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ribeye
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:56 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Special counsel and DOJ deliberated seeking subpoena for Trump


. . . and DOJ . . . (and Sessions, and/or Rosenstein, and/or Whitaker, and/or Barr)

Just how much influence did DOJ have? I'm guessin' a lot.

Maybe Joy was on to something
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:58 pm    Post subject:

VicXLakers wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
VicXLakers wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
VicXLakers wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
VicXLakers wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
There is an unmistakable tone that is coming through in many of these posts blaming Democrats for not doing something perfectly. Whether it's intended or not, several people are picking up on it. I'm not going to keep playing word games. Enjoy the rest of the weekend.


I get this all day on MSNBC with all their never trump republicans ...it gets old


Yeah, but no one [i]here did that[/i]. Critiquing something is not in anyway demonstrative of a expectation of perfection.


that's your opinion ....discuss it with yourself


It's not opinion. No one expressed any desire or need for perfection. That's a fact. So I can see why you would need to make the accusation and run.


still here just not going to do a circle jerk argument about it...


I'm not interested in a circle jerk either. So since we are in agreement there, and you are "still here", I'm going to assume you are interested in a discussion of substance. If that's the case, please explain where I or anyone else expressed an expectation of perfection.

That's an honest and fair question. Nothing circle jerk about it. So do you have an honest and fair response?

If not, that's fine. But please save the self righteous and hypocritical BS about honest engagement.


I'm sure as hell not going back thru this thread but it was something about the dems making Benghazi mistakes and all journalists getting painted with the same brush because one throws out some ct which is the norm for right wing journalism

Like Cl said it is a tone ...I don't blame her for not wanting to be bothered

...on a side note after 7 years the keyboard is going on my MacBook Air so if there's a w or two (no number 2 either)missing please understand...a real *itch having to use the keyboard viewer to fill in the blanks


I'll take having a "tone" over misrepresenting people's comments and then running off when called on it while pretending the other person is the one who is being unreasonable.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:07 pm    Post subject:

VicXLakers wrote:
Nadler says he will call on Barr to testify over DOJ handling of Mueller report


Quote:
House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.) said Sunday that his committee will call Attorney General William Barr to testify over “very concerning discrepancies and final decision making” at the Justice Department over special counsel Robert Mueller’s report.


I wish him luck with that . . .
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:11 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Kyle Griffin Verified account @kylegriffin1

Schumer and Pelosi: "Given Mr. Barr’s public record of bias against the Special Counsel's inquiry, he is not a neutral observer and is not in a position to make objective determinations about the report."
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:14 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
VicXLakers wrote:
Nadler says he will call on Barr to testify over DOJ handling of Mueller report


Quote:
House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.) said Sunday that his committee will call Attorney General William Barr to testify over “very concerning discrepancies and final decision making” at the Justice Department over special counsel Robert Mueller’s report.


I wish him luck with that . . .


Can you clarify what you mean by this?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:16 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
No matter what the report says, I saw Trump collude and obstruct with my own eyes and ears. That it didn't rise to a level of criminality that could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in court isn't relevant to my belief. I will not be gaslighted by privileged white men protecting other privileged white men in a system built to protect privileged white men.

And now that most of my faith in our Democratic systems has been shredded, I won't be expecting Congress to do anything consequential enough to fix this mess we call American Democracy in the short term. Let them hold hearings, I support that. But I think as citizens we have to focus on what we can do and that boils down to what we did at the mid-terms. Vote, volunteer, encourage other people to volunteer, and support candidates who will help fix the system.

I now apologize to all the other cynics in this thread who came to this conclusion 2 years ago. You were right. You know who you are.


I don't believe any of those cynics are happy about that. I would also think that they don't feel any apologies are necessary.

Just my non-cynical take.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:18 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
VicXLakers wrote:
Nadler says he will call on Barr to testify over DOJ handling of Mueller report


Quote:
House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.) said Sunday that his committee will call Attorney General William Barr to testify over “very concerning discrepancies and final decision making” at the Justice Department over special counsel Robert Mueller’s report.


I wish him luck with that . . .


Can you clarify what you mean by this?


I don't think it will yield anything.

Sorry if that makes me a bad democrat with a "tone".
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Last edited by DaMuleRules on Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:22 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
No matter what the report says, I saw Trump collude and obstruct with my own eyes and ears. That it didn't rise to a level of criminality that could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in court isn't relevant to my belief. I will not be gaslighted by privileged white men protecting other privileged white men in a system built to protect privileged white men.

