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tox
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 11:56 am    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
tox wrote:
ribeye wrote:
Surfitall wrote:


It’s not about scaring away middle America, it’s about inspiring middle America to vote for you.


It's about both. The Dems don't have to go far left to inspire middle America, but they could very easily, with that right wing propaganda machine working overtime, scare them away. Look at AOC's favorability ratings as a result.

Look at Bernie's favorability ratings, even now that they've dropped down to normal, he's still at +1. AOC's favorability ratings are bad because Fox news means more Republicans have heard of AOC than Democrats. Naturally they'll be tilted. In a national campaign this isn't true, so I think that's a misleading argument.

You reinforced my point that when the right wing propaganda machine -- that certainly means Fox, Fox Business, OAN, and just about all of AM talk radio -- wants to tarnish someone, it is nonstop and effective. And you acknowledge that is why AOC has such a negative favorability rating of -13 points. Sure, if she were better known by Democrats, that would lessen, but by 13 points? Worth such a gamble?

Also, let's not forget what happened to Hillary, who was and is certainly well known on the national stage. And let's not pretend it will not happen with whoever gets the Democratic nod. This is why the vulnerabilities of such a potential candidate can't be the kind that scare off the moderate thinking voters.

I just happen to believe that the bulk of these citizens are not ready to pay for free medical, free education, free daycare, free preschool, a living wage for all, infrastructure upgrades, and a green new deal. Often they like the sounds of these individually, but when they see the costs, especially the collective costs, they do not. Since, the Dems don't have 218, 60, and 1, it is extremely unlikely that any of these will pass.

Why promise what can't be delivered and at the same time could likely drive supporters away?

No I didn't make your point, if you took most Democrats' Fox News number after months of smearing (i.e. general election) and then weighted it so that Republicans roughly double Democrats in opinions (due to increased familiarity) almost every candidate would look the same. It has nothing to do with their politics, which is my point.

I don't disagree with your point about policies and I think that's a bigger risk -- getting a president who campaigns on a lot and manages to get nothing done due to political realities. But what I'm saying is your example of AOC does not provide evidence for the specific claim you're making about far left politics.

And your example of HRC makes my point. She was not a leftie and she still got destroyed by the Fox News propaganda machine. That's going to happen regardless.

(BTW I will support lefties like Warren partly because it means that someone like Biden will at least push for public option, which I also support.)
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ribeye
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 12:10 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
ribeye wrote:

I just happen to believe that the bulk of these citizens are not ready to pay for free medical, free education, free daycare, free preschool, a living wage for all, infrastructure upgrades, and a green new deal. Often they like the sounds of these individually, but when they see the costs, especially the collective costs, they do not. Since, the Dems don't have 218, 60 , and 1, it is extremely unlikely for any of these will pass.


Progressive policy will never pass in the US unless the filibuster is removed from the Senate. If the Dems ever take back both Houses and the Presidency. That has to be their move.


This is true. I have mixed feelings myself. The 60 vote threshold was necessary for passing the ACA, which the Democrats could muster, but was also necessary for its repeal, which the Republicans could not.
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 1:04 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:

Well we disagree there. If Trump is not convicted, then what you call a failed impeachment, I call a constitutional process that unfortunately ended without a conviction because Senate Republicans put party ahead of country despite the overwhelming evidence of Trump's guilt. Because at that point, Trump's overwhelming guilt will have been proven to the majority of Americans watching, despite the verdict.

And then you let the voters correct the GOP-dominated Senate's mistake at the ballot box.


Unfortunately, that's not how it will play. It will play as that constitutional process "proving" Trump wasn't guilty of any wrong doing, which will increase his chances in 2020.

If I thought there was even a slight chance that anything productive would arise from engaging an impeachment process, I'd back it 100%. But other than making some of us on the Left feel like we have done our "duty", there's no good to come of it.
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 1:09 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
History will not be kind to Trump and this iteration of the Republican party. The lies, the corruption, the election interference by Russia, the collusion, the obstruction, the sycophancy of the entire Republican party. That will be the lesson from this era in history, not the impeachment itself in isolation from the facts.


