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Omar Little
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 Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | tox wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | For tox and fanofbynum, most of the confederate monuments were not put up after the war, but rather much later, starting just before the turn of the century and into the 1920s. The largest purveyor of these monuments was the Daughters of the Confederacy, a very racist revisionist group that allied itself with the rise of the second KKK (which has the dubious honor of being even more violent than the first). They, along with the film Birth of a Nation, and other works such as the novel (and later film) Gone With The Wind, helped to create the concept of the Lost Cause, where the south was honorable and fighting for a just way of life, and slavery was a greater good (civilizing the savages).
This was the period of massive lynchings and the rise of Jim Crow, and most of these monuments were erectednat courthouses and public buildings and squares bith to perpetuate the myth and tondrive home the primacy of these folks. The monuments were put up in an explicitly white supremacist movement, and the concept spread outside the southern states. |
Thanks Omar. I'm trying to come up with a charitable interpretation of why people would support Confederate monuments (and leaders) that doesn't have to do with supporting the racist ideology it represents, and I can't think of any. This context just makes it worse. |
In fairness, there was a lot of romanticism of The Lost Cause to the point where you read things like, "they just want to preserve their culture", and, "they didn't fight for slavery (well, mostly, and not all of them)", and , "they are just remembering a time when they were and independent nation" from well-meaning people.
The problem is you can't separate the major elements of the culture from the culture, or the events from the history. We can no more celebrate the confederacy while excising the treason and the slavery than we can celebrate the third reich by excising the genocide and attack on other countries. But that's what has ultimately been done for a lot of people. |
Many Southerners are big on protecting their culture and way of life. Especially the area I used to live in, Acadiana, where the settlers were treated as criminals by the North and South. Slavery isn't something they celebrate. Food, clothing, the family structure, those are things they want to preserve. These Nazi groups do not reflect the typical Soutern native. Lumping them all into one stereotype is wrong. From my experience, the Klan was an underground group that the community shunned. |
That's fair, except the civil war and their way of life can't be a cherry pick, just like you can't celebrate Nazi Germany except for the genocide and war parts. Robert E Lee does not stand for how non racist southerners live their lives any more than Adolf Hitler stands for how non Nazi Germans live their lives.
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adkindo
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | Even as the White House is at extremely low approval ratings, the mid-terms is a numbers game where the the Democrats are almost certainly going to lose seats. As of today, the Republicans have a real chance at picking up enough seats to clear the 60 vote threshold.
http://cookpolitical.com/ratings/senate-race-ratings |
Ya. I think the Dems can gain seats in the House though. So that's the good news.
2018 impeachment! Then make all the GOP Senators vote. No more half ass denials and "distancing". And if they vote to keep Trump in office. They'll have to explain why to their constituencies. |
Maybe, I have honestly not kept up with expectations in the House, but it would have to be historical gains to even come close to regaining the majority. My guess is even if a strong trend in favor of the Democrats began soon, it would take at least two elections to take back majority. There is still a lot of "Everyone in Congress has to go, except my Congressman" mentality in this country. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | Even as the White House is at extremely low approval ratings, the mid-terms is a numbers game where the the Democrats are almost certainly going to lose seats. As of today, the Republicans have a real chance at picking up enough seats to clear the 60 vote threshold.
http://cookpolitical.com/ratings/senate-race-ratings |
Ya. I think the Dems can gain seats in the House though. So that's the good news.
2018 impeachment! Then make all the GOP Senators vote. No more half ass denials and "distancing". And if they vote to keep Trump in office. They'll have to explain why to their constituencies. |
Maybe, I have honestly not kept up with expectations in the House, but it would have to be historical gains to even come close to regaining the majority. My guess is even if a strong trend in favor of the Democrats began soon, it would take at least two elections to take back majority. There is still a lot of "Everyone in Congress has to go, except my Congressman" mentality in this country. |
There is also historically high amounts of safe gerrymandered districts, and the states and the AG are involved in a huge voter purge, so the Dems would have to get a landslide just to gain seats.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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Raijin
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Roon wrote: | Misdemeanors should be at the discretion of an authority, whether its a prosecutor or judge or what not.
I don't think someone should be deported because they were caught with an open container celebrating in a park for the 4th of July or got caught once with a couple pills of ecstasy or a joint in non-decriminalized states.
