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ElginBaylor
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:29 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
ElginBaylor wrote:
How many Republicans were appalled by Trump during the run up to the 2016 elections, who have now fallen in line and turn a blind eye to the most disastrous presidency in history? Seemed like no one took Trump seriously when he started his campaign. Now everything the (bleep) grabber does that is illegal and just plain foolish is excused as the deep state trying to overturn the election.

If Bernie is the candidate, the Democrats will fall in line just the Republicans did for Trump.


Maybe but $/tax increases is the most powerful or the hardest agenda Bernie gotta sell to middle/middle upper/upper income Democrats, trump was and is just a bumbling baffoon but he gets them a perceived ‘tax cut’

But what sounds crazier? A big beautiful wall that Mexico will pay for, or healthcare as a right for everyone. I think it will all be about the approach and how to effectively communicate the benefits to everyone (but the 1%) of Bernie's social plans. I'm pretty much middle middle class but I don't mind paying more in taxes as long as the increase in my paycheck offsets those tax increases and I feel good about where my tax dollars are being spent.
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Surfitall
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:29 am    Post subject:

22 studies agree, Medicare for All Saves Money:

https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/484301-22-studies-agree-medicare-for-all-saves-money?amp
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:32 am    Post subject:

ElginBaylor wrote:
governator wrote:
ElginBaylor wrote:
How many Republicans were appalled by Trump during the run up to the 2016 elections, who have now fallen in line and turn a blind eye to the most disastrous presidency in history? Seemed like no one took Trump seriously when he started his campaign. Now everything the (bleep) grabber does that is illegal and just plain foolish is excused as the deep state trying to overturn the election.

If Bernie is the candidate, the Democrats will fall in line just the Republicans did for Trump.


Maybe but $/tax increases is the most powerful or the hardest agenda Bernie gotta sell to middle/middle upper/upper income Democrats, trump was and is just a bumbling baffoon but he gets them a perceived ‘tax cut’

But what sounds crazier? A big beautiful wall that Mexico will pay for, or healthcare as a right for everyone. I think it will all be about the approach and how to effectively communicate the benefits to everyone (but the 1%) of Bernie's social plans. I'm pretty much middle middle class but I don't mind paying more in taxes as long as the increase in my paycheck offsets those tax increases and I feel good about where my tax dollars are being spent.

But there's no big beautiful wall. Trump couldn't get money for it with a Republican House and Senate majorities.

This may not be the best analogy.
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:34 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
If as Democrats we say it's not "okay" for Russia to help Trump, then we can't turn around and pretend it's "okay" if they are helping a Democratic nominee.

But there's no way for the Sanders campaign to stop Russian interference. Trump openly and surreptitiously petitioned Russia for election interference in 2016 (not to mention what he's doing now).


::sigh::

Okay, here's what Bernie could have differently this time:

Made it known to the public when he found out instead of hiding it for a month.
Not blame the press when it comes out.
Have his surrogates admit the truth instead of calling it fake news.

How's that for a start? Don't act like Trump. How hard is that? Is that too much to ask of our candidate?


According to Michael Moore, he didn’t reveal it because it was a classified briefing.


Did Moore explain why the "classified" information became declassified all of a sudden?


It didn’t, the media reported it and then it was in the open.


OK. So hiw did this "classified" information that Bernie was forbidden from mentioning suddenly become media fodder and why did that media (besides Moore) not mention that aspect?


It’s being reported everywhere that he had a classified briefing about this. No need to continue putting it quotes as though it’s not true.

https://tinyurl.com/vy39vw3

“The classified FBI briefing wasn’t of the type routinely given to presidential campaigns about election security, those people said. It was given in reaction to intelligence considered compelling enough that Mr. Sanders needed to be alerted, one of the people said.”

So what possible reason would a story like this leaked to the media the day before another one primary? I’m sure it’s just a “coincidence”.


If there was conspiratorial intent to release this and harm him, why would they do it right before a rather small caucus, instead of right before, say, Super Tuesday? Or better still, why not before Iowa and NH and submarine him from the start? That’s the problem with viewing everything through the lens of either good for him or part of a conspiracy.


