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kikanga
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ChefLinda
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 Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | When education, job training, child care, preventative health care, access to birth control and a livable minimum wage are categorized alternatively as both socialism and as a pejorative directed at white working class voters, then I have to conclude we have no common set of facts upon which to discuss this further.
#TGIF |
Be careful. You can hurt your shoulder if you pat yourself on the back too hard. |
Love how you always have to end these things with a personal jab. |
Linda, all you ever do is take personal jabs. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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Kikanga --I've read the CBO report. What does this have to do with anything we've been talking about?
As for the other stuff you've linked, what is your thesis? You link a couple studies, but what in particular is your point?
Last edited by Aeneas Hunter on Fri May 26, 2017 2:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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LakesGnrLake
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| i think the problem os people think the government is a genie that grants more wishes the more money you throw at it but how long are people going to complain about public services being underfunded. and dont blame the GOP because these problems have gone on for decades. America is playing with funny money, this stuff we spend on doesnt even technically have the funding. trillions in debt but MORE money needs to be spent. If people want true prosperity for their people, the government is only a band aid, not the cure |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Kikanga --I've read the CBO report. What does this have to do with anything we've been talking about?
As for the other stuff you've linked, what is your thesis? You link a couple studies, but what in particular is your point? |
 My thesis.
I just want to understand if your opinion has any merit. I doubt there are many conservatives more informed than you.
I hear you repeat Fox News turn of phrases and anecdotes. And I wanted to know if there is any depth behind it.
You say welfare perpetuates poverty. So I posted one of many Harvard studies that disagrees.
You mention redistribution of wealth as if it's a bad thing. So I posted a chart showing income inequality
You said we need limited government, so I posted about the millions of people who will lose healthcare so you know the cost of that belief.
Just want to know what gives your perspective merit. And I mean the dictionary definition of merit.
"The factual content of a matter, apart from emotional, contextual, or formal considerations."
Facts have shaped my political leaning. I want to know if facts have shaped yours.
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Last edited by kikanga on Fri May 26, 2017 3:16 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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Washington Post: Russian ambassador told Moscow that Kushner wanted secret communications channel with Kremlin
| Quote: | Jared Kushner and Russia’s ambassador to Washington discussed the possibility of setting up a secret and secure communications channel between Trump’s transition team and the Kremlin, using Russian diplomatic facilities in an apparent move to shield their pre-inauguration discussions from monitoring, according to U.S. officials briefed on intelligence reports.
Ambassador Sergei Kislyak reported to his superiors in Moscow that Kushner, then President-elect Trump’s son-in-law and confidant, made the proposal during a meeting on Dec. 1 or 2 at Trump Tower, according to intercepts of Russian communications that were reviewed by U.S. officials. Kislyak said Kushner suggested using Russian diplomatic facilities in the United States for the communications.
The meeting also was attended by Michael Flynn, Trump’s first national security adviser. |
I bet this is the genesis of Trump accusing Obama of "tapping Trump Tower" phones. |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Washington Post: Senate Intelligence Committee requests Trump campaign documents
| Quote: | The Senate Intelligence Committee, which is investigating Russian interference in the 2016 presidential race, has asked President Trump’s political organization to gather and produce all documents, emails and phone records going back to his campaign’s launch in June 2015, according to two people briefed on the request.
The letter from the Senate arrived at Trump’s campaign committee last week and was addressed to the group’s treasurer. Since then, some former staffers have been notified and asked to cooperate, the people said. They were not authorized to speak publicly.
Dozens of former staffers are expected to be contacted in the coming days to make sure they are aware of the request, the people added. |
#DripDripDrip |
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SweetP
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | Washington Post: Russian ambassador told Moscow that Kushner wanted secret communications channel with Kremlin
| Quote: | Jared Kushner and Russia’s ambassador to Washington discussed the possibility of setting up a secret and secure communications channel between Trump’s transition team and the Kremlin, using Russian diplomatic facilities in an apparent move to shield their pre-inauguration discussions from monitoring, according to U.S. officials briefed on intelligence reports.
Ambassador Sergei Kislyak reported to his superiors in Moscow that Kushner, then President-elect Trump’s son-in-law and confidant, made the proposal during a meeting on Dec. 1 or 2 at Trump Tower, according to intercepts of Russian communications that were reviewed by U.S. officials. Kislyak said Kushner suggested using Russian diplomatic facilities in the United States for the communications.
