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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:56 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
I think one of the big urges toward moral relativism is the uncomfortable reality that if you vote for the GOP, you are one of four groups:

The uber wealthy taking care of business.

An overt bigot.

A person who is not overtly bigoted, but consciously ok with being allied with bigots for other gain. A passive bigot.

A person who is unconsciously ok with being allied with bigots for other gain. A closeted passive bigot.


As I said at the beginning of this discussion, it disturbs me to see that large segments of the left are just as intolerant and prone to stereotyping as large segments of the right. This actually fuels the right.


Stereotyping is engaging in gross generalities like "Asians can't drive", "Black people don't tip", "Mexicans Americans are illegal aliens" and "White men can't jump".

That's not even remotely what Omar is pointing out. He's made a distinction between different types of GOP voters - by definition, not stereotyping.

The reality is, to have voted GOP in this past election, you would have had to either willfully or through ignorance ignored very obvious red flags relating to race, ethnicity, gender and sexual orientation issues. Thus, his list is accurate and fair. As has been said quite correctly since last November, "You may not be a racist because you voted for Trump. But racism and bigotry certainly weren't a deal breaker for you" . . .

Regardless of frequently attempting to repeat the baseless "both sides do the same thing" mantra, it doesn't change the fact that the mantra is without merit. People on the Left aren't going after Republicans based on their race, gender, or orientation. Republicans are, and those that aren't are perfectly were perfectly willing to endorse those who were with their votes.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:10 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
The Nixon Southern Strategy which has been adopted by the GOP and passed down all the way through to Trump is PREDICATED on exploiting the RACISM (and strong racial attitudes conscious and subconscious) that exists in the electorate, primarily in the Red States and Red parts of Blue States.

How can a party have a strategy predicated on winning over large numbers of racists if no racists exist?

After the passage of the Civil Rights legislation, the parties reorganized themselves. And most of the racists left one party and joined the other.

Liberals didn't make that up. We're just pointing it out.

Note: Obviously, that doesn't mean all Republicans are racists or no Democrats are racists. But there is a huge difference between the parties along these racial fault lines.


To be fair to Nixon, he did face stiff competition from a much more legitimate racist (George Wallace), and despite having to dip further in conservatism as a result, he did do many progressive things regarding people of color and schooling (especially for Latinos).

Also the argument that 1964 was the turning point for the Democrat/Republican flip is a point of contention. Some might say, as the book Chain Reaction argues, that it was Reagan who first capitalized on Democrat's failure to retain the white working class in the North, thus leading the parties to be divided more on race than on class. Also, others might argue that Nixon and Ford represented a continuation, generally speaking, of New Deal politics.

Let's not forget also that FDR's New Deal Coalition was predicated on enforcing racial division so as to gain white support in both the North and South.

All of which is to say, the general sentiment of your post is valid. But it's always more complicated.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:23 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:

"You may not be a racist because you voted for Trump. But racism and bigotry certainly weren't a deal breaker for you" . . .


Truth
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:28 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:

"You may not be a racist because you voted for Trump. But racism and bigotry certainly weren't a deal breaker for you" . . .


Truth


My eyes rolled so hard they might have popped out of my head.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:33 pm    Post subject:

Everyday it becomes more apparent that racial issues are more because the left pushes these false nararuves tha anyone else. If tou disagree with anything the left says its obviously because your racist or sexist or a bigot. Almost comical at this point. The right is incompetent and the left blames everything on race or sex. How are we supposed to grow as a natiom when these problems exist and either side is willing to admit fault.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:41 pm    Post subject:

False nararuves...

I can't. I just can't...
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:59 pm    Post subject:

LakesGnrLake wrote:
Everyday it becomes more apparent that racial issues are more because the left pushes these false nararuves tha anyone else. If tou disagree with anything the left says its obviously because your racist or sexist or a bigot. Almost comical at this point. The right is incompetent and the left blames everything on race or sex. How are we supposed to grow as a natiom when these problems exist and either side is willing to admit fault.


