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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:54 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/30/did-sanders-play-a-role-in-hillarys-2016-defeat/

Quote:
After Hillary won, Bernie negotiated with the Clinton campaign to make its platform more progressive. Unlike most primaries, where there are minor differences between opposing candidates of the same party, there was a wide gulf between the positions held by Hillary and Bernie. Like any prudent politician, Bernie wanted to make his support contingent on Hillary making her platform more progressive.

Bernie was successful in making Hillary amend her platform on two key issues. One was the expansion of her health care proposals, bringing them closer to his Medicare for All plan. The other was her pledge to make all public colleges and universities tuition-free for students from families with incomes of up to $85,000 initially, rising to $125,000 by 2021.


Trying to find an exact number all his campaign appearances for her, but I believe it was near 40. By contrast Hillary campaigned about 8 times for Obama. Going off memory here.

Almost certain that last figure is false and floating around left wing social media.


It was only meant as an illustration of how vigorous Sanders' support was compared to norms. I'm sure she did whatever Obama asked of her.


Hillary appeared 61 times for Obama.


Link? I'll gladly admit I was wrong, but that sounds extraordinary. I remember a Maddow segment raving about Sanders campaign schedule at the time.


Read the post above this...
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:55 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/12/30/did-sanders-play-a-role-in-hillarys-2016-defeat/

Quote:
After Hillary won, Bernie negotiated with the Clinton campaign to make its platform more progressive. Unlike most primaries, where there are minor differences between opposing candidates of the same party, there was a wide gulf between the positions held by Hillary and Bernie. Like any prudent politician, Bernie wanted to make his support contingent on Hillary making her platform more progressive.

Bernie was successful in making Hillary amend her platform on two key issues. One was the expansion of her health care proposals, bringing them closer to his Medicare for All plan. The other was her pledge to make all public colleges and universities tuition-free for students from families with incomes of up to $85,000 initially, rising to $125,000 by 2021.


Trying to find an exact number all his campaign appearances for her, but I believe it was near 40. By contrast Hillary campaigned about 8 times for Obama. Going off memory here.

Almost certain that last figure is false and floating around left wing social media.


It was only meant as an illustration of how vigorous Sanders' support was compared to norms. I'm sure she did whatever Obama asked of her.


Hillary appeared 61 times for Obama.


This was only meant as an illustration that when you make (bleep) up, it kind of kills the credibility of whatever it was you were trying to illustrate.


Didn't make it up. May have gotten some bad info.


Last edited by greenfrog on Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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governator
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:56 pm    Post subject:

I might have seen it differently regarding Hillary-Sanders 2016. This was when most people, prob including Hillary camp, Bernie camp and Trump camp thought she had an insurmountable lead (yes, despite Russia and GOP). Bernie was trying to push his agenda into Hillary's, not because he was trying to sabotage the democrat's chance in general election but because 'Hillary had it in the bag'

If you guys think Bernie was doing it to sabotage the dems in the gen election, guess I just have to disagree
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:17 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
ribeye wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
governator wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
governator wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:

You mean Bernie's plot to derail them Dems chances in the general election because he was butt hurt when he lost the Primaries?


Where did you this from? I thought Bernie campaigned for Hillary in 2016 once the primary was over


Quote:
Quote:
Four days after Barack Obama effectively clinched the Democratic presidential nomination in 2008, Hillary Clinton endorsed him. Four weeks after Clinton effectively clinched her party's 2016 nomination, Bernie Sanders still hadn't endorsed her.


WaPo Link

so both of you believe Bernie Sanders tried to derail democrat's chances in the general election in 2016 and the proof is that he took 4 weeks to endorse?


You seem to be forgetting the part where Bernie claimed the system was rigged against him and wouldn't support the Democratic nominee because of it.


Let's not forget how long it took to endorse Hillary and that he stayed negative long after he was toast--as I recall.


So all of you believe Bernie tried to derail democrats chances in general election of 2016?


