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paymonM
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 Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | slavavov wrote: | It's really disgusting how much these pro-Hamas, err, pro-Palestinian protestors are drinking the Kool-Aid and taking this to an extreme over something they didn't seem to care about until Hamas first attacked Israel in October. Many, if not most, of these protestors don't have a single Palestinian or Arab in their families.
I've seen video of many of these protestors wearing masks, not because of COVID, but because they don't want to be identified. That's a clear sign they don't want to protest peacefully -- they instead want to stir s*** up. |
Gaza wasn't reduced to rubble before October.
These protests remind me of the Vietnam protests.
College kids are normally anti-war. And many (like the USC valedictorian) take courses that document genocides from the past. It makes sense.
It shows empathy to protest something even if it doesn't affect you or your family.
People have been doxxed and their family members have been threatened online. I'm not surprised people are masked up on both sides. The vast majority of people. Masked or not. Pro-Palestine or Pro-Israel. Are non-violent. But of course there are agitators. |
I get that the "genocide" in Gaza has been bad, and I'm also against it. But these protesters are too obsessed with it. Again, the vast majority of them are white and have nothing to do with what's happening out there. Even worse, they will never hold Hamas or Iran accountable for trying to carry out their own genocide against innocent Jews. |
I don't think you "get it" since you decided to put the word "genocide" within quotes. If you have to debate inside your brain whether this is Genocide or not, then you really don't "get it". If you think the protestors are "too obsessed" with genocide then perhaps you don't understand what genocide means.
These students are risking their future by peacefully protesting what they believe in. They have nothing to gain. Many are Jewish. Some other member here made a dumb comment about the protestors wearing masks .... They wear masks because they fear reprisal. Reprisal from the University, from the bought out filthy politicians like Michael Lawler, and corporations.
They face police beating, expulsion, attacks from pro zionist criminals like the ones you saw in UCLA who attacked a 70 year old woman, and yet they frimly stand behind what they believe in. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| strong9 wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | slavavov wrote: | ^^ I have two or three FB friends who have been on this pro-Palestinian bandwagon for a while, which led to me having a debate on FB with someone who is pro-Palestinian. This guy spouted off tons of details (it seemed like he maybe spends most of his free time reading about this issue), a lot of what he said about it is probably true, the rest I'm not sure about. But when I told him both sides have messed up and that Hamas has been just as bad and guilty as the Israeli govt, he refused to hold Hamas accountable, and he even defended Hamas.
He basically claimed that Israeli has been brutally mistreating people in Gaza for 75 years (not sure if that's true), and that because of that, Palestinians have a right to fight back, and therefore he felt Hamas hurting and killing Jews was justified. |
He's essentially correct in that one regard. As has been mentioned in this thread many times on this issue, the conflict is multifaceted and goes back 3/4s of a century; which is why some of the criticism of Biden for not simply snapping his fingers and making it go away by shutting off aid for Israel has been met with push back. If any of it were as simple as that tgere wouldn't have been almost eight decades of conflict in the region.
But back to your friend's comments. Israeli mistreatment of Palestinians goes back many decades; Hamas, and other groups that predated them (PLO etc.) didn't come to fruition in a vacuum. They formed as a result of occupation and mistreatment at the hands of the Israeli government. There's a long history of unjustified military action by the IDF and of Israeli settlers engaging in their own form of terrorism against Palestinians, and they use the same rational that Hamas et al have used: that it is in response to violence committed against them.