Multiple offenses sure, violent offense yeah okay. |
That seems reasonable
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adkindo
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | tox wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | For tox and fanofbynum, most of the confederate monuments were not put up after the war, but rather much later, starting just before the turn of the century and into the 1920s. The largest purveyor of these monuments was the Daughters of the Confederacy, a very racist revisionist group that allied itself with the rise of the second KKK (which has the dubious honor of being even more violent than the first). They, along with the film Birth of a Nation, and other works such as the novel (and later film) Gone With The Wind, helped to create the concept of the Lost Cause, where the south was honorable and fighting for a just way of life, and slavery was a greater good (civilizing the savages).
This was the period of massive lynchings and the rise of Jim Crow, and most of these monuments were erectednat courthouses and public buildings and squares bith to perpetuate the myth and tondrive home the primacy of these folks. The monuments were put up in an explicitly white supremacist movement, and the concept spread outside the southern states. |
Thanks Omar. I'm trying to come up with a charitable interpretation of why people would support Confederate monuments (and leaders) that doesn't have to do with supporting the racist ideology it represents, and I can't think of any. This context just makes it worse. |
In fairness, there was a lot of romanticism of The Lost Cause to the point where you read things like, "they just want to preserve their culture", and, "they didn't fight for slavery (well, mostly, and not all of them)", and , "they are just remembering a time when they were and independent nation" from well-meaning people.
The problem is you can't separate the major elements of the culture from the culture, or the events from the history. We can no more celebrate the confederacy while excising the treason and the slavery than we can celebrate the third reich by excising the genocide and attack on other countries. But that's what has ultimately been done for a lot of people. |
Many Southerners are big on protecting their culture and way of life. Especially the area I used to live in, Acadiana, where the settlers were treated as criminals by the North and South. Slavery isn't something they celebrate. Food, clothing, the family structure, those are things they want to preserve. These Nazi groups do not reflect the typical Soutern native. Lumping them all into one stereotype is wrong. From my experience, the Klan was an underground group that the community shunned. |
That's fair, except the civil war and their way of life can't be a cherry pick, just like you can't celebrate Nazi Germany except for the genocide and war parts. Robert E Lee does not stand for how non racist southerners live their lives any more than Adolf Hitler stands for how non Nazi Germans live their lives. |
Sure they can, lets be honest, we do this all the time. I have seen your posts often whitewashing the history of Socialism, cherry picking the examples you prefer to highlight. I mean if we really want to remove the stains of history, then the entire Democratic Party would be abolished as it has a repulsive history and has consistently been on the wrong side of history, but I notice you do not miss a chance to explain away that ugly past. It is not you, we all have a tendency to cherry pick the positive aspects of the groups we identify with today.
Those monuments should come down if the local citizens desire for them to be removed, and they should remain if that is their desire. It is not up to me or you to tell someone else what a monument means to them, nor is it our place to go into another community and tell them which monuments should stand in their community. I do not own a confederate flag, nor would I support any efforts to raise a monument that was offensive to others, but I also recognize it is not my place to go into another community and tell them which monuments should stand as I am confident they can reach those conclusions without my input, nor am I so insecure that it angers me if they make a different choice that I would have made. I would also not smear the entire population with baseless assumptions on why they made the choice they made in an effort to feel superior to them. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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http://tinyurl.com/y7f5cett
Wow 67% of Republicans agree with Trump's response to Charlottesville.
How big is the racist minority within the GOP?
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angrypuppy
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adkindo
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governator
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Wish we can see what would be the alternative with the old system pre-Obamacare if the cost increase would be faster or slower |
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angrypuppy
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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In other words, without federal subsidies, many Iowans will be without health insurance. Do you find that gratifying? Can the GOP devise a plan that actually provides comprehensive coverage without financially ruinous deductibles, that does not require federal subsidies? We haven't seen it yet, and frankly it defies the imagination.
It's easy to knock Obamacare, but it's weird on how the right wing attacks Obamacare without providing even a philosophical framework or model on how to tackle healthcare. Weirder yet, they even seem to take delight in healthcare becoming unaffordable. |
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angrypuppy
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Key Republican Calls for ‘Radical Changes’ in Trump’s Presidency
A Senate Republican who once considered joining Donald Trump’s administration called Thursday for “radical changes,” saying the president hasn’t yet demonstrated the characteristics needed to serve in his job.
“We’re at a point where there needs to be radical changes take place at the White House itself. It has to happen,” Senator Bob Corker told local reporters in his home state of Tennessee. “I think the president needs to take stock of the role that he plays in our nation and move beyond himself -- move way beyond himself -- and move to a place where daily he’s waking up thinking about what is best for the nation.”