I'm sure Germans in the 1930s thought racial issues were because of Jewish people, too.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:04 pm    Post subject:

LakesGnrLake wrote:
Everyday it becomes more apparent that racial issues are more because the left pushes these false nararuves tha anyone else. If tou disagree with anything the left says its obviously because your racist or sexist or a bigot. Almost comical at this point. The right is incompetent and the left blames everything on race or sex. How are we supposed to grow as a natiom when these problems exist and either side is willing to admit fault.



#SaysThePizzaGateGuy
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:42 pm    Post subject:

LakesGnrLake wrote:
Everyday it becomes more apparent that racial issues are more because the left pushes these false nararuves tha anyone else. If tou disagree with anything the left says its obviously because your racist or sexist or a bigot. Almost comical at this point. The right is incompetent and the left blames everything on race or sex. How are we supposed to grow as a natiom when these problems exist and either side is willing to admit fault.


I realize that you're fishing for a reaction, but that doesn't make you entirely wrong. Race and ethnicity are integral parts of American society. Both sides politicize race and ethnicity in their own ways. But to say that the left is pushing false narratives is a vast overstatement.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:24 pm    Post subject:

LakesGnrLake wrote:
Everyday it becomes more apparent that racial issues are more because the left pushes these false nararuves tha anyone else. If tou disagree with anything the left says its obviously because your racist or sexist or a bigot. Almost comical at this point. The right is incompetent and the left blames everything on race or sex. How are we supposed to grow as a natiom when these problems exist and either side is willing to admit fault.


There's some comedy going on, that's for sure. Unfortunately for you, you're the source.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:19 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
I think one of the big urges toward moral relativism is the uncomfortable reality that if you vote for the GOP, you are one of four groups:

The uber wealthy taking care of business.

An overt bigot.

A person who is not overtly bigoted, but consciously ok with being allied with bigots for other gain. A passive bigot.

A person who is unconsciously ok with being allied with bigots for other gain. A closeted passive bigot.


As I said at the beginning of this discussion, it disturbs me to see that large segments of the left are just as intolerant and prone to stereotyping as large segments of the right. This actually fuels the right.


I get that, but no one is fueling the people who showed up with the gun in the first place. Calling someone who came to kill you a jerk isn't putting you on some path to justifying them wanting to kill you. At some point, we just have to stop pretending that there's some common ground with people who either don't believe in the right to exist of some others, or with people who can look you in the face and tell you they aren't like that, but they sure do love the fiscal policy, so sorry, they're with the bigots.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:20 pm    Post subject:

BTW, as a correction, when I said GOP voter I meant Trump voter.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:21 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
Everyday it becomes more apparent that racial issues are more because the left pushes these false nararuves tha anyone else. If tou disagree with anything the left says its obviously because your racist or sexist or a bigot. Almost comical at this point. The right is incompetent and the left blames everything on race or sex. How are we supposed to grow as a natiom when these problems exist and either side is willing to admit fault.



#SaysThePizzaGateGuy


Speaking of Pizzagate!

Not sure if this has been posted, but even Alex Jones is apologizing for this.

Alex Jones Apologizes for Pushing Pizzagate Conspiracy Theory

If anyone was lead to believe pizzagate was a real thing, I hope they are seriously questioning any other narratives they've been fed by those same media outlets.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:32 pm    Post subject:

Sam Harris and the Washington Post's Anne Applebaum talk about Trump. She is one of the first voices which were connecting Trump tactics to Russian tactics. She is very knowledgeable on the subject, and Harris is always a good listen.

Harris has a lot of other good insights on a lot of his other podcasts about Trump.

He even has a couple podcasts with Gary Kasparov and David Frum about Trump if you're inclined to listen further.

Link
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:41 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
"You may not be a racist because you voted for Trump. But racism and bigotry certainly weren't a deal breaker for you" . . .