The meeting also was attended by Michael Flynn, Trump’s first national security adviser. |
I bet this is the genesis of Trump accusing Obama of "tapping Trump Tower" phones. |
Didn't Trump's tweet say "Obama tapped ME at Trump Tower"? He was not at this meeting apparently but if Jared or Flynn called or texted Trump during the meeting for input and Kislyak reported Trump's comments or questions in that recorded call to his superiors in Russia, the transcripts would have Trump's own words/thoughts from a meeting at Trump Tower.
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cisternachyli
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| SweetP wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | Washington Post: Russian ambassador told Moscow that Kushner wanted secret communications channel with Kremlin
| Quote: | Jared Kushner and Russia’s ambassador to Washington discussed the possibility of setting up a secret and secure communications channel between Trump’s transition team and the Kremlin, using Russian diplomatic facilities in an apparent move to shield their pre-inauguration discussions from monitoring, according to U.S. officials briefed on intelligence reports.
Ambassador Sergei Kislyak reported to his superiors in Moscow that Kushner, then President-elect Trump’s son-in-law and confidant, made the proposal during a meeting on Dec. 1 or 2 at Trump Tower, according to intercepts of Russian communications that were reviewed by U.S. officials. Kislyak said Kushner suggested using Russian diplomatic facilities in the United States for the communications.
The meeting also was attended by Michael Flynn, Trump’s first national security adviser. |
I bet this is the genesis of Trump accusing Obama of "tapping Trump Tower" phones. |
Didn't Trump's tweet say "Obama tapped ME at Trump Tower"? He was not at this meeting apparently but if Jared or Flynn called or texted Trump during the meeting for input and Kislyak reported Trump's comments or questions in that recorded call to his superiors in Russia, the transcripts would have Trump's own words/thoughts from a meeting at Trump Tower. |
We don't know that they don't have tapes on Trump too. If he ever talked to Kislyak by phone at Trump Tower...to be continued.
Some of the intercepts are of Kislyak talking to his own people ABOUT his conversations with Kushner. |
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SweetP
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | A poll conducted by the Pew Research Center last summer found that 77 percent of Europeans had confidence in him (Obama), including 86 percent of Germans. The poll asked Europeans what they thought about Trump, who at that point was a presidential candidate. Just 9 percent of Europeans said they had confidence in him. |
Washington Post
Ouch! And I'm guessing this current European road-trip by Trump is not increasing that percentage.
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lakerjoshua
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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Something very similar happened to a Latina friend of mine yesterday in Oakland. What the hell is going on!?! |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Dan PfeifferVerified account @danpfeiffer
It's not that complicated
The quid is the hacking
The quo is the secret channel directly into the Oval Office hidden from US intel |
Literally Putin's puppet. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | | Quote: | Dan PfeifferVerified account @danpfeiffer
It's not that complicated
The quid is the hacking
The quo is the secret channel directly into the Oval Office hidden from US intel |
Literally Putin's puppet. |
But the existence of a Quid Pro Quo is inconceivable, as we have been told here several times.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
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Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | I just want to understand if your opinion has any merit. I doubt there are many conservatives more informed than you.
I hear you repeat Fox News turn of phrases and anecdotes. And I wanted to know if there is any depth behind it. |
I think you lost the thread of this discussion. I'm explaining the viewpoint of grassroots conservatives. That doesn't mean that I AM a grassroots conservative. I'm a Democrat, albeit a moderate Democrat.
| kikanga wrote: | | You say welfare perpetuates poverty. So I posted one of many Harvard studies that disagrees. |
I didn't actually say that, but that's close enough for discussion purposes. The study you linked involves effects on employment in other countries, not the US. The effects of welfare on employment in Mexico are not germane to anything we are discussing. I ran a quick search for some US data, and I found this:
| Quote: | | Evidence from the California Work Pays Demonstration Project in the early 1990s indicates that cutting welfare benefits had a modest, positive effect on employment. The cuts, which reduced the maximum aid payment by 15 percent, resulted in the experimental group having employment rates that were 10 to 11.5 percent higher than the control group. |
http://www.econ.wisc.edu/~scholz/Research/CWPDP_paper_version6.pdf
Now, I do not claim to have canvassed the literature on this issue, but frankly this seems like common sense. If people have the choice between working and getting a check from government, some but not all of them are going to opt for the check. Maybe people react differently in other cultures with different welfare systems, but here in the US, I suspect that most of us know people who meet that description.
| kikanga wrote: | | You mention redistribution of wealth as if it's a bad thing. So I posted a chart showing income inequality |
Yes, we have income inequality in the US. I didn't need a chart to know that. It's not a good thing, but that doesn't compel support for handouts.