Another Senate Republican, Tim Scott of South Carolina, said that Trump has compromised his moral authority with this response to the recent racial violence in Charlottesville, Virginia. “I’m not going to defend the indefensible,” Scott, the only African-American Republican in the Senate, told Vice News. “What we want to see from our president is clarity and moral authority. And that moral authority is compromised.”
Their remarks are some of the strongest Republican backlash to Trump’s suggestions that both sides bear blame in the Charlottesville incident. Several other Republicans have called on Trump to make a clearer denunciation of white supremacist groups, but many GOP leaders have remained silent on the president’s remarks. |
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-17/key-republican-calls-for-radical-changes-in-trump-s-presidency |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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POLL: Most Voters Want Confederate Statues To Remain
| Quote: | | The NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist poll asked voters if Confederate statues should remain or be removed. Sixty-two percent of the poll’s participants said that the statues should remain. Only 27 percent of the participants believe the statues should be removed. |
http://dailycaller.com/2017/08/17/poll-most-voters-want-confederate-statues-to-remain/
even the Robert E. Lee monument in Charlottesville....
| Quote: | | Forty-eight percent of Americans polled either strongly or somewhat disapprove of the removal of the statue that was at the center of violence in Charlottesville last weekend, where a member of a white supremacist group drove his car through a crowd of counterprotesters, killing one and injuring 19. Only 30 percent approve of removal. Twenty-two percent expressed no opinion. |
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/17/16161366/poll-charlottesvilles-robert-e-lee-statue |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Medica attributed the additional increase to uncertainties over federal health care subsidies, the insurer said in a release.
President Donald Trump has threatened to stop payments from an important part of Obamacare known as the “cost-sharing reduction.” |
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"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: |
| Quote: | Medica attributed the additional increase to uncertainties over federal health care subsidies, the insurer said in a release.
President Donald Trump has threatened to stop payments from an important part of Obamacare known as the “cost-sharing reduction.” |
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yeah, originally, it was a very small 43% increase. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | POLL: Most Voters Want Confederate Statues To Remain
| Quote: | | The NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist poll asked voters if Confederate statues should remain or be removed. Sixty-two percent of the poll’s participants said that the statues should remain. Only 27 percent of the participants believe the statues should be removed. |
http://dailycaller.com/2017/08/17/poll-most-voters-want-confederate-statues-to-remain/
even the Robert E. Lee monument in Charlottesville....
| Quote: | | Forty-eight percent of Americans polled either strongly or somewhat disapprove of the removal of the statue that was at the center of violence in Charlottesville last weekend, where a member of a white supremacist group drove his car through a crowd of counterprotesters, killing one and injuring 19. Only 30 percent approve of removal. Twenty-two percent expressed no opinion. |
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/17/16161366/poll-charlottesvilles-robert-e-lee-statue |
The locals wanted the Lee statue removed. So it was removed. Other cities are following as well. If the 62% in the poll want to build their own statue in a given local area. It's their right.
But something tells me 62% doesn't want to build confederate statues.
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"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | kikanga wrote: |
| Quote: | Medica attributed the additional increase to uncertainties over federal health care subsidies, the insurer said in a release.
President Donald Trump has threatened to stop payments from an important part of Obamacare known as the “cost-sharing reduction.” |
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yeah, originally, it was a very small 43% increase. |
| Quote: | | The underlying problem in Iowa is one that has plagued many other markets and insurers ever since the Affordable Care Act took effect and rewrote the rules for coverage. No longer able to deny coverage or charge higher premiums to people with pre-existing conditions, insurers have struggled to cover their costs ― mostly because they have attracted more people with big medical bills, and fewer people in good health, than they anticipated when they initially set premiums. |
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/iowa-obamacare-markets-could-lose-last-insurer_us_590a33c4e4b02655f843cb62
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splashmtn
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Posts: 3961
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | tox wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | For tox and fanofbynum, most of the confederate monuments were not put up after the war, but rather much later, starting just before the turn of the century and into the 1920s. The largest purveyor of these monuments was the Daughters of the Confederacy, a very racist revisionist group that allied itself with the rise of the second KKK (which has the dubious honor of being even more violent than the first). They, along with the film Birth of a Nation, and other works such as the novel (and later film) Gone With The Wind, helped to create the concept of the Lost Cause, where the south was honorable and fighting for a just way of life, and slavery was a greater good (civilizing the savages).
