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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90299 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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kikanga wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | kikanga wrote: | I don't think we should give Russia the power to both uplift Republican candidates AND destroy Democrat candidates. |
Right, we should give them the candidate they want to show them we aren't afraid of them. |
No we shouldn't weigh their opinion at all. I'm just trying to imagine if they supported my preferred candidate and acting accordingly.
Feel like people are working backwards from not wanting him to be the nominee in the first place. I don't want him either. But what I don't want more is seeing the (bleep) that is our party rejecting the possible leader in electoral votes. People think his supporters stayed home in 2016. It would be twice as bad. |
No. We don't want him BECAUSE of the issues you think we are using to backfill. And we enjoy the bargain his hostage taking voters are trying to leverage us with: let him win the nomination and lose the general (and likely the senate, and a good chance the house), or don't let him win and we give you Trump (again). It's like, "shoot yourself in the face or we will" _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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ChefLinda Moderator
Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 24113 Location: Boston
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | ChefLinda wrote: | If as Democrats we say it's not "okay" for Russia to help Trump, then we can't turn around and pretend it's "okay" if they are helping a Democratic nominee. |
But there's no way for the Sanders campaign to stop Russian interference. Trump openly and surreptitiously petitioned Russia for election interference in 2016 (not to mention what he's doing now). |
::sigh::
Okay, here's what Bernie could have differently this time:
Made it known to the public when he found out instead of hiding it for a month.
Not blame the press when it comes out.
Have his surrogates admit the truth instead of calling it fake news.
How's that for a start? Don't act like Trump. How hard is that? Is that too much to ask of our candidate? |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90299 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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ChefLinda wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | ChefLinda wrote: | If as Democrats we say it's not "okay" for Russia to help Trump, then we can't turn around and pretend it's "okay" if they are helping a Democratic nominee. |
But there's no way for the Sanders campaign to stop Russian interference. Trump openly and surreptitiously petitioned Russia for election interference in 2016 (not to mention what he's doing now). |
::sigh::
Okay, here's what Bernie could have differently this time:
Made it known to the public when he found out instead of hiding it for a month.
Not blame the press when it comes out.
Have his surrogates admit the truth instead of calling it fake news.
How's that for a start? |
That seems like you might be a corporatist trying to rob him. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29150 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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Omar Little wrote: | kikanga wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | kikanga wrote: | I don't think we should give Russia the power to both uplift Republican candidates AND destroy Democrat candidates. |
Right, we should give them the candidate they want to show them we aren't afraid of them. |
No we shouldn't weigh their opinion at all. I'm just trying to imagine if they supported my preferred candidate and acting accordingly.
Feel like people are working backwards from not wanting him to be the nominee in the first place. I don't want him either. But what I don't want more is seeing the (bleep) that is our party rejecting the possible leader in electoral votes. People think his supporters stayed home in 2016. It would be twice as bad. |
No. We don't want him BECAUSE of the issues you think we are using to backfill. And we enjoy the bargain his hostage taking voters are trying to leverage us with: let him win the nomination and lose the general (and likely the senate, and a good chance the house), or don't let him win and we give you Trump (again). It's like, "shoot yourself in the face or we will" |
That's an apt description of his supporters hardheadedness.
Losing two branches of government completely by choosing him as the nominee is speculation. I guess you could say his voters staying home if he doesn't get the nomination is speculation as well though. It's just a little more founded since of what happened in 2016. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Last edited by kikanga on Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ChefLinda Moderator
Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 24113 Location: Boston
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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LOL. |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90299 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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kikanga wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | kikanga wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | kikanga wrote: | I don't think we should give Russia the power to both uplift Republican candidates AND destroy Democrat candidates. |
Right, we should give them the candidate they want to show them we aren't afraid of them. |
No we shouldn't weigh their opinion at all. I'm just trying to imagine if they supported my preferred candidate and acting accordingly.
