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vanexelent
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 Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| During Obama's term and during the campaign, Trump was completely against doing anything in Syria. Now, his story is that his administration was so intent on solving the Syrian crisis before he took office, that they had to set up back channels for communication? Doesn't add up. Even if he pivoted and wanted to engage in Syria, the Obama administration had already showed a willingness to do so, so why would he be fearful of anyone finding out? |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| DuncanIdaho wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | | What has McMaster done other than joining the Trump administraction? If Trump asked me to be part of his cabinet, I would say yes. I might be fired the next day because I would still be me, trying to influence the administration in the right direction, but that would also be why I said yes. I think McMaster is in the same boat, it's just that for optics sake, Trump can't fire him yet. I don't blame him. |
Well, let's see if he fires him in the next few months. For now, McMaster has tried to spin heavily to defend Trump (we've mentioned a couple instances earlier). Heck, it was beyond spinning, it was lying. I'm fine with a little bit of spinning (every official in every administration does it). If you work for Trump and if you're a reasonable person, the starting point without any spin is, "this is the biggest idiot I've ever seen." But McMaster has praised Trump's "leadership" on a number of issues to the public. At this point, if you're McMaster, you have to quit to maintain your integrity or have yourself fired. The longer he works there and the longer he praises Trump, the more he has to lie, and the more he loses his integrity. And it doesn't matter if the Senate initially supported him 100-0 and if he has 15 stars on his uniform, the minute he joined Trump and started praising him, he was no longer than same man he was a few months ago. |
I don't agree. I think he's trying to keep his job and effect positive change, but is not succeeding. |
That's the point. There's no way you align align yourself with this abysmal and destructive administration unless you are in line with that path of destruction. No reasonable person thinks Trump appoints people to keep him inline. The only way you associate yourself with this train wreck is because you believe you'll personally benefit from the aftermath of the wreck that obliterates the citizens you are uncharged with representing.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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DuncanIdaho
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | | What has McMaster done other than joining the Trump administraction? If Trump asked me to be part of his cabinet, I would say yes. I might be fired the next day because I would still be me, trying to influence the administration in the right direction, but that would also be why I said yes. I think McMaster is in the same boat, it's just that for optics sake, Trump can't fire him yet. I don't blame him. |
I get what you are saying, but this is exactly why I wouldn't accept a position the Trump administration. He wants only appearance and acquiescence. There's no chance to influence anything. He doesn't want guidance and the only influence he wants involves manipulating things to satisfy and tiny sphere of personal interests - all of which are antithetical to what is best for the people of this country.
The only thing one accomplishes by signing on to the Trump administration is to broadcast to the world that you are fine with dishonesty, racism, elitism and suppression of rights and equity. Which is why I am immediately suspicious of anyone who would enter into such an administration, regardless of their previous history. Every single appointee has been a charlatan and a destructive entity. And in fact, I am less suspicious of the Bannons etc. than I am the McMasters, because the motives of Bannon, DeVos etc. are obvious and pure to his history. McMaster definitely begs suspicion because you know his motives can't be pure. |
So our career public servants should just say F it and write off the next 4 years while the country goes to hell? Because that's what this means.