This was the period of massive lynchings and the rise of Jim Crow, and most of these monuments were erectednat courthouses and public buildings and squares bith to perpetuate the myth and tondrive home the primacy of these folks. The monuments were put up in an explicitly white supremacist movement, and the concept spread outside the southern states. |
Thanks Omar. I'm trying to come up with a charitable interpretation of why people would support Confederate monuments (and leaders) that doesn't have to do with supporting the racist ideology it represents, and I can't think of any. This context just makes it worse. |
In fairness, there was a lot of romanticism of The Lost Cause to the point where you read things like, "they just want to preserve their culture", and, "they didn't fight for slavery (well, mostly, and not all of them)", and , "they are just remembering a time when they were and independent nation" from well-meaning people.
The problem is you can't separate the major elements of the culture from the culture, or the events from the history. We can no more celebrate the confederacy while excising the treason and the slavery than we can celebrate the third reich by excising the genocide and attack on other countries. But that's what has ultimately been done for a lot of people. |
Many Southerners are big on protecting their culture and way of life. Especially the area I used to live in, Acadiana, where the settlers were treated as criminals by the North and South. Slavery isn't something they celebrate. Food, clothing, the family structure, those are things they want to preserve. These Nazi groups do not reflect the typical Soutern native. Lumping them all into one stereotype is wrong. From my experience, the Klan was an underground group that the community shunned. |
As of what year? |
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kikanga
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | kikanga wrote: |
| Quote: | Medica attributed the additional increase to uncertainties over federal health care subsidies, the insurer said in a release.
President Donald Trump has threatened to stop payments from an important part of Obamacare known as the “cost-sharing reduction.” |
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yeah, originally, it was a very small 43% increase. |
| Quote: | | The underlying problem in Iowa is one that has plagued many other markets and insurers ever since the Affordable Care Act took effect and rewrote the rules for coverage. No longer able to deny coverage or charge higher premiums to people with pre-existing conditions, insurers have struggled to cover their costs ― mostly because they have attracted more people with big medical bills, and fewer people in good health, than they anticipated when they initially set premiums. |
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/iowa-obamacare-markets-could-lose-last-insurer_us_590a33c4e4b02655f843cb62 |
and this is all due to the fact that republicans dont like to be Taxed or penalized for not having healthcoverage.
truth is. You have to. You need to add a Penalty as High as the lowest Copper Plan on the exchange. In that way they will either be paying that amt which is enough to sustain the system for all. OR they will pay that much and get some insurance.
This "i shouldnt have to buy insurance" is nonsense. because the moment an accident happens you will rush to call 911, then rush to an ambulance, then be rushed to the ER. where taxpayers have to carry your load, especially if you are a broke person or someone who will never be able to pay off a 50k medical bill. that can easily occur if you get into a good enough accident or something happens to you where you need to be in the hospital for awhile.
Its either going to be you Pay like the rest of us. Or you can't call the ambulance without insurance, you can't go into ER without insurance. but truth is we can't do that. that isnt safe, lets not even talk about how unethical it is. its unsafe due to the fact someone or someones could have who knows what disease or virus. and if they can't go to the doctor. they will continue to carry and spread it. infecting the rest of us. no thanks.
so you have one option. pay the find thats the cost of the lowest plan. or buy into the plan. |
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governator
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | POLL: Most Voters Want Confederate Statues To Remain
| Quote: | | The NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist poll asked voters if Confederate statues should remain or be removed. Sixty-two percent of the poll’s participants said that the statues should remain. Only 27 percent of the participants believe the statues should be removed. |
http://dailycaller.com/2017/08/17/poll-most-voters-want-confederate-statues-to-remain/
even the Robert E. Lee monument in Charlottesville....
| Quote: | | Forty-eight percent of Americans polled either strongly or somewhat disapprove of the removal of the statue that was at the center of violence in Charlottesville last weekend, where a member of a white supremacist group drove his car through a crowd of counterprotesters, killing one and injuring 19. Only 30 percent approve of removal. Twenty-two percent expressed no opinion. |
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/17/16161366/poll-charlottesvilles-robert-e-lee-statue |
The locals wanted the Lee statue removed. So it was removed. Other cities are following as well. If the 62% in the poll want to build their own statue in a given local area. It's their right.
