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ChefLinda
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:06 am    Post subject:

Relating to all these government officials saying they didn't "realize" Guiliani/Trump wanting to investigate "Burisma" was really about investigating Biden. Here is a prominent well reported story from back in May 2019 (which preceded all the July through Sept 2019 shenanigans):

05/11/2019: Giuliani cancels Ukraine trip amid political meddling charges

Quote:
Rudy Giuliani, the president’s personal lawyer, announced late Friday that he was canceling an upcoming trip to Ukraine after he came under criticism for saying he planned to talk to the country’s new leaders about investigations that could boost President Donald Trump politically.

Giuliani had said he was planning to meet with Ukraine’s president-elect, Volodymyr Zelensky, to encourage him to look into Hunter Biden’s involvement with a Ukrainian energy company and Joe Biden’s attempts as vice president to oust a Ukrainian prosecutor accused of ignoring corruption among the country’s elite.

But the move came under attack from Democrats and former law enforcement officials who accused Giuliani of trying to pressure a foreign government to target Biden, who's running for president, ahead of the 2020 election. Giuliani also said he hoped to discuss a Ukrainian investigation into the origins of the FBI probe of Russian interference in the 2016 election.

“Today, Giuliani admitted to seeking political help from a foreign power. Again,” House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff wrote on Twitter.


I don't understand why they haven't confronted any of the witnesses with this.
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ChefLinda
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:11 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
What Dem candidate do you guys think addresses Trump's base the best? What candidate minimizes the power Trump's base has in 2020 and beyond?

Cause I can see the argument for Biden and Pete. They are both moderate. They talk about returning to the more unified America that directly predated Trump. And they are white men (which is a requirement for Presidency among Republicans).

But I also see how progressive policy can address the "populist" issues Trump tapped into. And that conservative media will pretend a moderate Dem is just as extreme as a progressive.


I've said this a thousand times, we need to excite and expand our own base (a la Obama and what happened in the 2018 mid-terms) and stop trying to pander to Trump's base and the non-college educated white men who haven't consistently voted for the Democratic party since the 60's once the civil rights and women's rights issues came to the forefront.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:16 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
governator wrote:
kikanga wrote:
What Dem candidate do you guys think addresses Trump's base the best? What candidate minimizes the power Trump's base has in 2020 and beyond?

Cause I can see the argument for Biden and Pete. They are both moderate. They talk about returning to the more unified America that directly predated Trump. And they are white men (which is a requirement for Presidency among Republicans).

But I also see how progressive policy can address the "populist" issues Trump tapped into. And that conservative media will pretend a moderate Dem is just as extreme as a progressive.


no candidate can break into that cult so limit the size of that base


What candidate limits the size of that base the best in your opinion? And why?


I'm tempted to say Bernie or Yang for their populous support but I think the moderates like Biden or maybe Pete should just push their policies (have to come with great messaging package) to get those on the fringes of Trump's base to switch side... as much as I don't wanna say it, Biden, familiarity, white, male
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:18 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
kikanga wrote:
What Dem candidate do you guys think addresses Trump's base the best? What candidate minimizes the power Trump's base has in 2020 and beyond?

Cause I can see the argument for Biden and Pete. They are both moderate. They talk about returning to the more unified America that directly predated Trump. And they are white men (which is a requirement for Presidency among Republicans).

But I also see how progressive policy can address the "populist" issues Trump tapped into. And that conservative media will pretend a moderate Dem is just as extreme as a progressive.


I've said this a thousand times, we need to excite and expand our own base (a la Obama and what happened in the 2018 mid-terms) and stop trying to pander to Trump's base and the non-college educated white men who haven't consistently voted for the Democratic party since the 60's once the civil rights and women's rights issues came to the forefront.


And you are exactly right. There is no one on the Democratic side that even remotely will stir with Trump's base.

The divide is too deep, the disconnect too distant and the contempt too strong.

