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Wilt
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 Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: |
First of all, you have more faith in the populace's ability to reason than I do. And I don't say that in a dismissive fashion at all. It's a good thing. |
When it comes to the general electorate, I actually don't think I have any more faith in their ability to reason than you do.
But black voters, particularly since they had to fight and died for the right to vote, take it more seriously than other groups. Black women, especially, are some of the most informed and active voters.
| Quote: | | Secondly, this actually isn't about him running as a black man at all from my perspective. This is about a guy who is a big time celebrity who remains popular with people of a range demographics despite the fact that he is batturd crazy. |
I agree that he's popular with multiple demographic groups. But the ploy here is to attract black people, primarily. And you can also say they're trying to attract young people in general, but I don't think that's their primary audience.
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LarryCoon
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| angrypuppy wrote: | To place my cards on the table, I've been an Elizabeth Warren fan for years. But I'd vote for anyone the Dems nominate, without regard to age or health.
I absolutely hate Donald Trump. He's a danger to our democracy. |
I agree with your point about it having become a rather....one-sided discussion, but I think the reasons for that are important -- and those reasons also address your main point today.
As I've said many times in this thread, I really welcome an objective, informed discussion between the left & right that doesn't utilize rhetorical BS to make a point. Unfortunately, at least for the ones on the right who come here to post, exactly one-half of that dialog has been missing. (That's not to say that those of us on the left have been pure & perfect; I'm saying it's been the case here that those on the right can't survive without it.)
One instance of that rhetorical BS has been "just-the-sameism." It's not a black-or-white situation -- cognitive acuity is a gradient. Hell, I'm not as sharp as I was ten years ago either, unfortunately -- life sucks. But any comparison between the nature and magnitude of Biden's normal, age-related cognitive changes, and Trump's (in my opinion, objectively clear) cognitive changes is simply a false comparison.
And of course, the rhetorical BS sweeps those differences under the rug, or even better, points at Biden hoping people will engage their confirmation bias and agree, while also ignoring Trump's huge problems (that's one reason I thought the Lincoln Project video was well done where they cut from people like Trump Jr. complaining about it on Fox to instances of Trump demonstrating exactly what he was complaining about).
So the question is, how do we objectively discuss age-related cognitive changes without falling into the trap of overlooking the difference in magnitude and falling into the trap of just-the-sameism? |
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Wilt
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:59 am Post subject: |
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Biden will NOT travel to Milwaukee to accept the nomination, they just announced.
Not a big surprise, but worth mentioning.
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Wilt wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: |
First of all, you have more faith in the populace's ability to reason than I do. And I don't say that in a dismissive fashion at all. It's a good thing. |
When it comes to the general electorate, I actually don't think I have any more faith in their ability to reason than you do.
But black voters, particularly since they had to fight and died for the right to vote, take it more seriously than other groups. Black women, especially, are some of the most informed and active voters.
| Quote: | | Secondly, this actually isn't about him running as a black man at all from my perspective. This is about a guy who is a big time celebrity who remains popular with people of a range demographics despite the fact that he is batturd crazy. |
I agree that he's popular with multiple demographic groups. But the ploy here is to attract black people, primarily. And you can also say they're trying to attract young people in general, but I don't think that's their primary audience. |
It's a ploy to dilute the Biden vote, period. And for that reason, I think it is a bad idea to downplay its significance.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| Wilt wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | | I'm sure they think that, but they're almost certainly wrong. Black people are aware that Kanye is a joke and they won't jeopardize their future on a joke campaign. |
Most people had never even heard of Jill Stein 2016, but I wouldn't say she had no impact in regards to Trump getting elected.
This race is going to be closer than people think, in my opinion. Everything is going to be a factor. |
Yeah, but Jill Stein's candidacy wasn't an obvious ploy. The whole rationale behind Kanye's "candidacy" is to assume black people are stupid and that they will vote for a crazy person solely because he's black. But if you're a rational black person, you're already aware of it and you know it's a joke. A few will be duped, but I don't think it'll make a difference between win and loss.
Sure, Jill Stein voters, Johnson voters, and non-voters (the latter being the most significant by far) played a role in the 2016 disaster. |
Trump was also an abstraction then (he shouldn't have been, but whatever) and Hillary Clinton was strongly disliked among certain demographics while also being seen as the presumed victor - a deadly combo.