The "derail" part was my pointedly exaggerated hyperbole in response to LC04's ridiculous hyperbole. But yes, Bernie clearly intended to hurt Hilary due to his primary loss.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:02 pm    Post subject:

If you think it's wrong for Sanders to do what he did in 2016 (however we differ in seeing the motive), do you think Hillary's negative attack on Bernie in 2020 should also be condemn just as rigorously?

governator wrote:
I might have seen it differently regarding Hillary-Sanders 2016. This was when most people, prob including Hillary camp, Bernie camp and Trump camp thought she had an insurmountable lead (yes, despite Russia and GOP). Bernie was trying to push his agenda into Hillary's, not because he was trying to sabotage the democrat's chance in general election but because 'Hillary had it in the bag'

If you guys think Bernie was doing it to sabotage the dems in the gen election, guess I just have to disagree


DaMuleRules wrote:

The "derail" part was my pointedly exaggerated hyperbole in response to LC04's ridiculous hyperbole. But yes, Bernie clearly intended to hurt Hilary due to his primary loss.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:03 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
I might have seen it differently regarding Hillary-Sanders 2016. This was when most people, prob including Hillary camp, Bernie camp and Trump camp thought she had an insurmountable lead (yes, despite Russia and GOP). Bernie was trying to push his agenda into Hillary's, not because he was trying to sabotage the democrat's chance in general election but because 'Hillary had it in the bag'

If you guys think Bernie was doing it to sabotage the dems in the gen election, guess I just have to disagree


Sensible. I agree with you.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:22 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
If you think it's wrong for Sanders to do what he did in 2016 (however we differ in seeing the motive), do you think Hillary's negative attack on Bernie in 2020 should also be condemn just as rigorously?


The "Nobody likes him" comment? Yes, and I did so.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:22 pm    Post subject:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/24/did-enough-bernie-sanders-supporters-vote-for-trump-to-cost-clinton-the-election/

Quote:
Another useful comparison is to 2008, when the question was whether Clinton supporters would vote for Barack Obama or John McCain (R-Ariz.) Based on data from the 2008 Cooperative Campaign Analysis Project, a YouGov survey that also interviewed respondents multiple times during the campaign, 24 percent of people who supported Clinton in the primary as of March 2008 then reported voting for McCain in the general election.


So fewer Sanders supporters voted for Trump (12% to 6% in their estimation) than Hillary supporters voted for McCain.


Last edited by greenfrog on Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:25 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
So fewer Sanders supporters voted for Trump (12% to 6% in their estimation) than Hillary supporters voted for McCain.


You do realize how dramatically different McCain and Trump were as candidates . . . right? I don't recall McCain having any "you can grab 'em by the (bleep)!" moments ir any of the other OMG! moments Trump did . . . I mean come on man.
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governator
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:27 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
governator wrote:
If you think it's wrong for Sanders to do what he did in 2016 (however we differ in seeing the motive), do you think Hillary's negative attack on Bernie in 2020 should also be condemn just as rigorously?


The "Nobody likes him" comment? Yes, and I did so.

yeah, I think you did too. Too bad in general media Sanders' comments are broadly painted as sexist or racially tone def while Hillary's comment is painted as her honest answers.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:27 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
So fewer Sanders supporters voted for Trump (12% to 6% in their estimation) than Hillary supporters voted for McCain.


You do realize how dramatically different McCain and Trump were as candidates . . . right? I don't recall McCain having any "you can grab 'em by the (bleep)!" moments ir any of the other OMG! moments Trump did . . . I mean come on man.


You also realize many of Sanders' supporters were never exactly reliable Democrats.

Also, Sarah Palin was easily the proto-Trump. One heart beat away, and they still voted for him.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:32 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
So fewer Sanders supporters voted for Trump (12% to 6% in their estimation) than Hillary supporters voted for McCain.


You do realize how dramatically different McCain and Trump were as candidates . . . right? I don't recall McCain having any "you can grab 'em by the (bleep)!" moments ir any of the other OMG! moments Trump did . . . I mean come on man.


You also realize many of Sanders' supporters were never exactly reliable Democrats.

Also, Sarah Palin was easily the proto-Trump. One heart beat away, and they still voted for him.


I've been saying that all along. But that doesn't change the above comparison between McCain and Trump.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:35 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
So fewer Sanders supporters voted for Trump (12% to 6% in their estimation) than Hillary supporters voted for McCain.


You do realize how dramatically different McCain and Trump were as candidates . . . right? I don't recall McCain having any "you can grab 'em by the (bleep)!" moments ir any of the other OMG! moments Trump did . . . I mean come on man.


You also realize many of Sanders' supporters were never exactly reliable Democrats.

Also, Sarah Palin was easily the proto-Trump. One heart beat away, and they still voted for him.


I've been saying that all along. But that doesn't change the above comparison between McCain and Trump.