And now that most of my faith in our Democratic systems has been shredded, I won't be expecting Congress to do anything consequential enough to fix this mess we call American Democracy in the short term. Let them hold hearings, I support that. But I think as citizens we have to focus on what we can do and that boils down to what we did at the mid-terms. Vote, volunteer, encourage other people to volunteer, and support candidates who will help fix the system.

I now apologize to all the other cynics in this thread who came to this conclusion 2 years ago. You were right. You know who you are.


I don't believe any of those cynics are happy about that. I would also think that they don't feel any apologies are necessary.

Just my non-cynical take.


Trump is President. We all lose.

I do think a focus on the positives our candidate can bring to the table in 2020 is far more helpful than pushing the Russia narrative. In that way I'm glad it's over. Onward and upward.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:25 pm    Post subject:

Double post
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Last edited by DaMuleRules on Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:28 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
No matter what the report says, I saw Trump collude and obstruct with my own eyes and ears. That it didn't rise to a level of criminality that could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in court isn't relevant to my belief. I will not be gaslighted by privileged white men protecting other privileged white men in a system built to protect privileged white men.

And now that most of my faith in our Democratic systems has been shredded, I won't be expecting Congress to do anything consequential enough to fix this mess we call American Democracy in the short term. Let them hold hearings, I support that. But I think as citizens we have to focus on what we can do and that boils down to what we did at the mid-terms. Vote, volunteer, encourage other people to volunteer, and support candidates who will help fix the system.

I now apologize to all the other cynics in this thread who came to this conclusion 2 years ago. You were right. You know who you are.


I don't believe any of those cynics are happy about that. I would also think that they don't feel any apologies are necessary.

Just my non-cynical take.


Trump is President. We all lose.

I do think a focus on the positives our candidate can bring to the table in 2020 is far more helpful than pushing the Russia narrative. In that way I'm glad it's over. Onward and upward.


Couldn't agree more. There's only one goal now. Victory in 2020. That's only going to come by productively pushing policy, not playing politics.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:30 pm    Post subject:

So here’s a question an attorney friend of mine raised:

Mueller was asked to determine if there was evidence to support prosecuting two crimes, conspiracy and obstruction. According to the rules of prosecution, there are only two answers, yes or no. So if he didn’t feel there was enough evidence for conspiracy, he would decline, and he apparently did. But he said maybe on obstruction? He either felt it made the threshold or it did not.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:32 pm    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
So, can Trump, logically, still call the Muller investigation a witch hunt?


30 plus indictments and a handful of jail sentences . Sorry i mean prison sentences.

If that's a witch hunt then it was one that found some witches.

As for anyone jumping to conclusions based on the summary of a summary. Stop. Mueller isn't a prosecutor. His job and those under him was to dig up facts. Yes there were convictions prosecutions and indictments from his work but they were all violations so blatant that even Michael Cohen could get a trial and conviction.

And let's clear up some vocabulary, which will piss off both sides...

Mueller is special council, not special prosecutor. His job was to find facts regardless of who they helped. That was never a factor. His team was assembled to find facts. Their specialties covered every possible aspect. If you're going to investigate something this big then you want the absolute best.

This is not the Mueller report. He was simply who was put in charge of the investigation. In terms of professenionlism he was the gold standard. Take the words no and comment out of the running and we might have gotten 30 words out of his team over the past 2 years. None of them did this for publicity.

And while there are a crapload of other finer points to make, let's just end this one on the biggie. Collusion.

Trump and his cronies are right. There was none and none was ever suggested by anyone other than the media or his team. There's a very good reason for that. It doesn't exist as he and his team have repeated ad nauseam. Conspiracy, interference and obstruction? That's a whole different story.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:42 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
So here’s a question an attorney friend of mine raised:

Mueller was asked to determine if there was evidence to support prosecuting two crimes, conspiracy and obstruction. According to the rules of prosecution, there are only two answers, yes or no. So if he didn’t feel there was enough evidence for conspiracy, he would decline, and he apparently did. But he said maybe on obstruction? He either felt it made the threshold or it did not.


Prosecutors don't go to trial without a close to 100 percent chance of the ruling going in their favor for two reasons; ego and risk of double jeopardy. They get one bite at the Apple.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:46 pm    Post subject:

Hector the Pup wrote:

And while there are a crapload of other finer points to make, let's just end this one on the biggie. Collusion.