Last edited by DuncanIdaho on Sun May 28, 2017 5:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DuncanIdaho
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | DuncanIdaho wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | | What has McMaster done other than joining the Trump administraction? If Trump asked me to be part of his cabinet, I would say yes. I might be fired the next day because I would still be me, trying to influence the administration in the right direction, but that would also be why I said yes. I think McMaster is in the same boat, it's just that for optics sake, Trump can't fire him yet. I don't blame him. |
Well, let's see if he fires him in the next few months. For now, McMaster has tried to spin heavily to defend Trump (we've mentioned a couple instances earlier). Heck, it was beyond spinning, it was lying. I'm fine with a little bit of spinning (every official in every administration does it). If you work for Trump and if you're a reasonable person, the starting point without any spin is, "this is the biggest idiot I've ever seen." But McMaster has praised Trump's "leadership" on a number of issues to the public. At this point, if you're McMaster, you have to quit to maintain your integrity or have yourself fired. The longer he works there and the longer he praises Trump, the more he has to lie, and the more he loses his integrity. And it doesn't matter if the Senate initially supported him 100-0 and if he has 15 stars on his uniform, the minute he joined Trump and started praising him, he was no longer than same man he was a few months ago. |
I don't agree. I think he's trying to keep his job and effect positive change, but is not succeeding. |
That's the point. There's no way you align align yourself with this abysmal and destructive administration unless you are in line with that path of destruction. No reasonable person thinks Trump appoints people to keep him inline. The only way you associate yourself with this train wreck is because you believe you'll personally benefit from the aftermath of the wreck that obliterates the citizens you are uncharged with representing. |
It couldn't be that he's a career public servant that is trying to do some good for his country, it's that he wants to profit from destruction. I can't stand these kind of absolutes that are spoken as if they are truth but in reality are anything but. |
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Wilt
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| DuncanIdaho wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | | What has McMaster done other than joining the Trump administraction? If Trump asked me to be part of his cabinet, I would say yes. I might be fired the next day because I would still be me, trying to influence the administration in the right direction, but that would also be why I said yes. I think McMaster is in the same boat, it's just that for optics sake, Trump can't fire him yet. I don't blame him. |
I get what you are saying, but this is exactly why I wouldn't accept a position the Trump administration. He wants only appearance and acquiescence. There's no chance to influence anything. He doesn't want guidance and the only influence he wants involves manipulating things to satisfy and tiny sphere of personal interests - all of which are antithetical to what is best for the people of this country.
The only thing one accomplishes by signing on to the Trump administration is to broadcast to the world that you are fine with dishonesty, racism, elitism and suppression of rights and equity. Which is why I am immediately suspicious of anyone who would enter into such an administration, regardless of their previous history. Every single appointee has been a charlatan and a destructive entity. And in fact, I am less suspicious of the Bannons etc. than I am the McMasters, because the motives of Bannon, DeVos etc. are obvious and pure to his history. McMaster definitely begs suspicion because you know his motives can't be pure. |
So our career public servants should just say F it and write off the next 4 years while the country goes to hell? Because that's what this means. |
There are thousands of civil servants who were there before Trump and will be there after Trump. They don't work directly for him, he didn't choose them to work for him, they don't interact with him every single day. So there's a difference between McMaster and someone working for the VA in rural Oregon or something.
You keep saying that he wants to do good, but he keeps lying for Trump almost every time he appears in public. Again, I'm not saying he is equal to Sean Spicer, but the longer he stays there, the more he will resemble Trump. I hope you're right and he gets fired soon. It'll be very difficult for the Trumpists to spin that one.
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ani007
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/28/general-mcmaster-step-downand-let-trump-be-trump-215199
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The prime reason I have come to believe I was wrong was the experience of watching Army Lt. Gen. H.R. McMaster, Trump’s second national security adviser, make a series of statements. On the evening of Monday, May 15, he appeared before cameras at the White House to respond to a Washington Post article reporting that the president had shared sensitive intelligence about terrorism with Russian visitors. This information was sufficiently detailed, some intelligence officials feared, that it might enable interested parties to determine the source of that intelligence.
Not so, said General McMaster. “The story that came out tonight as reported is false,” he stated emphatically.
The next day, he appeared again before the cameras. This time his line was: “the premise of that article is false—that in any way the president had a conversation that was inappropriate or that resulted in any kind of lapse in national security.” That’s what people in Washington say when they can’t dispute the facts in a given article, but still dislike it.
On the president’s first foreign trip, McMaster has continued to defend Trump, for example, expressing over the weekend a lack of concern about reports that Trump’s son-in-law and confidant Jared Kushner sought to establish a secret, back-channel line of communication to the Russian government that would be hidden from the U.S. national security apparatus.
“We have backchannel communications with a number of countries,” McMaster said during a press availability in Italy. “What that allows you to do is communicate in a discreet manner, so I’m not concerned.”
Really? According to the Post’s story, which the White House did not dispute, “Kislyak reportedly was taken aback by the suggestion of allowing an American to use Russian communications gear at its embassy or consulate — a proposal that would have carried security risks for Moscow as well as the Trump team.” There’s no way that would be kosher. And so I fear that McMaster has confused protecting the president with protecting the country.
