|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
lakerjoshua
Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 11277
Location: Bay Area
|
 Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SweetP wrote: | | lakerjoshua wrote: | Introducing:
Rep. Ass Hat from Montana......
Seriously this dude is gonna be a congressman? |
I think he has to run again for re-election in 2018? Maybe he can be an on-going embarrassment for the GOP house for a year and then get swept out next year? Win-win. |
We win when we realize moving center is not a new dance move.
Sigh, a few more months? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24
|
| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | What values are more important than having healthcare and enough money to live and provide for your family? |
Limited government, for starters. This is where you miss the point. Sure, these people want healthcare and food. They just don't think that it's the government's job to provide it. Not everyone buys into the logic of the welfare state. |
This is the great lie of the right. That if you get the government out of it, the good people and the market will make it rain food and affordable healthcare for everyone. The fact that time and time again this is proven to be the opposite of the truth never seems to sink in. Even when these same voters find themselves on the other end of this, like in the current health care situation.
Make no mistake, the market is not there to feed everyone or to provide affordable healthcare. It is the to extract profit, and those who cannot pay are not of any interest to the market. This is why government is needed.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24
|
| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Wilt wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | Hector the Pup wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | Donald scolded NATO for not paying their fair share at the 911 ceremony. I don't think many, if any, expected that. |
Most people are at the point where they put nothing past him. Those who have been paying attention no longer say 'that has to be fake. He would never say/do that.' |
Donald has a point, NATO's not paying their fair share. However the 911 memorial ceremony wasn't the place to admonish the community. Right after saying how they helped, came together, during 911. |
No, he doesn't have a point. The agreement says that NATO members should spend 2% of their GDP on their OWN militaries. Most members spend less than that, but they have many more years to meet that target. So when he says that they "owe" us something, he's lying. |
I understand the 2% GDP agreement. It's my understanding most members are behind in paying their share. I don't understand why he thinks they owe us. Who is the custodian of the funds? I don't think this was the forum to discuss it.
Donald isn't the first president to bring this up. Obama, Bush and I believe Clinton made mention. |
We know he's a know nothing (bleep), but he may also be Putin's puppet. Being an (bleep) is an adequate explanation for his behavior, but if he's indeed doing Putin's work (and we all know Putin's stance on NATO), then we're in deep trouble. |
The idea that that other NATO nations spending more on their own militaries (And of course buy a bunch of hardware from our companies) would cost us less is ludicrous. We spend what we spend to be the dominant player in the world, and wouldn't spend a dime less if others "step up". It's just a nice talking point to justify our war machine.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 5:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Omar Little wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | What values are more important than having healthcare and enough money to live and provide for your family? |
Limited government, for starters. This is where you miss the point. Sure, these people want healthcare and food. They just don't think that it's the government's job to provide it. Not everyone buys into the logic of the welfare state. |
This is the great lie of the right. That if you get the government out of it, the good people and the market will make it rain food and affordable healthcare for everyone. The fact that time and time again this is proven to be the opposite of the truth never seems to sink in. Even when these same voters find themselves on the other end of this, like in the current health care situation.
Make no mistake, the market is not there to feed everyone or to provide affordable healthcare. It is the to extract profit, and those who cannot pay are not of any interest to the market. This is why government is needed. |
Again, not everyone buys into the logic of the welfare state. The right would say, in essence, that giving handouts to the poor guarantees that people stay poor. Unfortunately, history has substantiates this. Government thrives on dependency. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kikanga
Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29353
Location: La La Land
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 7:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | What values are more important than having healthcare and enough money to live and provide for your family? |
Limited government, for starters. This is where you miss the point. Sure, these people want healthcare and food. They just don't think that it's the government's job to provide it. Not everyone buys into the logic of the welfare state. |
This is the great lie of the right. That if you get the government out of it, the good people and the market will make it rain food and affordable healthcare for everyone. The fact that time and time again this is proven to be the opposite of the truth never seems to sink in. Even when these same voters find themselves on the other end of this, like in the current health care situation.
Make no mistake, the market is not there to feed everyone or to provide affordable healthcare. It is the to extract profit, and those who cannot pay are not of any interest to the market. This is why government is needed. |
Again, not everyone buys into the logic of the welfare state. The right would say, in essence, that giving handouts to the poor guarantees that people stay poor. Unfortunately, history has substantiates this. Government thrives on dependency. |
And what happens without the "handouts"? Well particularly with healthcare, the poor die.