Trump and his cronies are right. There was none and none was ever suggested by anyone other than the media or his team. There's a very good reason for that. It doesn't exist as he and his team have repeated ad nauseam. Conspiracy, interference and obstruction? That's a whole different story.


I think you have that backwards. There was collusion but there was not criminal conspiracy.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:47 pm    Post subject:

Hector the Pup wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
So here’s a question an attorney friend of mine raised:

Mueller was asked to determine if there was evidence to support prosecuting two crimes, conspiracy and obstruction. According to the rules of prosecution, there are only two answers, yes or no. So if he didn’t feel there was enough evidence for conspiracy, he would decline, and he apparently did. But he said maybe on obstruction? He either felt it made the threshold or it did not.


Prosecutors don't go to trial without a close to 100 percent chance of the ruling going in their favor for two reasons; ego and risk of double jeopardy. They get one bite at the Apple.


I get that. I’m just pointing out what seems to be a discrepancy in the Barr summary. He says on the one hand Mueller said the evidence didn’t meet the standard to charge conspiracy, but then he says Mueller said neither it did or it didn’t re obstruction. That doesn’t make sense. If he was unsure, that would have been no. Because it wouldn’t meet the standard to move forward. Like I said, mueller basically didn’t make a call on one and not the other on the evidence.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:51 pm    Post subject:

Also worth noting the phraseology of not enough evidence to establish conspiracy. That’s a long way from it didn’t happen, that there wasn’t a lot of evidence indicating it, or I don’t think they did.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:56 pm    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Conspiracy theory prediction: somewhere down the road, we will learn that Rosenstein was not impartial in this either...


This is getting into a tricky area, and I don't want to embarrass Democrats any further, but Republicans, those with a law background particularly, view the Executive Branch differently than most. They believe in a very strong presidency, the Imperial Presidency, which gives the President more powers than granted by the constitution.

Now if this is one's basis, and I bet most all appointments in the legal arena by Republicans, including the head of the FBI and the Attorney General, conform with this philosophy, as it is clear, does Barr. As such, it stands to reason that Rosenstein would also have such a philosophy, as well as Muller. This does not mean they are prejudiced towards Trump, but that they could be philosophically prejudiced towards the presidency, which really amounts to the same thing in this case.

If I am correct, it would be natural of Rosenstein to agree with a finding that protects the president.


I wonder why his crimes while not President are not indictable while president..
Candidate Trump colluded with Russian Assets to aid and abet them in helping Hillary lose at any costs..

Be it
Hacking The Democratic Competitors computers
Hosting government communications on WikiLeaks *with Russian assistance
Trump asking WikiLeaks for the emails to be dropped right before it happened
His son communicating with wikileaks and stone to produce
stolen electronic communications with the intent to smear the other candidate with RUSSIA'S HELP?? Hello

I can see Oligarchs doing this
right now.. might want to check USGS for small earthquakes in russia from so much GUFFAWING
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:58 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Also worth noting the phraseology of not enough evidence to establish conspiracy. That’s a long way from it didn’t happen, that there wasn’t a lot of evidence indicating it, or I don’t think they did.


Politicians Lives Matter!

This is like how there is never enough evidence to charge and convict police officers?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:01 pm    Post subject:

Hector the Pup wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
So here’s a question an attorney friend of mine raised:

Mueller was asked to determine if there was evidence to support prosecuting two crimes, conspiracy and obstruction. According to the rules of prosecution, there are only two answers, yes or no. So if he didn’t feel there was enough evidence for conspiracy, he would decline, and he apparently did. But he said maybe on obstruction? He either felt it made the threshold or it did not.


Prosecutors don't go to trial without a close to 100 percent chance of the ruling going in their favor for two reasons; ego and risk of double jeopardy. They get one bite at the Apple.


How about Personal Integrity
who is it I am trying to remember
to kill a mockingbird
finch

Atticus Finch

Robert Mueller is no Atticus Finch

I sincerely wonder if Mueller knowing Republicans would not follow any indictment led him not to push it?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:05 pm    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
ribeye wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Conspiracy theory prediction: somewhere down the road, we will learn that Rosenstein was not impartial in this either...