Anyway, vote and get out the vote like Biden is neck and neck in the polls.
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LarryCoon
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | Somebody posted a zoom video they took of me talking about a particular topic the other day. I was shocked at how many times I hesitated while looking for the precise word I wanted. That's often what Biden is doing (Obama used to do it too). And it's completely different than being a babbling fool making (bleep) up and spewing word salad nonsense and lies on the way to dozens of incomplete sentences the way Trump does in virtually EVERY SINGLE PUBLIC APPEARANCE.
Good lord. |
Ha ha -- welcome to the club!  I do TV, radio, podcasts, and videos, and I'm regularly depressed by what a babbling idiot I sound like. For videos I have to advance-script every word, or else it's nearly impossible to have it come out right, make the points I want to make, and explain things clearly -- and even with scripts I often require multiple takes. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | vote and get out the vote like Biden is neck and neck in the polls. |
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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ChefLinda
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 24166
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: |
First of all, you have more faith in the populace's ability to reason than I do. And I don't say that in a dismissive fashion at all. It's a good thing. |
When it comes to the general electorate, I actually don't think I have any more faith in their ability to reason than you do.
But black voters, particularly since they had to fight and died for the right to vote, take it more seriously than other groups. Black women, especially, are some of the most informed and active voters.
| Quote: | | Secondly, this actually isn't about him running as a black man at all from my perspective. This is about a guy who is a big time celebrity who remains popular with people of a range demographics despite the fact that he is batturd crazy. |
I agree that he's popular with multiple demographic groups. But the ploy here is to attract black people, primarily. And you can also say they're trying to attract young people in general, but I don't think that's their primary audience. |
It's a ploy to dilute the Biden vote, period. And for that reason, I think it is a bad idea to downplay its significance. |
| Quote: | Patrick Marley @patrickdmarley (Milwaukee Journal Sentinel)
Per GOP source, Wisconsin Republicans are hoping @kanyewest will receive as many votes as Libertarian Gary Johnson did in 2016 -- about 107,000. |
They are obviously gaming this out.
Last edited by ChefLinda on Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| LarryCoon wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | Somebody posted a zoom video they took of me talking about a particular topic the other day. I was shocked at how many times I hesitated while looking for the precise word I wanted. That's often what Biden is doing (Obama used to do it too). And it's completely different than being a babbling fool making (bleep) up and spewing word salad nonsense and lies on the way to dozens of incomplete sentences the way Trump does in virtually EVERY SINGLE PUBLIC APPEARANCE.
Good lord. |
Ha ha -- welcome to the club! I do TV, radio, podcasts, and videos, and I'm regularly depressed by what a babbling idiot I sound like. For videos I have to advance-script every word, or else it's nearly impossible to have it come out right, make the points I want to make, and explain things clearly -- and even with scripts I often require multiple takes. |
If you guys saw videos of me just trying to get the names of my dogs and kids straight on a daily basis, you'd rethink even allowing my presence here (not saying you aren't already  ).
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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FernieBee
Star Player
Joined: 17 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:21 am Post subject: |
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Vote his racist, addled, orange a$$ out of office, and do the same to all his enablers...the ones who also hold public office.
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ChefLinda
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Location: Boston
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| LarryCoon wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | Somebody posted a zoom video they took of me talking about a particular topic the other day. I was shocked at how many times I hesitated while looking for the precise word I wanted. That's often what Biden is doing (Obama used to do it too). And it's completely different than being a babbling fool making (bleep) up and spewing word salad nonsense and lies on the way to dozens of incomplete sentences the way Trump does in virtually EVERY SINGLE PUBLIC APPEARANCE.
Good lord. |
Ha ha -- welcome to the club! I do TV, radio, podcasts, and videos, and I'm regularly depressed by what a babbling idiot I sound like. For videos I have to advance-script every word, or else it's nearly impossible to have it come out right, make the points I want to make, and explain things clearly -- and even with scripts I often require multiple takes. |
Then I'm in excellent company. |
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Wilt
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| LarryCoon wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | Somebody posted a zoom video they took of me talking about a particular topic the other day. I was shocked at how many times I hesitated while looking for the precise word I wanted. That's often what Biden is doing (Obama used to do it too). And it's completely different than being a babbling fool making (bleep) up and spewing word salad nonsense and lies on the way to dozens of incomplete sentences the way Trump does in virtually EVERY SINGLE PUBLIC APPEARANCE.