It saddens me to watch him do this. I’ve known McMaster since he was a major. He is an unusual officer. He has led troops in combat in two very different wars. He is one of our most thoughtful generals. And he wrote one of the best books about the Vietnam War, “Dereliction of Duty,” about the failures of senior American leaders during that war. Consider the two concluding sentences of that book: “The disaster in Vietnam was not the result of impersonal forces but a uniquely human failure, the responsibility for which was shared by President Johnson and his principal military and civilian advisers. The failings were many and reinforcing: arrogance, weakness, lying in the pursuit of self-interest, and, above all, the abdication of responsibility to the American people.”
McMaster also remains on active duty, which makes him subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. This holds him to a far higher standard of behavior than we have seen on videotape from Donald Trump. A military officer is required to tell the truth and shun conduct unbecoming of his or her position.
McMaster probably thinks that by staying at his post, rather than resigning in disgust, he is doing his duty. Specifically, he may think that if stepped down, he might well be succeeded by an alt-right ally of White House adviser Steve Bannon. As I said, I used to believe that too.
But I have watched and waited, and I don’t see McMaster improving Trump. Rather, what I have seen so far is Trump degrading McMaster. In fact, nothing seems to change Trump. He continues to stumble through his foreign policy—embracing autocrats, alienating allies and embarrassing Americans who understand that NATO has helped keep peace in Europe for more than 65 years.
Thinking over this, I worry that having people like McMaster around Trump simply enables Trump. Mature national security specialists seasoned in the ways of Washington simply lend an air of occasional competence to an otherwise shambolic White House. By appearing before the cameras, looking serious and speaking rationally, they add a veneer of normality to this administration. In the process, they tarnish their own good names.
So I think that McMaster should step down—not just for his own good, but for the good of the country. What if he is replaced by a right-wing extremist who operates on an alternative set of “facts”? So much the better, I say.
Here’s why: The saving grace of Donald Trump as president is his incompetence. He knows almost nothing of how the federal government works. He seems to have been repeatedly surprised by the checks and balances written into the Constitution by the Founding Fathers. And he seems uninterested in learning.
Effectively, we have no president. Rather, we have someone who plays the president on television and on Twitter. Aside from a few of his pet subjects, such as immigration, Trump seems to have almost no effect on the workings of the federal government. What we have seen is a demonstration that it is actually a fairly robust establishment. On Iran policy, for example, Defense Secretary James Mattis seems to chug along by himself, pursuing an approach that is basically a somewhat more aggressive version of President Barack Obama’s policy. An ideologue likely would be as ineffective as national security adviser as Trump has been as president, and that wouldn’t be a bad thing.
In my revised view, the less control Trump has over the federal government, the better. Think of it this way: Which would be more dangerous, a Mafia family overseen by the cruel and competent Michael Corleone, or one led by his ineffectual brother Fredo? So, I say, Let Donald be Donald. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| DuncanIdaho wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | | What has McMaster done other than joining the Trump administraction? If Trump asked me to be part of his cabinet, I would say yes. I might be fired the next day because I would still be me, trying to influence the administration in the right direction, but that would also be why I said yes. I think McMaster is in the same boat, it's just that for optics sake, Trump can't fire him yet. I don't blame him. |
I get what you are saying, but this is exactly why I wouldn't accept a position the Trump administration. He wants only appearance and acquiescence. There's no chance to influence anything. He doesn't want guidance and the only influence he wants involves manipulating things to satisfy and tiny sphere of personal interests - all of which are antithetical to what is best for the people of this country.
The only thing one accomplishes by signing on to the Trump administration is to broadcast to the world that you are fine with dishonesty, racism, elitism and suppression of rights and equity. Which is why I am immediately suspicious of anyone who would enter into such an administration, regardless of their previous history. Every single appointee has been a charlatan and a destructive entity. And in fact, I am less suspicious of the Bannons etc. than I am the McMasters, because the motives of Bannon, DeVos etc. are obvious and pure to his history. McMaster definitely begs suspicion because you know his motives can't be pure. |
So our career public servants should just say F it and write off the next 4 years while the country goes to hell? Because that's what this means. |
You're right. That's exactly what it means. There's no other reason a person would align themselves with such an obviously subversive and corrupt administration than sacrificing public integrity for personal gain.