But hey, I guess when they're dead, they aren't poor anymore.  Kinda sad the conservative base thinks that is the better alternative (until it happens to them). "Keep your government hands off my Medicare!"
_________________
"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hector the Pup
Retired Number
Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 35946
Location: L.A.
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 7:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| trmiv wrote: | https://www.google.com/amp/amp.usatoday.com/story/102162310/
| Quote: | "The Germans are bad, very bad," Trump told EU Commissioner Jean-Claude Juncker and European Council president Donald Tusk, according to German news magazine Der Spiegel.
"Look at the millions of cars they’re selling in the US. Terrible. We will stop this,” Trump reportedly said of the Germans.
|
So for those keeping track. According to Trump: Duarte is doing a great job, Erdogan is great. Putin? Never a bad word about him. But one of our greatest allies Germany? Bad. Very bad.
Oh and can someone tell this ignorant (bleep) that the largest BMW plant in the world is located in South Carolina and employs over 8000 people? |
And the last time I checked, VW and Mercedes build a few cars and employ a few folks here too.
One commentary I read, can't remember where, summed it up perfectly. Putin is getting something that Russia and the USSR have wanted since the late 40's - driving a wedge between Germany and the US. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trmiv
Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Nov 2001
Posts: 17659
Location: Orlando
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 8:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
It's Time to Get Rid of Donald Trump
| Quote: | Donald Trump is not fit to be president of the United States. He does not possess the requisite intellect and does not understand the significance of the office he holds nor the tasks associated with it. He doesn't read. He doesn't bother to peruse important files and intelligence reports and knows little about the issues that he has identified as his priorities. His decisions are capricious and they are delivered in the form of tyrannical decrees.
He is a man free of morals. As has been demonstrated hundreds of times, he is a liar, a racist and a cheat. I feel ashamed to use these words, as sharp and loud as they are. But if they apply to anyone, they apply to Trump. And one of the media's tasks is to continue telling things as they are: Trump has to be removed from the White House. Quickly. He is a danger to the world. |
Keep in mind not only is Der Spiegel one of the most influential publications in Europe, this editorial is written by their Editor in Chief. So the editor in chief of the largest and most influential magazines in one of our closest allies is directly calling for Trump to go. Way to go Cheeto Benito. Bang up job in 120 days. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 9:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kikanga wrote: | And what happens without the "handouts"? Well particularly with healthcare, the poor die.
But hey, I guess when they're dead, they aren't poor anymore. Kinda sad the conservative base thinks that is the better alternative (until it happens to them). "Keep your government hands off my Medicare!" |
That's the sales pitch for the welfare state. The reality is quite different. We end up with multiple generations of people dependent on handouts. We have people refusing to take full time jobs because they don't want to lose their government benefits. Maybe the extent of this problem is exaggerated, but it isn't fictional. In the end, it all becomes a massive exercise in income redistribution, but in a twisted sort of way. The poor become dependent, and the rich find ways to game the system. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChefLinda
Moderator
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 24166
Location: Boston
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 10:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | And what happens without the "handouts"? Well particularly with healthcare, the poor die.
But hey, I guess when they're dead, they aren't poor anymore. Kinda sad the conservative base thinks that is the better alternative (until it happens to them). "Keep your government hands off my Medicare!" |
That's the sales pitch for the welfare state. The reality is quite different. We end up with multiple generations of people dependent on handouts. We have people refusing to take full time jobs because they don't want to lose their government benefits. Maybe the extent of this problem is exaggerated, but it isn't fictional. In the end, it all becomes a massive exercise in income redistribution, but in a twisted sort of way. The poor become dependent, and the rich find ways to game the system. |
If this argument was authentic, then it's logical conclusion would be to invest in education, job training, child care, preventative health care, access to birth control and a livable minimum wage so these people could work themselves up out of poverty. Short term investment for long-term gains. Except that side the political spectrum doesn't want any of these things either.
Most of the "poor' in this country are "working poor." The GOP meme that there are masses of people sitting around on porch steps just being lazy is as offensive as it is inaccurate. Most of the working poor are women working in minimum wage service jobs desperately trying to make ends meet while trying to care for children and elderly parents. Another good portion of the "poor" are the elderly. Another good portion of the "poor" are vets who've come home to a dearth of jobs.
