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greenfrog
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 Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: |
OK. Note bold green. |
My bad. |
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Heartburn
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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The more you find out about the Bernie campaign (withholding medical records, campaign spox saying in 2016 that Russia didn't interfere, Bernie Bros. etc.), the more you start to feel like this election is a war that is being fought on multiple fronts.
You have to fight Trump and his GOP lackeys from the far right, Bernie and his bros from the far left, Bloomberg and his endless supply of money, and Putin from the east, who did what he could to make sure in 2016 that it would be a Trump v. Bernie matchup (which you have to conclude is a dream come true for someone who wants to do the USA harm).
America is in shambles. They keep thinking a savior will come to put things back on track. It's pretty deflating. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Heartburn wrote: | The more you find out about the Bernie campaign (withholding medical records, campaign spox saying in 2016 that Russia didn't interfere, Bernie Bros. etc.), the more you start to feel like this election is a war that is being fought on multiple fronts.
You have to fight Trump and his GOP lackeys from the far right, Bernie and his bros from the far left, Bloomberg and his endless supply of money, and Putin from the east, who did what he could to make sure in 2016 that it would be a Trump v. Bernie matchup (which you have to conclude is a dream come true for someone who wants to do the USA harm).
America is in shambles. They keep thinking a savior will come to put things back on track. It's pretty deflating. |
Where did she say this? From what I can find she agreed with Trump that Democrats were pushing the Russia hacking story because it was advantageous for them. That's far from saying it didn't happen. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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This is an election that calls for voters to put aside all the propaganda candidates are spewing and ask which candidate is best for the betterment of America.
This may sound comical and nonsensical but as I've repeatedly said I'd vote for Dudley Do-Right if he were running against Trump.
Remember "Obama Must Fail?" In my mind that must be a key phrase but injecting Trump in place of Obama.
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Heartburn
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | Heartburn wrote: | The more you find out about the Bernie campaign (withholding medical records, campaign spox saying in 2016 that Russia didn't interfere, Bernie Bros. etc.), the more you start to feel like this election is a war that is being fought on multiple fronts.
You have to fight Trump and his GOP lackeys from the far right, Bernie and his bros from the far left, Bloomberg and his endless supply of money, and Putin from the east, who did what he could to make sure in 2016 that it would be a Trump v. Bernie matchup (which you have to conclude is a dream come true for someone who wants to do the USA harm).
America is in shambles. They keep thinking a savior will come to put things back on track. It's pretty deflating. |
Where did she say this? From what I can find she agreed with Trump that Democrats were pushing the Russia hacking story because it was advantageous for them. That's far from saying it didn't happen. |
I don't want to engage with you because you exhaust me. Too much pedantic nonsense.
But on this particular point, I'll be more precise. Characterizing Russian interference as "pushing the Russia hacking story because it was advantageous" has the effect of downplaying its effect as merely being politically motivated. It was happening and it was a fact. Implying it's just politics is simply doing Russia's and Trump's bidding. Failing to see that is being obtuse, which is where I think Bernie falls in the Russian discussion.
...and she's unabashed Jill Stein voter. I think you should be able to infer that she doesn't have the interests of this country at the top of her list. Again, more "be right" instead of "get it right." |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | Heartburn wrote: | The more you find out about the Bernie campaign (withholding medical records, campaign spox saying in 2016 that Russia didn't interfere, Bernie Bros. etc.), the more you start to feel like this election is a war that is being fought on multiple fronts.
You have to fight Trump and his GOP lackeys from the far right, Bernie and his bros from the far left, Bloomberg and his endless supply of money, and Putin from the east, who did what he could to make sure in 2016 that it would be a Trump v. Bernie matchup (which you have to conclude is a dream come true for someone who wants to do the USA harm).
America is in shambles. They keep thinking a savior will come to put things back on track. It's pretty deflating. |
Where did she say this? From what I can find she agreed with Trump that Democrats were pushing the Russia hacking story because it was advantageous for them. That's far from saying it didn't happen. |
And this exemplifies one of the troubling things about the Bernie camp. The Russian manipulation is a problem for everyone except Trump. For the Bernie campaign to claim that the issue was simply the Democrats propagandizing it to gain an advantage is absurd and needlessly divisive.