We are finally on the same page 
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| DuncanIdaho wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | DuncanIdaho wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | | What has McMaster done other than joining the Trump administraction? If Trump asked me to be part of his cabinet, I would say yes. I might be fired the next day because I would still be me, trying to influence the administration in the right direction, but that would also be why I said yes. I think McMaster is in the same boat, it's just that for optics sake, Trump can't fire him yet. I don't blame him. |
Well, let's see if he fires him in the next few months. For now, McMaster has tried to spin heavily to defend Trump (we've mentioned a couple instances earlier). Heck, it was beyond spinning, it was lying. I'm fine with a little bit of spinning (every official in every administration does it). If you work for Trump and if you're a reasonable person, the starting point without any spin is, "this is the biggest idiot I've ever seen." But McMaster has praised Trump's "leadership" on a number of issues to the public. At this point, if you're McMaster, you have to quit to maintain your integrity or have yourself fired. The longer he works there and the longer he praises Trump, the more he has to lie, and the more he loses his integrity. And it doesn't matter if the Senate initially supported him 100-0 and if he has 15 stars on his uniform, the minute he joined Trump and started praising him, he was no longer than same man he was a few months ago. |
I don't agree. I think he's trying to keep his job and effect positive change, but is not succeeding. |
That's the point. There's no way you align align yourself with this abysmal and destructive administration unless you are in line with that path of destruction. No reasonable person thinks Trump appoints people to keep him inline. The only way you associate yourself with this train wreck is because you believe you'll personally benefit from the aftermath of the wreck that obliterates the citizens you are uncharged with representing. |
It couldn't be that he's a career public servant that is trying to do some good for his country, it's that he wants to profit from destruction. I can't stand these kind of absolutes that are spoken as if they are truth but in reality are anything but. |
I'm not sure why you think that forcing me to repeat myself is going to change anything in regards to my point. But I will do so one more time, after which I'm going to save LG some server time by not engaging in repetitive back and forth that goes nowhere . . . Again, no well intentioned civil servant aligns himself with an incompetent and corrupt conman who is looking to swindle the American populace (including his own supporters by the way) when it is clear that Trump wants only yes men and not reasonable "input". There's a reason we have seen no well qualified appointees to the various positions and have instead seen people who are wholly antithetical to the positions they hold - such as Session, DeVos etc.
McMaster is not some unicorn that breaks the cycle of planned subversion. If McMaster was the epitome of correctness and integrity you say he is, there's no way he would align himself with a constitutional wrecking ball that is Trump. His integrity would not allow himself to leap into the swamp. While may not be able to stand that observation, I can't stand that people willfully ignore the obvious implications of what it entails.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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DuncanIdaho
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | McMaster is not some unicorn that breaks the cycle of planned subversion. If McMaster was the epitome of correctness and integrity you say he is, there's no way he would align himself with a constitutional wrecking ball that is Trump. His integrity would not allow himself to leap into the swamp. While may not be able to stand that observation, I can't stand that people willfully ignore the obvious implications of what it entails. |
That's just your opinion, and and I've said many times, anyone who thinks Mattis and McMaster are not men of integrity isn't worth having a conversation with, so I guess we're done on this point, like you said. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| DuncanIdaho wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | McMaster is not some unicorn that breaks the cycle of planned subversion. If McMaster was the epitome of correctness and integrity you say he is, there's no way he would align himself with a constitutional wrecking ball that is Trump. His integrity would not allow himself to leap into the swamp. While may not be able to stand that observation, I can't stand that people willfully ignore the obvious implications of what it entails. |
That's just your opinion, |
Oh geez, now even you are resorting to that vapid meme. That's disappointing.
| Quote: | | and I've said many times, anyone who thinks Mattis and McMaster are not men of integrity isn't worth having a conversation with, so I guess we're done on this point, like you said. |
You go ahead and run with that, I hope it works out for you. I'd rather evaluate people on their actual actions as they play out rather than their reputation. But hey, that's just me.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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DuncanIdaho
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Trump’s “America First“ Infrastructure Plan: Let Saudi Arabia and Blackstone Take Care of It
THROUGHOUT THE PRESIDENTIAL campaign, Donald Trump blasted his rival for taking money from Saudi Arabia, which, he regularly charged, has a horrific human rights record and was behind the attack on September 11.
“You talk about women and women’s rights? So these are people that push gays off buildings. These are people that kill women and treat women horribly. And yet you take their money,” he complained.
