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greenfrog
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 Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | For the record, if a small, mildly effective campaign to assist Trump in winning the elections, which he welcomed, and after which he has repeatedly bowed to Putin's agenda, is all there is, it's really impossible to overhype that. The best case scenario is we have an unwitting Russian asset in the Presidency. |
So is it overstating things to say, as is routine, the election was hacked? |
No. Literally we now know they hacked into voting machines along with email servers (notice how they have revealed nothing of the RNC hacks). And we know a lot more detail about the breadth of their operation, and its depth. So basically they helped elect a guy who continues to follow their wishes, have somehow co-opted his entire party, and he's gutted the cyber protection mechanisms so we have no idea what they might do to the machines this year.
And from a colloquial point of view, the hacked a significant loud portion of the Sanders movement, got a significant number to not vote, vote third party, or vote Trump, and to influence others to do so, to turn them against their own allies, and to deny it to this day. They hacked the vanguard of the Bernie army, and own it currently. |
So I'm the conspiracy theorist for not believing in tales of Trump being a Russian agent since 1987, Michael Cohen sneaking around Prague, Carter Paige taking payoffs from oligarchs, and in a Russian psyops operation that has infected the brains of everybody I happen to disagree with (how convenient for you)? |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | Besides all of this, since we don't have access to the records of the key players, Trump's team and Puttin's team, how can anyone say it is over-hyped fake news and maintain ANY credibility. |
So a lack of disproof is now proof? You realize what a logical equivocation that is? Almost any crack pot conspiracy can now gain a sheen of credibility when you no longer have to apply a basic journalistic standard of proof, just "Well, you can't disprove it".
For the record, I believe what Silver believes. I don't get how that makes me a "truther", but okay. |
Based on that article, this means you believe that they helped him, it was significant if possibly not huge in scope (although he wrote that prior to much more information becoming available), and that there's a significant chance it did have an effect on the election, and would only need a minor one to be effective? |
I think he's genuflecting a little bit too much (don't what to get the Greenwald/Taibbi treatment), but yes. Facebook and social media probably decided the election, it was just mostly by Americans engaging in bad behavior.
Also the media has raked in a fortune hyping it off the rails. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | For the record, if a small, mildly effective campaign to assist Trump in winning the elections, which he welcomed, and after which he has repeatedly bowed to Putin's agenda, is all there is, it's really impossible to overhype that. The best case scenario is we have an unwitting Russian asset in the Presidency. |
So is it overstating things to say, as is routine, the election was hacked? |
No. Literally we now know they hacked into voting machines along with email servers (notice how they have revealed nothing of the RNC hacks). And we know a lot more detail about the breadth of their operation, and its depth. So basically they helped elect a guy who continues to follow their wishes, have somehow co-opted his entire party, and he's gutted the cyber protection mechanisms so we have no idea what they might do to the machines this year.
And from a colloquial point of view, the hacked a significant loud portion of the Sanders movement, got a significant number to not vote, vote third party, or vote Trump, and to influence others to do so, to turn them against their own allies, and to deny it to this day. They hacked the vanguard of the Bernie army, and own it currently. |
So I'm the conspiracy theorist for not believing in tales of Trump being a Russian agent since 1987, Michael Cohen sneaking around Prague, Carter Paige taking payoffs from oligarchs, and in a Russian psyops operation that has infected the brains of everybody I happen to disagree with (how convenient for you)? |
No, you're a conspiracy theorist because you believe everything is a conspiracy against your guy, unless they say something positive, then it's good. And BTW, there's pretty good evidence Trump is and was a compromised person via the Russian mob and intelligence (which are actually two arms of the same organization) via money laundering and other shady financial deals.
