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kikanga
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:40 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
Hector the Pup wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
ribeye wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:

It'd be great if people (including Warren and Sanders) would put this event to bed and move on to issues that actually matter.


Yes, so let's ALL do just that.

Idk, having Dem centrists and progressives holding guns to one another's heads awaiting inevitable mutually assured destruction seems to be what entertains the citizenry.


Or it's just what we call a primary and this is what happens with every single one of them.

I look at people who complain about this stuff the same way I look at people who comment on how it gets dark so much later every year at daylight savings time. Either their memories are terribly short or this this the first time they have paid attention.


And there's less appetite for it given the Sword of Damocles that is Trump. I suspect half the party right now would prefer to turn back the clock 100 years and let the party bosses pick the nominee while drinking sherry.

I will say that I think Warren's shot (this story about "the conversation" was all her doing, IMO) was an especially low blow.


Because when male politicians play hardball, it's described as "normal" and "smart" and "strategic" but when a female politician plays hardball it's a "low blow." Just asking you to consider your own thought process. Was it also a "low blow" to have campaign staff suggest the other candidate is too elite through a scripted Q&A?


No, it was totally accurate based on demographics and polling data. Omar makes the inverse of the argument here all the time (Bernie's base are unreliable riff-raff [non-verbatim]), and I don't consider it "trashing". It's a valid question that should be discussed and considered on strategic grounds. Essentially which part of the electorate is it smarter to take for granted: the older, more educated and wealthy who usually a lock to vote no matter what, or the less so who will probably hold a grudge (worse case scenario: stay home; best case: not donate). That's what those volunteers were essentially arguing. To grow the party it's better to focus on the latter. That seems totally inside the bounds of what supporters should be allowed to say to move someone who's primarily concerned about beating Trump (most of the party) to their candidate.

Tossing a sexism grenade OTOH...


Tough to argue Bernie can unite a whole party when his supporters are (metaphorically) clamoring for the blood of the candidate who has the most in common with him policy wise.
This conflict hurts Bernie and Warren. The winners are CNN and moderate Democrats.
Its not just CL who is noticing how twice in 4 years Bernie's voters are attacking female candidates. Black female voters (one of our most vital voting blocks if not thee most vital) is noticing it too.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:45 am    Post subject:

I think Larry Coon posted something in the baseball thread about climate change as an illustration to another point. Climate change is real and produces extreme weather events. But can we definitely say that one particular weather event was caused by climate change? No.

We all agree there is sexism operating in this election. When I point out a specific example that could demonstrate underlying attitudes about male/female candidates, do I definitively know that person's attitude was influenced by gender stereotypes? No.

But it also can't be that EVERY example I point out is NEVER about sexism either.

"Sexism" is not an either/or black & white issue. We all hold old cultural beliefs that we thought were "true" that we must be open to reassessing. That takes self-reflection and being open to new information. We may think we are "progressive" and modern and want true equality for women and still have these internalized attitudes bubble to the surface and be reflected in the language we use without necessarily being aware of it.

And I've always made the point that this applies to women too. Women in our society hold sexist beliefs about other women. This is especially true on the Conservative/Evangelical/Rural side of our culture.

But it will never change unless it's identified and called out first.

Here's some informative reading:

Politico: 'It's so bad': How Warren and Klobuchar are navigating sexism

NYT: ‘A Woman, Just Not That Woman’: How Sexism Plays Out on the Trail

Why Sexist Coverage of Women in Politics Matters

The Cut: The Third Rail of Calling ‘Sexism’ Warren tried not to talk about it.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:50 am    Post subject:

Also the, "why did Warren come out with this info now and not X months ago argument" is eerily similar to the Republican response to when women came forward about Trump during the general election.
I'm noticing a pattern of Bernie supporters not acknowledging Bernie is human and he can make mistakes.
And this is coming from someone who has Bernie high on his list. It's just the very vocal overzealous sect of Bernie supporters make it tough to root for Bernie sometimes.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:10 am    Post subject:

The other thing is that whenever caught doing something (like attacking Warren), it’s always the same, Bernie probably didn’t know. His senior staff s putting out policy memos and then denying it and he’s just locked in a room working on his speech right?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:24 am    Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
Hector the Pup wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
ribeye wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:

It'd be great if people (including Warren and Sanders) would put this event to bed and move on to issues that actually matter.


