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governator
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:35 am    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
Quote:
Ukraine Is Investigating Whether Marie Yovanovitch Was Under Surveillance By Rudy Giuliani's Associates

“Ukraine cannot ignore such illegal activities on its territory,” an official from the country's interior ministry said.


https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/christopherm51/ukraine-impeachment-lev-parnas-marie-yovanovitch


How will Trump respond, stop all payments to Ukraine or allow Russia to invade them further?


I don't know but the fact that Pelosi sent the article to senate to start the trial gives me hope that the dems got something new (Lev Parnas, maybe spoken to Bolton privately)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:40 am    Post subject:

https://www.npr.org/2020/01/15/796754345/virginia-ratifies-the-equal-rights-amendment-decades-after-deadline

Virginia became the pivotal 38th state to ratify the Equal Rights Amendment after its Senate and House of Delegates voted Wednesday to approve the change to the U.S. Constitution.

The ERA's provisions include a guarantee that "equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex."

Congress approved the ERA in 1972 and set a ratification deadline of 1979, which was later extended to 1982. Indiana became the 35th state to ratify the amendment, in 1977 — leaving it three states shy of the threshold. And there things stalled.

That changed in recent years, as advocates mounted a new push. Nevada ratified the ERA in 2017, and Illinois followed suit a year later.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:57 am    Post subject:

Parnas has documentation backing up his words. Text messages, emails, payments, receipts. He's threatening to release a photo each time Trump denies knowing him. He's saying Trump, Pence, Barr, Giuliani, Nunes knew what he was doing.

If Parnas wasn't out on bail right now. He'd be dead already. And prosecutors have tried to get his bail overturned (unsuccessfully).
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:22 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:

It'd be great if people (including Warren and Sanders) would put this event to bed and move on to issues that actually matter.


Yes, so let's ALL do just that.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:39 am    Post subject:

It’s probably not coincidental that Pelosi sent the impeachment articles right after the Parnas stuff was received and became part of the record.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:42 am    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:

It'd be great if people (including Warren and Sanders) would put this event to bed and move on to issues that actually matter.


Yes, so let's ALL do just that.

Idk, having Dem centrists and progressives holding guns to one another's heads awaiting inevitable mutually assured destruction seems to be what entertains the citizenry.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:42 am    Post subject:

. . . but, but, but, but what laws did he break?

Trump’s hold of Ukraine aid was illegal, according to the US government’s top watchdog

Quote:
The US government’s top internal watchdog has determined that the Trump administration broke the law when it withheld military aid to Ukraine last year after Congress had approved its disbursal.

Coming on the very day the Senate is swearing in the judge in President Donald Trump’s impeachment trial, the finding could potentially bolster Democrats’ case that the president should be convicted in its impeachment trial next week.

In a legal opinion released Thursday, the US Government Accountability Office (GAO) found the Office of Management and Budget’s (OMB) decision to keep $400 million in Pentagon assistance to Ukraine for a “policy reason” in violation of the Impoundment Control Act of 1974
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governator
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:43 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
ribeye wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:

It'd be great if people (including Warren and Sanders) would put this event to bed and move on to issues that actually matter.


Yes, so let's ALL do just that.

Idk, having Dem centrists and progressives holding guns to one another's heads awaiting inevitable mutually assured destruction seems to be what entertains the citizenry.

typical primary stuff, we'll all vote for Biden comes november
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:49 am    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
. . . but, but, but, but what laws did he break?

Trump’s hold of Ukraine aid was illegal, according to the US government’s top watchdog

Quote:
The US government’s top internal watchdog has determined that the Trump administration broke the law when it withheld military aid to Ukraine last year after Congress had approved its disbursal.

Coming on the very day the Senate is swearing in the judge in President Donald Trump’s impeachment trial, the finding could potentially bolster Democrats’ case that the president should be convicted in its impeachment trial next week.