| kikanga wrote: | | You said we need limited government, so I posted about the millions of people who will lose healthcare so you know the cost of that belief. |
No, that's millions of people who will lose health insurance, not healthcare. The question is whether the government should be in the business of guaranteeing equivalent access to healthcare. Personally, I'm a single payer advocate, so I'm the wrong person to argue with if you want a fight on that subject. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Dan PfeifferVerified account @danpfeiffer
It's not that complicated
The quid is the hacking
The quo is the secret channel directly into the Oval Office hidden from US intel |
That's one of the dumber theories that I've heard recently. It's a quid pro quo that caught the Russians by surprise. After he became president, does this guy think that Trump was going to send secret messages to the Russians using Russian diplomatic facilities? Trump could pick up the phone and talk to Putin about anything he wanted to. |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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Reuters Exclusive: Trump son-in-law had undisclosed contacts with Russian envoy - sources
| Quote: | Kushner’s was one of the names that was revealed, the official said, prompting a closer look at the president’s son-in-law’s dealings with Kislyak and other Russians.
FBI investigators are examining whether Russians suggested to Kushner or other Trump aides that relaxing economic sanctions would allow Russian banks to offer financing to people with ties to Trump, said the current U.S. law enforcement official.
The head of Russian state-owned Vnesheconombank, Sergei Nikolaevich Gorkov, a trained intelligence officer whom Putin appointed, met Kushner at Trump Tower in December. The bank is under U.S. sanctions and was implicated in a 2015 espionage case in which one of its New York executives pleaded guilty to spying and was jailed. |
These might be the sorts of illegal activity discussions the Kushner/Trump family would want shielded from U.S. intelligence. Hence the desire for a back-channel
Last edited by ChefLinda on Fri May 26, 2017 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | When education, job training, child care, preventative health care, access to birth control and a livable minimum wage are categorized alternatively as both socialism and as a pejorative directed at white working class voters, then I have to conclude we have no common set of facts upon which to discuss this further.
#TGIF |
Be careful. You can hurt your shoulder if you pat yourself on the back too hard. |
Love how you always have to end these things with a personal jab. |
It's this, calling evidence opinion, producing opinion with no evidence as fact, and rebutting the argument not made. Fairly standard lawyer and politician (but I repeat myself) stuff.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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SweetP
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | Reuters Exclusive: Trump son-in-law had undisclosed contacts with Russian envoy - sources
| Quote: | Kushner’s was one of the names that was revealed, the official said, prompting a closer look at the president’s son-in-law’s dealings with Kislyak and other Russians.
FBI investigators are examining whether Russians suggested to Kushner or other Trump aides that relaxing economic sanctions would allow Russian banks to offer financing to people with ties to Trump, said the current U.S. law enforcement official.
The head of Russian state-owned Vnesheconombank, Sergei Nikolaevich Gorkov, a trained intelligence officer whom Putin appointed, met Kushner at Trump Tower in December. The bank is under U.S. sanctions and was implicated in a 2015 espionage case in which one of its New York executives pleaded guilty to spying and was jailed. |
These might be the sorts of illegal activity discussions the Kushner/Trump family would want shielded from U.S. intelligence. Hence the desire for a back-channel |
This is just sounding worse (and more stupid) with each new bit of info coming out. I know it is not proven yet, just being investigated but my goodness the optics of all of this is horrendous.
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“There is always light if only we're brave enough to see it, if only we're brave enough to be it.” --Amanda Gorman |
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Huey Lewis & The News
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Location: So what's the uh...topic of discussion?
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SweetP
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Wants all of us "coastal liberal elites" to fall into the Pacific.
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“There is always light if only we're brave enough to see it, if only we're brave enough to be it.” --Amanda Gorman |
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Huey Lewis & The News
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | When education, job training, child care, preventative health care, access to birth control and a livable minimum wage are categorized alternatively as both socialism and as a pejorative directed at white working class voters, then I have to conclude we have no common set of facts upon which to discuss this further.
#TGIF |
Be careful. You can hurt your shoulder if you pat yourself on the back too hard. |
Love how you always have to end these things with a personal jab. |
It's this, calling evidence opinion, producing opinion with no evidence as fact, and rebutting the argument not made. Fairly standard lawyer and politician (but I repeat myself) stuff. |
Right, and I get accused of taking personal jabs. Maybe you should just re-title this thread "The Liberal Safe Zone," and you can all just agree with each other. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 5:42 am Post subject: |
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I'm sure that Trump cares greatly about what the DNC thinks he should do. The opinions that matter are going to be Mueller, Burr, and whoever had the power to pull the security clearance. |
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Even McMasters is covering for Kushner now. What a corrupt lackey he turned out to be. What could possibly be in it for him? |
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