It's easy to stereotype people. Trying to do something to help them help themselves through effective yet compassionate policies is hard.
And you know who else the above policies would help? White working class Trump voters. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Palin
Star Player
Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 1809
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 10:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ChefLinda wrote: | | If this argument was authentic, then it's logical conclusion would be to invest in education, job training, child care, preventative health care, access to birth control and a livable minimum wage so these people could work themselves up out of poverty. |
The argument is authentic, and your conclusion is logical only if you buy into the notion that it is the job of the government to fix everything.
| ChefLinda wrote: | | And you know who else the above policies would help? White working class Trump voters. |
The left really needs to get away from this argument. It doesn't play well with its intended audience. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LakesGnrLake
Star Player
Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 1296
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 11:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
| ChefLinda wrote: | | And you know who else the above policies would help? White working class Trump voters. |
The left really needs to get away from this argument. It doesn't play well with its intended audience. |
The white devil is coming for us all!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChefLinda
Moderator
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 24166
Location: Boston
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 11:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
When education, job training, child care, preventative health care, access to birth control and a livable minimum wage are categorized alternatively as both socialism and as a pejorative directed at white working class voters, then I have to conclude we have no common set of facts upon which to discuss this further.
#TGIF |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lakersken80
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Aug 2009
Posts: 38791
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kikanga
Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29353
Location: La La Land
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 11:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ChefLinda wrote: | When education, job training, child care, preventative health care, access to birth control and a livable minimum wage are categorized alternatively as both socialism and as a pejorative directed at white working class voters, then I have to conclude we have no common set of facts upon which to discuss this further.
#TGIF |
The % of people who would turn down a route to a higher paying job just to collect welfare, is probably the same % of people who voted illegally.
Minuscule.
Love how the "don't let the minuscule minority ruin things for the majority" argument is valid when it comes to gun legislation. But the argument disappears when it comes to policy that would better the life expectancy and standard of living for 90% of America.
Tempted to repost that chart I put up about income inequality yesterday. But clearly facts aren't welcome.
Also love how your demographic breakdown of poor and working poor was completely ignored in AH's last post.
Just once I'd like an intelligent conservative response based on facts. But the facts aren't on their side. But the GOP does have great generalizations and anecdotal evidence.
_________________
"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52657
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 11:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ChefLinda wrote: | When education, job training, child care, preventative health care, access to birth control and a livable minimum wage are categorized alternatively as both socialism and as a pejorative directed at white working class voters, then I have to conclude we have no common set of facts upon which to discuss this further.
#TGIF |
Let's not forget, AH's argument comes from those who also (and quite ironically/hypocritically) argue that cutting taxes for the wealthy will somehow trickle down to the poor little people. So "welfare" for the rich folk is fine . . .
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52657
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 11:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kikanga wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | When education, job training, child care, preventative health care, access to birth control and a livable minimum wage are categorized alternatively as both socialism and as a pejorative directed at white working class voters, then I have to conclude we have no common set of facts upon which to discuss this further.
#TGIF |
The % of people who would turn down a route to a higher paying job just to collect welfare, is probably the same % of people who voted illegally.
Minuscule.
Love how the "don't let the minuscule minority ruin things for the majority" argument is valid when it comes to gun legislation. But the argument disappears when it comes to policy that would better the life expectancy and standard of living for 90% of America.
Tempted to repost that chart I put up about income inequality yesterday. But clearly facts aren't welcome.
Also love how your demographic breakdown of poor and working poor was completely ignored in AH's last post.
Just once I'd like an intelligent conservative response based on facts. But the facts aren't on their side. But the GOP does have great generalizations and anecdotal evidence. |
I love the alleged "historical fact" that poor people just want to be poor, so if you make it easy for them to be poor, they will choose to be poor.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 12:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ChefLinda wrote: | When education, job training, child care, preventative health care, access to birth control and a livable minimum wage are categorized alternatively as both socialism and as a pejorative directed at white working class voters, then I have to conclude we have no common set of facts upon which to discuss this further.