While I am usually not someone who points fingers at "both sides" in most conflicts, because typically there is an aggressor and an entity that is responding to the aggression they didn't instigate, this one region of conflict where the violence and tension is being fueled by actions by particular factions of both the larger entities involved. Which is why it is important to remember that while Hamas is a horrible and brutal terrorist organization, they don't represent what all Palestinians are about, and there is no justification for acts like those that occurred on October 7th. Similarly, while the IDF's unjustifiable brutality against innocent Palestinian civilians should be condemned, and the current Israeli administration is clearly guilty of war crimes, the people of Israel are not wholly responsible for that. And that is the crux of why the region has been so embroiled on violent turmoil since before most of us were born: the cycle of violence that thrives on, "they did this to us, so I am justified in doing this to them". And that is where your friend is incorrect. |
All well and good DMR and correct but it isn't that simple. You have a marginalized people without a state on one side and a regional power that has unequivocal support from world powers on the other side. With that power dynamic, you will never get Palestinians to act in any other manner. It will never happen. What is the alternative for them? |
There aren't many, and I totally sympathize with that plight. But forming terrorist organizations to murder innocent Israeli civilians isn't it; unless they want the cycle of violence to continue. Just like the IDF slaughtering innocent Palestinians isn't an acceptable alternative for a response to 10/7 by Israel.
The bolded is where the problem lies; there are small factions within both who want that cycle to continue to serve their own aims: that being the extermination of the other.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
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And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| paymonM wrote: | | Some other member here made a dumb comment about the protestors wearing masks .... They wear masks because they fear reprisal. |
Exactly. Masks serve dual purposes. Some are worn for deception, and some are worn for protection.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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slavavov
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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@kikanga @DaMuleRules @strong9 I think it's important to remember the difference between a nation and its ideals, versus how it actually functions.
Israel is supposed to be (from what I understand) a democracy that doesn't have an official religion, even though it is also supposed to be an eternal homeland for Jews. Therefore, i think it is wrong for anyone to say Israel shouldn't exist and that it doesn't have the right to defend itself, which is what some of these pro-Palestinian protestors are saying.
Instead, we should be criticizing Netanyahu and the rest of its so-called leadership for mistreating non-Jews. Imo it needs a left-wing or moderate PM and Knesset that will reach out to Arabs and Palestinians living there and guarantee them equal rights and equal treatment.
People say Israel has been mistreating people in Gaza for its entire existence. Is that representative of Israel's ideals as a whole? Even if it is, it can change.
For example, our country was founded on the ideals of equal justice under law and all people are created equal. But we haven't lived up to that because of how poorly we have treated people who aren't straight white men. But we have made major progress, haven't we? So despite the backlash from conservatives and libertarians, we're gradually becoming a multicultural society while retaining enough of our "white" heritage.
I think Israel can do the same, if not better, and I hope both us and Israel will keep doing better in that department.
On the other hand, while Hamas was founded in response to bad things the Israeli govt did, Hamas' ideal and goal is to ethnically cleanse that region and the entire world of Jews, and that is also apparently Iran's goal.
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strong9
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | strong9 wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | slavavov wrote: | ^^ I have two or three FB friends who have been on this pro-Palestinian bandwagon for a while, which led to me having a debate on FB with someone who is pro-Palestinian. This guy spouted off tons of details (it seemed like he maybe spends most of his free time reading about this issue), a lot of what he said about it is probably true, the rest I'm not sure about. But when I told him both sides have messed up and that Hamas has been just as bad and guilty as the Israeli govt, he refused to hold Hamas accountable, and he even defended Hamas.
He basically claimed that Israeli has been brutally mistreating people in Gaza for 75 years (not sure if that's true), and that because of that, Palestinians have a right to fight back, and therefore he felt Hamas hurting and killing Jews was justified. |
He's essentially correct in that one regard. As has been mentioned in this thread many times on this issue, the conflict is multifaceted and goes back 3/4s of a century; which is why some of the criticism of Biden for not simply snapping his fingers and making it go away by shutting off aid for Israel has been met with push back. If any of it were as simple as that tgere wouldn't have been almost eight decades of conflict in the region.
But back to your friend's comments. Israeli mistreatment of Palestinians goes back many decades; Hamas, and other groups that predated them (PLO etc.) didn't come to fruition in a vacuum. They formed as a result of occupation and mistreatment at the hands of the Israeli government. There's a long history of unjustified military action by the IDF and of Israeli settlers engaging in their own form of terrorism against Palestinians, and they use the same rational that Hamas et al have used: that it is in response to violence committed against them.