Good lord. |
Ha ha -- welcome to the club! I do TV, radio, podcasts, and videos, and I'm regularly depressed by what a babbling idiot I sound like. For videos I have to advance-script every word, or else it's nearly impossible to have it come out right, make the points I want to make, and explain things clearly -- and even with scripts I often require multiple takes. |
I remember being invited to a local radio station a few years ago to talk about Kosovo and their conflict with Serbia, since I'm a historian and come from that region. I was prepared and gave long answers. I thought I did well. They then sent me a recording of the interview a few days later. In a segment that was no more than 15 minutes, I said the word "basically" probably more than 50 times. And I don't even use that word often in everyday conversations. At least I don't think I do.
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jodeke
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | FWIW, that the United States ISN'T an anti Trump echo chamber is the bigger problem. |
One person's actual cognitive decline is a threat to the survival of our Democracy and the other person's isn't. |
It's amazing if you watch Biden talk at length and without notes on a wide range of complex issues, delving deep into detail and nuance, and come away with the idea that because he occasionally loses his place, misspeaks, stutters, or loses a train of thought amidst a bunch of them, that somehow it is a big problem. |
Somebody posted a zoom video they took of me talking about a particular topic the other day. I was shocked at how many times I hesitated while looking for the precise word I wanted. That's often what Biden is doing (Obama used to do it too). And it's completely different than being a babbling fool making (bleep) up and spewing word salad nonsense and lies on the way to dozens of incomplete sentences the way Trump does in virtually EVERY SINGLE PUBLIC APPEARANCE.
Good lord. |
Post it CL. 
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| Wilt wrote: | | LarryCoon wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | Somebody posted a zoom video they took of me talking about a particular topic the other day. I was shocked at how many times I hesitated while looking for the precise word I wanted. That's often what Biden is doing (Obama used to do it too). And it's completely different than being a babbling fool making (bleep) up and spewing word salad nonsense and lies on the way to dozens of incomplete sentences the way Trump does in virtually EVERY SINGLE PUBLIC APPEARANCE.
Good lord. |
Ha ha -- welcome to the club! I do TV, radio, podcasts, and videos, and I'm regularly depressed by what a babbling idiot I sound like. For videos I have to advance-script every word, or else it's nearly impossible to have it come out right, make the points I want to make, and explain things clearly -- and even with scripts I often require multiple takes. |
Basically I remember being invited to a local radio station a few years ago to basically talk about Kosovo and their conflict with Serbia, since I'm basically a historian and come from that region. I was prepared and basically gave long answers. I thought I did well, basically. They then sent me a recording of the interview, basically a few days later. In a segment that was no more than basically 15 minutes, I said the word "basically" probably more than 50 times. And I don't even basically use that word often basically in everyday conversations. At least I don't think I do. |
Think again
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Wilt
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:39 am Post subject: |
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DancingBarry
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:56 am Post subject: |
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All of the best ads are Trump incriminating himself in his own words. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: |
All of the best ads are Trump incriminating himself in his own words. |
And they make no difference to his cult.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Wilt
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Trump said he wants to give his acceptance speech at the White House. Even some Republicans are uncomfortable with that because it would ultimately be a political loser.
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| Wilt wrote: | | Trump said he wants to give his acceptance speech at the White House. Even some Republicans are uncomfortable with that because it would ultimately be a political loser. |
It's also a gross violation of the Hatch Act, but no one cares about that and even the courts won't enforce it.
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Wilt
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:52 am Post subject: |
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Politically speaking, I want him to do it. Because that's what everyone will be talking about and he might not even get a bounce from the "convention." But he probably won't because other Republicans will tell him that it's a bad idea. Thune said earlier today that it's probably illegal, but that's not really why they're opposing it.
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Dems: We'd like cops to stop killing minorities.
Reps: Dems hate police.
D's: Women should have the right to choose.
R's: Dems want to kill babies.
D's: We need reasonable immigration policies.
R's: Dems want open borders.
D's: We kneel in protest of inequality.
R's: Dems hate the flag, soldiers and America.
D's: We should wear masks to protect others.
R's: Dems want to take away your freedom.
D's: We should have background checks.
R's: Dems want to take your guns.
D's: Feds should not be policing in cities.
R's: Dems encourage rioting.
D's: People should have a living wage.