The future won't be kind to any of us if Trump isn't voted out of office. That needs to be goal #1. What history will think in later generations isn't really something we have the luxury of considering.
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 1:39 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
History will not be kind to Trump and this iteration of the Republican party. The lies, the corruption, the election interference by Russia, the collusion, the obstruction, the sycophancy of the entire Republican party. That will be the lesson from this era in history, not the impeachment itself in isolation from the facts.


The future won't be kind to any of us if Trump isn't voted out of office. That needs to be goal #1. What history will think in later generations isn't really something we have the luxury of considering.


The future is not my first worry, it's now. Trump's destroying what the country was built on and Congress is doing nothing to stop him.
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 1:41 pm    Post subject:

Weds, Jan 21st 2021

Judgement Day. There's a time and place for everything. Let Attorney General Kamala Harris do her job. And let Secretary of State Samantha Power handle all the extradition rigmarole...
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 1:45 pm    Post subject:

Aussiesuede wrote:
Weds, Jan 21st 2021

Judgement Day. There's a time and place for everything. Let Attorney General Kamala Harris do her job. And let Secretary of State Samantha Power handle all the extradition rigmarole...


I like your cabinet, or the two you appointed anyway.
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 1:58 pm    Post subject:

Hitler grew strong while good Germans stood still

*Get someone to start talking to the public in hearings

Flynn
Mueller
Rosenstein
Start criminal proceedings against his children for lying
For FAILED SECURITY CLEARANCES
Lockup Kushner for Kashoggi

Start long ago making the "librul" media
Inform ALL OF US that Trump has over $$800,000,000,000 DEFICIT
^^Criminal Theft? Or Criminally Stupidity

Something Obama didn't have
Democrats don't do that
Theft is a Republican value

All the money he stole will hurt someone badly bigly badly

He causes such a (bleep) you can't keep up

Fwiw
Angela Merkel just asked the EU to consider the US as near enemy
Level status and that they need to defend themselves from the US etc

Quote:


"There is no doubt that Europe needs to reposition itself in a changed world," Merkel said. "The old certainties of the postwar order no longer apply."

According to The Guardian, she added that the US, Russia, and China "are forcing us, time and again, to find common positions."
https://www.businessinsider.com/angela-merkel-europe-should-unite-against-china-russia-and-the-us-2019-5
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Aussiesuede
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 2:10 pm    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
Aussiesuede wrote:
Weds, Jan 21st 2021

Judgement Day. There's a time and place for everything. Let Attorney General Kamala Harris do her job. And let Secretary of State Samantha Power handle all the extradition rigmarole...


I like your cabinet, or the two you appointed anyway.


Full Cabinet:

President of the Senate ; Elizabeth Warren
Secretary of State : Samantha Power
Secretary of Treasury : Jack Markell
Secretary of Defense : Michele Flournoy
Attorney General : Kamala Harris
Secretary of Interior : Sally Jewel
Secretary of Agriculture : Blanche Lincoln
Secretary of Labor : Jennifer Granholm (Go Vancouver!)
Secretary of HUD : Christine Quinn
Secretary of Health & Human Services : Vivek Murthy
Secretary of Commerce : Andrew Yang
Secretary of Transportation : Michael Nutter
Secretary of Education - Angela Merkel (Gotta Get Serious and Go Get the Best)
Secretary of Energy : Carol Browner
Secretary of Veteran Affairs : Joe Sestak
Secretary of Homeland Security : Martin O'Malley (Good Mornin Vietnam!)
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 2:12 pm    Post subject:

The first republican to break ranks....

Justin Amash

Justin A. Amash is an American attorney and Republican member of Congress. In January 2011 he began serving as the U.S. Representative for Michigan's 3rd congressional district. The district is based in Grand Rapids. Amash was first elected to the House in the 2010 Congressional election

‏https://twitter.com/justinamash/status/1129831629910872064

Here are my principal conclusions:
1. Attorney General Barr has deliberately misrepresented Mueller’s report.
2. President Trump has engaged in impeachable conduct.
3. Partisanship has eroded our system of checks and balances.
4. Few members of Congress have read the report.


