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DaMuleRules
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 Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | CNN audio picked up post-debate conversation
| Quote: | "I think you called me a liar on national TV," Warren can be heard saying.
"What?" Sanders responded.
"I think you called me a liar on national TV," she repeated.
"You know, let's not do it right now. If you want to have that discussion, we'll have that discussion," Sanders said, to which Warren replied, "Anytime."
"You called me a liar," Sanders continued. "You told me -- all right, let's not do it now." |
I believe her, not him. |
I really don't think there is anyone to "believe" or not believe on this one because I think the whole thing was a misunderstanding/misrepresentation of what occurred thanks to media conflation.
It all comes down to an important difference between acknowledging sexism exists versus actually engaging in sexism. From what both Sanders and Warren have said on the matter, the former was the case.
You yourself posted a day or so ago re-iterating that you firmly believe sexism was a huge factor in why Hilary lost (and I think you are right). There's little reason to think that dynamic has disappeared. If anything, under Trump, it's increased.
It'd be great if people (including Warren and Sanders) would put this event to bed and move on to issues that actually matter.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now
Last edited by DaMuleRules on Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Huey Lewis & The News
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Location: So what's the uh...topic of discussion?
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Huey Lewis & The News wrote: |
CNN is the enemy! |
There are so many perceived and declared enemies these days, it is impossible to keep track of who gets the label at any given hour.
One thing I do know is, the Russians are winning. They may not be an enemy to some, but they are definitely winning. Their bots are doing a number on the whole country, regardless of political leaning.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now
Last edited by DaMuleRules on Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Huey Lewis & The News
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | Huey Lewis & The News wrote: |
CNN is the enemy! |
There are so many enemies these days, it is impossible to keep track.
One thing I do know is, the Russians are winning. Their bots are doing a number on the whole country, regardless of political leaning. |
Agree. Despite the mountains of documentation that have come out since '16, we are right in the meaty heart of rusky interference.
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focus
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | CNN audio picked up post-debate conversation
| Quote: | "I think you called me a liar on national TV," Warren can be heard saying.
"What?" Sanders responded.
"I think you called me a liar on national TV," she repeated.
"You know, let's not do it right now. If you want to have that discussion, we'll have that discussion," Sanders said, to which Warren replied, "Anytime."
"You called me a liar," Sanders continued. "You told me -- all right, let's not do it now." |
I believe her, not him. |
They both said the other called them a liar and that is essentially what happened: she said Sanders said this. He said no I didn't, that's wrong. Then this exchange each says the other called them a liar. True.
I believe one or both is misremembering what was actually said based on both of them and their character. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: |
I have zero doubt whatsoever that he expressed doubt that a woman could win the election. Warren isn't making it up. The question is whether or not he specifically said that a woman can't win, or whether he expressed doubt as to whether or not a woman could win. It's one or the other. There's no way Warren is just making this up out of thin air. |
That was never even up for debate. Both sides acknowledge the basic content of the conversation. The only bone of contention is how much one is going to buy into the nonsense that has grown out of this.
We all know the societal disadvantage that a woman has running for president because we saw it play out 4 years ago.
Acknowledging that is very important.
Turning it into a pissing match over semantics and context is foolish.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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focus
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | Huey Lewis & The News wrote: |
CNN is the enemy! |
There are so many perceived and declared enemies these days, it is impossible to keep track of who gets the label at any given hour.
One thing I do know is, the Russians are winning. They may not be an enemy to some, but they are definitely winning. Their bots are doing a number on the whole country, regardless of political leaning. |
How do you know this? I mean about the bots right now. I'd guess Russians are firing away but is there some news about this that's about recent activity?
Minor comment re CNN, there was some definite bias against Bernie at some points and I just caught a part of it with all the noise at home. It was ridiculous and obvious, but I think it's import is overstated. Media is going to media, for all candidates to some extent. That was pretty terrible, but still within what the Sanders campaign should expect and they should expect a lot worse to come. Can't get distracted or outraged for predictable things. |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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I don't care if he said it. I care that he's a two-faced liar. He just lied the other day about the campaign script. He lied when he said he would release his medical records post heart attack. He lied plenty in 2016 too and I have long memory. It goes to his credibility and it's a little too Trump-like for me after the last several years.