And that's a problem. You can go though all the excuses and the mental gymnastics you want, but voters enabled this garbage by voting for Donny. The minute the man said "Mexicans are rapists" he should've have been laughed all the way back to his penthouse and never heard from again. Instead this moron is running the country and America just showed its ass to the whole world.

Ya'll should've known better. That's why the left is (bleep) mad. And no amount of "Buh-buh-buh-Hilary" "Buh-buh-buh-Obama" "Buh-buh-buh-The left" is going to change that. Ya (bleep) up, period. Own that (bleep).
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:58 pm    Post subject:

My bleeding heart, out of touch lefty rant aside, here are some Saturday Night shenanigans:

So Dear Leader Donny tweets out something about watching Judge Jeanine on Faux News and this is what she says:

Quote:
"Paul Ryan needs to step down as speaker of the house," Pirro said, beginning her show. "The reason? He failed to deliver the votes on his health care bill, the one trumpeted to repeal and replace Obamacare. The one that he had seven years to work on. The one he hid under lock and key in the basement of Congress. The one that had to be pulled to prevent the embarrassment of not having enough votes to pass."

"But this bill didn't just fail," she continued. "It failed when Republicans had the House, the Senate, the White House."

The network host assured viewers that she hasn't spoken with Trump about the subject, but it seemed as though the president knew she would cover the issue on her show when Trump tweeted earlier in the day to "watch @JudgeJeanine on @FoxNews tonight at 9:00 P.M."

So Dear Leader Donny tweets out some (bleep) about watching Judge Jeanine on Fox and this is what she says:

"Americans elected the one man they believed could do it: A complete outsider beholden to no one but them," said Pirro on her show. "And Speaker Ryan, you come in with all your swagger and experience and you sell them a bill of goods which ends up a complete and total failure, and you allow our president, in his first 100 days, to come out of he box like that?"

"I want to be clear," she concluded. "This is not on President Trump. No one expected a businessman to completely understand the nuances, the complicated ins and outs of Washington and its legislative process. How would he know which individuals upon whom he would be able to rely?"


A coincidence i'm sure

This is the strong leadership America has been missing when Barack HUSSEIN Obama was driving this country off a cliff. #MAGA
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:51 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
I get that, but no one is fueling the people who showed up with the gun in the first place. Calling someone who came to kill you a jerk isn't putting you on some path to justifying them wanting to kill you. At some point, we just have to stop pretending that there's some common ground with people who either don't believe in the right to exist of some others, or with people who can look you in the face and tell you they aren't like that, but they sure do love the fiscal policy, so sorry, they're with the bigots.


If there isn't any common ground, all of us, including you, are screwed. This isn't a political zombie apocalypse. These people were in America before 2009. So were you.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:01 am    Post subject:

City_Dawg wrote:
My bleeding heart, out of touch lefty rant aside, here are some Saturday Night shenanigans:

So Dear Leader Donny tweets out something about watching Judge Jeanine on Faux News and this is what she says:

Quote:
"Paul Ryan needs to step down as speaker of the house," Pirro said, beginning her show. "The reason? He failed to deliver the votes on his health care bill, the one trumpeted to repeal and replace Obamacare. The one that he had seven years to work on. The one he hid under lock and key in the basement of Congress. The one that had to be pulled to prevent the embarrassment of not having enough votes to pass."

"But this bill didn't just fail," she continued. "It failed when Republicans had the House, the Senate, the White House."

The network host assured viewers that she hasn't spoken with Trump about the subject, but it seemed as though the president knew she would cover the issue on her show when Trump tweeted earlier in the day to "watch @JudgeJeanine on @FoxNews tonight at 9:00 P.M."

So Dear Leader Donny tweets out some (bleep) about watching Judge Jeanine on Fox and this is what she says:

"Americans elected the one man they believed could do it: A complete outsider beholden to no one but them," said Pirro on her show. "And Speaker Ryan, you come in with all your swagger and experience and you sell them a bill of goods which ends up a complete and total failure, and you allow our president, in his first 100 days, to come out of he box like that?"