But something tells me 62% doesn't want to build confederate statues. |
I think Adkindo actually agrees with you in this matter:
| adkindo wrote: |
Those monuments should come down if the local citizens desire for them to be removed, and they should remain if that is their desire. It is not up to me or you to tell someone else what a monument means to them, nor is it our place to go into another community and tell them which monuments should stand in their community. I do not own a confederate flag, nor would I support any efforts to raise a monument that was offensive to others, but I also recognize it is not my place to go into another community and tell them which monuments should stand as I am confident they can reach those conclusions without my input, nor am I so insecure that it angers me if they make a different choice that I would have made. I would also not smear the entire population with baseless assumptions on why they made the choice they made in an effort to feel superior to them. |
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splashmtn
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Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Posts: 3961
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | tox wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | For tox and fanofbynum, most of the confederate monuments were not put up after the war, but rather much later, starting just before the turn of the century and into the 1920s. The largest purveyor of these monuments was the Daughters of the Confederacy, a very racist revisionist group that allied itself with the rise of the second KKK (which has the dubious honor of being even more violent than the first). They, along with the film Birth of a Nation, and other works such as the novel (and later film) Gone With The Wind, helped to create the concept of the Lost Cause, where the south was honorable and fighting for a just way of life, and slavery was a greater good (civilizing the savages).
This was the period of massive lynchings and the rise of Jim Crow, and most of these monuments were erectednat courthouses and public buildings and squares bith to perpetuate the myth and tondrive home the primacy of these folks. The monuments were put up in an explicitly white supremacist movement, and the concept spread outside the southern states. |
Thanks Omar. I'm trying to come up with a charitable interpretation of why people would support Confederate monuments (and leaders) that doesn't have to do with supporting the racist ideology it represents, and I can't think of any. This context just makes it worse. |
In fairness, there was a lot of romanticism of The Lost Cause to the point where you read things like, "they just want to preserve their culture", and, "they didn't fight for slavery (well, mostly, and not all of them)", and , "they are just remembering a time when they were and independent nation" from well-meaning people.
The problem is you can't separate the major elements of the culture from the culture, or the events from the history. We can no more celebrate the confederacy while excising the treason and the slavery than we can celebrate the third reich by excising the genocide and attack on other countries. But that's what has ultimately been done for a lot of people. |
Many Southerners are big on protecting their culture and way of life. Especially the area I used to live in, Acadiana, where the settlers were treated as criminals by the North and South. Slavery isn't something they celebrate. Food, clothing, the family structure, those are things they want to preserve. These Nazi groups do not reflect the typical Soutern native. Lumping them all into one stereotype is wrong. From my experience, the Klan was an underground group that the community shunned. |
That's fair, except the civil war and their way of life can't be a cherry pick, just like you can't celebrate Nazi Germany except for the genocide and war parts. Robert E Lee does not stand for how non racist southerners live their lives any more than Adolf Hitler stands for how non Nazi Germans live their lives. |
....
Those monuments should come down if the local citizens desire for them to be removed, and they should remain if that is their desire. ... |
lets play this game.
there's a town with a general Lee statue in the park.
There are 10 citizens in the town.
8 are white, 1 is black, and 1 is latin
6 of the 8 whites say DONT you touch my General lee statue
The remaining 4 people ( 2 whites, 1 black and one latin) says take that nonsense DOWN tonight.
And remember there is one person in that group..the 1 black person who's ancestors had to suffer the most pain due to the Lee and those like lee and those that agreed with lee.
Should it be taken down or not? |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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I SMH in wonder. Does Donald really believe this. It's been debunked time and time again.
Watching, listening to Trump causes me to question his mental state. It's never been done in our history but his actions leads me to ask, can his mental status be questioned and action taken? I believe it's time for a Rorschach test.
Trump's tweet about General Pershing, pig's blood and Islamic extremism is pure bologna
LINK
| Quote: | | “He took the 50 terrorists, and he took 50 men and he dipped 50 bullets in pigs’ blood -- you heard that, right? He took 50 bullets, and he dipped them in pigs’ blood. And he had his men load his rifles, and he lined up the 50 people, and they shot 49 of those people. And the 50th person, he said: You go back to your people, and you tell them what happened. And for 25 years, there wasn’t a problem. Okay? Twenty-five years, there wasn’t a problem.” |
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adkindo
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Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 40345
Location: Dirty South
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| splashmtn wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | tox wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | For tox and fanofbynum, most of the confederate monuments were not put up after the war, but rather much later, starting just before the turn of the century and into the 1920s. The largest purveyor of these monuments was the Daughters of the Confederacy, a very racist revisionist group that allied itself with the rise of the second KKK (which has the dubious honor of being even more violent than the first). They, along with the film Birth of a Nation, and other works such as the novel (and later film) Gone With The Wind, helped to create the concept of the Lost Cause, where the south was honorable and fighting for a just way of life, and slavery was a greater good (civilizing the savages).