And I will add that the language above is another problem. Bernie et al keep referring to the Democrats as if they are some rival party disassociated from his campaign to be President, yet Bernie claims he is a Democrat and is running as an alleged member of the party. It just proves their obvious disingenuousness, blatantly using the party to give him a chance in an election he never would have had if he ran as what he actually is - an independent - and then slamming the party constantly to try and curry favor as some sort of victim at their hands. It's insidious and the reason many have respect and trust for him.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
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Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | Seeing Bernie and Bloomberg polling top 2 nationally makes me really long for the days when Warren and Biden were the top 2. On both sides.
Bernie makes Warren seems like a realist. And Bloomberg makes Biden look like a progressive. |
The fact that she like likes to virtue signal with plan-itis I don't think makes her more realistic. Just like Sanders is playing to his populist base with simple plans and generalities to show what he stands for, she's doing the same to her audience of West Wing watchers dreaming of a presidency where the Ivy League educated rub elbows in the White House and hatch brilliant policies on the fly. |
So...close...to the mask falling.
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | And this exemplifies one of the troubling things about the Bernie camp. The Russian manipulation is a problem for everyone except Trump. For the Bernie campaign to claim that the issue was simply the Democrats propagandizing it to gain an advantage is absurd and needlessly divisive.
And I will add that the language above is another problem. Bernie et al keep referring to the Democrats as if they are some rival party disassociated from his campaign to be President, yet Bernie claims he is a Democrat and is running as an alleged member of the party. It just proves their obvious disingenuousness, blatantly using the party to give him a chance in an election he never would have had if he ran as what he actually is - an independent - and then slamming the party constantly to try and curry favor as some sort of victim at their hands. It's insidious and the reason many have respect and trust for him. |
They're not. This woman did before she was on the team. Bernie basically toes the line with the rest of the Democrats on Russia. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Heartburn wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | Heartburn wrote: | The more you find out about the Bernie campaign (withholding medical records, campaign spox saying in 2016 that Russia didn't interfere, Bernie Bros. etc.), the more you start to feel like this election is a war that is being fought on multiple fronts.
You have to fight Trump and his GOP lackeys from the far right, Bernie and his bros from the far left, Bloomberg and his endless supply of money, and Putin from the east, who did what he could to make sure in 2016 that it would be a Trump v. Bernie matchup (which you have to conclude is a dream come true for someone who wants to do the USA harm).
America is in shambles. They keep thinking a savior will come to put things back on track. It's pretty deflating. |
Where did she say this? From what I can find she agreed with Trump that Democrats were pushing the Russia hacking story because it was advantageous for them. That's far from saying it didn't happen. |
I don't want to engage with you because you exhaust me. Too much pedantic nonsense.
But on this particular point, I'll be more precise. Characterizing Russian interference as "pushing the Russia hacking story because it was advantageous" has the effect of downplaying its effect as merely being politically motivated. It was happening and it was a fact. Implying it's just politics is simply doing Russia's and Trump's bidding. Failing to see that is being obtuse, which is where I think Bernie falls in the Russian discussion.
...and she's unabashed Jill Stein voter. I think you should be able to infer that she doesn't have the interests of this country at the top of her list. Again, more "be right" instead of "get it right." |
This is another exaggeration. She explained she voted for her because she lived in New York which was a safe state and it didn't matter. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | And I will add that the language above is another problem. Bernie et al keep referring to the Democrats as if they are some rival party disassociated from his campaign to be President, yet Bernie claims he is a Democrat and is running as an alleged member of the party. It just proves their obvious disingenuousness, blatantly using the party to give him a chance in an election he never would have had if he ran as what he actually is - an independent - and then slamming the party constantly to try and curry favor as some sort of victim at their hands. It's insidious and the reason many have respect and trust for him. |
You keep returning to this. Would you actually prefer he run on a third party ticket and take basically 50% of the Democratic electorate with him?
Last edited by greenfrog on Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Wilt wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: |
Fair enough. I’ve never understood why a plurality would be more democratic than a runoff to get an actual majority. |
If Sanders gets the plurality, it won't be something like 25% of delegates, with everybody else somewhere between 10% and 20%. The 15% threshold prevents that. The latest poll out of California, for instance, suggests that Bernie will get most, if not all, the delegates there since all the moderates are under 15%.