R's: Dems want to give everyone free stuff.
D's: We want religious freedom for everyone.
R's: Dems want Sharia Law.
D's: Taxes should be used for the benefit of everyone.
R's: Dems want socialism.
D's: We want people to be able to vote safely during a pandemic.
R's: Dems want to rig the election.
D's: People need more unemployment assistance.
R's: Dems blocked unemployment assistance.
D's: Listen, we just want to find ways to help people.
R's: Listen, we just want to find ways to misrepresent everything you say in order to scare people into voting for us, even though we offer zero solutions.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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ribeye
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 12632
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | Dems: We'd like cops to stop killing minorities.
Reps: Dems hate police.
D's: Women should have the right to choose.
R's: Dems want to kill babies.
D's: We need reasonable immigration policies.
R's: Dems want open borders.
D's: We kneel in protest of inequality.
R's: Dems hate the flag, soldiers and America.
D's: We should wear masks to protect others.
R's: Dems want to take away your freedom.
D's: We should have background checks.
R's: Dems want to take your guns.
D's: Feds should not be policing in cities.
R's: Dems encourage rioting.
D's: People should have a living wage.
R's: Dems want to give everyone free stuff.
D's: We want religious freedom for everyone.
R's: Dems want Sharia Law.
D's: Taxes should be used for the benefit of everyone.
R's: Dems want socialism.
D's: We want people to be able to vote safely during a pandemic.
R's: Dems want to rig the election.
D's: People need more unemployment assistance.
R's: Dems blocked unemployment assistance.
D's: Listen, we just want to find ways to help people.
R's: Listen, we just want to find ways to misrepresent everything you say in order to scare people into voting for us, even though we offer zero solutions. |
Freeking Bingo! Well done. Brilliant.
On a scale of one to ten  's, this is a
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Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | Dems: We'd like cops to stop killing minorities.
Reps: Dems hate police.
D's: Women should have the right to choose.
R's: Dems want to kill babies.
D's: We need reasonable immigration policies.
R's: Dems want open borders.
D's: We kneel in protest of inequality.
R's: Dems hate the flag, soldiers and America.
D's: We should wear masks to protect others.
R's: Dems want to take away your freedom.
D's: We should have background checks.
R's: Dems want to take your guns.
D's: Feds should not be policing in cities.
R's: Dems encourage rioting.
D's: People should have a living wage.
R's: Dems want to give everyone free stuff.
D's: We want religious freedom for everyone.
R's: Dems want Sharia Law.
D's: Taxes should be used for the benefit of everyone.
R's: Dems want socialism.
D's: We want people to be able to vote safely during a pandemic.
R's: Dems want to rig the election.
D's: People need more unemployment assistance.
R's: Dems blocked unemployment assistance.
D's: Listen, we just want to find ways to help people.
R's: Listen, we just want to find ways to misrepresent everything you say in order to scare people into voting for us, even though we offer zero solutions. |
Freeking Bingo! Well done. Brilliant.
On a scale of one of five this is a |
It’s from a friend. Can’t claim the work as mine.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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Surfitall
Star Player
Joined: 12 Feb 2002
Posts: 3829
Location: South Orange County
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| angrypuppy wrote: |
The concern is the proverbial "poisoning of the well" when ideas are dismissed if they align with the GOP. Some issues are obvious GOP propaganda, like voter fraud and the Nixonian fear-mongering on law and order. But Biden's health is a concern, and it isn't propaganda. We're reaching the point where political orthodoxy "trumps" reason. |
Thank you angrypuppy. Bill Maher had a good episode of Real Time this last week with Bari Weiss, who somewhat famously resigned from the NYT after claiming it fostered a culture in which anyone who so much as tolerated dissenting viewpoints was subjected to personal and social ostracization. It reminds me a little of this thread.
Since it's newsworthy and I don't think I saw discussion of this in this thread, here is a link to the tangentially related Harper's Magazine article titled, "A Letter on Justice and Social Debate."
https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/
Here is an excerpt: The free exchange of information and ideas, the lifeblood of a liberal society, is daily becoming more constricted. While we have come to expect this on the radical right, censoriousness is also spreading more widely in our culture: an intolerance of opposing views, a vogue for public shaming and ostracism, and the tendency to dissolve complex policy issues in a blinding moral certainty.
Worth a read for anyone that hasn't read it yet. Interesting topic. |
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