Yes, so let's ALL do just that.

Idk, having Dem centrists and progressives holding guns to one another's heads awaiting inevitable mutually assured destruction seems to be what entertains the citizenry.


Or it's just what we call a primary and this is what happens with every single one of them.

I look at people who complain about this stuff the same way I look at people who comment on how it gets dark so much later every year at daylight savings time. Either their memories are terribly short or this this the first time they have paid attention.


And there's less appetite for it given the Sword of Damocles that is Trump. I suspect half the party right now would prefer to turn back the clock 100 years and let the party bosses pick the nominee while drinking sherry.

I will say that I think Warren's shot (this story about "the conversation" was all her doing, IMO) was an especially low blow.


Meh, I suspect it was (bleep) for tat. She got upset because of the script that was being used by Bernie callers, so this was a retaliatory hit. While my suspicion is that Bernie had no idea what script was being used by their callers (as evidenced by his response when he was first asked about it), and that Warren didn't properly interpret whatever Bernie said to her in private (intentionally or unintentionally), it is what it is. Bernie has been on the record for decades saying that a woman can and will become President one day.

I don't agree with it is what it is. It's a serious accusation. I vacillate (I've retyped this reply deleted, rewrote like it's a college application sheesh) so I'll keep it short. Anyway, even larger things going on (which makes them pretty large) in politics today.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:57 am    Post subject:

It was nice to see Donald Trump Jr. come to Bernie’s defense
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:03 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Also the, "why did Warren come out with this info now and not X months ago argument" is eerily similar to the Republican response to when women came forward about Trump during the general election.
I'm noticing a pattern of Bernie supporters not acknowledging Bernie is human and he can make mistakes.
And this is coming from someone who has Bernie high on his list. It's just the very vocal overzealous sect of Bernie supporters make it tough to root for Bernie sometimes.


A few things I've noticed interacting with Bernie's supporters on social media and where I live here in eastern Washington:

- Many of them just can't comprehend why anyone in their right mind would vote for Biden.
- They also say that they haven't actually met anyone that supports Biden. Of course, that could easily change if they hung around Biden's largest and most passionate base of support, African Americans. But they don't know many people like that.
- Connected to the above, since they don't personally know any Biden supporters, they think most of the polls showing Biden ahead are manipulated by the mainstream media (the most frequent thing I hear is that the pollsters only interview old people with landlines). And if there's a poll that looks good for Bernie (even if an outlier and using the same methodology as most other polls) and if he advertises that poll on his social media accounts, they take that poll as the Bible.
- At one local pro-Bernie meeting in eastern Washington last summer attended by a few dozen people (college professors, young political activists, and other random people), I remember one guy saying that Biden is basically Trump. 95% of the room nodded in approval. And I was sitting there thinking "what the (bleep) is this?" It was the last meeting I attended.


While there are many Bernie supporters that are reasonable progressives who vote on policy and believe that Bernie is fallible, those people are not the most visible, loudest supporters. Social media is dominated by the cultists and it is because of those people why I became alienated from the movement in the middle of the primary in 2016.

So when I interact with them, including at some of the aforementioned local meetings, the minute you criticize Bernie, you become their enemy and then they start doubting your progressive bonafides. It is a cult of personality.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:06 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
It was nice to see Donald Trump Jr. come to Bernie’s defense

A strike against Bernie.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:06 pm    Post subject:

Wilt wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Also the, "why did Warren come out with this info now and not X months ago argument" is eerily similar to the Republican response to when women came forward about Trump during the general election.
I'm noticing a pattern of Bernie supporters not acknowledging Bernie is human and he can make mistakes.
And this is coming from someone who has Bernie high on his list. It's just the very vocal overzealous sect of Bernie supporters make it tough to root for Bernie sometimes.