If Bernie gets, say, 45% of the delegates, and everybody else is below 20%, he should be the nominee. It wouldn't be politically tenable to give the nomination to a candidate whose support was substantially smaller. |
I was using round numbers and using numbers of delegates, assuming multiple other candidates are getting delegates here and there. The best result is the winner, including Bernie, clinching prior to the convention. Ironically, the best solution if he doesn’t is for the superdelegates to take him over the top by supporting the leading vote getter (which was their original principal purpose), but that’s no longer available.
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | And I will add that the language above is another problem. Bernie et al keep referring to the Democrats as if they are some rival party disassociated from his campaign to be President, yet Bernie claims he is a Democrat and is running as an alleged member of the party. It just proves their obvious disingenuousness, blatantly using the party to give him a chance in an election he never would have had if he ran as what he actually is - an independent - and then slamming the party constantly to try and curry favor as some sort of victim at their hands. It's insidious and the reason many have respect and trust for him. |
You keep returning to this. Would you actually prefer he run on a third party ticket and take basically 50% of the Democratic electorate with him? |
How would that be, when he’s only getting 25-30% now? Your larger point of him running third party (where he’d probably put up Ron Paul numbers) is correct though, which is why he’s not doing it, because he can’t win and can only ensure the victory of the GOP. But Mule’s point is also valid that he has joined the party he always caucused with in order to not do either of those things, but he and his followers seem to think that he’s entitled to have everything changed to favor him.
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | Seeing Bernie and Bloomberg polling top 2 nationally makes me really long for the days when Warren and Biden were the top 2. On both sides.
Bernie makes Warren seems like a realist. And Bloomberg makes Biden look like a progressive. |
Who would you say is more progressive between Biden and Klobuchar? |
Ehh. That's like asking who has better post game. Trae Young or Steph Curry.
They both are left of Bloomberg. That's for sure. But tough to say who's left of the other. |
Well, I'd it's say it's more like the post games of DLo versus Kyrie, but that Biden's policy platform isn't progressive shows how much progress has been made in the party over the past 15-20 years.
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | And I will add that the language above is another problem. Bernie et al keep referring to the Democrats as if they are some rival party disassociated from his campaign to be President, yet Bernie claims he is a Democrat and is running as an alleged member of the party. It just proves their obvious disingenuousness, blatantly using the party to give him a chance in an election he never would have had if he ran as what he actually is - an independent - and then slamming the party constantly to try and curry favor as some sort of victim at their hands. It's insidious and the reason many have respect and trust for him. |
You keep returning to this. Would you actually prefer he run on a third party ticket and take basically 50% of the Democratic electorate with him? |
How would that be, when he’s only getting 25-30% now? Your larger point of him running third party (where he’d probably put up Ron Paul numbers) is correct though, which is why he’s not doing it, because he can’t win and can only ensure the victory of the GOP. But Mule’s point is also valid that he has joined the party he always caucused with in order to not do either of those things, but he and his followers seem to think that he’s entitled to have everything changed to favor him. |
Because it's a 7 person race. Boil it down to an either/or and he's basically taking half.
And other than having the voting public be the determinate factor I don't know what these demands are he's issuing that are so entitled or unfair. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | And I will add that the language above is another problem. Bernie et al keep referring to the Democrats as if they are some rival party disassociated from his campaign to be President, yet Bernie claims he is a Democrat and is running as an alleged member of the party. It just proves their obvious disingenuousness, blatantly using the party to give him a chance in an election he never would have had if he ran as what he actually is - an independent - and then slamming the party constantly to try and curry favor as some sort of victim at their hands. It's insidious and the reason many have respect and trust for him. |
You keep returning to this. Would you actually prefer he run on a third party ticket and take basically 50% of the Democratic electorate with him? |
You're missing the point entirely. Had he not glommed onto the Democrats in 2016 to exploit them to give him access and notoriety he would not have had as an independent, he would have just been another 3rd party candidate that would be off the radar in 2020 - he wouldn't be pulling 50% of anything (and he's pulling short of half of that now).
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | And I will add that the language above is another problem. Bernie et al keep referring to the Democrats as if they are some rival party disassociated from his campaign to be President, yet Bernie claims he is a Democrat and is running as an alleged member of the party. It just proves their obvious disingenuousness, blatantly using the party to give him a chance in an election he never would have had if he ran as what he actually is - an independent - and then slamming the party constantly to try and curry favor as some sort of victim at their hands. It's insidious and the reason many have respect and trust for him. |
You keep returning to this. Would you actually prefer he run on a third party ticket and take basically 50% of the Democratic electorate with him? |
How would that be, when he’s only getting 25-30% now? Your larger point of him running third party (where he’d probably put up Ron Paul numbers) is correct though, which is why he’s not doing it, because he can’t win and can only ensure the victory of the GOP. But Mule’s point is also valid that he has joined the party he always caucused with in order to not do either of those things, but he and his followers seem to think that he’s entitled to have everything changed to favor him. |
Because it's a 7 person race. Boil it down to an either/or and he's basically taking half.