I offer these conclusions only after having read Mueller’s redacted report carefully and completely, having read or watched pertinent statements and testimony, and having discussed this matter with my staff, who thoroughly reviewed materials and provided me with further analysis.

In comparing Barr’s principal conclusions, congressional testimony, and other statements to Mueller’s report, it is clear that Barr intended to mislead the public about Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s analysis and findings.


Barr’s misrepresentations are significant but often subtle, frequently taking the form of sleight-of-hand qualifications or logical fallacies, which he hopes people will not notice.



Under our Constitution, the president “shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.” While “high Crimes and Misdemeanors” is not defined, the context implies conduct that violates the public trust.


Contrary to Barr’s portrayal, Mueller’s report reveals that President Trump engaged in specific actions and a pattern of behavior that meet the threshold for impeachment.


In fact, Mueller’s report identifies multiple examples of conduct satisfying all the elements of obstruction of justice, and undoubtedly any person who is not the president of the United States would be indicted based on such evidence.


Impeachment, which is a special form of indictment, does not even require probable cause that a crime (e.g., obstruction of justice) has been committed; it simply requires a finding that an official has engaged in careless, abusive, corrupt, or otherwise dishonorable conduct.


While impeachment should be undertaken only in extraordinary circumstances, the risk we face in an environment of extreme partisanship is not that Congress will employ it as a remedy too often but rather that Congress will employ it so rarely that it cannot deter misconduct.


Our system of checks and balances relies on each branch’s jealously guarding its powers and upholding its duties under our Constitution. When loyalty to a political party or to an individual trumps loyalty to the Constitution, the Rule of Law—the foundation of liberty—crumbles.


We’ve witnessed members of Congress from both parties shift their views 180 degrees—on the importance of character, on the principles of obstruction of justice—depending on whether they’re discussing Bill Clinton or Donald Trump.


Few members of Congress even read Mueller’s report; their minds were made up based on partisan affiliation—and it showed, with representatives and senators from both parties issuing definitive statements on the 448-page report’s conclusions within just hours of its release.


America’s institutions depend on officials to uphold both the rules and spirit of our constitutional system even when to do so is personally inconvenient or yields a politically unfavorable outcome. Our Constitution is brilliant and awesome; it deserves a government to match it.

12:30 PM - 18 May 2019
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Aussiesuede
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 2:21 pm    Post subject:

VicXLakers wrote:
The first republican to break ranks....

Justin Amash



Here are my principal conclusions:
1. Attorney General Barr has deliberately misrepresented Mueller’s report.
2. President Trump has engaged in impeachable conduct.
3. Partisanship has eroded our system of checks and balances.
4. Few members of Congress have read the report.




He's been making noise about running against Trump. Perhaps this is his opening Salvo in hopes of getting others to join him and start lining up a Republican field of candidates. Could make things interesting, if for nothing else, just to see how outlandish the Trump lie machine can be pushed.
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tox
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 2:54 pm    Post subject:

The House should open impeachment proceedings on Barr (unless there is private pressure from Republicans to make Barr resign and it's just a matter of time before he's pushed out). Anyone disagree with that take?
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 2:58 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:

Well we disagree there. If Trump is not convicted, then what you call a failed impeachment, I call a constitutional process that unfortunately ended without a conviction because Senate Republicans put party ahead of country despite the overwhelming evidence of Trump's guilt. Because at that point, Trump's overwhelming guilt will have been proven to the majority of Americans watching, despite the verdict.

And then you let the voters correct the GOP-dominated Senate's mistake at the ballot box.


Unfortunately, that's not how it will play. It will play as that constitutional process "proving" Trump wasn't guilty of any wrong doing, which will increase his chances in 2020.

If I thought there was even a slight chance that anything productive would arise from engaging an impeachment process, I'd back it 100%. But other than making some of us on the Left feel like we have done our "duty", there's no good to come of it.


OJ was a famous celebrity whom a jury judged as "not guilty" because they weren't convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. Most Americans who watched the trial for themselves didn't conclude that OJ was innocent. They concluded that for a variety of reasons (inept prosecution, racism, red herrings, jury nullification, etc) he got away with murder even though he was guilty. And his celebrity and wealth afforded him high-powered attorneys to exploit the system.