I don't expect you to believe every speculative avenue that appears and is reported on, but you refuse to believe the ones that are pretty solid, while you actually demonstrate both their existence and efficacy.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | Do you think others don't see how you selectively ignored the primary paragraph:
| Quote: | | . . .the former FBI director has indicted, convicted or gotten guilty pleas from 34 people and three companies, including top advisers to President Trump, Russian spies and hackers with ties to the Kremlin. The charges, which Mueller referenced during his opening statement to the House Judiciary Committee on July 24, range from interfering with the 2016 election and hacking emails to lying to investigators and tampering with witnesses. |
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And not a single American was charged with collusion or conspiracy. The ENTIRE POINT of the probe. |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: |
So I'm the conspiracy theorist for not believing in tales of Trump being a Russian agent since 1987, Michael Cohen sneaking around Prague, Carter Paige taking payoffs from oligarchs, and in a Russian psyops operation that has infected the brains of everybody I happen to disagree with (how convenient for you)? |
Who is out there (besides Rachel) (yuck, yuck yuck) is factually stating that Trump is a Russian agent? Who out has said that that Steele got everything right? And we still don't know which Russian oligarchs may be helping whom, besides, it appears, Boris and Natasha (Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman) and the cat who bought off McConnell. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | No, you're a conspiracy theorist because you believe everything is a conspiracy against your guy, unless they say something positive, then it's good. And BTW, there's pretty good evidence Trump is and was a compromised person via the Russian mob and intelligence (which are actually two arms of the same organization) via money laundering and other shady financial deals.
I don't expect you to believe every speculative avenue that appears and is reported on, but you refuse to believe the ones that are pretty solid, while you actually demonstrate both their existence and efficacy. |
You mean Bernie? No. I just admitted yesterday I didn't think the WashPo grievance made any sense. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | Do you think others don't see how you selectively ignored the primary paragraph:
| Quote: | | . . .the former FBI director has indicted, convicted or gotten guilty pleas from 34 people and three companies, including top advisers to President Trump, Russian spies and hackers with ties to the Kremlin. The charges, which Mueller referenced during his opening statement to the House Judiciary Committee on July 24, range from interfering with the 2016 election and hacking emails to lying to investigators and tampering with witnesses. |
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And not a single American was charged with collusion or conspiracy. The ENTIRE POINT of the probe. |
No, the entire point of the probe was to find out what happened and if possible by whom. Mueller specifically states he couldn't prove conspiracy primarily because he was systematically blocked from and lied to by the potential conspirators. Which is of course why he couldn't exonerate on obstruction. And plenty of Americans were charged with helping the obstruction, and if he wasn't the President, Mueller clearly implies he could have charged Trump too.
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ribeye
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | Do you think others don't see how you selectively ignored the primary paragraph:
| Quote: | | . . .the former FBI director has indicted, convicted or gotten guilty pleas from 34 people and three companies, including top advisers to President Trump, Russian spies and hackers with ties to the Kremlin. The charges, which Mueller referenced during his opening statement to the House Judiciary Committee on July 24, range from interfering with the 2016 election and hacking emails to lying to investigators and tampering with witnesses. |
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And not a single American was charged with collusion or conspiracy. The ENTIRE POINT of the probe. |
Do you only watch Fox news? That there were no charges made does not mean that the investigation went where it needed to go. Mueller could not follow the money to Deutsche Bank or elsewhere. Also, since it appears you missed this as well, Trump can't be indicted according the the Justice Department.
Criminals are clever. They never got Al Capone on anything but tax evasion.
Last edited by ribeye on Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | No, you're a conspiracy theorist because you believe everything is a conspiracy against your guy, unless they say something positive, then it's good. And BTW, there's pretty good evidence Trump is and was a compromised person via the Russian mob and intelligence (which are actually two arms of the same organization) via money laundering and other shady financial deals.
I don't expect you to believe every speculative avenue that appears and is reported on, but you refuse to believe the ones that are pretty solid, while you actually demonstrate both their existence and efficacy. |
You mean Bernie? No. I just admitted yesterday I didn't think the WashPo grievance made any sense. |
That has nothing to do with anything, considering you think the WaPo IS part of a conspiracy against your guy.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: |
So I'm the conspiracy theorist for not believing in tales of Trump being a Russian agent since 1987, Michael Cohen sneaking around Prague, Carter Paige taking payoffs from oligarchs, and in a Russian psyops operation that has infected the brains of everybody I happen to disagree with (how convenient for you)? |
Who is out there (besides Rachel) (yuck, yuck yuck) is factually stating that Trump is a Russian agent? Who out has said that that Steele got everything right? And we still don't know which Russian oligarchs may be helping whom, besides, it appears, Boris and Natasha (Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman) and the cat who bought off McConnell. |
The '87 thing was Jonathan Chait's stupid theory. The problem is this kind of speculative junk is now acceptable in mainstream publications. If it was just bandied about on the internet I wouldn't care. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:59 am Post subject: |
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I'm confused.