The problem I had with the conspiratorial angle is that Friday is easily the worst day to release news if the intent is to damage someone. Of course, it's smart politics to trash the WashPo anyway. Distrust of the media is at an all-time high (I just trashed MSNBC). I do like having someone on our side who can play up this dynamic for a change.


I like how the answer to “Bernie’s camp is a lot like Trump’s” is, “no it’s not, that’s an establishment lie, told through the corporate media, and hey, I’m glad we are now attacking the media too (you know, like trump does)”.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:40 am    Post subject:

Theseus wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
kikanga wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
They have two proven liars in Williams and Reid, a professional "Russia-linked" oligarchy soap opera weaver in Maddow, and a neo-con in Wallace on the air. Why would would Mathews not fit in?


That was very Trumpian to lump an entire range of professional journalists into a single bag of rotten apples as if it's completely obvious. Just a terrible, terrible take.


"Russia-linked" Maddow. What the (bleep)!?

There's a strongly held belief among some leftists that Russia's interference in the 2016 election never happened and that it's a hoax made up by "The Democratic Establishment" to cover for Clinton's loss or something.


Its the first I've heard of it, and I know a lot of ardent Bernie supporters in my personal life. I'm sure there isn't supporting evidence. If I were one of those Russians trying to make Bernie Sanders look bad, I'd adopt this viewpoint for my online persona. It makes them look lacking in credibility.


I live in Bernie country. At least a quarter of the Bernie supporters I know think the Russia thing is at least significantly made up. A small number of the biggest believers are now Tulsi voters (go figure). But live, on the ground, no internet between us? Bernie voters are just like online. There are a lot of nice people who support him for various reasons, but a significant loud minority that is lost in conspiracy theories and hatred of their own side. Just like Trump’s active base was. Because they are feeding at the same trough.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:44 am    Post subject:

Bernie may not be able to bring trump down but the stock market slide (if it continues) certainly will
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:52 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Warren is my preference by a mile. And I was there step by step while she went from bipartisanship to nuking the filibuster this campaign. Loved when she said concentration camp workers will be prosecuted (there is alot of abuse happening). Not to mention the Supreme Court packing. She has been at the forefront of pragmatism and policy for years now. And she is by far the best candidate on both fronts. It’s a shame she is punished by the electorate for not having a Y chromosome.


Yep. Unfortunately too many "progressive" people have a bizarre affinity for an old, brash, dishonest white dude with a cult following.

Sound familiar?


She’s my favorite person of the bunch, and I was a Hillary supporter in 16 (and 08). My lack of support for her was based on her very poor political skills and judgment (needed in the general and to govern) and her foreign policy dearth. The second one is subservient to the first, but my main concerns were beat trump and reforge our alliances.

Contrary to popular (30%) opinion as voted thus far, m4a, free college, and purity purging the party are not our top priorities. They are important, just as stage two cancer is, but that’s not the first thing you treat if a trauma patient comes into the ER. We have to beat trump and we also have to stop the march of the Russian propaganda machine across our other NATO allies, and not fall victim to isolationism designed to let Putin’s thugs run wild wherever they like unchallenged. Because college tuition won’t matter in that world. We have a trauma patient. Stop the bleeding, stabilize the patient, then treat the other diseases.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:54 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:

I live in Bernie country. At least a quarter of the Bernie supporters I know think the Russia thing is at least significantly made up.


Heaven (or pick your paradise) help our poor children.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:54 am    Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:
22 studies agree, Medicare for All Saves Money:

https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/484301-22-studies-agree-medicare-for-all-saves-money?amp


I think that’s something we all agree on here (although governator isn’t happy about how that happens.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:56 am    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
Omar Little wrote:

I live in Bernie country. At least a quarter of the Bernie supporters I know think the Russia thing is at least significantly made up.


Heaven (or pick your paradise) help our poor children.


As an aside, we had caucuses last time, and the behavior of the Bernie organizers live is textbook Bernie bro.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:16 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
ElginBaylor wrote:
How many Republicans were appalled by Trump during the run up to the 2016 elections, who have now fallen in line and turn a blind eye to the most disastrous presidency in history? Seemed like no one took Trump seriously when he started his campaign. Now everything the (bleep) grabber does that is illegal and just plain foolish is excused as the deep state trying to overturn the election.