This was the period of massive lynchings and the rise of Jim Crow, and most of these monuments were erectednat courthouses and public buildings and squares bith to perpetuate the myth and tondrive home the primacy of these folks. The monuments were put up in an explicitly white supremacist movement, and the concept spread outside the southern states. |
Thanks Omar. I'm trying to come up with a charitable interpretation of why people would support Confederate monuments (and leaders) that doesn't have to do with supporting the racist ideology it represents, and I can't think of any. This context just makes it worse. |
In fairness, there was a lot of romanticism of The Lost Cause to the point where you read things like, "they just want to preserve their culture", and, "they didn't fight for slavery (well, mostly, and not all of them)", and , "they are just remembering a time when they were and independent nation" from well-meaning people.
The problem is you can't separate the major elements of the culture from the culture, or the events from the history. We can no more celebrate the confederacy while excising the treason and the slavery than we can celebrate the third reich by excising the genocide and attack on other countries. But that's what has ultimately been done for a lot of people. |
Many Southerners are big on protecting their culture and way of life. Especially the area I used to live in, Acadiana, where the settlers were treated as criminals by the North and South. Slavery isn't something they celebrate. Food, clothing, the family structure, those are things they want to preserve. These Nazi groups do not reflect the typical Soutern native. Lumping them all into one stereotype is wrong. From my experience, the Klan was an underground group that the community shunned. |
That's fair, except the civil war and their way of life can't be a cherry pick, just like you can't celebrate Nazi Germany except for the genocide and war parts. Robert E Lee does not stand for how non racist southerners live their lives any more than Adolf Hitler stands for how non Nazi Germans live their lives. |
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Those monuments should come down if the local citizens desire for them to be removed, and they should remain if that is their desire. ... |
lets play this game.
there's a town with a general Lee statue in the park.
There are 10 citizens in the town.
8 are white, 1 is black, and 1 is latin
6 of the 8 whites say DONT you touch my General lee statue
The remaining 4 people ( 2 whites, 1 black and one latin) says take that nonsense DOWN tonight.
And remember there is one person in that group..the 1 black person who's ancestors had to suffer the most pain due to the Lee and those like lee and those that agreed with lee.
Should it be taken down or not? |
it took me a second because I kept picturing a statue of an orange car and wondering why anyone would make that statue.....but in your example, I think you are saying 60% of the citizens desire to keep the monument, while 40% desire to remove the monument? And these numbers would be reflected in their representative government (City Counsel)? The answer is it should not be removed. |
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Hector the Pup
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Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 35946
Location: L.A.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | I SMH in wonder. Does Donald really believe this. It's been debunked time and time again.
Watching, listening to Trump causes me to question his mental state. It's never been done in our history but his actions leads me to ask, can his mental status be questioned and action taken? I believe it's time for a Rorschach test.
Trump's tweet about General Pershing, pig's blood and Islamic extremism is pure bologna
LINK
| Quote: | | “He took the 50 terrorists, and he took 50 men and he dipped 50 bullets in pigs’ blood -- you heard that, right? He took 50 bullets, and he dipped them in pigs’ blood. And he had his men load his rifles, and he lined up the 50 people, and they shot 49 of those people. And the 50th person, he said: You go back to your people, and you tell them what happened. And for 25 years, there wasn’t a problem. Okay? Twenty-five years, there wasn’t a problem.” |
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Of course it is. It was the first time he said it when he was on the campaign trail.
But sometimes you have to play the hits. It's what the crowd wants to hear. |
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kikanga
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Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29331
Location: La La Land
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: |
it took me a second because I kept picturing a statue of an orange car and wondering why anyone would make that statue.....but in your example, I think you are saying 60% of the citizens desire to keep the monument, while 40% desire to remove the monument? And these numbers would be reflected in their representative government (City Counsel)? The answer is it should not be removed. |
And if south central Los Angeles wants to build a statue honoring the man who shot Reagan? If the majority says it's cool. Then it's fine with you right?
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