While I am usually not someone who points fingers at "both sides" in most conflicts, because typically there is an aggressor and an entity that is responding to the aggression they didn't instigate, this one region of conflict where the violence and tension is being fueled by actions by particular factions of both the larger entities involved. Which is why it is important to remember that while Hamas is a horrible and brutal terrorist organization, they don't represent what all Palestinians are about, and there is no justification for acts like those that occurred on October 7th. Similarly, while the IDF's unjustifiable brutality against innocent Palestinian civilians should be condemned, and the current Israeli administration is clearly guilty of war crimes, the people of Israel are not wholly responsible for that. And that is the crux of why the region has been so embroiled on violent turmoil since before most of us were born: the cycle of violence that thrives on, "they did this to us, so I am justified in doing this to them". And that is where your friend is incorrect. |
All well and good DMR and correct but it isn't that simple. You have a marginalized people without a state on one side and a regional power that has unequivocal support from world powers on the other side. With that power dynamic, you will never get Palestinians to act in any other manner. It will never happen. What is the alternative for them? |
There aren't many, and I totally sympathize with that plight. But forming terrorist organizations to murder innocent Israeli civilians isn't it; unless they want the cycle of violence to continue. Just like the IDF slaughtering innocent Palestinians isn't an acceptable alternative for a response to 10/7 by Israel.
The bolded is where the problem lies; there are small factions within both who want that cycle to continue to serve their own aims: that being the extermination of the other. |
Oh on that I agree whole heartedly. That has no place but short of that, I don't think anything is off the table for them, including property damage, etc. They can't formally decale war so they have no other choice.
I also agree about the small factions. This is Hamas' and the Israeli hardliners' wet dream. |
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anth2000
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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My opinion, only a handful of protestors have a clue why they are protestors.
The rest of the people showing up, causing violence are just clueless, numbtard troublemakers.
That’s my belief.
It’s the flavor of the week, that’s why all these schools are joining in.
I mean, that’s obvious.
Troublemakers, coupled with idiots.
Few “real” protestors are involved, in my opinion. |
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Wilt
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | All well and good DMR and correct but it isn't that simple. You have a marginalized people without a state on one side and a regional power that has unequivocal support from world powers on the other side. With that power dynamic, you will never get Palestinians to act in any other manner. It will never happen. What is the alternative for them? |
Non-violence proved to be crucial in India, South Africa, and even here in the United States to end the plight of historically oppressed peoples. Hamas is not the way for them to win freedom, especially since Hamas is not interested in ending the occupation nor in creating a positive future for Palestinians.
When Hamas attacked in Oct, they knew that the response would be catastrophic for the Palestinians. And Israel's government, being a bunch of authoritarian war mongers, are prolonging it for their own political benefits. So the winners are Hamas and Netanyahu, and the losers are people that live there, disproportionately the Palestinians.
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strong9
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: | @kikanga @DaMuleRules @strong9 I think it's important to remember the difference between a nation and its ideals, versus how it actually functions.
Israel is supposed to be (from what I understand) a democracy that doesn't have an official religion, even though it is also supposed to be an eternal homeland for Jews. Therefore, i think it is wrong for anyone to say Israel shouldn't exist and that it doesn't have the right to defend itself, which is what some of these pro-Palestinian protestors are saying.
Instead, we should be criticizing Netanyahu and the rest of its so-called leadership for mistreating non-Jews. Imo it needs a left-wing or moderate PM and Knesset that will reach out to Arabs and Palestinians living there and guarantee them equal rights and equal treatment.
People say Israel has been mistreating people in Gaza for its entire existence. Is that representative of Israel's ideals as a whole? Even if it is, it can change.
For example, our country was founded on the ideals of equal justice under law and all people are created equal. But we haven't lived up to that because of how poorly we have treated people who aren't straight white men. But we have made major progress, haven't we? So despite the backlash from conservatives and libertarians, we're gradually becoming a multicultural society while retaining enough of our "white" heritage.