Feel like people are working backwards from not wanting him to be the nominee in the first place. I don't want him either. But what I don't want more is seeing the (bleep) that is our party rejecting the possible leader in electoral votes. People think his supporters stayed home in 2016. It would be twice as bad. |
No. We don't want him BECAUSE of the issues you think we are using to backfill. And we enjoy the bargain his hostage taking voters are trying to leverage us with: let him win the nomination and lose the general (and likely the senate, and a good chance the house), or don't let him win and we give you Trump (again). It's like, "shoot yourself in the face or we will" |
That's an apt description of his supporters hardheadedness.
Losing two branches of government completely by choosing him as the nominee is speculation. |
Sure. EVERYTHING about selecting a candidate is speculative. But there's a lot of strong evidence about those Senate and House seats. It could work out, but it is overwhelmingly more dangerous and electorally difficult, which gets us back to why Trump, the GOP, and the Russians are working so hard to make him the nominee, and if not, wound the actual nominee with his voters.
Sometimes one of Fidel's cigars is just a cigar. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29150 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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Omar Little wrote: | kikanga wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | kikanga wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | kikanga wrote: | I don't think we should give Russia the power to both uplift Republican candidates AND destroy Democrat candidates. |
Right, we should give them the candidate they want to show them we aren't afraid of them. |
No we shouldn't weigh their opinion at all. I'm just trying to imagine if they supported my preferred candidate and acting accordingly.
Feel like people are working backwards from not wanting him to be the nominee in the first place. I don't want him either. But what I don't want more is seeing the (bleep) that is our party rejecting the possible leader in electoral votes. People think his supporters stayed home in 2016. It would be twice as bad. |
No. We don't want him BECAUSE of the issues you think we are using to backfill. And we enjoy the bargain his hostage taking voters are trying to leverage us with: let him win the nomination and lose the general (and likely the senate, and a good chance the house), or don't let him win and we give you Trump (again). It's like, "shoot yourself in the face or we will" |
That's an apt description of his supporters hardheadedness.
Losing two branches of government completely by choosing him as the nominee is speculation. |
Sure. EVERYTHING about selecting a candidate is speculative. But there's a lot of strong evidence about those Senate and House seats. It could work out, but it is overwhelmingly more dangerous and electorally difficult, which gets us back to why Trump, the GOP, and the Russians are working so hard to make him the nominee, and if not, wound the actual nominee with his voters.
Sometimes one of Fidel's cigars is just a cigar. |
Looking at 2016. When he wasn't even the leader in the primaries. And seeing how his voters sat out. I don't know how anybody can be confident in the bolded. I admit it's a choice between two bad options though. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Last edited by kikanga on Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29150 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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I mean the guy has the support of over half of Dems below age 45. And conservatively speaking 20-30% of his voters won't vote for the nominee if he doesn't get the nomination. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90299 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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kikanga wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | kikanga wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | kikanga wrote: | Omar Little wrote: | kikanga wrote: | I don't think we should give Russia the power to both uplift Republican candidates AND destroy Democrat candidates. |
Right, we should give them the candidate they want to show them we aren't afraid of them. |
No we shouldn't weigh their opinion at all. I'm just trying to imagine if they supported my preferred candidate and acting accordingly.
Feel like people are working backwards from not wanting him to be the nominee in the first place. I don't want him either. But what I don't want more is seeing the (bleep) that is our party rejecting the possible leader in electoral votes. People think his supporters stayed home in 2016. It would be twice as bad. |
No. We don't want him BECAUSE of the issues you think we are using to backfill. And we enjoy the bargain his hostage taking voters are trying to leverage us with: let him win the nomination and lose the general (and likely the senate, and a good chance the house), or don't let him win and we give you Trump (again). It's like, "shoot yourself in the face or we will" |
That's an apt description of his supporters hardheadedness.
Losing two branches of government completely by choosing him as the nominee is speculation. |
Sure. EVERYTHING about selecting a candidate is speculative. But there's a lot of strong evidence about those Senate and House seats. It could work out, but it is overwhelmingly more dangerous and electorally difficult, which gets us back to why Trump, the GOP, and the Russians are working so hard to make him the nominee, and if not, wound the actual nominee with his voters.