This is getting into a tricky area, and I don't want to embarrass Democrats any further, but Republicans, those with a law background particularly, view the Executive Branch differently than most. They believe in a very strong presidency, the Imperial Presidency, which gives the President more powers than granted by the constitution.

Now if this is one's basis, and I bet most all appointments in the legal arena by Republicans, including the head of the FBI and the Attorney General, conform with this philosophy, as it is clear, does Barr. As such, it stands to reason that Rosenstein would also have such a philosophy, as well as Muller. This does not mean they are prejudiced towards Trump, but that they could be philosophically prejudiced towards the presidency, which really amounts to the same thing in this case.

If I am correct, it would be natural of Rosenstein to agree with a finding that protects the president.


I wonder why his crimes while not President are not indictable while president..
Candidate Trump colluded with Russian Assets to aid and abet them in helping Hillary lose at any costs..

Be it
Hacking The Democratic Competitors computers
Hosting government communications on WikiLeaks *with Russian assistance
Trump asking WikiLeaks for the emails to be dropped right before it happened
His son communicating with wikileaks and stone to produce
stolen electronic communications with the intent to smear the other candidate with RUSSIA'S HELP?? Hello

I can see Oligarchs doing this
right now.. might want to check USGS for small earthquakes in russia from so much GUFFAWING


There was this article, related to this concept, in Kos today:

What the GOP learned when the wealthy tried to overthrow FDR and install a fascist dictator

Quote:
The bankers plotted a coup against FDR, which would later be called the Wall Street Putsch.


Quote:
Unfortunately for the conspirators, the general didn’t bite. In fact, he exposed them at a Congressional hearing as traitors. Initially, Congress and the press treated this whole thing as a joke. However, with Butler’s testimony, along with a reporter who was at one of the meetings, Congress opened an investigation. They found out it was indeed true, but decided not to do anything about it because the plot seemed so far-fetched. No one was prosecuted.

Sadly, this wouldn’t be the last time a wealthy person got away with treason
.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/3/23/1844493/-What-the-GOP-learned-when-the-wealthy-tried-to-overthrow-FDR-and-install-a-fascist-dictator
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:08 pm    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
So, can Trump, logically, still call the Muller investigation a witch hunt?


"can Trump" and "logically", that's a good one.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:15 pm    Post subject:

[quote="ribeye"][quote="ContagiousInspiration"]
ribeye wrote:


There was this article, related to this concept, in Kos today:

What the GOP learned when the wealthy tried to overthrow FDR and install a fascist dictator

Quote:
The bankers plotted a coup against FDR, which would later be called the Wall Street Putsch.


Quote:
Unfortunately for the conspirators, the general didn’t bite. In fact, he exposed them at a Congressional hearing as traitors. Initially, Congress and the press treated this whole thing as a joke. However, with Butler’s testimony, along with a reporter who was at one of the meetings, Congress opened an investigation. They found out it was indeed true, but decided not to do anything about it because the plot seemed so far-fetched. No one was prosecuted.

Sadly, this wouldn’t be the last time a wealthy person got away with treason
.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/3/23/1844493/-What-the-GOP-learned-when-the-wealthy-tried-to-overthrow-FDR-and-install-a-fascist-dictator


Quote:
It has taken a while, but now a large segment of our population has been utterly convinced that they need to align their beliefs with whatever benefits those at the top.


Very interesting article and fuel for new conspiracies .. not to promote them but something really isn't lining up

Don Jr... how much evidence is needed?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:28 pm    Post subject:

BREAKING NEWS from 8ballch...

Rudy is celebrating tonight by eating two babies and a French Teacup Poodle for desert

* babies can be subbed for flippers

Quote:
Oogruk Flippers -

Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method
-------- ------------ --------------------------------
1 small oogruk
fresh blubber

Cut the flippers off from the oogruk. Put the flippers in fresh blubber. Let
them stay there for
about two weeks. Take the loose fur off the flipper.

Cut flipper into small pieces and eat the meat.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:35 pm    Post subject:

All this and nothing about Don Jr or Kushner? I can't imagine that the report failed to mention them. I guess we'll have to wait until, likely, (hopefully?) the courts force Trump and Barr to turn the report over to congress and the people.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:50 pm    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
All this and nothing about Don Jr or Kushner? I can't imagine that the report failed to mention them. I guess we'll have to wait until, likely, (hopefully?) the courts force Trump and Barr to turn the report over to congress and the people.

If they don't turn them over they can be subpoenaed.
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