There's no path to any appeal there.
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Last edited by DaMuleRules on Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:25 am    Post subject:

Handwritten statement Trump just read to the press about Sondland and Ukraine

in case anyone thought that picture was a joke from The Onion.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:29 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
kikanga wrote:
What Dem candidate do you guys think addresses Trump's base the best? What candidate minimizes the power Trump's base has in 2020 and beyond?

Cause I can see the argument for Biden and Pete. They are both moderate. They talk about returning to the more unified America that directly predated Trump. And they are white men (which is a requirement for Presidency among Republicans).

But I also see how progressive policy can address the "populist" issues Trump tapped into. And that conservative media will pretend a moderate Dem is just as extreme as a progressive.


I've said this a thousand times, we need to excite and expand our own base (a la Obama and what happened in the 2018 mid-terms) and stop trying to pander to Trump's base and the non-college educated white men who haven't consistently voted for the Democratic party since the 60's once the civil rights and women's rights issues came to the forefront.


I don't think this is historically true. The white working class, unions (thinking Dick Gephardt's old district) used to be friendly territory for Democrats.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:30 am    Post subject:

I don't think anyone believes winning 51% or anything close to that percentage of non-college educated white men is the objective. But instead of losing that segment of society by enormous margins, maybe it's possible to lose that segment by less enormous margins. I think that's what Biden's goal is, especially since some of those non-college educated white men voted for Obama and then either voted for Trump or didn't vote in places like Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. Despite the fact that much of the Democratic base doesn't like Biden, there is a reason that he consistently beats Trump by larger margins than all other Dem candidates in polls, and that's because a portion of the aforementioned demographic is willing to vote for him. Is that a winning strategy in the general election? We have no idea.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:53 am    Post subject:

Hector the Pup wrote:
Handwritten statement Trump just read to the press about Sondland and Ukraine

in case anyone thought that picture was a joke from The Onion.


For those Howard Stern fans out there, he sounded like Jeff The Drunk.

One thing that was especially embarrassing was when he said, "there - I said it twice," as if someone told him, "you should say it twice." Jackassery!
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ribeye
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:24 am    Post subject:

Jackie Speier: The president has 5 Pinocchios on a daily basis so let's not go there.

BAM!

Wow. Jackie hits all the points, at least the two I've been waiting for anyway: speaking in code and that it is Russia who benefits from the delay in funding.
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ContagiousInspiration
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:58 am    Post subject:

Who delayed the funding?
Needs to be asked of everyone they talk to

Who has that power? Mulvaney and Trump?
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ribeye
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:58 am    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Who delayed the funding?
Needs to be asked of everyone they talk to

Who has that power? Mulvaney and Trump?


Yep, though not in that order.
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vanexelent
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:18 pm    Post subject:

Patrick Maloney needs to be more time.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:21 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
Patrick Maloney needs to be more time.

Maloney killed the last hearing I watched to. His questions get straight to the point with precision. He and Schiff get the best quotes from whoever is testifying.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:24 pm    Post subject:

Talking about his conversation with Ambassador Sondland not verbatim.

I want nothing, that's what I want, I want nothing from Ukrain. I want nothing nothing, I want no quid pro quo. If you weren't fake new you'd report it that way. What is supposed to say?
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Last edited by jodeke on Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:25 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
Patrick Maloney needs to be more time.

Maloney killed the last hearing I watched to. His questions get straight to the point with precision. He and Schiff get the best quotes from whoever is testifying.


What did he get Sondland to admit? The admission that led to the "that didn't hurt, did it?" comment?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:28 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Talking about his conversation with Ambassador Sondland not verbatim.

I want nothing, that's what I want, I want nothing from Ukrain. I want nothing nothing, I want no quid pro quo. If you weren't fake new you'd report it that way. What is supposed to say?


Of course, that conversation just happened to occur the day the whistleblower report got to the intel committee.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:30 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
Patrick Maloney needs to be more time.


What is given?