Sometimes one of Fidel's cigars is just a cigar. |
Looking at 2016. When he wasn't even the leader in the primaries. And seeing how his voters sat out. I don't know how anybody can be confident in the bolded. I admit it's a choice between to bad options though. |
Because he likely can't play in many of the battleground states. So he's starting at a disadvantage. His base is Blue state voters. And he isn't going to make purple and red district/state dems happy at the top of the ticket as they try to convince the voters who elected them (in the house) on the basis of the opposite of m4A, and red state Dems going up against vulnerable GOP senators have to walk the same line. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90299 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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If Sanders had the best lane to pull the party to the finish line he wouldn't be getting this kind of pushback from many of us who are not particularly scared of, worried by, or even against many or most of his policies. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29150 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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Omar Little wrote: | Because he likely can't play in many of the battleground states. So he's starting at a disadvantage. His base is Blue state voters. And he isn't going to make purple and red district/state dems happy at the top of the ticket as they try to convince the voters who elected them (in the house) on the basis of the opposite of m4A, and red state Dems going up against vulnerable GOP senators have to walk the same line. |
Two bad options. All we can do is wait for the primary to play out and see what happens. I think we both clearly understand each other's thoughts on it.
Which swing/battleground states are you speaking about. Because I may not have seen the info you're referencing. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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ChefLinda Moderator
Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 24113 Location: Boston
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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At this point I'm going to vote for Warren in my home state primary, but for everywhere else I'm inwardly rooting for Biden over Bernie -- because I think he has the best shot in the swing & purple states to take votes away from Trump. Sadly those states are still too patriarchal to enthusiastically accept either a woman or a "socialist."
Last edited by ChefLinda on Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29150 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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ChefLinda wrote: | At this point I'm going to vote for Warren in my home state primary, but for everywhere else I'm inwardly rooting for Biden -- because I think he has the best shot in the swing & purple states to take votes away from Trump. Sadly those states are still too patriarchal to enthusiastically accept either a woman or a "socialist." |
Bloomberg has helped me appreciate Biden, Pete, and Amy. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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kikanga wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Look at me defending Bernie. I don't like this one bit. |
On second thought. Bernie is a Russian asset.
And the only answer is he endorses Warren and drops out. She'll unify the party and defeat Trump!!! #Warren2020 |
Da, comrade!
I mean, fellow American friend. _________________ Under New Management |
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governator Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 24995
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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There is a difference between active seeking of Russian interference vs passively benefiting from Russian interference. Either way Bernie himself and all his campaign official surrogates has to denounce it the second they find out. There is no defending this, Bernie needs to speak the f up |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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ChefLinda wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | ChefLinda wrote: | If as Democrats we say it's not "okay" for Russia to help Trump, then we can't turn around and pretend it's "okay" if they are helping a Democratic nominee. |
But there's no way for the Sanders campaign to stop Russian interference. Trump openly and surreptitiously petitioned Russia for election interference in 2016 (not to mention what he's doing now). |
::sigh::
Okay, here's what Bernie could have differently this time:
Made it known to the public when he found out instead of hiding it for a month.
Not blame the press when it comes out.
Have his surrogates admit the truth instead of calling it fake news.
How's that for a start? Don't act like Trump. How hard is that? Is that too much to ask of our candidate? |
Well, I had only read his publicly released statement on the matter and found it sufficient.
Then I read this:
Quote: | Abby D. Phillip
@abbydphillip
Sanders tells reporters he learned about Russian interference in his campaign about a month ago.
But asked why it came out now, Sanders points to the fact that the NV caucuses are a day away. And adds sarcastically, "Washington Post? Good friends." |
That is Trumpian. Mea culpa.