If Bernie is the candidate, the Democrats will fall in line just the Republicans did for Trump.


Maybe but $/tax increases is the most powerful or the hardest agenda Bernie gotta sell to middle/middle upper/upper income Democrats, trump was and is just a bumbling baffoon but he gets them a perceived ‘tax cut’


History will Judge that tax cut as A 9/11 style Terrorist Attack on the citizens of the United States

Hopefully Bernie will be a 9/11 to these scum Billionaires
Apple Inc https://www.icij.org/investigations/paradise-papers/apples-secret-offshore-island-hop-revealed-by-paradise-papers-leak-icij/ 250+ Billion CASH HIDDEN


They're all like this

No human
Microsoft
Tesla
Amazon
Exxon
Apple
None of them should have a Billion dollar personal bank account

Microsoft Exxon Apple IBM et al OWE THE PLANET recycling and cleanup costs worth half the value of their respective companies

Children of the Earth willl be required to fight to protect their Planet
Be thankful Bernie is willing to start that fight for us
Instead of some Corporate Democrats

America's Two party system is (bleep) and everyone on Earth knows it
Hopefully Bernie wins POTUS
Then spends 4-8yrs building a real third party

Name one Politican. Your Bestest ever, who called AIPAC a stage for Bigotry?

Truth HEALS!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:23 am    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
Omar Little wrote:

I live in Bernie country. At least a quarter of the Bernie supporters I know think the Russia thing is at least significantly made up.


Heaven (or pick your paradise) help our poor children.


From becoming Nate Silver?

https://twitter.com/natesilver538/status/1074848968188796930?lang=en

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-did-russian-interference-affect-the-2016-election/
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:33 am    Post subject:

What does that Nate Silvers article disprove?

Now link to some Matt Taibbi (sp) articles/tweets on the subject.
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ribeye
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:00 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
ribeye wrote:
Omar Little wrote:

I live in Bernie country. At least a quarter of the Bernie supporters I know think the Russia thing is at least significantly made up.


Heaven (or pick your paradise) help our poor children.


From becoming Nate Silver?

https://twitter.com/natesilver538/status/1074848968188796930?lang=en

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-did-russian-interference-affect-the-2016-election/


Since FiveThirtyEight said that the Comey press conference probably swung the election, they can't then say (with any credibility) it was Russian interference. They did say this though:

Quote:
But if it’s hard to prove anything about Russian interference, it’s equally hard to disprove anything: The interference campaign could easily have had chronic, insidious effects that could be mistaken for background noise but which in the aggregate were enough to swing the election by 0.8 percentage points toward Trump — not a high hurdle to clear because 0.8 points isn’t much at all.


So, as BVH said above, 538 doesn't disprove a thing, but more to the point, they don't even try to prove that the Russian interference was not a thing.

(And I still don't know what to think of Matt. I used to think he was a good journalist, but then maybe I was enamored with his anti-establishment shtick. Still I want to be careful not to condemn him because this once his take differs from others I respect.


Last edited by ribeye on Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:01 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
ribeye wrote:
Omar Little wrote:

I live in Bernie country. At least a quarter of the Bernie supporters I know think the Russia thing is at least significantly made up.


Heaven (or pick your paradise) help our poor children.


From becoming Nate Silver?

https://twitter.com/natesilver538/status/1074848968188796930?lang=en

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-did-russian-interference-affect-the-2016-election/


I might invite you (as you did with Mule) to actually read the article, where:

1. He does not deny the Russian operation
2. He questions (note, questions, not disputes) that given the smallish budget of the single point of the operation he was aware of at the time (relative to the campaign budgets) how much actual effect it had.
3. He acknowledges the budget would go further there and he can't quantify what was gotten for it.
4. He acknowledges that the effects on the messaging in the campaign tracked the message sown by the troll farm.
5. He acknowledges a small move might have tipped the balance.
6. He acknowledges he doesn't know and it might be larger than he posits.