I think Israel can do the same, if not better, and I hope both us and Israel will keep doing better in that department.
On the other hand, while Hamas was founded in response to bad things the Israeli govt did, Hamas' ideal and goal is to ethnically cleanse that region and the entire world of Jews, and that is also apparently Iran's goal. |
I hear you man, but at some point a country becomes the sum of its leaders, not its ideals. Israel was formed for those lofty ideals but from founding it refused to recognize Palestenians - Golda Meir comes to mind. This is not a Netanyahu-Likud phenomenon.
When those same leaders are extolled, then we have a problem. No one's ideals should come at the expense of another - you provide a few brilliant examples. Sin Fein is another.
I will never criticize America's ideals but I will forever criticize its history and recognize it has failed to live up to its lofty ideals, or worse fulfilled its ideals at the expense of others. Israel is no different than us. |
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strong9
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Wilt wrote: | | Quote: | | All well and good DMR and correct but it isn't that simple. You have a marginalized people without a state on one side and a regional power that has unequivocal support from world powers on the other side. With that power dynamic, you will never get Palestinians to act in any other manner. It will never happen. What is the alternative for them? |
Non-violence proved to be crucial in India, South Africa, and even here in the United States to end the plight of historically oppressed peoples. Hamas is not the way for them to win freedom, especially since Hamas is not interested in ending the occupation nor in creating a positive future for Palestinians.
When Hamas attacked in Oct, they knew that the response would be catastrophic for the Palestinians. And Israel's government, being a bunch of authoritarian war mongers, are prolonging it for their own political benefits. So the winners are Hamas and Netanyahu, and the losers are people that live there, disproportionately the Palestinians. |
As an Indian, that's a simplistic explanation of India but we can discuss that another time. England also didn't have France or another power supplying them weapons and giving them impunity to annex land, etc. And when they left, they left. They didn't keep parts of India.
South Africa was subject to boycott. You truly see the west doing that to Israel? See also the Ottomans and countless other examples where peace was not true peace and freedom.
As for the US, tell that to Native Americans - we live on their land. If Palestinians peacefully protest and get reservations in the West Bank with casinos for Israelis to enjoy not sure they will think that is freedom. And not sure they trust the rest of the world or Israel to give them anything else.
The rest of your post, 100% agree. Peace my man. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Wilt wrote: |
When Hamas attacked in Oct, they knew that the response would be catastrophic for the Palestinians. And Israel's government, being a bunch of authoritarian war mongers, are prolonging it for their own political benefits. So the winners are Hamas and Netanyahu, and the losers are people that live there, disproportionately the Palestinians. |
Leave it to the college history professor to sum it up far better than I ever could.  
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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slavavov
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| strong9 wrote: |
I hear you man, but at some point a country becomes the sum of its leaders, not its ideals. Israel was formed for those lofty ideals but from founding it refused to recognize Palestenians - Golda Meir comes to mind. This is not a Netanyahu-Likud phenomenon.
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I don't disagree with this, but if a country becomes the sum of its leaders and not its ideals, it can change. An example is Germany and how it has moved away from its Nazi era. To a certain extent, our country is another example -- we moved past slavery and making women second-class citizens, as well as widespread, blatant antisemitism in the early and mid 20th century.
Question: We know how terribly the Israeli govt has treated Palestinians in Gaza since October. Has it always treated Palestinians that badly, i.e. denying them basic needs like food, water, energy and medical care? if so, has it been constant since day one, or has it only happened in response to attacks from terrorists like Hamas?
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: | | strong9 wrote: |
I hear you man, but at some point a country becomes the sum of its leaders, not its ideals. Israel was formed for those lofty ideals but from founding it refused to recognize Palestenians - Golda Meir comes to mind. This is not a Netanyahu-Likud phenomenon.