In a legal opinion released Thursday, the US Government Accountability Office (GAO) found the Office of Management and Budget’s (OMB) decision to keep $400 million in Pentagon assistance to Ukraine for a “policy reason” in violation of the Impoundment Control Act of 1974


Trump voters will simultaneously find this to be the actions of the deep state AND fake news.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:55 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Parnas has documentation backing up his words. Text messages, emails, payments, receipts. He's threatening to release a photo each time Trump denies knowing him. He's saying Trump, Pence, Barr, Giuliani, Nunes knew what he was doing.

If Parnas wasn't out on bail right now. He'd be dead already. And prosecutors have tried to get his bail overturned (unsuccessfully).


There's no need to go to the trouble of whacking the guy because no one's going to be able to do anything to punish those involved.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:55 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
ribeye wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:

It'd be great if people (including Warren and Sanders) would put this event to bed and move on to issues that actually matter.


Yes, so let's ALL do just that.

Idk, having Dem centrists and progressives holding guns to one another's heads awaiting inevitable mutually assured destruction seems to be what entertains the citizenry.


Or it's just what we call a primary and this is what happens with every single one of them.

I look at people who complain about this stuff the same way I look at people who comment on how it gets dark so much later every year at daylight savings time. Either their memories are terribly short or this this the first time they have paid attention.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:57 am    Post subject:

Hector the Pup wrote:
I look at people who complain about this stuff the same way I look at people who comment on how it gets dark so much later every year at daylight savings time. Either their memories are terribly short or this this the first time they have paid attention.


It's not that we haven't seen it before (or don't remember it), it's that the consequences of it have become far, far more detrimental than in the past . . .
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:00 am    Post subject:

It will be interesting to see what if any effects there are from the dust up. A move toward Warren would actually help Biden in Iowa and NH.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:26 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
ribeye wrote:
. . . but, but, but, but what laws did he break?

Trump’s hold of Ukraine aid was illegal, according to the US government’s top watchdog

Quote:
The US government’s top internal watchdog has determined that the Trump administration broke the law when it withheld military aid to Ukraine last year after Congress had approved its disbursal.

Coming on the very day the Senate is swearing in the judge in President Donald Trump’s impeachment trial, the finding could potentially bolster Democrats’ case that the president should be convicted in its impeachment trial next week.

In a legal opinion released Thursday, the US Government Accountability Office (GAO) found the Office of Management and Budget’s (OMB) decision to keep $400 million in Pentagon assistance to Ukraine for a “policy reason” in violation of the Impoundment Control Act of 1974


Trump voters will simultaneously find this to be the actions of the deep state AND fake news.



Quote:
In a legal opinion released Thursday


It's just some liberal, Obama era agency's opinion. Drain the Swamp!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:33 am    Post subject:

Hector the Pup wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
ribeye wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:

It'd be great if people (including Warren and Sanders) would put this event to bed and move on to issues that actually matter.


Yes, so let's ALL do just that.

Idk, having Dem centrists and progressives holding guns to one another's heads awaiting inevitable mutually assured destruction seems to be what entertains the citizenry.


Or it's just what we call a primary and this is what happens with every single one of them.

I look at people who complain about this stuff the same way I look at people who comment on how it gets dark so much later every year at daylight savings time. Either their memories are terribly short or this this the first time they have paid attention.


And there's less appetite for it given the Sword of Damocles that is Trump. I suspect half the party right now would prefer to turn back the clock 100 years and let the party bosses pick the nominee while drinking sherry.

I will say that I think Warren's shot (this story about "the conversation" was all her doing, IMO) was an especially low blow.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:34 am    Post subject:

Hector the Pup wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
ribeye wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:

It'd be great if people (including Warren and Sanders) would put this event to bed and move on to issues that actually matter.


Yes, so let's ALL do just that.

Idk, having Dem centrists and progressives holding guns to one another's heads awaiting inevitable mutually assured destruction seems to be what entertains the citizenry.


Or it's just what we call a primary and this is what happens with every single one of them.

I look at people who complain about this stuff the same way I look at people who comment on how it gets dark so much later every year at daylight savings time. Either their memories are terribly short or this this the first time they have paid attention.

I treat this as a safe space to kvetch *shrug* Good line, though.