And other than having the voting public be the determinate factor I don't know what these demands are he's issuing that are so entitled or unfair. |
That doesn't even remotely make sense. As a Democrat he is not pulling 50%, so as a declared Independent candidate, he wouldn't pulling half the Democrat voters over to vote third party.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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Heartburn
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | Heartburn wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | Heartburn wrote: | The more you find out about the Bernie campaign (withholding medical records, campaign spox saying in 2016 that Russia didn't interfere, Bernie Bros. etc.), the more you start to feel like this election is a war that is being fought on multiple fronts.
You have to fight Trump and his GOP lackeys from the far right, Bernie and his bros from the far left, Bloomberg and his endless supply of money, and Putin from the east, who did what he could to make sure in 2016 that it would be a Trump v. Bernie matchup (which you have to conclude is a dream come true for someone who wants to do the USA harm).
America is in shambles. They keep thinking a savior will come to put things back on track. It's pretty deflating. |
Where did she say this? From what I can find she agreed with Trump that Democrats were pushing the Russia hacking story because it was advantageous for them. That's far from saying it didn't happen. |
I don't want to engage with you because you exhaust me. Too much pedantic nonsense.
But on this particular point, I'll be more precise. Characterizing Russian interference as "pushing the Russia hacking story because it was advantageous" has the effect of downplaying its effect as merely being politically motivated. It was happening and it was a fact. Implying it's just politics is simply doing Russia's and Trump's bidding. Failing to see that is being obtuse, which is where I think Bernie falls in the Russian discussion.
...and she's unabashed Jill Stein voter. I think you should be able to infer that she doesn't have the interests of this country at the top of her list. Again, more "be right" instead of "get it right." |
This is another exaggeration. She explained she voted for her because she lived in New York which was a safe state and it didn't matter. |
That argument doesn't fly, no matter what state you're in. It amounts to a vote for Trump. Again, she chose to "be right" instead "getting it right." And now she's the mouthpiece of a leading campaign. What can we expect from her now? |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | And I will add that the language above is another problem. Bernie et al keep referring to the Democrats as if they are some rival party disassociated from his campaign to be President, yet Bernie claims he is a Democrat and is running as an alleged member of the party. It just proves their obvious disingenuousness, blatantly using the party to give him a chance in an election he never would have had if he ran as what he actually is - an independent - and then slamming the party constantly to try and curry favor as some sort of victim at their hands. It's insidious and the reason many have respect and trust for him. |
You keep returning to this. Would you actually prefer he run on a third party ticket and take basically 50% of the Democratic electorate with him? |
How would that be, when he’s only getting 25-30% now? Your larger point of him running third party (where he’d probably put up Ron Paul numbers) is correct though, which is why he’s not doing it, because he can’t win and can only ensure the victory of the GOP. But Mule’s point is also valid that he has joined the party he always caucused with in order to not do either of those things, but he and his followers seem to think that he’s entitled to have everything changed to favor him. |
Because it's a 7 person race. Boil it down to an either/or and he's basically taking half.
And other than having the voting public be the determinate factor I don't know what these demands are he's issuing that are so entitled or unfair. |
That doesn't even remotely make sense. As a Democrat he is not pulling 50%, so as a declared Independent candidate, he wouldn't pulling half the Democrat voters over to vote third party. |
You think if Hillary was in this current field, who clearly was a front runner, she would be pulling anything close to 50%? FYI, there were some polls that included her and she barely broke 10%.