I'm sure Trump will try to spin the "not guilty" thing, just like he's tried to spin the "no collusion" thing. But the public doesn't believe him. Only the 38% believe him. Most people who would watch a trial based on the evidence in the Mueller report will not conclude that Trump is "not guilty" even if the Senate doesn't convict him; nor will Trump typing "not guilty" on Twitter ten-thousand times convince anyone except the cult who already don't care if he's guilty or not.

I honestly don't see how MORE people watching evidence of his criminal wrongdoing HELPS HIM. He has not added one voter to his pile since he has been in office. He has his base and that's it. There are a few on the edges that sometimes support him, then don't for a while, then they jump back on.

Just who are these voters that have previously not supported Trump, but after watching an Impeachment Hearing with tons of damning evidence are going to decide, yep poor Trump, I think I'll vote for him next time because those Democrats (who want me to have health care) were mean to him.

Really?
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 3:08 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
The House should open impeachment proceedings on Barr (unless there is private pressure from Republicans to make Barr resign and it's just a matter of time before he's pushed out). Anyone disagree with that take?

Seconded.
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 3:10 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
The House should open impeachment proceedings on Barr (unless there is private pressure from Republicans to make Barr resign and it's just a matter of time before he's pushed out). Anyone disagree with that take?

Impeaching Trump is unpopular. So people assume impeaching Barr would be to.
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 3:13 pm    Post subject:

And now for a little comic relief via twitter:

Quote:
The only person Trump ever hired who was actually qualified to do their job was Stormy Daniels.


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tox
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 3:20 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
tox wrote:
The House should open impeachment proceedings on Barr (unless there is private pressure from Republicans to make Barr resign and it's just a matter of time before he's pushed out). Anyone disagree with that take?

Impeaching Trump is unpopular. So people assume impeaching Barr would be to.

Well impeaching Trump polled at +3 in the latest Reuters polls (45 support, 42 oppose). It's just one poll and the weight of previous polling makes me agree impeaching Trump is still an overall unpopular proposition, but I'm not sure that's a no brainer claim.

Furthermore, Barr doesn't have that built in tribalistic support, i.e. the partisans will dump Barr if he becomes politically inexpedient to defend. I, for one, think that if Mueller testified during an impeachment proceeding that he felt Barr misrepresented his findings to support Trump (which we know to be the case -- we just need it repeated in a high profile proceeding), then public opinion would turn against Barr enough that he'd resign or that the Senate would confirm to remove him from office.


Last edited by tox on Sat May 18, 2019 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 3:20 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Unfortunately, that's not how it will play. It will play as that constitutional process "proving" Trump wasn't guilty of any wrong doing, which will increase his chances in 2020.

If I thought there was even a slight chance that anything productive would arise from engaging an impeachment process, I'd back it 100%. But other than making some of us on the Left feel like we have done our "duty", there's no good to come of it.


I recently realized something about the precedent argument for impeaching Trump.
It's fighting a war we already lost. The President of the US is above the law. He can commit election crimes and crimes in office, and as long as his party controls 1 chamber of Congress. He's can't be held accountable.

All we can do is vote out Trump in 2020. And try to set up guardrails so another Trump can't ever be elected again. Maybe more states can start making laws about getting on the Presidential ballot. Like NJ did with Trump's taxes.
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Last edited by kikanga on Sat May 18, 2019 3:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 3:20 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
And now for a little comic relief via twitter:

Quote:
The only person Trump ever hired who was actually qualified to do their job was Stormy Daniels.






Comic relief and a healthy dose of truth!
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 3:46 pm    Post subject:

So how long before Trump goes after Justin Amash on Twitter? He was probably out playing golf and just sitting down to his burnt steak and ice cream. Some staffer will tell him, he'll simmer in rage for an hour or so, then sometime tonight Old Faithful will blow it's stack. Maybe take out a blood vessel, or two.
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 4:14 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
So how long before Trump goes after Justin Amash on Twitter? He was probably out playing golf and just sitting down to his burnt steak and ice cream. Some staffer will tell him, he'll simmer in rage for an hour or so, then sometime tonight Old Faithful will blow it's stack. Maybe take out a blood vessel, or two.


