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the association
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:13 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
No one can discuss race neutrally.


Says every intolerant individual who just wants to shut-down the discussion ... "it can't be done objectively, so let's just drop it and stick with the status quo" ...

I doubt that's reflective of your intentions, but it happens to be the exact outcome they often seem to seek out ...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:22 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
tox wrote:
I can't tell if you're being ironic or not, given that the word "fragile" is the epitome of conservatives demonizing liberals. "Fragile snowflake" is basically a conservative meme at this point, used as an ad hominem attack on any critic on the left who dares raise any point that the right disagrees with.

By the way, for every Middle American giving the left the finger for having the audacity to call them out on their biases, there is some well-meaning but privileged suburban (bleep) (*points to self*) who, via that messaging, becomes far more aware of the issues that face certain social groups. I'm not even white but I can say I'm far more attuned to the issues that women face, for example, thanks to this movement.


On the first point, you're just missing the context. CL posted something about "white fragility," which apparently is the idea that white people are unable to discuss racial issues neutrally (as opposed to some liberals, who evidently have no problems with self-perceived neutrality).

On the second point, that's great, and I mean that sincerely. However, for most people the reality is different. Early in this thread, we had a discussion of a psychological effect in which the result is exactly the opposite. People become more entrenched, not less entrenched. I don't remember the name. Anyway, we're seeing a lot of that these days.

I have to confront my own attitudes and biases on a regular basis, because I represent employees in discrimination suits. I have clients who are victims of discrimination because they are black, Hispanic, female, or Muslim. At the same time, I also encounter a lot of people who blame all of their own failures on discrimination. (Just last week, I had a potential client who was enraged that he was denied a promotion because he had poor communication skills, or at least that's what I think he was trying to say.) The point is that a lot of people -- Democrats and Republicans -- perceive a lot of the complaints as the latter rather than the former. This is why there are so many memes about political correctness and how people get offended by everything. Yet to some, this reaction itself is evidence of racism, sexism, or the like.


Re: the first point, I ripped it out of context, but that was intentional. It was mostly to highlight the fact that the right does the same thing the you are criticizing the left for doing -- demonize people who disagree with them. They happen to do it more with ad hominem but they do the same thing. The difference is that the left picked a more charged topic -- there's an actual nuanced truth to calling people sexist or racist or whatever. That causes backlash, whereas I just roll my eyes at someone at the right calling me a snowflake.

I agree with you that people get more entrenched when they get negative feedback. It's called the backfire effect. But that doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye to it. In fact, the way you fight against the backfire effect is to simply push harder. At a certain point, IF a person under the backfire effect receives enough countering information, that person will move away from their original opinion. How strong that information needs to be is dependent on how attached they are to their opinion.

From a practical POV, though, the backfire effect is actually irrelevant to the left's messaging strategy. The very people susceptible to the backfire effect are the ones who already hold that opinion. In other words, you're not going to create any sexists by making talking about institutionalized or otherwise latent sexism. You might cause people to be further entrenched in their belief that they are not sexist for thinking that women make bad CEOs because they're too emotional (for example)... but they already held that opinion. OTOH, the people who aren't attached to their conceptions of the world (like me) are going to change their minds if you present a convincing case. That's why I bring my personal experience up. It's not that I'm some bastion of tolerance or reasonableness, but rather that I simply wasn't attached that much to my understanding of sexism in the world, and so the left's messaging strategy worked on me. There's no downside in terms of effecting social change with the identity politics campaign.

Now the other argument, from a coldly political view, is that identity politics, regardless of their merits, are hurting the Democrats in winning elections. I think that's the stance you take. But I'm unconvinced this is actually the case. You can start from the general point that it's possible to engage in identity politics and simultaneously engage in, say, Sandersian economic populism.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:34 pm    Post subject:

the association wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
No one can discuss race neutrally.


Says every intolerant individual who just wants to shut-down the discussion ... "it can't be done objectively, so let's just drop it and stick with the status quo" ...

I doubt that's reflective of your intentions, but it happens to be the exact outcome they often seem to seek out ...


I totally agree, and that's where I was headed. The argument about the coastal elites demonizing the "real americans" is itself a dodge, so that you can't talk about the racist motive. But of course if you don't, it doesn't change it.

It's a neat trick really.
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the association
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:49 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
the association wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
No one can discuss race neutrally.


Says every intolerant individual who just wants to shut-down the discussion ... "it can't be done objectively, so let's just drop it and stick with the status quo" ...

I doubt that's reflective of your intentions, but it happens to be the exact outcome they often seem to seek out ...


I totally agree, and that's where I was headed. The argument about the coastal elites demonizing the "real americans" is itself a dodge, so that you can't talk about the racist motive. But of course if you don't, it doesn't change it.

It's a neat trick really.


When flyover country folk get disgruntled that their transparent schtick is called on the carpet, an angel gets its wings ...