And maybe you're unaware, but according to Morning Consult, Bernie is the most popular senator in the country. He certainly would poll higher than Ron Paul. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | And I will add that the language above is another problem. Bernie et al keep referring to the Democrats as if they are some rival party disassociated from his campaign to be President, yet Bernie claims he is a Democrat and is running as an alleged member of the party. It just proves their obvious disingenuousness, blatantly using the party to give him a chance in an election he never would have had if he ran as what he actually is - an independent - and then slamming the party constantly to try and curry favor as some sort of victim at their hands. It's insidious and the reason many have respect and trust for him. |
You keep returning to this. Would you actually prefer he run on a third party ticket and take basically 50% of the Democratic electorate with him? |
You're missing the point entirely. Had he not glommed onto the Democrats in 2016 to exploit them to give him access and notoriety he would not have had as an independent, he would have just been another 3rd party candidate that would be off the radar in 2020 - he wouldn't be pulling 50% of anything (and he's pulling short of half of that now). |
He actually encouraged Warren to run first because he thought there should be a progressive option. Did it elevate his profile? Sure.
What it seems like you're saying is that if you're a progressive you don't have the right to run as a Democrat. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | And I will add that the language above is another problem. Bernie et al keep referring to the Democrats as if they are some rival party disassociated from his campaign to be President, yet Bernie claims he is a Democrat and is running as an alleged member of the party. It just proves their obvious disingenuousness, blatantly using the party to give him a chance in an election he never would have had if he ran as what he actually is - an independent - and then slamming the party constantly to try and curry favor as some sort of victim at their hands. It's insidious and the reason many have respect and trust for him. |
You keep returning to this. Would you actually prefer he run on a third party ticket and take basically 50% of the Democratic electorate with him? |
You're missing the point entirely. Had he not glommed onto the Democrats in 2016 to exploit them to give him access and notoriety he would not have had as an independent, he would have just been another 3rd party candidate that would be off the radar in 2020 - he wouldn't be pulling 50% of anything (and he's pulling short of half of that now). |
He actually encouraged Warren to run first because he thought there should be a progressive option. Did it elevate his profile? Sure.
What it seems like you're saying is that if you're a progressive you don't have the right to run as a Democrat. |
That's not what he's saying and you know it. He's not even hinting at it. He's saying quite clearly you can't be unable to mount a separate campaign and win, then decide therefore the way to win is to join the party, and then act like the party needs to bend over backward to accommodate you and change its rules and structure and membership's views to allow you to take it over.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Heartburn wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | Heartburn wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | Heartburn wrote: | The more you find out about the Bernie campaign (withholding medical records, campaign spox saying in 2016 that Russia didn't interfere, Bernie Bros. etc.), the more you start to feel like this election is a war that is being fought on multiple fronts.
You have to fight Trump and his GOP lackeys from the far right, Bernie and his bros from the far left, Bloomberg and his endless supply of money, and Putin from the east, who did what he could to make sure in 2016 that it would be a Trump v. Bernie matchup (which you have to conclude is a dream come true for someone who wants to do the USA harm).
America is in shambles. They keep thinking a savior will come to put things back on track. It's pretty deflating. |
Where did she say this? From what I can find she agreed with Trump that Democrats were pushing the Russia hacking story because it was advantageous for them. That's far from saying it didn't happen. |
I don't want to engage with you because you exhaust me. Too much pedantic nonsense.
But on this particular point, I'll be more precise. Characterizing Russian interference as "pushing the Russia hacking story because it was advantageous" has the effect of downplaying its effect as merely being politically motivated. It was happening and it was a fact. Implying it's just politics is simply doing Russia's and Trump's bidding. Failing to see that is being obtuse, which is where I think Bernie falls in the Russian discussion.
...and she's unabashed Jill Stein voter. I think you should be able to infer that she doesn't have the interests of this country at the top of her list. Again, more "be right" instead of "get it right." |
This is another exaggeration. She explained she voted for her because she lived in New York which was a safe state and it didn't matter. |
That argument doesn't fly, no matter what state you're in. It amounts to a vote for Trump. Again, she chose to "be right" instead "getting it right." And now she's the mouthpiece of a leading campaign. What can we expect from her now? |
It also served to motivate other people (as was her job as a spokesperson/surrogate) to do so, often in "unsafe" states, like Michigan, and Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin.
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | And I will add that the language above is another problem. Bernie et al keep referring to the Democrats as if they are some rival party disassociated from his campaign to be President, yet Bernie claims he is a Democrat and is running as an alleged member of the party. It just proves their obvious disingenuousness, blatantly using the party to give him a chance in an election he never would have had if he ran as what he actually is - an independent - and then slamming the party constantly to try and curry favor as some sort of victim at their hands. It's insidious and the reason many have respect and trust for him. |
You keep returning to this. Would you actually prefer he run on a third party ticket and take basically 50% of the Democratic electorate with him? |
How would that be, when he’s only getting 25-30% now? Your larger point of him running third party (where he’d probably put up Ron Paul numbers) is correct though, which is why he’s not doing it, because he can’t win and can only ensure the victory of the GOP. But Mule’s point is also valid that he has joined the party he always caucused with in order to not do either of those things, but he and his followers seem to think that he’s entitled to have everything changed to favor him. |
Because it's a 7 person race. Boil it down to an either/or and he's basically taking half.