Is green saying there was nothing there between Trump and Russia?
Is he saying the coordination between Trump and a foreign power was insignificant?
And are the views he expressing now, only being expressed now because Russia is helping Sanders?
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Last edited by kikanga on Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:01 am; edited 2 times in total |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | No, you're a conspiracy theorist because you believe everything is a conspiracy against your guy, unless they say something positive, then it's good. And BTW, there's pretty good evidence Trump is and was a compromised person via the Russian mob and intelligence (which are actually two arms of the same organization) via money laundering and other shady financial deals.
I don't expect you to believe every speculative avenue that appears and is reported on, but you refuse to believe the ones that are pretty solid, while you actually demonstrate both their existence and efficacy. |
You mean Bernie? No. I just admitted yesterday I didn't think the WashPo grievance made any sense. |
That has nothing to do with anything, considering you think the WaPo IS part of a conspiracy against your guy. |
I believe media reflects the corporate and political interests of the elite (re: Manufacturing Consent). So you got me there. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | I'm confused.
Is green saying there was nothing there between Trump and Russia?
Is he saying the coordination between Trump and a foreign power was insignificant?
And are the views he expressing now, only being expressed now because Russia is helping Sanders? |
Didn't Mueller settle this?
And no, I've been consistent on this since we were arguing about Tulsi Gabbard being a Russian agent, a candidate I never particularly cared for but knew the same playbook would be used against Bernie.
Last edited by greenfrog on Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:06 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | I'm confused.
Is green saying there was nothing there between Trump and Russia?
Is he saying the coordination between Trump and a foreign power was insignificant?
And are the views he expressing now, only being expressed now because Russia is helping Sanders?
I hope he isn't working backwards from Sanders = good and anything negative relating to Sanders campaign = false. |
He moves all over as you knock each argument down, and then comes back to it later like it never happened. It's like whack a mole.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: |
So I'm the conspiracy theorist for not believing in tales of Trump being a Russian agent since 1987, Michael Cohen sneaking around Prague, Carter .Paige taking payoffs from oligarchs, and in a Russian psyops operation that has infected the brains of everybody I happen to disagree with (how convenient for you)? |
Who is out there (besides Rachel) (yuck, yuck yuck) is factually stating that Trump is a Russian agent? Who out has said that that Steele got everything right? And we still don't know which Russian oligarchs may be helping whom, besides, it appears, Boris and Natasha (Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman) and the cat who bought off McConnell. |
The '87 thing was Jonathan Chait's stupid theory. The problem is this kind of speculative junk is now acceptable in mainstream publications. If it was just bandied about on the internet I wouldn't care. |
Maybe you could find the quote where Chait said that Trump was a Russian agent since 1987. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | I'm confused.
Is green saying there was nothing there between Trump and Russia?
Is he saying the coordination between Trump and a foreign power was insignificant?
And are the views he expressing now, only being expressed now because Russia is helping Sanders? |
Didn't Mueller settle this? |
By saying Trump impeded his investigation to the point that he couldn't draw conclusions? I wouldn't call that "settle".
I hope you aren't working backwards from Sanders = good and anything negative relating to Sanders campaign = false.
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | I'm confused.
Is green saying there was nothing there between Trump and Russia?
Is he saying the coordination between Trump and a foreign power was insignificant?
And are the views he expressing now, only being expressed now because Russia is helping Sanders? |
Didn't Mueller settle this? |
By saying Trump impeded his investigation to the point that he couldn't draw conclusions? I wouldn't call that "settle".
I hope you aren't working backwards from Sanders = good and anything negative relating to Sanders campaign = false. |
You know that wasn't the thrust of the probe. It was about collusion. |
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Heartburn
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | I'm confused.
Is green saying there was nothing there between Trump and Russia?
Is he saying the coordination between Trump and a foreign power was insignificant?
And are the views he expressing now, only being expressed now because Russia is helping Sanders? |
I'm puzzled, too. It reads like an argument with a MAGA. |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| Heartburn wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | I'm confused.