Anyway, to bring it back around to more substantive discussion, I'm wondering what the utility of a rabid Bernie base would be when it comes to actual governance. Trump's rabid base theoretically keeps more moderate Republicans from curbing his criminal activities while his policies mostly hew towards GOP orthodoxy outside of the occasional threat of tariffs.

But how many Bernie bros make up Joe Manchin's constituency versus crypto-Republican independents and centrists? If Bernie and the Democrats are even lucky enough to have Joe Manchin as the deciding vote in passing M4A, what practical use is that rabid base except to flood Manchin's DC office with angry calls from Brooklynites his staff will ignore and some salty online memes?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:35 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
Hector the Pup wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
ribeye wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:

It'd be great if people (including Warren and Sanders) would put this event to bed and move on to issues that actually matter.


Yes, so let's ALL do just that.

Idk, having Dem centrists and progressives holding guns to one another's heads awaiting inevitable mutually assured destruction seems to be what entertains the citizenry.


Or it's just what we call a primary and this is what happens with every single one of them.

I look at people who complain about this stuff the same way I look at people who comment on how it gets dark so much later every year at daylight savings time. Either their memories are terribly short or this this the first time they have paid attention.


And there's less appetite for it given the Sword of Damocles that is Trump. I suspect half the party right now would prefer to turn back the clock 100 years and let the party bosses pick the nominee while drinking sherry.

I will say that I think Warren's shot (this story about "the conversation" was all her doing, IMO) was an especially low blow.

ETA: have a good day
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:36 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
It will be interesting to see what if any effects there are from the dust up. A move toward Warren would actually help Biden in Iowa and NH.


I'm okay with that. I'd rather have the jovial old dude than the cranky old dude if we can't get the smart & cheerful old gal. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And having a preference on personality type for POTUS isn't a shallow preference in my experience. The personality of the POTUS often sets the tone for the administration and the nation as a whole.

I can't take another four years of angry, yelling, complaining, blaming, victimhood, emotionally immature POTUS.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:38 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
It will be interesting to see what if any effects there are from the dust up. A move toward Warren would actually help Biden in Iowa and NH.


I'm okay with that. I'd rather have the jovial old dude than the cranky old dude if we can't get the smart & cheerful old gal. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And having a preference on personality type for POTUS isn't a shallow preference in my experience. The personality of the POTUS often sets the tone for the administration and the nation as a whole.

I can't take another four years of angry, yelling, complaining, blaming, victimhood, emotionally immature POTUS.


You call yourself a "progressive" and you'd rather have Biden...
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:41 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
Hector the Pup wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
ribeye wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:

It'd be great if people (including Warren and Sanders) would put this event to bed and move on to issues that actually matter.


Yes, so let's ALL do just that.

Idk, having Dem centrists and progressives holding guns to one another's heads awaiting inevitable mutually assured destruction seems to be what entertains the citizenry.


Or it's just what we call a primary and this is what happens with every single one of them.

I look at people who complain about this stuff the same way I look at people who comment on how it gets dark so much later every year at daylight savings time. Either their memories are terribly short or this this the first time they have paid attention.


And there's less appetite for it given the Sword of Damocles that is Trump. I suspect half the party right now would prefer to turn back the clock 100 years and let the party bosses pick the nominee while drinking sherry.

I will say that I think Warren's shot (this story about "the conversation" was all her doing, IMO) was an especially low blow.


Because when male politicians play hardball, it's described as "normal" and "smart" and "strategic" but when a female politician plays hardball it's a "low blow." Just asking you to consider your own thought process. Was it also a "low blow" to have campaign staff suggest the other candidate is too elite through a scripted Q&A?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:46 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
It will be interesting to see what if any effects there are from the dust up. A move toward Warren would actually help Biden in Iowa and NH.


I'm okay with that. I'd rather have the jovial old dude than the cranky old dude if we can't get the smart & cheerful old gal. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And having a preference on personality type for POTUS isn't a shallow preference in my experience. The personality of the POTUS often sets the tone for the administration and the nation as a whole.

I can't take another four years of angry, yelling, complaining, blaming, victimhood, emotionally immature POTUS.


You call yourself a "progressive" and you'd rather have Biden...