And other than having the voting public be the determinate factor I don't know what these demands are he's issuing that are so entitled or unfair. |
Sure, but boil it down to a general race where voters know that splitting the vote gives Trump the win and he gets considerably less than half the Dems.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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Sucks that Dems value integrity and decency. Bernie bros probably aren't any worse than Trump supporters in the GOP 2016 primary. I worry if more moderate Dems would support and ride the wave of the far left to the oval office the same way moderate Republicans did with the far right in 2016.
But Trump is bad enough, I think we can unite and turnout enough to get him out of there. Not complaining about the infighting though, that's what primaries are for.
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | And I will add that the language above is another problem. Bernie et al keep referring to the Democrats as if they are some rival party disassociated from his campaign to be President, yet Bernie claims he is a Democrat and is running as an alleged member of the party. It just proves their obvious disingenuousness, blatantly using the party to give him a chance in an election he never would have had if he ran as what he actually is - an independent - and then slamming the party constantly to try and curry favor as some sort of victim at their hands. It's insidious and the reason many have respect and trust for him. |
You keep returning to this. Would you actually prefer he run on a third party ticket and take basically 50% of the Democratic electorate with him? |
You're missing the point entirely. Had he not glommed onto the Democrats in 2016 to exploit them to give him access and notoriety he would not have had as an independent, he would have just been another 3rd party candidate that would be off the radar in 2020 - he wouldn't be pulling 50% of anything (and he's pulling short of half of that now). |
He actually encouraged Warren to run first because he thought there should be a progressive option. Did it elevate his profile? Sure.
What it seems like you're saying is that if you're a progressive you don't have the right to run as a Democrat. |
That's not what he's saying and you know it. He's not even hinting at it. He's saying quite clearly you can't be unable to mount a separate campaign and win, then decide therefore the way to win is to join the party, and then act like the party needs to bend over backward to accommodate you and change its rules and structure and membership's views to allow you to take it over. |
No, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't something as shallow as having an "I" in front in your name in off years rather than a "D". That's about the only substantive difference between Warren and Bernie domestically. Yet one he likes, the other he seems to despise. It still doesn't quite make sense to me. Especially since we both agree running third party would have been counter productive for everyone.. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | And I will add that the language above is another problem. Bernie et al keep referring to the Democrats as if they are some rival party disassociated from his campaign to be President, yet Bernie claims he is a Democrat and is running as an alleged member of the party. It just proves their obvious disingenuousness, blatantly using the party to give him a chance in an election he never would have had if he ran as what he actually is - an independent - and then slamming the party constantly to try and curry favor as some sort of victim at their hands. It's insidious and the reason many have respect and trust for him. |
You keep returning to this. Would you actually prefer he run on a third party ticket and take basically 50% of the Democratic electorate with him? |
You're missing the point entirely. Had he not glommed onto the Democrats in 2016 to exploit them to give him access and notoriety he would not have had as an independent, he would have just been another 3rd party candidate that would be off the radar in 2020 - he wouldn't be pulling 50% of anything (and he's pulling short of half of that now). |
He actually encouraged Warren to run first because he thought there should be a progressive option. Did it elevate his profile? Sure.
What it seems like you're saying is that if you're a progressive you don't have the right to run as a Democrat. |
That's not what he's saying and you know it. He's not even hinting at it. He's saying quite clearly you can't be unable to mount a separate campaign and win, then decide therefore the way to win is to join the party, and then act like the party needs to bend over backward to accommodate you and change its rules and structure and membership's views to allow you to take it over. |
No, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't something as shallow as having an "I" in front in your name in off years rather than a "D". That's about the only substantive difference between Warren and Bernie domestically. Yet one he likes, the other he seems to despise. It still doesn't quite make sense to me. Especially since we both agree running third party would have been counter productive for everyone.. |
Again, that has nothing to do with what I said about what you said, which was a complete mischaracterization of what Mule said.
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