Is green saying there was nothing there between Trump and Russia?
Is he saying the coordination between Trump and a foreign power was insignificant?
And are the views he expressing now, only being expressed now because Russia is helping Sanders? |
I'm puzzled, too. |
I'm beginning to think this is all that this conversation is about. |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | I'm confused.
Is green saying there was nothing there between Trump and Russia?
Is he saying the coordination between Trump and a foreign power was insignificant?
And are the views he expressing now, only being expressed now because Russia is helping Sanders? |
Didn't Mueller settle this? |
By saying Trump impeded his investigation to the point that he couldn't draw conclusions? I wouldn't call that "settle".
I hope you aren't working backwards from Sanders = good and anything negative relating to Sanders campaign = false. |
You know that wasn't the thrust of the probe. It was about collusion. |
It was not about collusion with which there was an abundance. It was about criminal conspiracy, which is nearly impossible to prove without data from fellow conspirators--in this case Russians who don't cooperate.
AND it was about obstruction. |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Still waiting for that Chait quote. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | I'm confused.
Is green saying there was nothing there between Trump and Russia?
Is he saying the coordination between Trump and a foreign power was insignificant?
And are the views he expressing now, only being expressed now because Russia is helping Sanders? |
Didn't Mueller settle this? |
By saying Trump impeded his investigation to the point that he couldn't draw conclusions? I wouldn't call that "settle".
I hope you aren't working backwards from Sanders = good and anything negative relating to Sanders campaign = false. |
You know that wasn't the thrust of the probe. It was about collusion. |
It was not about collusion with which there was an abundance. It was about criminal conspiracy, which is nearly impossible to prove without data from fellow conspirators--in this case Russians who don't cooperate.
AND it was about obstruction. |
I get it. "You can't disprove it". That may be enough for you. I think it's a dangerous standard to live by. |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | I'm confused.
Is green saying there was nothing there between Trump and Russia?
Is he saying the coordination between Trump and a foreign power was insignificant?
And are the views he expressing now, only being expressed now because Russia is helping Sanders? |
Didn't Mueller settle this? |
By saying Trump impeded his investigation to the point that he couldn't draw conclusions? I wouldn't call that "settle".
I hope you aren't working backwards from Sanders = good and anything negative relating to Sanders campaign = false. |
You know that wasn't the thrust of the probe. It was about collusion. |
It was not about collusion with which there was an abundance. It was about criminal conspiracy, which is nearly impossible to prove without data from fellow conspirators--in this case Russians who don't cooperate.
AND it was about obstruction. |
I get it. "You can't disprove it". That may be enough for you. I think it's a dangerous standard to live by. |
No. You don't get it. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:15 am Post subject: |
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You can have an argument grounded in reality that acknowledges Russian interference in our elections for what it is (dangerous and effective). AND support Bernie Sanders for President.
It's misguided to dismiss and downplay the former just to maintain a sainthood for the latter.
Here's what I'm talking about.
| Quote: | | The brilliance of this new type of authoritarianism is that instead of simply oppressing opposition, as had been the case with 20th-century strains, it climbs inside all ideologies and movements, exploiting and rendering them absurd. One moment Surkov would fund civic forums and human-rights NGOs, the next he would quietly support nationalist movements that accuse the NGOs of being tools of the West. With a flourish he sponsored lavish arts festivals for the most provocative modern artists in Moscow, then supported Orthodox fundamentalists, dressed all in black and carrying crosses, who in turn attacked the modern-art exhibitions. The Kremlin’s idea is to own all forms of political discourse, to not let any independent movements develop outside of its walls. Its Moscow can feel like an oligarchy in the morning and a democracy in the afternoon, a monarchy for dinner and a totalitarian state by bedtime. |
| Quote: | The Hidden Author of Putinism
How Vladislav Surkov invented the new Russia |
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/11/hidden-author-putinism-russia-vladislav-surkov/382489/
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | Still waiting for that Chait quote. |
I'm busy, atm. It shouldn't be hard to find. It was in his regular column. I believe he prefaced it by saying "there's a 20% chance" he's a Manchurian candidate or something. |
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