Well, then it's very possible he actually brought in more new votes for her, even with that 12-6%.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:11 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/24/did-enough-bernie-sanders-supporters-vote-for-trump-to-cost-clinton-the-election/

Quote:
Another useful comparison is to 2008, when the question was whether Clinton supporters would vote for Barack Obama or John McCain (R-Ariz.) Based on data from the 2008 Cooperative Campaign Analysis Project, a YouGov survey that also interviewed respondents multiple times during the campaign, 24 percent of people who supported Clinton in the primary as of March 2008 then reported voting for McCain in the general election.


So fewer Sanders supporters voted for Trump (12% to 6% in their estimation) than Hillary supporters voted for McCain.

This is accurate, supported data.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:17 pm    Post subject:

Glenn Greenwald's harassment by the Bolsonaro government is an attack on the free press. Authoritarians and would-be authoritarians the world over know that to threaten and dismantle the fourth estate is the key to their autocratic power. (bleep) Bolsonaro. (bleep) Trump, too.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:03 pm    Post subject:

Democrats play softball and everybody wins.
Republicans have been playing hardball for a long time.
- Gerrymandering.
- Voter suppression.
- Fake news (literally).
- Whataboutism.
- Abortion
- Guns
- Religion

Playing to the lizard brain to a T. The ones who will decide truly will be the rust belt, where the election was lost by narrow margins (again, voter suppression).

All this is BS. Some people will get mad, but tbh, a TON of Republicans go, "we win, you suck", no matter if it's ethical or not. They just simply don't care, as long as it's "their guy".

The DNC needs to play hardball and it's always frustrating when they don't.
Not enough filibusters, not enough pushes for checks and balances.
Go door to f'in door to talk about the garbage tax cut for the wealthy (again) that is destroying us.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:04 pm    Post subject:

And the "I don't care because it's my guy" is showing in the Senate.
He will be acquitted of the charges that are clear as day and there will be little recourse.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:32 pm    Post subject:

tlim wrote:
And the "I don't care because it's my guy" is showing in the Senate.
He will be acquitted of the charges that are clear as day and there will be little recourse.

Impeach him again.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:09 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
tlim wrote:
And the "I don't care because it's my guy" is showing in the Senate.
He will be acquitted of the charges that are clear as day and there will be little recourse.

Impeach him again.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:28 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
So fewer Sanders supporters voted for Trump (12% to 6% in their estimation) than Hillary supporters voted for McCain.


You do realize how dramatically different McCain and Trump were as candidates . . . right? I don't recall McCain having any "you can grab 'em by the (bleep)!" moments ir any of the other OMG! moments Trump did . . . I mean come on man.


The other factor people are leaving out is that Bernie's and his surrogates' attacks on Clinton - "she's unqualified" and the message that she was a "corporate shill" "Shillary" were repeated online by many of his supporters long after he endorsed her -- because the damage was already done. Russian bots then amplified those attacks and used them in Facebook ads to dissuade other Democrats and Independents from voting for her (stay home because Clinton and Trump are just the same). "She can't be trusted" "she's a war hawk" etc. Even Trump repeated Bernie's criticisms of her in his stump speech. And now he's doing it again to Biden. "Oh gee, I didn't realize my surrogate wrote the negative OpEd about you Joe. I don't believe you want to cut entitlements. Honest."

Bernie is not a Democrat. He attacks the Democratic party all the time. Is it because he wants Trump to win? Of course not. But his first priority is himself, not the Democratic party. And one of the side effects of that is turning people off the Democratic candidate -- which could help Trump win again.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:32 pm    Post subject:

Schiff is amazing. On both nights, he concludes on a high note.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:07 pm    Post subject:

My nascent support for Sanders begins with his commitment to unpopular positions that I believe are morally right and will prove to have long-term benefits for the nation: 1) putting a stop to 99.99% of all deportations and 2) re-enfranchising every person in prison.

That's the kind of structural reform I can support and both measures could potentially be enacted via executive decision.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:16 pm    Post subject:

https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/1220445820505546755?s=20

Well thats nice i guess.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:21 pm    Post subject:

Palin wrote:
https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/1220445820505546755?s=20

Well thats nice i guess.

That's a mark against Bernie, sadly.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:26 pm    Post subject:

Palin wrote:
https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/1220445820505546755?s=20

Well thats nice i guess.


I hope you read the replies in that thread. A lot of people definitely do not see that endorsement as "nice" or a good thing -- at all.
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