Last edited by ChefLinda on Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Bernie could have said from the beginning, "I think we must have misunderstood one another because that's not what I intended to communicate. And I apologize if it came off that way." Instead he went right into defensive superior guy mode, "I NEVER SAID THAT! THAT'S NOT TRUE!, all but implying that she's a liar. I've lived that moment hundreds of times in my life and I'm sure millions of other women have too. It's a huge red flag for someone who wants to lead the nation.
Last edited by ChefLinda on Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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focus
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Watching Maddow replay now. Good grief are we actually dependent on Bolton to nail him? I hope not, for what that means about where we are, but if it does, really hope he says the truth. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | | I don't care if he said it. I care that he's a two-faced liar. He just lied the other day about the campaign script. He lied when he said he would release his medical records post heart attack. He lied plenty in 2016 too and I have long memory. It goes to his credibility and it's a little to Trump-like for me after the last several years. |
Clearly you do (and there's nothing wrong with that) or you wouldn't be continuing the controversy about it.
I share your issues with Bernie's credibility, but they really don't play into this event that has been blown out of proportion and turned into an incredibly disturbing distraction thanks to media manipulation.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | I don't care if he said it. I care that he's a two-faced liar. He just lied the other day about the campaign script. He lied when he said he would release his medical records post heart attack. He lied plenty in 2016 too and I have long memory. It goes to his credibility and it's a little to Trump-like for me after the last several years. |
Clearly you do (and there's nothing wrong with that) or you wouldn't be continuing the controversy about it.
I share your issues with Bernie's credibility, but they really don't play into this event that has been blown out of proportion and turned into an incredibly disturbing distraction thanks to media manipulation. |
I care that he's a hypocrite when it comes to the issue of sexism. And yes his credibility on that issue was definitely on display in this event. No one speaks perfectly all the time, including Warren. But how he handled it was atrocious with a definite whiff of misogyny. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | | Bernie could have said from the beginning, "I think we must have misunderstood one another because that's not what I intended to communicate. And I apologize if it came off that way." Instead he went right into defensive superior guy mode, "I NEVER SAID THAT! THAT'S NOT TRUE!, all but implying that she's a liar. I've lived that moment hundreds of times in my life and I'm sure millions of other women have too. It's a huge red flag for someone who wants to lead the nation. |
And one could argue that Warren could have decisively cleared things up by saying, "Yes, Bernie said that 'A woman can't win.'" But she didn't. She danced around it.
Again, I get back to your own words that Hilary lost in large part to sexism. I'm baffled as to why you want to controvert that in order to perpetuate party division to go after Bernie for acknowledging the same. And this is coming form someone who prefers Warren to Bernie.
But by all means, let's keep up foolish infighting amongst the Left.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | Bernie could have said from the beginning, "I think we must have misunderstood one another because that's not what I intended to communicate. And I apologize if it came off that way." Instead he went right into defensive superior guy mode, "I NEVER SAID THAT! THAT'S NOT TRUE!, all but implying that she's a liar. I've lived that moment hundreds of times in my life and I'm sure millions of other women have too. It's a huge red flag for someone who wants to lead the nation. |
And one could argue that Warren could have decisively cleared things up by saying, "Yes, Bernie said that 'A woman can't win.'" But she didn't. She danced around it.
Again, I get back to your own words that Hilary lost in large part to sexism. I'm baffled as to why you want to controvert that in order to perpetuate party division to go after Bernie for acknowledging the same. And this is coming form someone who prefers Warren to Bernie. |
I guess you weren't on Twitter today with multiple misogynistic hashtags directed at Warren all day (Hillary 2.0). I've just had it up to here with the bros today and their head bro. And I'm sure the Russian bots were helping them -- which is why I didn't bring it up on the board today.