Trump, of course, has never been married to anything he has said in the past. But even by Trumpian standards, a recent series of deals he struck with Saudi Arabia stand out.
The two that made the news — a $110 billion arms deal and a $100 million gift to an Ivanka Trump-inspired endowment — are remarkable in their own right.
But the third, which was rolled out much more quietly, is no less stunning: The Saudi kingdom joined forces with a top outside adviser to Trump to build a $40 billion war chest to privatize U.S. infrastructure.
The vehicle would employ the same kind of public-private partnerships, known as P3s, the Trump administration has endorsed for its trillion dollar infrastructure plan. The deal hands over control of projects to rebuild American roads and bridges to the private sector and a foreign country.
The Saudi Public Investment Fund announced its $20 billion investment with Blackstone, the private equity giant whose CEO, Stephen Schwarzman, chairs the Strategic and Policy Forum, a key group of private-sector advisers to President Trump. In recent months Schwarzman has become a key adviser to the president, speaking to him “several times a week,” according to Politico. Schwarzman, who has an estate near Mar-a-Lago and has known Trump for years, is a Republican megadonor, giving over $4 million to Super PACs that support conservative candidates in the last election cycle.
[...]
The private equity titan is hardly the only financier personally benefiting from an advisory position with the Trump administration. For example, legendary trader Carl Icahn, another adviser, has been using his influence to get the administration to change ethanol rules that would save companies he owns hundreds of millions of dollars. Icahn has also been personally speculating on financial instruments related to his push for changes in ethanol rules.
https://theintercept.com/2017/05/27/trumps-america-first-infrastructure-plan-let-saudi-arabia-and-blackstone-take-care-of-it/ |
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lakerjoshua
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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Goldenwest
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | Quote: | | To me its better to become friendly with the Russians |
Odd how before Trump started saying this, no American, especially Republicans would ever come to this conclusion. And now, after they attempted to interfere in our democratic process and have influenced this President's policies, there are people that still think this is a good idea? |
Nixon said it. And again, where is the proof the Russians interfered in our elections? Is there an e-mail by Putin or Lavrov or some other Russian official giving the go ahead? A cable or sticky note signed by Putin? The Democrats and DNC Chair, whose e-mails Wikileaks exposed, shot themselves in the foot by heavily pushing a compromised insider candidate. |
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Wilt
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| DuncanIdaho wrote: | | That's just your opinion, and and I've said many times, anyone who thinks Mattis and McMaster are not men of integrity isn't worth having a conversation with, so I guess we're done on this point, like you said. |
What will it take for you to at least acknowledge that they've compromised at least some of that integrity?
You've acknowledged that McMaster has misled the public to defend Trump. But since he's a 3-star general, that is somehow okay because he's trying to save an otherwise crazy administration. Okay, fine. What if he continues to do that for another 6 months and isn't fired? Another year? Will you say the same thing or will you give us a different explanation?
It seems to me your entire rationale for defending Mattis and McMaster is that they're military men and the military is somehow inviolable. I find it more dangerous to make statements that "anyone who thinks Mattis and McMaster are not men of integrity isn't worth having a conversation with" than acknowledging that they're just as capable of compromising their integrity as anyone else.
And again, we're not saying that McMaster has gone beyond the point of no return. If he gets fired soon and word gets out he despised every minute he spent with Trump, I'll continue to admire him. As things stand now, he works for Trump, he lies for him, he defends him.
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Goldenwest
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | | Goldenwest wrote: |
What Malicious Russian actions are you talking about? |
They committed multiple acts of cyber warfare against the United States in an attempt to disrupt our elections and the stability of our democracy. They are still doing it, per the FBI, CIA, Homeland Security and National Intelligence Agencies and they are doing so with malicious intent. And if we don't figure out a way to stop them, they will do it again.
They have also repeated this pattern all over Europe in an attempt to destabilize NATO and the European Alliance. They have admitted as much by who they have backed in each election.