Oh, not a jeopardy question.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:33 pm    Post subject:

Who here believes this impeachment hearing will lead to a trial?
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Last edited by jodeke on Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:33 pm    Post subject:

Wilt wrote:
I don't think anyone believes winning 51% or anything close to that percentage of non-college educated white men is the objective. But instead of losing that segment of society by enormous margins, maybe it's possible to lose that segment by less enormous margins. I think that's what Biden's goal is, especially since some of those non-college educated white men voted for Obama and then either voted for Trump or didn't vote in places like Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. Despite the fact that much of the Democratic base doesn't like Biden, there is a reason that he consistently beats Trump by larger margins than all other Dem candidates in polls, and that's because a portion of the aforementioned demographic is willing to vote for him. Is that a winning strategy in the general election? We have no idea.


Bingo. This is why the line about marijuana. I’m not sure I agree with their rope a dope strategy is what I’d go with, but it is getting pretty clear they decided to weather Iowa and New Hampshire and mostly hold fire early.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:36 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
kikanga wrote:
What Dem candidate do you guys think addresses Trump's base the best? What candidate minimizes the power Trump's base has in 2020 and beyond?

Cause I can see the argument for Biden and Pete. They are both moderate. They talk about returning to the more unified America that directly predated Trump. And they are white men (which is a requirement for Presidency among Republicans).

But I also see how progressive policy can address the "populist" issues Trump tapped into. And that conservative media will pretend a moderate Dem is just as extreme as a progressive.


I've said this a thousand times, we need to excite and expand our own base (a la Obama and what happened in the 2018 mid-terms) and stop trying to pander to Trump's base and the non-college educated white men who haven't consistently voted for the Democratic party since the 60's once the civil rights and women's rights issues came to the forefront.


I don't think this is historically true. The white working class, unions (thinking Dick Gephardt's old district) used to be friendly territory for Democrats.


Obama also courted and winter a significant portion of the middle. Hillary actually turned the base out at higher clip.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:44 pm    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Who delayed the funding?
Needs to be asked of everyone they talk to

Who has that power? Mulvaney and Trump?

Schiff just addressed that in his closing.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:51 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
Patrick Maloney needs to be more time.


What is given?

Oh, not a jeopardy question.


https://twitter.com/HayesBrown/status/1197248787762122752

I want more of this.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:52 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
kikanga wrote:
What Dem candidate do you guys think addresses Trump's base the best? What candidate minimizes the power Trump's base has in 2020 and beyond?

Cause I can see the argument for Biden and Pete. They are both moderate. They talk about returning to the more unified America that directly predated Trump. And they are white men (which is a requirement for Presidency among Republicans).

But I also see how progressive policy can address the "populist" issues Trump tapped into. And that conservative media will pretend a moderate Dem is just as extreme as a progressive.


I would guess Yang because he most captures the aura of "the outsider", and that was impressive for many of the people who decided the election. It would also largely diffuse Trump's best (only) argument in debates and on the stump that his opponent is a swampy, corrupt, super-connected career pol who can't be trusted. It's hard to imagine what he was would even say against him other than the standard accusations of socialism which you can pencil in for every candidate.


Yeah, but when they hear his UBI policy, they'll say he's even more of a "commie".
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:53 pm    Post subject:

Volodymyr Zelensky has to say "no quid pro quo, no pressure" if he didn't he most likely wouldn't get the needed aid. I think he felt intimidated If he gets the aid I'd like someone to ask him again.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:16 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Volodymyr Zelensky has to say "no quid pro quo, no pressure" if he didn't he most likely wouldn't get the needed aid. I think he felt intimidated If he gets the aid I'd like someone to ask him again.


He also got elected primarily to combat corruption. So if he admitted to being extorted by Trump in a corrupt act, that would go against the entire rationale of his presidency. So he can never admit to this. The Republicans know this, but they can only use stupid arguments like that one because they don't have good arguments to defend Trump.
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