater. |
Not to mention Trump won in 2016 on white identity politics. Identity politics basically drives a ton of voting patterns.
Actually the country is far more liberal on economic policy than it is on social matters -- Warren's wealth tax polled at something like 60-20, including 50-30 for Republicans (according to Vox) . Obviously that will polarize, but I think the point remains. I don't think being a self-proclaimed socialist would hurt Bernie all that much. I think social issues are much more divided especially after adjusting for the electoral college bias.
Problem for a Democrat is that it's hard to not address social issues/ "identity politics" when that's really important to your base. Not to mention Trump is good at inciting tensions on these issues.
Last edited by tox on Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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VicXLakers
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| realking24 wrote: |
Хорошо, все мое дерьмо бот сделано, и я готов вас всех в школу.
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Russian translation...
All right, all my (bleep) bot done, and I'm ready to take you all to school.
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