I don't know that any of this is disqualifying as of yet. _________________ Under New Management |
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ChefLinda Moderator
Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 24113 Location: Boston
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | ChefLinda wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | ChefLinda wrote: | If as Democrats we say it's not "okay" for Russia to help Trump, then we can't turn around and pretend it's "okay" if they are helping a Democratic nominee. |
But there's no way for the Sanders campaign to stop Russian interference. Trump openly and surreptitiously petitioned Russia for election interference in 2016 (not to mention what he's doing now). |
::sigh::
Okay, here's what Bernie could have differently this time:
Made it known to the public when he found out instead of hiding it for a month.
Not blame the press when it comes out.
Have his surrogates admit the truth instead of calling it fake news.
How's that for a start? Don't act like Trump. How hard is that? Is that too much to ask of our candidate? |
Well, I had only read his publicly released statement on the matter and found it sufficient.
Then I read this:
Quote: | Abby D. Phillip
@abbydphillip
Sanders tells reporters he learned about Russian interference in his campaign about a month ago.
But asked why it came out now, Sanders points to the fact that the NV caucuses are a day away. And adds sarcastically, "Washington Post? Good friends." |
That is Trumpian. Mea culpa.
I don't know that any of this is disqualifying as of yet. |
I posted the link to the video of him saying this on the previous page. |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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ChefLinda wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | ChefLinda wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | ChefLinda wrote: | If as Democrats we say it's not "okay" for Russia to help Trump, then we can't turn around and pretend it's "okay" if they are helping a Democratic nominee. |
But there's no way for the Sanders campaign to stop Russian interference. Trump openly and surreptitiously petitioned Russia for election interference in 2016 (not to mention what he's doing now). |
::sigh::
Okay, here's what Bernie could have differently this time:
Made it known to the public when he found out instead of hiding it for a month.
Not blame the press when it comes out.
Have his surrogates admit the truth instead of calling it fake news.
How's that for a start? Don't act like Trump. How hard is that? Is that too much to ask of our candidate? |
Well, I had only read his publicly released statement on the matter and found it sufficient.
Then I read this:
Quote: | Abby D. Phillip
@abbydphillip
Sanders tells reporters he learned about Russian interference in his campaign about a month ago.
But asked why it came out now, Sanders points to the fact that the NV caucuses are a day away. And adds sarcastically, "Washington Post? Good friends." |
That is Trumpian. Mea culpa.
I don't know that any of this is disqualifying as of yet. |
I posted the link to the video of him saying this on the previous page. |
I didn't see the posted link at the time I responded to this post originally. Mea culpa. _________________ Under New Management |
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ChefLinda Moderator
Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 24113 Location: Boston
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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No problemo. |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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My amends:
Bernie supporters...........Trump supporters
............................. ..........................
**Coming up with paranoid fantasies about how Jeff Bezos is out to get their guy via WaPo** _________________ Under New Management |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29150 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | My amends:
Bernie supporters...........Trump supporters
............................. ..........................
**Coming up with paranoid fantasies about how Jeff Bezos is out to get their guy via WaPo** |
The parallels are abundant.
Large primary field. Most extreme candidate grabs a fiercely loyal voter coalition furthest from the center. Eventually holds the rest of the party hostage. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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Neoliberal post of the day: unlike the misinformation AOC tweeted earlier today, natural gas derived from fracking is a transitional energy source and will be essential in rapidly scaling up production of renewable energy sources in order to reduce fracking and combat climate change in the future.
Also, nuclear energy is good. _________________ Under New Management |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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kikanga wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | My amends:
Bernie supporters...........Trump supporters
............................. ..........................
**Coming up with paranoid fantasies about how Jeff Bezos is out to get their guy via WaPo** |
The parallels are abundant.
Large primary field. Most extreme candidate grabs a fiercely loyal voter coalition furthest from the center. Eventually holds the rest of the party hostage. |
There are certain distinct points of overlap where you'd think progressives would pause, step back, and maybe reassess, but no - Trump's supporters are right because their grievances confirm the priors of Bernie Sanders' supporters' grievances. _________________ Under New Management |
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C M B Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Nov 2006 Posts: 19853 Location: Prarie & Manchester, high above the western sideline
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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