A few things I've noticed interacting with Bernie's supporters on social media and where I live here in eastern Washington:

- Many of them just can't comprehend why anyone in their right mind would vote for Biden.
- They also say that they haven't actually met anyone that supports Biden. Of course, that could easily change if they hung around Biden's largest and most passionate base of support, African Americans. But they don't know many people like that.
- Connected the above, since they don't personally know any Biden supporters, they think most of the polls showing Biden ahead are manipulated by the mainstream media (the most frequent thing I hear is that the pollsters only interview old people with landlines). And if there's a poll that looks good for Bernie (even if an outlier and using the same methodology as most other polls) and if he advertises that poll on his social media accounts, they take that poll as the Bible.
- At one local pro-Bernie meeting in eastern Washington last summer attended by a few dozen people (college professors, young political activists, and other random people), I remember one guy saying that Biden is basically Trump. 95% of the room nodded in approval. And I was sitting there thinking "what the (bleep) is this?" It was the last meeting I attended.


While there are many Bernie supporters that are reasonable progressives who vote on policy and believe that Bernie is fallible, those people are not the most visible, loudest supporters. Social media is dominated by the cultists and it is because of those people why I became alienated from the movement in the middle of the primary in 2016.

So when I interact with them, including at some of the aforementioned local meetings, the minute you criticize Bernie, you become their enemy and then they start doubting your progressive bonafides. It is a cult of personality.


Sounds like a problem of two party system. Some prob feel that Bernie/AOC is as different from Biden/Hillary as Biden/Hillary to GOP
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:09 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
It was nice to see Donald Trump Jr. come to Bernie’s defense

A strike against Bernie.


https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-guilt-by-association/
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:16 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
Hector the Pup wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
ribeye wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:

It'd be great if people (including Warren and Sanders) would put this event to bed and move on to issues that actually matter.


Yes, so let's ALL do just that.

Idk, having Dem centrists and progressives holding guns to one another's heads awaiting inevitable mutually assured destruction seems to be what entertains the citizenry.


Or it's just what we call a primary and this is what happens with every single one of them.

I look at people who complain about this stuff the same way I look at people who comment on how it gets dark so much later every year at daylight savings time. Either their memories are terribly short or this this the first time they have paid attention.


And there's less appetite for it given the Sword of Damocles that is Trump. I suspect half the party right now would prefer to turn back the clock 100 years and let the party bosses pick the nominee while drinking sherry.

I will say that I think Warren's shot (this story about "the conversation" was all her doing, IMO) was an especially low blow.


Because when male politicians play hardball, it's described as "normal" and "smart" and "strategic" but when a female politician plays hardball it's a "low blow." Just asking you to consider your own thought process. Was it also a "low blow" to have campaign staff suggest the other candidate is too elite through a scripted Q&A?


No, it was totally accurate based on demographics and polling data. Omar makes the inverse of the argument here all the time (Bernie's base are unreliable riff-raff [non-verbatim]), and I don't consider it "trashing". It's a valid question that should be discussed and considered on strategic grounds. Essentially which part of the electorate is it smarter to take for granted: the older, more educated and wealthy who usually are a lock to vote no matter what, or the less so who will probably hold a grudge (worse case scenario: stay home; best case: not donate)? That's what those volunteers were essentially arguing. To grow the party it's better to focus on the latter. That seems totally inside the bounds of what supporters should be allowed to say to move someone who's primarily concerned about beating Trump (most of the party) to their candidate.

Tossing a sexism grenade OTOH...


Tough to argue Bernie can unite a whole party when his supporters are (metaphorically) clamoring for the blood of the candidate who has the most in common with him policy wise.
This conflict hurts Bernie and Warren. The winners are CNN and moderate Democrats.
Its not just CL who is noticing how twice in 4 years Bernie's voters are attacking female candidates. Black female voters (one of our most vital voting blocks if not thee most vital) is noticing it too.


Bernie's supporters skew younger, and younger people tend to engage in dumber (bleep). There are positives and negatives to having so much enthusiasm. Personally I'd prefer to have more on my side rather than less.