It's precisely because of the sexism directed at Hillary that I am doubly upset about it happening again to Warren.
Last edited by ChefLinda on Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hate watching the infighting. Because it hurts both candidates. And the stakes couldn't be higher.
Hope this is a distant memory election day 2020.
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focus
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | | I don't care if he said it. I care that he's a two-faced liar. He just lied the other day about the campaign script. He lied when he said he would release his medical records post heart attack. He lied plenty in 2016 too and I have long memory. It goes to his credibility and it's a little too Trump-like for me after the last several years. |
You're always more tuned in to news than I am, but what was the script thing?
I just looked up his medical records statement in the news, while listening to the parnas maddow replay in the background, and it does seem he didn't do what he said after coming back from his attack which was to release comprehensive records. Then he said probably not to releasing more than those letters. You can say that's a lie, and I can't argue. I think he may have felt he spoke too fast and expansively to assure people after he came back, and regretted it, and changed his mind given below, but it's definitely fair to believe he lied on this point.
"Sanders is correct that his release of letters from his doctors is roughly in line with what other candidates have released. Former Vice President Joe Biden released a detailed medical summary several weeks ago that concluded he is “a healthy, vigorous, 77-year-old male, who is fit to successfully execute the duties of the Presidency.”
It’s also similar to what 2016 Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton released within days of a minor health episode."
That's from mediaite, not sure how reliable.
I still don't see him as a liar. I don't think he lied about this. Maybe a miscommunication, still overall wait and see for me. Neither campaign got into it today so maybe they're conversing. |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| focus wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | I don't care if he said it. I care that he's a two-faced liar. He just lied the other day about the campaign script. He lied when he said he would release his medical records post heart attack. He lied plenty in 2016 too and I have long memory. It goes to his credibility and it's a little too Trump-like for me after the last several years. |
You're always more tuned in to news than I am, but what was the script thing?
I just looked up his medical records statement in the news, while listening to the parnas maddow replay in the background, and it does seem he didn't do what he said after coming back from his attack which was to release comprehensive records. Then he said probably not to releasing more than those letters. You can say that's a lie, and I can't argue. I think he may have felt he spoke too fast and expansively to assure people after he came back, and regretted it, and changed his mind given below, but it's definitely fair to believe he lied on this point.
"Sanders is correct that his release of letters from his doctors is roughly in line with what other candidates have released. Former Vice President Joe Biden released a detailed medical summary several weeks ago that concluded he is “a healthy, vigorous, 77-year-old male, who is fit to successfully execute the duties of the Presidency.”
It’s also similar to what 2016 Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton released within days of a minor health episode."
That's from mediaite, not sure how reliable.
I still don't see him as a liar. I don't think he lied about this. Maybe a miscommunication, still overall wait and see for me. Neither campaign got into it today so maybe they're conversing. |
Sanders camp admits anti-Warren script was deployed in multiple early states. Sanders initially attributed the talking points to rogue staffers, and supporters launched an online campaign to convince people the document was fake. |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| And if Bernie is the nominee I will still vote for him over the impeached criminal mob boss in the White House. |
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focus
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | | Bernie could have said from the beginning, "I think we must have misunderstood one another because that's not what I intended to communicate. And I apologize if it came off that way." Instead he went right into defensive superior guy mode, "I NEVER SAID THAT! THAT'S NOT TRUE!, all but implying that she's a liar. I've lived that moment hundreds of times in my life and I'm sure millions of other women have too. It's a huge red flag for someone who wants to lead the nation. |
He sincerely feels he didn't say that. You want him not to be defensive when someone says he's a sexist to the whole world? Why wouldn't he feel defensive. He's the one being targeted there. She's saying he's a liar, not implying he's a liar. By saying, no I didn't say that, he's implying she's a liar. You're right. What does someone who wants to deny that statement have left to do if they know otherwise?
I think we misunderstood each other? I don't expect that level of equanimity considering the accusation and its import. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | I guess you weren't on Twitter today with multiple misogynistic hashtags directed at Warren all day (Hillary 2.0). I've just had it up to here with the bros today and their head bro. And I'm sure the Russian bots were helping them -- which is why I didn't bring it up on the board today.