Basically he's saying, "this one thing (potentially the tip of an iceberg I can't quantify) may not (or may in and of itself) have been a huge contributor to the election, but even if it was small, it might have been enough"

I don't think that's what you think he said.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:06 am    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
ribeye wrote:
Omar Little wrote:

I live in Bernie country. At least a quarter of the Bernie supporters I know think the Russia thing is at least significantly made up.


Heaven (or pick your paradise) help our poor children.


From becoming Nate Silver?

https://twitter.com/natesilver538/status/1074848968188796930?lang=en

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-did-russian-interference-affect-the-2016-election/


Since FiveThirtyEight said that the Comey press conference probably swung the election, they can't then say (with any credibility) it was Russian interference. They did say this though:

Quote:
But if it’s hard to prove anything about Russian interference, it’s equally hard to disprove anything: The interference campaign could easily have had chronic, insidious effects that could be mistaken for background noise but which in the aggregate were enough to swing the election by 0.8 percentage points toward Trump — not a high hurdle to clear because 0.8 points isn’t much at all.


So, as BVH said above, 538 doesn't disprove a thing, but more to the point, they don't even try to prove that the Russian interference was not a thing.


Well who exactly is denying that there wasn't any Russian interference? Most of what is Russiagate "trutherism" is basically this. It was overhyped.
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:11 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
ribeye wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
ribeye wrote:
Omar Little wrote:

I live in Bernie country. At least a quarter of the Bernie supporters I know think the Russia thing is at least significantly made up.


Heaven (or pick your paradise) help our poor children.


From becoming Nate Silver?

https://twitter.com/natesilver538/status/1074848968188796930?lang=en

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-did-russian-interference-affect-the-2016-election/


Since FiveThirtyEight said that the Comey press conference probably swung the election, they can't then say (with any credibility) it was Russian interference. They did say this though:

Quote:
But if it’s hard to prove anything about Russian interference, it’s equally hard to disprove anything: The interference campaign could easily have had chronic, insidious effects that could be mistaken for background noise but which in the aggregate were enough to swing the election by 0.8 percentage points toward Trump — not a high hurdle to clear because 0.8 points isn’t much at all.


So, as BVH said above, 538 doesn't disprove a thing, but more to the point, they don't even try to prove that the Russian interference was not a thing.


Well who exactly is denying that there wasn't any Russian interference? Most of what is Russiagate "trutherism" is basically this. It was overhyped.


It became overhyped fake news the moment it became public that a significant portion of it was aimed at the far left. And without any intended irony i would point out that one of the common bot messages now is that, you guessed it, it's fake and overhyped.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:12 am    Post subject:

Remember when Elizabeth Warren was a snake to Berners versus now when she appears to be blocking Biden from reaching the delegate threshold in California, which would cripple his campaign?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:14 am    Post subject:

For the record, if a small, mildly effective campaign to assist Trump in winning the elections, which he welcomed, and after which he has repeatedly bowed to Putin's agenda, is all there is, it's really impossible to overhype that. The best case scenario is we have an unwitting Russian asset in the Presidency.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:16 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
For the record, if a small, mildly effective campaign to assist Trump in winning the elections, which he welcomed, and after which he has repeatedly bowed to Putin's agenda, is all there is, it's really impossible to overhype that. The best case scenario is we have an unwitting Russian asset in the Presidency.


So is it overstating things to say, as is routine, the election was hacked?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:22 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
ribeye wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
ribeye wrote:
Omar Little wrote:

I live in Bernie country. At least a quarter of the Bernie supporters I know think the Russia thing is at least significantly made up.


Heaven (or pick your paradise) help our poor children.


From becoming Nate Silver?

https://twitter.com/natesilver538/status/1074848968188796930?lang=en

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-did-russian-interference-affect-the-2016-election/


Since FiveThirtyEight said that the Comey press conference probably swung the election, they can't then say (with any credibility) it was Russian interference. They did say this though:

Quote:
But if it’s hard to prove anything about Russian interference, it’s equally hard to disprove anything: The interference campaign could easily have had chronic, insidious effects that could be mistaken for background noise but which in the aggregate were enough to swing the election by 0.8 percentage points toward Trump — not a high hurdle to clear because 0.8 points isn’t much at all.