Who's war chest would you prefer to have right now? Bernie's breaking new records in fundraising while Warren is seeing a decline. That's a positive of the enthusiasm advantage.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:24 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Wilt wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Also the, "why did Warren come out with this info now and not X months ago argument" is eerily similar to the Republican response to when women came forward about Trump during the general election.
I'm noticing a pattern of Bernie supporters not acknowledging Bernie is human and he can make mistakes.
And this is coming from someone who has Bernie high on his list. It's just the very vocal overzealous sect of Bernie supporters make it tough to root for Bernie sometimes.


A few things I've noticed interacting with Bernie's supporters on social media and where I live here in eastern Washington:

- Many of them just can't comprehend why anyone in their right mind would vote for Biden.
- They also say that they haven't actually met anyone that supports Biden. Of course, that could easily change if they hung around Biden's largest and most passionate base of support, African Americans. But they don't know many people like that.
- Connected the above, since they don't personally know any Biden supporters, they think most of the polls showing Biden ahead are manipulated by the mainstream media (the most frequent thing I hear is that the pollsters only interview old people with landlines). And if there's a poll that looks good for Bernie (even if an outlier and using the same methodology as most other polls) and if he advertises that poll on his social media accounts, they take that poll as the Bible.
- At one local pro-Bernie meeting in eastern Washington last summer attended by a few dozen people (college professors, young political activists, and other random people), I remember one guy saying that Biden is basically Trump. 95% of the room nodded in approval. And I was sitting there thinking "what the (bleep) is this?" It was the last meeting I attended.


While there are many Bernie supporters that are reasonable progressives who vote on policy and believe that Bernie is fallible, those people are not the most visible, loudest supporters. Social media is dominated by the cultists and it is because of those people why I became alienated from the movement in the middle of the primary in 2016.

So when I interact with them, including at some of the aforementioned local meetings, the minute you criticize Bernie, you become their enemy and then they start doubting your progressive bonafides. It is a cult of personality.


Sounds like a problem of two party system. Some prob feel that Bernie/AOC is as different from Biden/Hillary as Biden/Hillary to GOP


They would be quantifiably wrong. That’s the core of the lie that’s being sold precisely to wedge those two groups apart.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:25 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:


Sounds like a problem of two party system. Some prob feel that Bernie/AOC is as different from Biden/Hillary as Biden/Hillary to GOP


Well, if they think that, they're fools.

They are also free to make it a three party system, but that takes a lot of money and effort, in every state, every county, every municipality, 365 days per year, year after year. But they won't do that. There are, however, actual Democratic activists (some of which I know) that make that happen within the Democratic Party and make these Bernieists relevant in the first place. But it's much easier to say how the two party system is evil on the internets.

The persistence of a two party system also doesn't excuse the formation of the cult of personality around Bernie. You can criticize the two parties without buying into the notion that Bernie is infallible and without buying into wild conspiracy theories in which Bernie is always the victim and everybody else always has malicious intentions (sadly, that's what they share with Trumpists).
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:28 pm    Post subject:

The amount of money a candidate, or salesman, or televangelist raise is not necessarily directly related to the quality of the product. Trump is raking it in hand over fist too.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:55 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
The other thing is that whenever caught doing something (like attacking Warren), it’s always the same, Bernie probably didn’t know. His senior staff s putting out policy memos and then denying it and he’s just locked in a room working on his speech right?


To continue that thought . . . and whenever something happens in the Warren camp, it MUST be because Warren must have plotted it all on her own.

The double standard is obvious and telling.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:06 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
It was nice to see Donald Trump Jr. come to Bernie’s defense

A strike against Bernie.


https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-guilt-by-association/


Here's one place you and I agree. DTjr's comment doesn't reflect on Bernie.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:32 pm    Post subject:

Wilt wrote:
governator wrote:


Sounds like a problem of two party system. Some prob feel that Bernie/AOC is as different from Biden/Hillary as Biden/Hillary to GOP


Well, if they think that, they're fools.