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I don't disagree with this, but if a country becomes the sum of its leaders and not its ideals, it can change. An example is Germany and how it has moved away from its Nazi era. To a certain extent, our country is another example -- we moved past slavery and making women second-class citizens, as well as widespread, blatant antisemitism in the early and mid 20th century.
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I don't know if you noticed this, but a significant segment of our country's leaders are working vigorously to reverse that trend, despite the ideals the country was founded upon.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Ya'll are debating the messiest part of this.
I can't talk about it without sounding like a schizophrenic or someone "talking out of both sides of my mouth".
At the top of the list. It always has to be.
1) Don't kill or harm innocent civilians. Its unjustifiable. It is both legally and morally improper to kill civilians. Oct. 7th is an unjustifiable atrocity. Hamas did that. And they deserve 100% of the blame for what happened.
Now here's the part where it sounds like I'm justifying it. Even though I just said it is unjustifiable.
How did we get to Oct. 7th?
2) The majority of Israelis view Gazans as less than. And they support policy to that effect. Netanyahu's collective punishment on Gaza is what is buoying his popularity in Israel (and keeping him in office and out of jail). It's a lie to try and pretend if Bibi is gone, it fixes this on Israel's side. Someone just as bad (if not worse) will be elected by the Israeli people. The majority of Israel and Israeli Jews support punishing all of Gaza. The same way the majority of Americans supported the war in Iraq after 9/11.
3) The Gazan populace for decades tried peaceful forms of resistance. And they weren't rewarded for it. They kept losing more and more ground in terms of self-determination, liberty, rights, access to jobs and basic human resources. Not to mention lives. For example, Gaza's Great March of Return.
4) If you are an everyday Gazan. You would have a more positive experience with Hamas than Israel. Hamas may have given you your paychecks if your were a government funded health care worker, policeman, or other worker. You don't experience Hamas shooting rockets at Israel. But you do experience Hamas giving you aid, if Israel's response hurts you or someone you care about.
*The bolded is part of why Bibi feels justified leveling blocks on domestic housing. Since some people have "Hamas affiliations".
The best way I could put it is.
Hamas slaughtering Israeli citizens on Oct. 7th was entirely foreseeable and predictable. It's not because some "natural violent tendencies among Arabs/Palestinians/Muslims". It's because the conditions of Gaza. When people live in conditions with such severe violence and deprivation. Oct. 7th isn't surprising. Similar to Nat Turner's slave rebellion.
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slavavov
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | slavavov wrote: | | strong9 wrote: |
I hear you man, but at some point a country becomes the sum of its leaders, not its ideals. Israel was formed for those lofty ideals but from founding it refused to recognize Palestenians - Golda Meir comes to mind. This is not a Netanyahu-Likud phenomenon.
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I don't disagree with this, but if a country becomes the sum of its leaders and not its ideals, it can change. An example is Germany and how it has moved away from its Nazi era. To a certain extent, our country is another example -- we moved past slavery and making women second-class citizens, as well as widespread, blatant antisemitism in the early and mid 20th century.
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I don't know if you noticed this, but a significant segment of our country's leaders are working vigorously to reverse that trend, despite the ideals the country was founded upon. |
lol of course I've noticed that, but in general, we have been moving past being a white patriarchal society. At least we don't have slavery anymore, and although women's rights are being rolled back, at least they can still vote and have careers, which they couldn't do at one point in history.
Yes, a significant segment of our country's leaders want to move us backwards, just as both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have leaders moving their respective sides backwards.
My point was simply that a country can change from being the sum of bad leaders to being a good example to follow.
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | slavavov wrote: | | strong9 wrote: |
I hear you man, but at some point a country becomes the sum of its leaders, not its ideals. Israel was formed for those lofty ideals but from founding it refused to recognize Palestenians - Golda Meir comes to mind. This is not a Netanyahu-Likud phenomenon.
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I don't disagree with this, but if a country becomes the sum of its leaders and not its ideals, it can change. An example is Germany and how it has moved away from its Nazi era. To a certain extent, our country is another example -- we moved past slavery and making women second-class citizens, as well as widespread, blatant antisemitism in the early and mid 20th century.