"I want to be clear," she concluded. "This is not on President Trump. No one expected a businessman to completely understand the nuances, the complicated ins and outs of Washington and its legislative process. How would he know which individuals upon whom he would be able to rely?"


A coincidence i'm sure

This is the strong leadership America has been missing when Barack HUSSEIN Obama was driving this country off a cliff. #MAGA


Trump support is so solid, I've never seen anything like this before. They will defend him even if he is hurting them
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:16 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
I get that, but no one is fueling the people who showed up with the gun in the first place. Calling someone who came to kill you a jerk isn't putting you on some path to justifying them wanting to kill you. At some point, we just have to stop pretending that there's some common ground with people who either don't believe in the right to exist of some others, or with people who can look you in the face and tell you they aren't like that, but they sure do love the fiscal policy, so sorry, they're with the bigots.


If there isn't any common ground, all of us, including you, are screwed. This isn't a political zombie apocalypse. These people were in America before 2009. So were you.


Fortunately, a zombie apocalypse isn't necessary in this case. We've all seen enough to recognize the inevitable demographic shift that will light the way, rather than a mass movement of intolerant low information voters coming to their senses.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
City_Dawg wrote:
My bleeding heart, out of touch lefty rant aside, here are some Saturday Night shenanigans:

So Dear Leader Donny tweets out something about watching Judge Jeanine on Faux News and this is what she says:

Quote:
"Paul Ryan needs to step down as speaker of the house," Pirro said, beginning her show. "The reason? He failed to deliver the votes on his health care bill, the one trumpeted to repeal and replace Obamacare. The one that he had seven years to work on. The one he hid under lock and key in the basement of Congress. The one that had to be pulled to prevent the embarrassment of not having enough votes to pass."

"But this bill didn't just fail," she continued. "It failed when Republicans had the House, the Senate, the White House."

The network host assured viewers that she hasn't spoken with Trump about the subject, but it seemed as though the president knew she would cover the issue on her show when Trump tweeted earlier in the day to "watch @JudgeJeanine on @FoxNews tonight at 9:00 P.M."

So Dear Leader Donny tweets out some (bleep) about watching Judge Jeanine on Fox and this is what she says:

"Americans elected the one man they believed could do it: A complete outsider beholden to no one but them," said Pirro on her show. "And Speaker Ryan, you come in with all your swagger and experience and you sell them a bill of goods which ends up a complete and total failure, and you allow our president, in his first 100 days, to come out of he box like that?"

"I want to be clear," she concluded. "This is not on President Trump. No one expected a businessman to completely understand the nuances, the complicated ins and outs of Washington and its legislative process. How would he know which individuals upon whom he would be able to rely?"


A coincidence i'm sure

This is the strong leadership America has been missing when Barack HUSSEIN Obama was driving this country off a cliff. #MAGA


Trump support is so solid, I've never seen anything like this before. They will defend him even if he is hurting them


Yeah, my canary in the mine is a pair of blowhards that I reluctantly accepted as social media "friends" a while ago. A cousin (who also happens to be an attorney, a fact that sends shivers up and down my spine), and a distant in-law (who is retired from a career as a budget analyst in a large school district). In the past 48 hours, their collective pivot to vigorously "liking" and commenting on handcrafted, artisanal news (formerly know as fake news or clickbait) calling for Paul Ryan's head has been pretty breathtaking. Previously, it was unbridled love for the Speaker and his dopey brand of leadership.