And if you want to get an idea of how some of this might have played out, I suggest you google former CIA Director Brennan's testimony before congress yesterday where he speaks to how Russia tries to infiltrate and corrupt our institutions through cultivating relationships with American individuals, i.e. the Trump-Russia connection was real and the CIA was so alarmed at what they were seeing it triggered the subsequent FBI investigation. The CIA and FBI don't start full fledged investigations over nothing. |
Its not proven those cyber attacks came from the Russian Government, its suspicion and speculation. Anyone from anywhere in the world can use a Russian based address. the setup to paint the Russians as the bad guys is just too good to pass up. And how do they corrupt our institutions? Are they filling our schools with drugs or posting pictures of Lenin in our NY neighborhoods? They may try to gain influence to improve their relations with us, they may even try to get military information from us, but Israel, India and China do also, and in fact alot of countries try to gain military info from each other. And i'm certain we do the same thing with all of them. But they are not killing our soldiers, imprisoning US travelers, beating up our citizens, or bombing our neighborhoods.
And of course Trump has Russian connections, and they could very well be of the less than savory type. But those are of a personal - business type relation. I'm taking about Russian-US relations in general. I don't believe for one minute that this adversarial situation is in our best interest, unless you have a large stake in defense companies.
Last edited by Goldenwest on Mon May 29, 2017 12:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Goldenwest
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersken80 wrote: | Looks like we found a loyal viewer of RT on here.... 
Russia is not our friend. They have nuclear warheads pointed at us since the 1950's. The civilians in Russia do not run the country.Its the oligarchs and their vision of the direction of the country is much different than your everyday run of the mill Russian. Until those people in power change, we will remain adversaries considering our vastly different views of the world.
Don't forget who created the North Korean problem. It was Joseph Stalin. Thanks to him we still have the Kim family giving the middle finger to the rest of us. |
Stop it. The north Korean problem was created by the Chinese. If they hadn't gotten involved we would've won that war. As far as your description of Russia its partially still embedded in the soviet-cold war era. People now are as free there as we are here. Curious, have you been there recently? People have successful entrepreneurial businesses, they're professionals, artists, follow sports, just like us. Yeah, oligarchs have alot of power in Russia but is it that different than the CEO's and big-wigs that basically run our own government? the White house is full of former Goldman Sachs, Halliburton, Amgen and Raytheon people, these are the people that shape our policy. Not you or me. The Russians are not part of our sphere of influence financially and politically. That's why we're adversaries. But again, look at our 'friends' such as the Saudi's and Turks and you'll see this game has nothing to do with freedom of the press and civil rights and everything to do with influence and control. |
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lakersken80
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Joined: 12 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| Goldenwest wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | Looks like we found a loyal viewer of RT on here....
Russia is not our friend. They have nuclear warheads pointed at us since the 1950's. The civilians in Russia do not run the country.Its the oligarchs and their vision of the direction of the country is much different than your everyday run of the mill Russian. Until those people in power change, we will remain adversaries considering our vastly different views of the world.
Don't forget who created the North Korean problem. It was Joseph Stalin. Thanks to him we still have the Kim family giving the middle finger to the rest of us. |
Stop it. The north Korean problem was created by the Chinese. If they hadn't gotten involved we would've won that war. As far as your description of Russia its partially still embedded in the soviet-cold war era. People now are as free there as we are here. Curious, have you been there recently? People have successful entrepreneurial businesses, they're professionals, artists, follow sports, just like us. Yeah, oligarchs have alot of power in Russia but is it that different than the CEO's and big-wigs that basically run our own government? the White house is full of former Goldman Sachs, Halliburton, Amgen and Raytheon people, these are the people that shape our policy. Not you or me. The Russians are not part of our sphere of influence financially and politically. That's why we're adversaries. But again, look at our 'friends' such as the Saudi's and Turks and you'll see this game has nothing to do with freedom of the press and civil rights and everything to do with influence and control. |
Talk about being clueless.
Kim Il Sung was installed as the dictator of North Korea because they wanted a Communist leader to run the territories. The Soviet Union at the time supplied the weapons, including the top of the line Mig-15 fighter jet disguised in North Korean markings as well as pilots dressed in North Korean uniforms to fly them. Much like when the little green men took over Crimea, Soviet Union used plausible deniability but everyone knows of their huge rule in the conflict. Radio traffic intercepted at the time pretty much confirms this. Pretty much all the tanks, artillery, and small weapons were supplied by the Soviet Union. A territory that was previously ruled by Japan suddenly has state of the art Soviet made weapons in their possession.....yeah, not buying it. China supplied the ground troops which would be a huge factor in later overturning the gains when they were on the verge of uniting the Korean peninsula under South Korean rule.