But you gotta acknowledge the balls of these folks: create (or benefit from) a system imbalance that encroaches on the rights of others, exploiting them and serially (bleep) them over in the process ... and then when someone raises their hand to say "Hey, excuse me, you know what? I don't like being (bleep)-over" ... just shush them or castigate them for disrupting class with their raised hand. A simple street example of their strategy works like this: walk up to someone and steal their wallet in broad daylight. If they don't resist, steal their car, too. If they resist, simply say "Hey, hey, hey ... what's your problem?!" ...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:55 pm    Post subject:

What the (bleep) is a "Coastal elite" anyway?

Can black people be coastal elites? I NEED TO KNOW!
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:34 pm    Post subject:

City_Dawg wrote:
What the (bleep) is a "Coastal elite" anyway?


Rubespeak. Coastal = corrupted by the heresy of New York and California, perpetuates the flyover landfills as the real America mythos

elite = elitist = out of touch with traditional American values

"coastal elite" can now be expanded to include anyone educated enough to give any credence to any social theory newer than 1960 or so
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:37 pm    Post subject:

Coastal elite is to real america as yankee was to confederate. It's all there:

The population/representation issue
The economic jealousy
The race issues
"They're taking away our way of life"
"We're superior while they have everything"
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:06 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
kikanga wrote:
CNN anchors are trying their best to stay objective in regards to Bill O'Reilly. But its a tough situation. They will directly benefit from O'Reilly not being on Fox anymore.
But times like this I wonder what the conservative media sphere is talking about. I'm sure the infowars guy and Rush Limbaugh are defending Bill. Implying (if not flat out saying) they don't believe the accusers. And Fox probably isn't focusing on the story.


What makes you believe conservatives will start to watch CNN again?


You have a good point. Fox will lose viewers who are die-hard Bill fans. But practically none of them will start watching CNN. And Fox will probably win back a good portion over time.
If/when there is some must-see TV news story in the future. They'll probably return to Fox despite their anger.


or move with O'Reilly to Trump TV
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:56 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
Re: the first point, I ripped it out of context, but that was intentional. It was mostly to highlight the fact that the right does the same thing the you are criticizing the left for doing -- demonize people who disagree with them. They happen to do it more with ad hominem but they do the same thing. The difference is that the left picked a more charged topic -- there's an actual nuanced truth to calling people sexist or racist or whatever. That causes backlash, whereas I just roll my eyes at someone at the right calling me a snowflake.


I don't know about that. You may feel that demonization by the left is more righteous, but then you're part of the left. People on the right feel that their demonization of you is more righteous. I won't say that the right and the left are mirror images, because they aren't. However, the parallels are striking.

tox wrote:
I agree with you that people get more entrenched when they get negative feedback. It's called the backfire effect. But that doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye to it. In fact, the way you fight against the backfire effect is to simply push harder. At a certain point, IF a person under the backfire effect receives enough countering information, that person will move away from their original opinion. How strong that information needs to be is dependent on how attached they are to their opinion.


This presumes that you have someone in a laboratory and can control the flow of information to them. In the real world, there is always going to be supporting information available.

This also presumes that you are right about everything. Even moderates like me roll our eyes at some of the stuff that comes from the left, especially the culture of victimization.

tox wrote:
From a practical POV, though, the backfire effect is actually irrelevant to the left's messaging strategy. The very people susceptible to the backfire effect are the ones who already hold that opinion. In other words, you're not going to create any sexists by making talking about institutionalized or otherwise latent sexism. You might cause people to be further entrenched in their belief that they are not sexist for thinking that women make bad CEOs because they're too emotional (for example)... but they already held that opinion. OTOH, the people who aren't attached to their conceptions of the world (like me) are going to change their minds if you present a convincing case. That's why I bring my personal experience up. It's not that I'm some bastion of tolerance or reasonableness, but rather that I simply wasn't attached that much to my understanding of sexism in the world, and so the left's messaging strategy worked on me. There's no downside in terms of effecting social change with the identity politics campaign.


This presumes that there are large numbers of open minded people in our society. My impression is to the contrary.

tox wrote:
Now the other argument, from a coldly political view, is that identity politics, regardless of their merits, are hurting the Democrats in winning elections. I think that's the stance you take. But I'm unconvinced this is actually the case. You can start from the general point that it's possible to engage in identity politics and simultaneously engage in, say, Sandersian economic populism.


Given that the GOP controls all three branches of the federal government and about two-thirds of state governments, it would not seem that identity politics are working for the Democrats. In a way, it is actually poisonous. The left just assumes that blacks, Hispanics, and women will vote for the Democrats.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:56 am    Post subject:

It's interesting that middle america in their zeal to give the middle finger to "coastal elites" went ahead and elected president a literal coastal elite, putting in power his entire coastal elite family (Princess Ivanka and Prince Kushner, Duke of New York). Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:50 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:


Given that the GOP controls all three branches of the federal government and about two-thirds of state governments, it would not seem that identity politics are working for the Democrats. In a way, it is actually poisonous. The left just assumes that blacks, Hispanics, and women will vote for the Democrats.