Michigan nonetheless, let em see how ugly GOP is
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 4:17 pm    Post subject:

AP: Warren building unlikely connection with black female voters

Quote:
Elizabeth Warren was the last of eight presidential candidates to take the stage at Texas Southern University last month when she was pressed for a solution to black women dying during childbirth at far higher rates than white women.

The Massachusetts senator responded with what has become a campaign catchphrase: “So, I got a plan.” She proposed holding hospitals financially responsible for the disparity, imposing penalties on institutions that don’t act to prevent such deaths.

“Doctors and nurses don’t hear African American women’s medical issues the same way that they hear the same things from white women,” she said. “We’ve got to change that, and we’ve got to do it fast because people’s lives are at stake.”

By the time Warren left the stage at the “She the People” forum, thousands of black women in the audience were on their feet roaring cheers and applauding. The reaction eclipsed the response earlier in the day to Sens. Kamala Harris of California and Cory Booker of New Jersey — the black candidates in the Democratic contest. It reflected the unlikely traction that Warren, a 69-year-old white woman who lives in tony Cambridge, Massachusetts, is gaining with black women who are debating whom to back in a historically diverse primary.

“To have an ally — she’s a woman, but she’s not a black woman — who can speak intelligently and has thought about people who don’t look like you, that resonates,” said Roxy D. Hall Williamson, a 49-year-old who was in the audience. “She stole the show to me.”


Quote:
At this early stage, many black women are undecided about whom they will support. Following Harris’ January campaign launch, there was considerable excitement around her as the sole black woman in the race.

Former Vice President Joe Biden is also winning the attention of some black female voters because of his service to Barack Obama, the nation’s first black president.

In Warren, some black women say they see kinship in a candidate who talks with substance and specificity about problems and solutions.

“We are used to doing our homework and having to show up,” said Heather McGhee, the former president of the progressive think tank Demos. She said several of Warren’s marquee issues — housing, child care and student debt — are ones that disproportionately affect black women.


Quote:
After a rocky start, Warren’s campaign has stabilized in recent weeks, driven by an aggressive policy agenda that sometimes forces her rivals to take stands on such issues as breaking up massive tech firms and impeaching President Donald Trump. But she still lags Biden and Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders in the polls.

But strong connections with black women could help buttress her campaign. Black women are a crucial voting bloc in South Carolina, home to the South’s first primary, and in the contests that will follow in delegate-rich states throughout the South. That’s why Harris, Booker, Biden and Sanders are also feverishly competing for their support.
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 4:37 pm    Post subject:

[quote="VicXLakers"]"The Trump Family Business" Air Tonight At 9Pm ET


Quote:
CNN Special Reports Presents: The Trump Family Business
CNN Anchor Erin Burnett Hosts One-Hour Special

Airs Friday May 17th at 9 PM ET



youtube...

CNN Special Report The Trump Family Business 9PM 5/17/19 |

Quote:
Politics & Government
Published on May 17, 2019
For years, President Trump has bragged about his business prowess. However, he prefers to keep the details of how he makes money secret. Case in point: his current battles to keep his taxes and other financial documents away from scrutiny.
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 4:43 pm    Post subject:

The great Fran Lebowitz:

The Guardian / Fran Lebowitz: 'You do not know anyone as stupid as Donald Trump'

Quote:
Echoing the reported opinion of former US secretary of state Rex Tillerson, Lebowitz thinks the biggest danger of Trump is that he is a moron. “Everyone says he is crazy – which maybe he is – but the scarier thing about him is that he is stupid. You do not know anyone as stupid as Donald Trump. You just don’t.


And this gem really boils it all down:

Quote:
Lebowitz believes naked racism is behind Trump’s election. “He allowed people to express their racism and bigotry in a way that they haven’t been able to in quite a while and they really love him for that. It’s a shocking thing to realise people love their hatred more than they care about their own actual lives. The hatred – what is that about? It’s a fear of your own weakness.”
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 4:46 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
The House should open impeachment proceedings on Barr (unless there is private pressure from Republicans to make Barr resign and it's just a matter of time before he's pushed out). Anyone disagree with that take?


It may send a message but I don't think anything would come of it.
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