I've lived long enough to understand the complexity of this particular election when it comes to people's strengths and weaknesses as a whole. This is not a zero sum game where you get everything you want. Making progress one election at a time is preferred to Trump and Republicans setting us back decades. That's how this works in the real world.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:56 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
Hector the Pup wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
ribeye wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:

It'd be great if people (including Warren and Sanders) would put this event to bed and move on to issues that actually matter.


Yes, so let's ALL do just that.

Idk, having Dem centrists and progressives holding guns to one another's heads awaiting inevitable mutually assured destruction seems to be what entertains the citizenry.


Or it's just what we call a primary and this is what happens with every single one of them.

I look at people who complain about this stuff the same way I look at people who comment on how it gets dark so much later every year at daylight savings time. Either their memories are terribly short or this this the first time they have paid attention.


And there's less appetite for it given the Sword of Damocles that is Trump. I suspect half the party right now would prefer to turn back the clock 100 years and let the party bosses pick the nominee while drinking sherry.

I will say that I think Warren's shot (this story about "the conversation" was all her doing, IMO) was an especially low blow.


Meh, I suspect it was (bleep) for tat. She got upset because of the script that was being used by Bernie callers, so this was a retaliatory hit. While my suspicion is that Bernie had no idea what script was being used by their callers (as evidenced by his response when he was first asked about it), and that Warren didn't properly interpret whatever Bernie said to her in private (intentionally or unintentionally), it is what it is. Bernie has been on the record for decades saying that a woman can and will become President one day.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:58 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
Hector the Pup wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
ribeye wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:

It'd be great if people (including Warren and Sanders) would put this event to bed and move on to issues that actually matter.


Yes, so let's ALL do just that.

Idk, having Dem centrists and progressives holding guns to one another's heads awaiting inevitable mutually assured destruction seems to be what entertains the citizenry.


Or it's just what we call a primary and this is what happens with every single one of them.

I look at people who complain about this stuff the same way I look at people who comment on how it gets dark so much later every year at daylight savings time. Either their memories are terribly short or this this the first time they have paid attention.


And there's less appetite for it given the Sword of Damocles that is Trump. I suspect half the party right now would prefer to turn back the clock 100 years and let the party bosses pick the nominee while drinking sherry.

I will say that I think Warren's shot (this story about "the conversation" was all her doing, IMO) was an especially low blow.


Because when male politicians play hardball, it's described as "normal" and "smart" and "strategic" but when a female politician plays hardball it's a "low blow." Just asking you to consider your own thought process. Was it also a "low blow" to have campaign staff suggest the other candidate is too elite through a scripted Q&A?


No, it was totally accurate based on demographics and polling data. Omar makes the inverse of the argument here all the time (Bernie's base are unreliable riff-raff [non-verbatim]), and I don't consider it "trashing". It's a valid question that should be discussed and considered on strategic grounds. Essentially which part of the electorate is it smarter to take for granted: the older, more educated and wealthy who usually a lock to vote no matter what, or the less so who will probably hold a grudge (worse case scenario: stay home; best case: not donate). That's what those volunteers were essentially arguing. To grow the party it's better to focus on the latter. That seems totally inside the bounds of what supporters should be allowed to say to move someone who's primarily concerned about beating Trump (most of the party) to their candidate.

Tossing a sexism grenade OTOH...


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:07 am    Post subject:

/I'm out. I have no interest in discussing this particular issue further. But when people say seemingly sexist things, I'm going to point it out so that maybe other people assess and learn about how we talk about male and female politicians and the different expectations and standards we hold them to. I'm doing this not to convince anyone in particular, I'm doing this because I saw this done to Hillary in 2016 literally hundreds of times. I would try to mention it and would get replies from a dozen people saying, "No no no, it's not sexism, it's just that people don't like Hillary." Well here we are again. #NotStayingQuietThisTime
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:36 am    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:

It'd be great if people (including Warren and Sanders) would put this event to bed and move on to issues that actually matter.


Yes, so let's ALL do just that.


Something I asked for long ago. Stop the infighting, stick to issues.
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