I'm not sure it's not working for Democrats. I don't think Dems just do identity politics, they push other agendas too (some people on left don't agree with). Dems does get majority supports from blacks, hispanics, asians, women and young people. I think the GOP victories had a lot to do with strategy of voting (they win more states where you get more electoral vote per individual votes, they're better at gerrymandering compare to dems). I guess it depends on how you define 'working for democrats'... politically they failed at the voting game but they succeed at expanding their base
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:24 am    Post subject:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:27 am    Post subject:

https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/7747947/Trump_support.png

Guess race politics means acknowledging the existence of racism. How sad.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:41 am    Post subject:

trmiv wrote:
It's interesting that middle america in their zeal to give the middle finger to "coastal elites" went ahead and elected president a literal coastal elite, putting in power his entire coastal elite family (Princess Ivanka and Prince Kushner, Duke of New York). Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.


They're passionate, though not necessarily bright. #Strong&Wrong Most of these folks are mad, angry, and depressed. They're not doing as well as their parents and they want to be validated in who they blame for it (cause they certainly don't blame themselves). Cheetoh Dust rode in on his coastal elitist white horse and told them it was okay to blame those 'groups' that they blame for their lives not being what they think they should be.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:55 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/7747947/Trump_support.png

Guess race politics means acknowledging the existence of racism. How sad.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:30 am    Post subject:

"Identity politics" sure as (bleep) seem to be working out well for republicans as far as winning elections goes. Voter ID shenanigans, purging of voting lists, gerrymandering, dog whistling, scary muslim banning, etc. All blatant "identity politics." All helping put republicans in power (where they then (bleep) the bed because they suck at actual policy and governing) But hey it's the people calling them out for their (bleep) that are the REAL problem, amirite?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:57 am    Post subject:

trmiv wrote:
"Identity politics" sure as (bleep) seem to be working out well for republicans as far as winning elections goes. Voter ID shenanigans, purging of voting lists, gerrymandering, dog whistling, scary muslim banning, etc. All blatant "identity politics." All helping put republicans in power (where they then (bleep) the bed because they suck at actual policy and governing) But hey it's the people calling them out for their (bleep) that are the REAL problem, amirite?


That about sums it up (except for Republicans are now also in bed with the Russians and helped sway/steal the election).
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:11 am    Post subject:

This is what the low-class, orange-trash-in-chief let happen outside the oval office yesterday:

Link
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:22 am    Post subject:

More kleptocracy and nepotism in action:

Quote:
David Frum‏Verified @davidfrum

But here’s a clue to the weirdness: by leaving vacant Senate-confirmed offices, the personal power of the presidential family is enhanced.

David Frum Retweeted Bloomberg

Quote:
BloombergVerified account @business
Ivanka Trump will make an official visit to Germany next week https://bloom.bg/2pjrsxI

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:22 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
This is what the low-class, orange-trash-in-chief let happen outside the oval office yesterday:

Link


Perfectly explains why they're keeping the WH visitors log a secret.


Last edited by bertrome on Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:26 am    Post subject:

I think they're leaving a lot of offices open because they never planned to win and are still trying to figure out who the hell to nominate for these positions.

That, and the typical Norquist "starve the beast" ...
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:35 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/7747947/Trump_support.png

Guess race politics means acknowledging the existence of racism. How sad.


This appears to be the same "symbolic racism indicator" study that we've already been discussing. It's still BS, not matter how many times you present it.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:36 am    Post subject:

Leaked docs show GOP is selling monthly meetings with House leadership staff for just $5,000

It's not just Trump & his offspring selling access...
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:42 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
I'm not sure it's not working for Democrats. I don't think Dems just do identity politics, they push other agendas too (some people on left don't agree with). Dems does get majority supports from blacks, hispanics, asians, women and young people. I think the GOP victories had a lot to do with strategy of voting (they win more states where you get more electoral vote per individual votes, they're better at gerrymandering compare to dems). I guess it depends on how you define 'working for democrats'... politically they failed at the voting game but they succeed at expanding their base


The anti-Trump backlash will probably lead to some positive results in the short run, but I don't know that the Dems have expanded their base in the long run. Young people don't stay young forever. The current generation of retirees were hippies in the sixties. Heck, my brother was a pot smoking anti-war protester who voted for McGovern. Now he follows Milo on Facebook.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:58 am    Post subject:

trmiv wrote:
"Identity politics" sure as (bleep) seem to be working out well for republicans as far as winning elections goes. Voter ID shenanigans, purging of voting lists, gerrymandering, dog whistling, scary muslim banning, etc. All blatant "identity politics." All helping put republicans in power (where they then (bleep) the bed because they suck at actual policy and governing) But hey it's the people calling them out for their (bleep) that are the REAL problem, amirite?


Again, straw man alert. You can call them out for it all you want. Knock yourself out. However, the Democratic Party has to do better than that. Elizabeth Warren was on TRMS last night talking about the path forward for progressives. Other than one reference to Trump capitalizing on racist sentiments in the campaign, she didn't talk about identity politics. She talked about the middle class, trickle down economics, education, health care, and crony capitalism (especially as applied to the Cabinet). You know, the stuff that really hits home with middle America.

I am not a big fan of Warren, but it encourages me to see that there are forces within the Democratic Party pushing toward a realistic path forward for the party.
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