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I don't know if you noticed this, but a significant segment of our country's leaders are working vigorously to reverse that trend, despite the ideals the country was founded upon. |
lol of course I've noticed that, but in general, we have been moving past being a white patriarchal society. At least we don't have slavery anymore, and although women's rights are being rolled back, at least they can still vote and have careers, which they couldn't do at one point in history.
Yes, a significant segment of our country's leaders want to move us backwards, just as both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have leaders moving their respective sides backwards.
My point was simply that a country can change from being the sum of bad leaders to being a good example to follow. |
And my point is that the more things change, the more they stay the same. Sure this country has progressed, but there's a reason that's been met with a push towards regression . . . look at Arizona, they just regressed 160 years! 
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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slavavov
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | slavavov wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | slavavov wrote: | | strong9 wrote: |
I hear you man, but at some point a country becomes the sum of its leaders, not its ideals. Israel was formed for those lofty ideals but from founding it refused to recognize Palestenians - Golda Meir comes to mind. This is not a Netanyahu-Likud phenomenon.
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I don't disagree with this, but if a country becomes the sum of its leaders and not its ideals, it can change. An example is Germany and how it has moved away from its Nazi era. To a certain extent, our country is another example -- we moved past slavery and making women second-class citizens, as well as widespread, blatant antisemitism in the early and mid 20th century.
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I don't know if you noticed this, but a significant segment of our country's leaders are working vigorously to reverse that trend, despite the ideals the country was founded upon. |
lol of course I've noticed that, but in general, we have been moving past being a white patriarchal society. At least we don't have slavery anymore, and although women's rights are being rolled back, at least they can still vote and have careers, which they couldn't do at one point in history.
Yes, a significant segment of our country's leaders want to move us backwards, just as both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have leaders moving their respective sides backwards.
My point was simply that a country can change from being the sum of bad leaders to being a good example to follow. |
And my point is that the more things change, the more they stay the same. Sure this country has progressed, but there's a reason that's been met with a push towards regression . . . look at Arizona, they just regressed 160 years! |
That's an example of how and why leadership is so so important in politics, as it is in sports, business, etc.
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paymonM
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: | @kikanga @DaMuleRules @strong9 I think it's important to remember the difference between a nation and its ideals, versus how it actually functions.
Israel is supposed to be (from what I understand) a democracy that doesn't have an official religion, even though it is also supposed to be an eternal homeland for Jews. Therefore, i think it is wrong for anyone to say Israel shouldn't exist and that it doesn't have the right to defend itself, which is what some of these pro-Palestinian protestors are saying.
Instead, we should be criticizing Netanyahu and the rest of its so-called leadership for mistreating non-Jews. Imo it needs a left-wing or moderate PM and Knesset that will reach out to Arabs and Palestinians living there and guarantee them equal rights and equal treatment.
People say Israel has been mistreating people in Gaza for its entire existence. Is that representative of Israel's ideals as a whole? Even if it is, it can change.
For example, our country was founded on the ideals of equal justice under law and all people are created equal. But we haven't lived up to that because of how poorly we have treated people who aren't straight white men. But we have made major progress, haven't we? So despite the backlash from conservatives and libertarians, we're gradually becoming a multicultural society while retaining enough of our "white" heritage.
I think Israel can do the same, if not better, and I hope both us and Israel will keep doing better in that department.
On the other hand, while Hamas was founded in response to bad things the Israeli govt did, Hamas' ideal and goal is to ethnically cleanse that region and the entire world of Jews, and that is also apparently Iran's goal. |
once again, you are showing that you do not have a clear understanding of what is happening in the region. This was back in 2018:
"JERUSALEM — Israel passed a controversial new “nation-state law” last week that’s sparking both celebration and fierce debate over the very nature of Israel itself.
The law does three big things:
It states that “the right to exercise national self-determination” in Israel is “unique to the Jewish people.”