It's precisely because of the sexism directed at Hillary that I am doubly upset about it happening again to Warren. |
I get it and I sympathize. But it's not Bernie's fault that is what is going on. At worst, he acknowledged the same thing I believe you and I both agree on . . . sexism is still a very real issue and a potential barrier to a woman becoming President. That's not an indictment of women, it's just another non-partisan fact. =)
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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focus
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | | And if Bernie is the nominee I will still vote for him over the impeached criminal mob boss in the White House. |
Well Warren has been and will be my preferred second choice if Bernie doesn't get it, until yesterday by far. It might be in my post history, but I've always admired her since I first heard about her views as a professor. i was excited when she first ran for public office, and loved her testimony and style. When I heard buzz about her running for president, i was really moved. I might have written an email to some organization pushing for her or maybe her old harvard email was public, I don't recall offhand (I'd regretted not being as engaged as I wanted for Obama's run for the long campaign). I don't know if my posts are visible here, but I was pretty disappointed she didn't keep going up in the polls after she kind of took the lead and stagnated and went down. So she was not just my second choice but my easy easy second choice, and that was pretty much pending how she talked about foreign policy, although I was pretty certain Bernie was my first pick.
So summing up, I believed in them both. But this thing yesterday makes me feel like this was a plan. I hope I'm wrong and since I wasn't on top of this thing from the beginning. I'm not sure what to think yet, but I do know that if he's not the winner, I still prefer her to anyone else. To be honest, Buttigieg scares me in a Ted Cruz way, Biden scares me for other reasons, the billionaires I'm close to neverguyswhobuyelections. klobuchar I think I'll take another look, although already with big reservations on foreign policy. Still, that may not differentiate her from the non-Bernie candidates (if Warren doesn't herself). |
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focus
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| Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | I guess you weren't on Twitter today with multiple misogynistic hashtags directed at Warren all day (Hillary 2.0). I've just had it up to here with the bros today and their head bro. And I'm sure the Russian bots were helping them -- which is why I didn't bring it up on the board today.
It's precisely because of the sexism directed at Hillary that I am doubly upset about it happening again to Warren. |
I get it and I sympathize. But it's not Bernie's fault that is what is going on. At worst, he acknowledged the same thing I believe you and I both agree on . . . sexism is still a very real issue and a potential barrier to a woman becoming President. That's not an indictment of women, it's just another non-partisan fact. =) |
As someone who's defending Bernie, it's weird for me to say, but no, at worst conceptually is that he said what she said he said and is at heart a sexist. Someone actually being that should be a career-ender IF true. It required a vigorous defense if he didn't say it because of its import. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | I guess you weren't on Twitter today with multiple misogynistic hashtags directed at Warren all day (Hillary 2.0). I've just had it up to here with the bros today and their head bro. And I'm sure the Russian bots were helping them -- which is why I didn't bring it up on the board today.
It's precisely because of the sexism directed at Hillary that I am doubly upset about it happening again to Warren. |
The things I've read online directed toward Warren from Bernie supporters (real and bots). It's been equal parts disgusting and disappointing.
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:48 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | I guess you weren't on Twitter today with multiple misogynistic hashtags directed at Warren all day (Hillary 2.0). I've just had it up to here with the bros today and their head bro. And I'm sure the Russian bots were helping them -- which is why I didn't bring it up on the board today.
It's precisely because of the sexism directed at Hillary that I am doubly upset about it happening again to Warren. |
The things I've read online directed toward Warren from Bernie supporters (real and bots). It's been equal parts disgusting and disappointing. |
I agree with this, and I am not even a huge Warren fan. I was awake early AM yesterday because I came home from tennis after 10PM and so I watched the re-broadcast of the debate. That was over sometime after midnight, and I stayed up for about 3 hours after that. On Twitter in the early AM hours, "#Never Warren" was trending and if you looked at that thread, it was pretty ridiculous. |
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