As far as your description that the people in Russia are as free as they are here.
Thats funny, there is no freedom of the press over there. The FSB not only monitors all communication but they have the power to enforce censorship.
If you are LBGT there it is much, much worse than the environment here in the USA.
The rule is law over there is pretty much like mafia rules. No different from other totalitarian governments like Communist China. You do what the government says is the rule of law or expect some armed thugs at your door at 3am in the morning. Pretty much anybody who has emigrated to the USA from Russia will tell you that the USA is a much more free country. |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Goldenwest wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | Goldenwest wrote: |
What Malicious Russian actions are you talking about? |
They committed multiple acts of cyber warfare against the United States in an attempt to disrupt our elections and the stability of our democracy. They are still doing it, per the FBI, CIA, Homeland Security and National Intelligence Agencies and they are doing so with malicious intent. And if we don't figure out a way to stop them, they will do it again.
They have also repeated this pattern all over Europe in an attempt to destabilize NATO and the European Alliance. They have admitted as much by who they have backed in each election.
And if you want to get an idea of how some of this might have played out, I suggest you google former CIA Director Brennan's testimony before congress yesterday where he speaks to how Russia tries to infiltrate and corrupt our institutions through cultivating relationships with American individuals, i.e. the Trump-Russia connection was real and the CIA was so alarmed at what they were seeing it triggered the subsequent FBI investigation. The CIA and FBI don't start full fledged investigations over nothing. |
Its not proven those cyber attacks came from the Russian Government, its suspicion and speculation. Anyone from anywhere in the world can use a Russian based address. the setup to paint the Russians as the bad guys is just too good to pass up. And how do they corrupt our institutions? Are they filling our schools with drugs or posting pictures of Lenin in our NY neighborhoods? They may try to gain influence to improve their relations with us, they may even try to get military information from us, but Israel, India and China do also, and in fact alot of countries try to gain military info from each other. And i'm certain we do the same thing with all of them. But they are not killing our soldiers, imprisoning US travelers, beating up our citizens, or bombing our neighborhoods.
And of course Trump has Russian connections, and they could very well be of the less than savory type. But those are of a personal - business type relation. I'm taking about Russian-US relations in general. I don't believe for one minute that this adversarial situation is in our best interest, unless you have a large stake in defense companies. |
Had to stop reading right there. |
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LakerSanity
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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A breakthrough occurred this weekend... my republican Trump supporting father told me that, at this point, knowing what he knows now, he would have voted for Bernie over Trump. However, he wouldn't have changed his vote assuming it was still Trump v. Hillary.
He doesn't like anything Bernie stands for except the money in politics platform and getting rid of the oligarchy, which for him (and I as well) takes priority over any policy issues. He also thinks none of what Bernie would want would ever happen anyway, so if we could fix the system of government first, that's enough for him. From a policy perspective, his largest disappointment with Trump is that Trump has not drained the swamp... otherwise, policy-wise, he's fine with Trump, just upset that Trump gets in his and the GOP's way.
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | A breakthrough occurred this weekend... my republican Trump supporting father told me that, at this point, knowing what he knows now, he would have voted for Bernie over Trump. However, he wouldn't have changed his vote assuming it was still Trump v. Hillary.
He doesn't like anything Bernie stands for except the money in politics platform and getting rid of the oligarchy, which for him (and I as well) takes priority over any policy issues. He also thinks none of what Bernie would want would ever happen anyway, so if we could fix the system of government first, that's enough for him. From a policy perspective, his largest disappointment with Trump is that Trump has not drained the swamp... otherwise, policy-wise, he's fine with Trump, just upset that Trump gets in his and the GOP's way. |
And yet he voted for a kleptocratic would be oligarch. That's the definition of saying you want to secure the henhouse by putting a fox in it.
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LakerSanity
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | A breakthrough occurred this weekend... my republican Trump supporting father told me that, at this point, knowing what he knows now, he would have voted for Bernie over Trump. However, he wouldn't have changed his vote assuming it was still Trump v. Hillary.