It establishes Hebrew as Israel’s official language, and downgrades Arabic — a language widely spoken by Arab Israelis — to a “special status.”
It establishes “Jewish settlement as a national value” and mandates that the state “will labor to encourage and promote its establishment and development.”"
https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-nation-state-law-bill-explained-apartheid-netanyahu-democracy
This is from Netanyahu back in 2018 from the Times of Israel:
“We enshrined in law the basic principle of our existence,” said Netanyahu. “Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people, which respects the individual rights of all its citizens. This is our state — the Jewish state. In recent years there have been some who have attempted to put this in doubt, to undercut the core of our being. Today we made it law: This is our nation, language and flag.”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-hails-jewish-state-law-as-a-pivotal-moment-in-zionist-history/ |
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slavavov
Star Player
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 8464
Location: Santa Monica
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| paymonM wrote: | | slavavov wrote: | @kikanga @DaMuleRules @strong9 I think it's important to remember the difference between a nation and its ideals, versus how it actually functions.
Israel is supposed to be (from what I understand) a democracy that doesn't have an official religion, even though it is also supposed to be an eternal homeland for Jews. Therefore, i think it is wrong for anyone to say Israel shouldn't exist and that it doesn't have the right to defend itself, which is what some of these pro-Palestinian protestors are saying.
Instead, we should be criticizing Netanyahu and the rest of its so-called leadership for mistreating non-Jews. Imo it needs a left-wing or moderate PM and Knesset that will reach out to Arabs and Palestinians living there and guarantee them equal rights and equal treatment.
People say Israel has been mistreating people in Gaza for its entire existence. Is that representative of Israel's ideals as a whole? Even if it is, it can change.
For example, our country was founded on the ideals of equal justice under law and all people are created equal. But we haven't lived up to that because of how poorly we have treated people who aren't straight white men. But we have made major progress, haven't we? So despite the backlash from conservatives and libertarians, we're gradually becoming a multicultural society while retaining enough of our "white" heritage.
I think Israel can do the same, if not better, and I hope both us and Israel will keep doing better in that department.
On the other hand, while Hamas was founded in response to bad things the Israeli govt did, Hamas' ideal and goal is to ethnically cleanse that region and the entire world of Jews, and that is also apparently Iran's goal. |
once again, you are showing that you do not have a clear understanding of what is happening in the region. This was back in 2018:
"JERUSALEM — Israel passed a controversial new “nation-state law” last week that’s sparking both celebration and fierce debate over the very nature of Israel itself.
The law does three big things:
It states that “the right to exercise national self-determination” in Israel is “unique to the Jewish people.”
It establishes Hebrew as Israel’s official language, and downgrades Arabic — a language widely spoken by Arab Israelis — to a “special status.”
It establishes “Jewish settlement as a national value” and mandates that the state “will labor to encourage and promote its establishment and development.”"
https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-nation-state-law-bill-explained-apartheid-netanyahu-democracy
This is from Netanyahu back in 2018 from the Times of Israel:
“We enshrined in law the basic principle of our existence,” said Netanyahu. “Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people, which respects the individual rights of all its citizens. This is our state — the Jewish state. In recent years there have been some who have attempted to put this in doubt, to undercut the core of our being. Today we made it law: This is our nation, language and flag.”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-hails-jewish-state-law-as-a-pivotal-moment-in-zionist-history/ |
I'm sure there's a way Israel can be a nation-state for the Jewish people while still treating non-Jews equally well.
Unfortunately for them, Netanyahu doesn't want to do that. But maybe some other PM would be more than willing to.
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C M B
Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Posts: 19880
Location: Prarie & Manchester, high above the western sideline
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| paymonM wrote: | | slavavov wrote: | @kikanga @DaMuleRules @strong9 I think it's important to remember the difference between a nation and its ideals, versus how it actually functions.
Israel is supposed to be (from what I understand) a democracy that doesn't have an official religion, even though it is also supposed to be an eternal homeland for Jews. Therefore, i think it is wrong for anyone to say Israel shouldn't exist and that it doesn't have the right to defend itself, which is what some of these pro-Palestinian protestors are saying.