And you might think their lack of loyalty might also affect their feverish support of the Trump administration at some point, but I doubt it. Sadly, they are just representative of the many clueless, low information voters who are outspoken in supporting individuals and movements that have absolutely zero interest in ever benefitting their own lives. They have managed to anchor their feet in support of this Trump administration much more carefully than I would have expected. They construct their worldview on a shaky belief that they're always right and anyone who embraces a more inclusive, constructive view of government's role in society is always wrong (and stupid), so you can imagine what it will require to wake them up. I'm sure AH will have something to say about how they view my worldview (see, BOTH sides are the problem!), but I'm not the one obsessively "liking" clickbait obviously written by Eastern European misinformation peddlers proclaiming that I'm not going to believe how Trey Goudy just shutdown Barack Obama once and for all ...

The most recent post from the cousin involved trying to dispel reports that Trump was simply out-of-his-depth trying to understand policy details. The most recent post from the in-law involved a screed against government having anything to do with "our" healthcare, despite the fact that she's on Medicare. So I have little hope of folks like them coming to their senses ... it will just take time for the gene pool to clean itself, I guess.


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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:46 am    Post subject:

the association wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
If there isn't any common ground, all of us, including you, are screwed. This isn't a political zombie apocalypse. These people were in America before 2009. So were you.


Fortunately, a zombie apocalypse isn't necessary in this case. We've all seen enough to recognize the inevitable demographic shift that will light the way, rather than a mass movement of intolerant low information voters coming to their senses.


I can make my own arguments just fine. I don't need your help illustrating them.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:48 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
the association wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
If there isn't any common ground, all of us, including you, are screwed. This isn't a political zombie apocalypse. These people were in America before 2009. So were you.


Fortunately, a zombie apocalypse isn't necessary in this case. We've all seen enough to recognize the inevitable demographic shift that will light the way, rather than a mass movement of intolerant low information voters coming to their senses.


I can make my own arguments just fine. I don't need your help illustrating them.


Maybe in a local workers comp. dispute, but evidently not when it comes to the matter at hand ...
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:45 am    Post subject:

Quote:
White House Chief of Staff Reince Priebus said on Sunday that President Donald Trump's tax plan would include both a border tax and middle class tax cuts that the administration will aim to sell to moderate Democrats as well as Republicans.

Speaking on Fox News Sunday, Priebus scolded hardline conservative Republicans for refusing to get behind the healthcare bill pushed by Trump and House of Representatives leaders, and suggested that the administration may decide to bypass them in future legislative fights.


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-taxes-idUSKBN16X0MM

Interesting. Set aside the question of whether it is feasible to lure votes from moderate Democrats. I can imagine how moderate Democrats would support specific features of a Trump plan, but it's hard to imagine how his overall plan could be sold to more than a handful of the most conservative Democrats. Anyway, the fascinating subtext is that either (1) Trump considers the Freedom Caucus to be a lost cause, or (2) Trump is still trying to bully them.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:50 am    Post subject:

I'm skeptical of anecdotal evidence as proof of how Trump supporters are reacting to all of this. The polls over the next couple weeks should be enlightening.

Quote:
The day after the flaming out of U.S. President Donald Trump's first major legislative initiative, his supporters across America were lashing out - at conservatives, at Democrats, at leaders of his Republican Party in Congress.

Only Trump himself was spared their wrath.

Many voters who elected him appeared largely willing to give him a pass on the collapse of his campaign promise to overhaul the U.S. healthcare system, stressing his short time in office.

"Being a businessman, he'll not take 'no' for an answer," said Tony Nappi, a 71-year-old from Trinity, Florida, one of the many disappointed Republicans on his weekend softball team. "He'll get the job done."

Support for Trump appeared unflagging, from the playing fields of a Republican stronghold in central Florida to the small town diners of North Carolina, the suburbs of Arkansas and the streets of working-class Staten Island in New York City.


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-obamacare-trump-supporters-idUSKBN16X005
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:05 am    Post subject:

Quote:
So on March 7, just hours after Ryan unveiled a plan that confirmed its worst fears, the House Freedom Caucus rushed to devise a counterstrategy. The few dozen true believers knew that pressure from House leaders and President Donald Trump to fall in line would be immense and they were intent on not getting boxed in.