He doesn't like anything Bernie stands for except the money in politics platform and getting rid of the oligarchy, which for him (and I as well) takes priority over any policy issues. He also thinks none of what Bernie would want would ever happen anyway, so if we could fix the system of government first, that's enough for him. From a policy perspective, his largest disappointment with Trump is that Trump has not drained the swamp... otherwise, policy-wise, he's fine with Trump, just upset that Trump gets in his and the GOP's way. |
And yet he voted for a kleptocratic would be oligarch. That's the definition of saying you want to secure the henhouse by putting a fox in it. |
He thought of Hilary being just as much of a problem in that regard with the Clinton Foundation, among other reasons.
Listen, my father is the 70 year old+ demographic to a tee. Criticize him if you want, but I post these things not for that reason, but so that we can learn and figure out how to change minds. To get votes, the Dems need to adapt the common ground voting issues that the conservative swing voters will prioritize over the policy issues where they will always disagree. I think Bernie is on to something - get politics/money/corporations/the wealthy out of politics. I think even red voters would prioritize those issues over things like healthcare or education.
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Hector the Pup
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Location: L.A.
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | | Goldenwest wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | Goldenwest wrote: |
What Malicious Russian actions are you talking about? |
They committed multiple acts of cyber warfare against the United States in an attempt to disrupt our elections and the stability of our democracy. They are still doing it, per the FBI, CIA, Homeland Security and National Intelligence Agencies and they are doing so with malicious intent. And if we don't figure out a way to stop them, they will do it again.
They have also repeated this pattern all over Europe in an attempt to destabilize NATO and the European Alliance. They have admitted as much by who they have backed in each election.
And if you want to get an idea of how some of this might have played out, I suggest you google former CIA Director Brennan's testimony before congress yesterday where he speaks to how Russia tries to infiltrate and corrupt our institutions through cultivating relationships with American individuals, i.e. the Trump-Russia connection was real and the CIA was so alarmed at what they were seeing it triggered the subsequent FBI investigation. The CIA and FBI don't start full fledged investigations over nothing. |
Its not proven those cyber attacks came from the Russian Government, its suspicion and speculation. Anyone from anywhere in the world can use a Russian based address. the setup to paint the Russians as the bad guys is just too good to pass up. And how do they corrupt our institutions? Are they filling our schools with drugs or posting pictures of Lenin in our NY neighborhoods? They may try to gain influence to improve their relations with us, they may even try to get military information from us, but Israel, India and China do also, and in fact alot of countries try to gain military info from each other. And i'm certain we do the same thing with all of them. But they are not killing our soldiers, imprisoning US travelers, beating up our citizens, or bombing our neighborhoods.
And of course Trump has Russian connections, and they could very well be of the less than savory type. But those are of a personal - business type relation. I'm taking about Russian-US relations in general. I don't believe for one minute that this adversarial situation is in our best interest, unless you have a large stake in defense companies. |
Had to stop reading right there. |
There's no definitive proof. Just the fake news coming out of media outlets like FBI CIA nsa dia etc. Not to mention what macron said about rt and sputnik with Putin standing right next to him.
It's all lies comrade. Nothing to see here. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Cory Booker And Jared Kushner: Democrat Received Campaign Cash From Trump's Son-In-Law
So much for Booker. Now his recent comments about Kushner and Impeachment make more sense.
Have fun in the swamp Cory.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
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LakerSanity
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think its fatal for him. To be fair, Hillary received campaign donations from Trump. I'm sure others did too, and I'm sure others in the tri-state area received similar funds. The more high profile you are or were (which Booker was) the more you are going to get certain donations from high profile businesses/people.
Now, I don't like Booker and I think he's part of the swamp anyway... just saying this one fact doesn't necessarily lead me to that conclusion alone. Certainly adds to the reasons though.
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: |
I don't think its fatal for him. To be fair, Hillary received campaign donations from Trump. I'm sure others did too, and I'm sure others in the tri-state area received similar funds. The more high profile you are or were (which Booker was) the more you are going to get certain donations from high profile businesses/people.
Now, I don't like Booker and I think he's part of the swamp anyway... just saying this one fact doesn't necessarily lead me to that conclusion alone. Certainly adds to the reasons though. |
It's not the donations that are the issue. It's the behavior post-donations.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now
Last edited by DaMuleRules on Mon May 29, 2017 7:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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