They are also free to make it a three party system, but that takes a lot of money and effort, in every state, every county, every municipality, 365 days per year, year after year. But they won't do that. There are, however, actual Democratic activists (some of which I know) that make that happen within the Democratic Party and make these Bernieists relevant in the first place. But it's much easier to say how the two party system is evil on the internets.

The persistence of a two party system also doesn't excuse the formation of the cult of personality around Bernie. You can criticize the two parties without buying into the notion that Bernie is infallible and without buying into wild conspiracy theories in which Bernie is always the victim and everybody else always has malicious intentions (sadly, that's what they share with Trumpists).

Omar Little wrote:

They would be quantifiably wrong. That’s the core of the lie that’s being sold precisely to wedge those two groups apart.

Yeah, I'm just saying that's what they prob feel, I think AOC said the same thing. I do however think there is an effort to paint Bernie as sexist at this moment
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:34 pm    Post subject:

Unfortunately since women are becoming more focal the dynamics of criticism has changed. When men slander it's OK when women slander it's stay in your lane.

I've said before and was chastised but I'll say it again, We need more women in positions of power in government. I can't speak for any but myself. I was raised in a household were the men made the money and women handled it.

EDIT: There are currently 29 countries with women heads of state. I haven't checked but are any of those countries at war?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:53 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
It was nice to see Donald Trump Jr. come to Bernie’s defense

A strike against Bernie.


https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-guilt-by-association/


Here's one place you and I agree. DTjr's comment doesn't reflect on Bernie.


I don’t think so either. It does reflect on the opposition’s views and strategies regarding the dem primary though.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:56 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:

Bernie's supporters skew younger, and younger people tend to engage in dumber (bleep). There are positives and negatives to having so much enthusiasm. Personally I'd prefer to have more on my side rather than less.

Who's war chest would you prefer to have right now? Bernie's breaking new records in fundraising while Warren is seeing a decline. That's a positive of the enthusiasm advantage.

I trust the primary process because its whole goal is party unity. Whomever comes out of it the nominee has my full fledged support.
I value unity over a war chest. In 2016 Hillary had the war chest and Trump had the unity.
And yes I know that is an oversimplification. Hillary won more of the popular vote, there was voter suppression, unprecedented foreign interference, etc. etc.

But back to Bernie specifically. Unity is a long standing issue. He's been right about alot of things for DECADES now in the Senate. But he hasn't been able to turn his fight into something tangible. And part of it was timing. I do think now, with income and wealth inequality at it's worst (possibly ever). It's a ripe time for his message. But the vitriol his closest policy peer has received isn't encouraging.

In terms of this recent episode, I put the blame on his supporters much more than himself. It sucks that his message and the abhorrent behavior of some of his supporters are a package deal. I could do with the current level of the former and much less of the latter.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:02 pm    Post subject:

^
I think Bernie genuinely started as a protest candidate in 2016, not thinking he'd have a chance to beat Hillary. Then the dynamics changed, he became very popular, many of his supporters began a cult of personality, he lost control of much of it, and then he just went with it. I always found his supporters more objectionable than him, though he's far from perfect.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:10 pm    Post subject:

Wilt wrote:
^
I think Bernie genuinely started as a protest candidate in 2016, not thinking he'd have a chance to beat Hillary. Then the dynamics changed, he became very popular, many of his supporters began a cult of personality, he lost control of much of it, and then he just went with it. I always found his supporters more objectionable than him, though he's far from perfect.


Reminds me of separating the artist from the art (Michael Jackson, Bill Cosby, other entertainers). I admit it's easier said than done.

But there is probably a 40%ish chance he is our nominee (at this point). So its not as easy as choosing to throw the baby out with bath water (like some did with the entertainers I mentioned above).
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:22 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
greenfrog wrote:

Bernie's supporters skew younger, and younger people tend to engage in dumber (bleep). There are positives and negatives to having so much enthusiasm. Personally I'd prefer to have more on my side rather than less.

Who's war chest would you prefer to have right now? Bernie's breaking new records in fundraising while Warren is seeing a decline. That's a positive of the enthusiasm advantage.