In a conference room in the Rayburn House Office Building, the group met that evening and made a secret pact. No member would commit his vote before consulting with the entire group — not even if Trump himself called to ask for an on-the-spot commitment. The idea, hatched by Freedom Caucus Vice Chairman Rep. Jim Jordan (R-Ohio), was to bind them together in negotiations and ensure the White House or House leaders could not peel them off one by one.

Twenty-eight of the group's roughly three dozen members took the plunge.
Three weeks later, Republican leaders, as many as 25 votes short of passage, were forced to pull their bill from the House floor.


Quote:
Freedom Caucus members told the White House they distrusted Ryan because he doesn’t listen to their concerns. They refused to work with him, going around his back to negotiate with the White House. Little Trump did to woo them worked because the group always wanted more, White House officials and GOP leadership insiders said. They were buoyed by outside groups rooting them on, and didn't fear the White House's fury because the law was unpopular — and, increasingly, so was the president.

"There was this huge, deep distrust," one senior administration official said. "No matter what you offered them, or what you said, someone was unhappy with you. The level of distrust in the House ranks is far more than has been reported."


Quote:
Some caucus members struggled with the strategy, wanting to repeal Obamacare but furious that Ryan’s proposal didn’t go far enough. A few felt obligated to vote “yes” to back Trump, but never switched because they didn’t get the go-ahead from the band of ideological purists.

During a last-minute Friday afternoon plea from Vice President Mike Pence, members including Rep. Andy Harris (R-Md.), Scott DesJarlais (R-Tenn.) and even Meadows were visibly upset, sources said. But if some were starting to crack, they never got the chance. Ryan pulled the bill, and many are now pinning the debacle on the Freedom Caucus.


Quote:
The members were also buttressed by outside forces. Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) repeatedly showed up to Freedom Caucus meetings to remind members that they could take down the bill if they stuck together. Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) met privately with caucus members to explain his issues with the bill — though he stopped short of telling them how to vote, sources said. And Sen. Mike Lee (R-Utah) called at least a dozen conservative House members before the planned vote to urge them to hold firm.

Outside groups also cheered them on. The powerful Heritage Foundation, which has links to the White House, as well as Americans for Prosperity, the Koch brothers network, which has deep ties among members, frequently encouraged Freedom Caucus members to stand their ground. The deep-pocketed groups offered to start a seven-figure war chest to defend members who voted against the plan.

At times, the Freedom Caucus pact showed cracks. At a bill-signing ceremony at the White House, Trump pulled aside Freedom Caucus member Jim Bridenstine and implored him to vote for the bill. The Oklahoma congressman flipped his position that day. Trump also was able to win over Rep. Brian Babin (R-Texas), multiple sources said. And Rep. Trent Franks (R-Ariz.) offered his vote after a phone call with the president.
That wasn’t enough. GOP leaders, who lost just over a dozen centrist and moderate Republicans, needed at least half the group if not more to pass the bill. They weren’t anywhere near that.


Quote:
On Friday afternoon, just hours before the scheduled vote, Freedom Caucus members gathered at the Capitol Hill Club to get their bearings and rally when Vice President Mike Pence walked in unannounced. He pleaded with the group, saying Trump’s entire agenda depended on this vote. Pence told them he knew where they were coming from and begged them to trust him, a stalwart conservative, that this was the best repeal bill they could get.

Half of the group was moved by his personal appeal; the other half, recalcitrant, sources at the meeting said. Meadows, they said, was plainly distressed that he had to choose between the president he admires and the group he leads.

Despite the agonizing, the Freedom Caucus had already slammed the door. Just before that meeting started, Ryan had pulled Meadows off the House floor to check in one last time: Would the caucus back the bill or not? Meadows said “no.”

Ryan then headed to the White House to deliver Trump the bad news.


http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/trump-freedom-caucus-obamacare-repeal-replace-secret-pact-236507
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