Instead, we should be criticizing Netanyahu and the rest of its so-called leadership for mistreating non-Jews. Imo it needs a left-wing or moderate PM and Knesset that will reach out to Arabs and Palestinians living there and guarantee them equal rights and equal treatment.
People say Israel has been mistreating people in Gaza for its entire existence. Is that representative of Israel's ideals as a whole? Even if it is, it can change.
For example, our country was founded on the ideals of equal justice under law and all people are created equal. But we haven't lived up to that because of how poorly we have treated people who aren't straight white men. But we have made major progress, haven't we? So despite the backlash from conservatives and libertarians, we're gradually becoming a multicultural society while retaining enough of our "white" heritage.
I think Israel can do the same, if not better, and I hope both us and Israel will keep doing better in that department.
On the other hand, while Hamas was founded in response to bad things the Israeli govt did, Hamas' ideal and goal is to ethnically cleanse that region and the entire world of Jews, and that is also apparently Iran's goal. |
once again, you are showing that you do not have a clear understanding of what is happening in the region. This was back in 2018:
"JERUSALEM — Israel passed a controversial new “nation-state law” last week that’s sparking both celebration and fierce debate over the very nature of Israel itself.
The law does three big things:
It states that “the right to exercise national self-determination” in Israel is “unique to the Jewish people.”
It establishes Hebrew as Israel’s official language, and downgrades Arabic — a language widely spoken by Arab Israelis — to a “special status.”
It establishes “Jewish settlement as a national value” and mandates that the state “will labor to encourage and promote its establishment and development.”"
https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-nation-state-law-bill-explained-apartheid-netanyahu-democracy
This is from Netanyahu back in 2018 from the Times of Israel:
“We enshrined in law the basic principle of our existence,” said Netanyahu. “Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people, which respects the individual rights of all its citizens. This is our state — the Jewish state. In recent years there have been some who have attempted to put this in doubt, to undercut the core of our being. Today we made it law: This is our nation, language and flag.”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-hails-jewish-state-law-as-a-pivotal-moment-in-zionist-history/ |
now do Palestine's stance on Jews (the western world, gays, religious freedom, womens' rights, etc)
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| Sister Golden Hair wrote: | LAMAR ODOM is an anagram for ... DOOM ALARM
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lakersken80
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Aug 2009
Posts: 38899
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Dispersal order at UCLA encampment. Doesn't look like anybody has left. |
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lakersken80
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Joined: 12 Aug 2009
Posts: 38899
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| Posted: Thu May 02, 2024 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| Partys over at the UCLA encampment. |
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lakersken80
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Aug 2009
Posts: 38899
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| Posted: Thu May 02, 2024 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| Guys getting taken to the paddy wagon don't look like UCLA students. |
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lakersken80
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Joined: 12 Aug 2009
Posts: 38899
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| Posted: Thu May 02, 2024 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| UCLA encampment mostly cleared. Place looks trashed. |
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kikanga
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Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29648
Location: La La Land
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| Posted: Thu May 02, 2024 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| lakersken80 wrote: | | Partys over at the UCLA encampment. |
Party? I don't know of any protestor who described their time there as a party.
| lakersken80 wrote: |
Guys getting taken to the paddy wagon don't look like UCLA students. |
The people in the encampment were students.
The people who were trying to protect the encampment weren't students.
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"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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lakersken80
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Aug 2009
Posts: 38899
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| Posted: Thu May 02, 2024 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Partys over at the UCLA encampment. |
Party? I don't know of any protestor who described their time there as a party.
| lakersken80 wrote: |
Guys getting taken to the paddy wagon don't look like UCLA students. |
The people in the encampment were students.
The people who were trying to protect the encampment weren't students. |
I watched most of the taking down of the encampment. The first people taken into custody looked far older than UCLA students. They were also the ones that were providing the most resistance when the authorities were trying to take down the wooden barriers. |
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