I trust the primary process because its whole goal is party unity. Whomever comes out of it the nominee has my full fledged support.
I value unity over a war chest. In 2016 Hillary had the war chest and Trump had the unity.
And yes I know that is an oversimplification. Hillary won more of the popular vote, there was voter suppression, unprecedented foreign interference, etc. etc.

But back to Bernie specifically. Unity is a long standing issue. He's been right about alot of things for DECADES now in the Senate. But he hasn't been able to turn his fight into something tangible. And part of it was timing. I do think now, with income and wealth inequality at it's worst (possibly ever). It's a ripe time for his message. But the vitriol his closest policy peer has received isn't encouraging.

In terms of this recent episode, I put the blame on his supporters much more than himself. It sucks that his message and the abhorrent behavior of some of his supporters are a package deal. I could do with the current level of the former and much less of the latter.


I don't think Trump ever had the unity. He was battling Never Trumpers and nervous Republicans to the finish line. NOW I think he has the unity. They've gotten a taste, their stock portfolios are stronger than ever (the only thing rich Repubs care about), and they even find him entertaining. He is much stronger now than he was in 2016 (on money alone), which is why I fundamentally believe the strategy of running the most boring, inoffensive candidate you can find against him is a mistake. You need to go bold with a candidate who can inspire (yes, even if it's cultish), and most importantly can keep pace with him in terms of dollars. Does anyone honestly believe these Berners (Bernout Brigade, Bros, whatever pejorative you prefer) are going to lay down what little hard earned money they have for Biden? You could probably score it as a win just to get them to vote for him.
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governator
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:37 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
kikanga wrote:
greenfrog wrote:

Bernie's supporters skew younger, and younger people tend to engage in dumber (bleep). There are positives and negatives to having so much enthusiasm. Personally I'd prefer to have more on my side rather than less.

Who's war chest would you prefer to have right now? Bernie's breaking new records in fundraising while Warren is seeing a decline. That's a positive of the enthusiasm advantage.

I trust the primary process because its whole goal is party unity. Whomever comes out of it the nominee has my full fledged support.
I value unity over a war chest. In 2016 Hillary had the war chest and Trump had the unity.
And yes I know that is an oversimplification. Hillary won more of the popular vote, there was voter suppression, unprecedented foreign interference, etc. etc.

But back to Bernie specifically. Unity is a long standing issue. He's been right about alot of things for DECADES now in the Senate. But he hasn't been able to turn his fight into something tangible. And part of it was timing. I do think now, with income and wealth inequality at it's worst (possibly ever). It's a ripe time for his message. But the vitriol his closest policy peer has received isn't encouraging.

In terms of this recent episode, I put the blame on his supporters much more than himself. It sucks that his message and the abhorrent behavior of some of his supporters are a package deal. I could do with the current level of the former and much less of the latter.


I don't think Trump ever had the unity. He was battling Never Trumpers and nervous Republicans to the finish line. NOW I think he has the unity. They've gotten a taste, their stock portfolios are stronger than ever (the only thing rich Repubs care about), and they even find him entertaining. He is much stronger now than he was in 2016 (on money alone), which is why I fundamentally believe the strategy of running the most boring, inoffensive candidate you can find against him is a mistake. You need to go bold with a candidate who can inspire (yes, even if it's cultish), and most importantly can keep pace with him in terms of dollars. Does anyone honestly believe these Berners (Bernout Brigade, Bros, whatever pejorative you prefer) are going to lay down what little hard earned money they have for Biden? You could probably score it as a win just to get them to vote for him.


they better vote for Biden, none of this protest vote bullcrap
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:48 pm    Post subject:

^^They would be worse than people who actually voted for Trump

A protest vote in 2020 is Treason

Here's to hoping we are voting for Republican President Pelosi by then

This has been known forever.. Rick Perry was the Dud sent as proof the Quid Pro Quo already started.. Pence was supposed to go so it would give Ukraine international clout that the USVP showed up BUT NO.. It was some (bleep) who didn't even know what the DOE was but was put in charge of it.
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