So, as BVH said above, 538 doesn't disprove a thing, but more to the point, they don't even try to prove that the Russian interference was not a thing.


Well who exactly is denying that there wasn't any Russian interference? Most of what is Russiagate "trutherism" is basically this. It was overhyped.


Says who, besides the uninformed?

Quote:
. . .the former FBI director has indicted, convicted or gotten guilty pleas from 34 people and three companies, including top advisers to President Trump, Russian spies and hackers with ties to the Kremlin. The charges, which Mueller referenced during his opening statement to the House Judiciary Committee on July 24, range from interfering with the 2016 election and hacking emails to lying to investigators and tampering with witnesses.

Besides all of this, since we don't have access to the records of the key players, Trump's team and Puttin's team, how can anyone say it is over-hyped fake news and maintain ANY credibility.

You sure are trying hard. You are failing just as equally.


Last edited by ribeye on Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:22 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
For the record, if a small, mildly effective campaign to assist Trump in winning the elections, which he welcomed, and after which he has repeatedly bowed to Putin's agenda, is all there is, it's really impossible to overhype that. The best case scenario is we have an unwitting Russian asset in the Presidency.


So is it overstating things to say, as is routine, the election was hacked?


No. Literally we now know they hacked into voting machines along with email servers (notice how they have revealed nothing of the RNC hacks). And we know a lot more detail about the breadth of their operation, and its depth. So basically they helped elect a guy who continues to follow their wishes, have somehow co-opted his entire party, and he's gutted the cyber protection mechanisms so we have no idea what they might do to the machines this year.

And from a colloquial point of view, the hacked a significant loud portion of the Sanders movement, got a significant number to not vote, vote third party, or vote Trump, and to influence others to do so, to turn them against their own allies, and to deny it to this day. They hacked the vanguard of the Bernie army, and own it currently.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:34 am    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
Besides all of this, since we don't have access to the records of the key players, Trump's team and Puttin's team, how can anyone say it is over-hyped fake news and maintain ANY credibility.


So a lack of disproof is now proof? You realize what a logical equivocation that is? Almost any crack pot conspiracy can now gain a sheen of credibility when you no longer have to apply a basic journalistic standard of proof, just "Well, you can't disprove it".

For the record, I believe what Silver believes. I don't get how that makes me a "truther", but okay.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:37 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
ribeye wrote:
Besides all of this, since we don't have access to the records of the key players, Trump's team and Puttin's team, how can anyone say it is over-hyped fake news and maintain ANY credibility.


So a lack of disproof is now proof? You realize what a logical equivocation that is? Almost any crack pot conspiracy can now gain a sheen of credibility when you no longer have to apply a basic journalistic standard of proof, just "Well, you can't disprove it".

For the record, I believe what Silver believes. I don't get how that makes me a "truther", but okay.


Do you always only read that which might support your belief?

Do you think others don't see how you selectively ignored the primary paragraph:

Quote:
. . .the former FBI director has indicted, convicted or gotten guilty pleas from 34 people and three companies, including top advisers to President Trump, Russian spies and hackers with ties to the Kremlin. The charges, which Mueller referenced during his opening statement to the House Judiciary Committee on July 24, range from interfering with the 2016 election and hacking emails to lying to investigators and tampering with witnesses.

.


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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:38 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
ribeye wrote:
Besides all of this, since we don't have access to the records of the key players, Trump's team and Puttin's team, how can anyone say it is over-hyped fake news and maintain ANY credibility.


So a lack of disproof is now proof? You realize what a logical equivocation that is? Almost any crack pot conspiracy can now gain a sheen of credibility when you no longer have to apply a basic journalistic standard of proof, just "Well, you can't disprove it".

For the record, I believe what Silver believes. I don't get how that makes me a "truther", but okay.


Based on that article, this means you believe that they helped him, it was significant if possibly not huge in scope (although he wrote that prior to much more information becoming available), and that there's a significant chance it did have an effect on the election, and would only need a minor one to be effective?
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