#TGIF |
Be careful. You can hurt your shoulder if you pat yourself on the back too hard. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 12:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kikanga wrote: | | Just once I'd like an intelligent conservative response based on facts. But the facts aren't on their side. But the GOP does have great generalizations and anecdotal evidence. |
No, you wouldn't even recognize such a thing. What frustrates you is that the right does not accept your "facts," because they are really opinions. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
splashmtn
Star Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Posts: 3961
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | splashmtn wrote: | | what i was trying to show you with the DeVos education stuff is that these are the same billionaires who usually pay politicians to talk that limited government talk while also trying to secure more welfare for their big corps. while also trying to find a way to get a hold of tax payer money to do something where it really doesnt help the average joe tax payer it only helps a small few at the top. |
I understood your point. These people are part of the reason why I'm a Democrat now. But my point remains. Are these voucher programs getting any significant traction? Why not?
The answer is that the grass roots GOP is a bastion of neither the religious right nor corporatists. Both of those groups have considerable sway, for sure. So why did they vote for Trump? There were a lot of reasons among such a diverse group of people. However, the rank and file rejected the establishment types in the primaries. Trump did not run on a corporatist platform. |
and here comes that thing called mentally ill. Does a billionaire that was rich from birth that you've known thru factual information, has done shady business and has filed BR numerous timse. Why would this man even need to run on a Corporatist platform? He is a Corporatist. He's not a politician thats talking about we should agree with them. He is THEM. How could someone be delusional enough to not see that? Unless they are mentally ill. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
splashmtn
Star Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Posts: 3961
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| claps hands. lets go. Tired of waiting on these other people that act as if they dont get it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChefLinda
Moderator
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 24166
Location: Boston
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | When education, job training, child care, preventative health care, access to birth control and a livable minimum wage are categorized alternatively as both socialism and as a pejorative directed at white working class voters, then I have to conclude we have no common set of facts upon which to discuss this further.
#TGIF |
Be careful. You can hurt your shoulder if you pat yourself on the back too hard. |
Love how you always have to end these things with a personal jab. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ContagiousInspiration
Franchise Player
Joined: 07 May 2014
Posts: 13823
Location: Boulder ;)
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ChefLinda wrote: | When education, job training, child care, preventative health care, access to birth control and a livable minimum wage are categorized alternatively as both socialism and as a pejorative directed at white working class voters, then I have to conclude we have no common set of facts upon which to discuss this further.
#TGIF |
We should talk about government welfare
Defense Industry welfare
Energy/Oil Industry Welfare
Foreign Aid Welfare
Trillion Plus spent on wars
Either you join the military, go to jail or work your ass off just to pay for health care the government forced you to buy
Notice what stocks went up ..private prisons.. so our society can go backwards
Want to lock someone up? Start in the swamp!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lakersken80
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Aug 2009
Posts: 38791
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| splashmtn wrote: | | claps hands. lets go. Tired of waiting on these other people that act as if they dont get it. |
Won't be cheap. Supposed to be 15% of your total income.
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/05/22/healthy-california-act-annual-price-tag-400-billion/
| Quote: | That eye-popping number means the cost of Senate Bill 562, known as The Healthy California Act, would be three times higher than the state’s proposed $124 billion general fund budget for next year.
But the eight-page report — which is a preliminary review of the proposed legislation to provide government-run health coverage with virtually no out-of-pocket costs to consumers — said that existing federal, state and local funding for programs like Medicare and Medicaid would pay half the amount — $200 billion.
To make up the balance, Californians could expect to be on the hook for up to $200 billion in additional tax revenues, likely through an added payroll tax they would share with their employer and which could be as much as 15 percent of their income, the report said. The bill’s sponsor — the California Nurses Association — disputes the 15 percent figure.
Overall costs of the new taxes, the report said, would be largely offset by reduced spending on health care coverage by employers and employees under a state-run plan.
The report noted that the estimated annual cost for employer sponsored health insurance in California is between $100 billion to $150 billion. Taking that into account, the report said, could mean total new spending required under SB 562 would fall to $50 billion to $100 billion annually.
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ChefLinda wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | When education, job training, child care, preventative health care, access to birth control and a livable minimum wage are categorized alternatively as both socialism and as a pejorative directed at white working class voters, then I have to conclude we have no common set of facts upon which to discuss this further.
#TGIF |
Be careful. You can hurt your shoulder if you pat yourself on the back too hard. |
Love how you always have to end these things with a personal jab. |
Linda, all you ever do is take personal jabs. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
